HL2 to linux petition

[asd]

gabe got his millions from microsoft. why should he produce a linux product? but i hope he do.

 

[FatCombine]

Well, if you want a Linux port by september/november, you would probably have to wait a little while. But I really doubt Valve would spend time on this, like other people said, it's a bad marketing decision. Plus, only about 5% of all petitions in the game world actually did some good, but hey, it's worth a try.

Ok, I'm done. This thread is WAY too hot to handle.

* FatCombine dips his hands into a bucket of ice.

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by etanol
Ok everyone who don't know how to use Linux don't comment - you just don't know what you are talking about.

Words of widsom, to be sure.

 

[kelisis]

BTW, I am wondering what is the best emulater for linux are whatever to play Windows games?

 

[smilez]

If they are going to make a linux release they might as well make a mac OS X version.. mac's now are 64 bit and have an ati 9800 pro with upto 8gb of ram

 

[DeBaan]

Originally posted by krarg
I think it's funny how everybody who wants to try arguing that Linux is better than Windows

the point of My post, at least, was not to argue the vague point that "linux is better". Any honest, *good* sys/net admin will agree that you should just use the best tool for any given job. Windows sucked -- Period -- until win2k came out. That's why it's hard to get serious pros to look at it in some cases. That's why this particular "religious" battle has such a great history.

I remember on the old altavista (like, 6+ years ago) Microsoft advertising that NT 3.51 server was "more scalable, secure, and stable than unix." Anybody that wasn't either MS sales/marketing, or a corporate exec. that bought into it, knew that this claim was a load. The problem is, the "suits" listened to the sales and marketing of the redmond behemoth. 'They tell me it's more secure, so it MUST be.'

Mainframes were 'da bomb', and still are in many ways, for stability and security.

Novell Netware had, for years (and probably still does), the absolute bullet-proof PC file and printer sharing, and directory services. Novell marketing never competed with MS marketing, though -- they assumed that the suits would make decisions based on actual technical facts, not on salespeoples' empty statements. Oops.

The various unixes have dominated educational, corporate, engineering, and isp/web/email/database back-ends for a long time, and are quite hardened as a result. They are also in use as major telecom, high-volume-computing, and other highly specialized OSes.

Linux has the press, and has major support from ibm, dell, and certain other major players, and has incarnations for massively parallel computation, engineering design station, home/personal use, isp / service providers, and even embedded applications. So, in many ways, it's also probably the most flexible os right now. (an app that I compile for my athlon-xp desktop can also be compiled for my zaurus palm-top with few or no changes to the source -- totally different from the vague core relationship between win2k3 server/winXP/WinCE/PocketPC. Linux also compiles on x86, x86-64, intel-64, sparc, sparc-ultra, sparc64, alpha, tru64, powerpc (also used in high-end ibm servers), arm (embedded apps), and dozens of other hardware architectures. Very flexible.

Graphic artists have for over a decade sworn by Macs for their applications. And now I believe that they may be useful for a host of other things, given what they've got under the hood now, and a native default ip stack.

Half-Life 2 will apparently only run on a windows machine. So, there's a decent chance I won't buy it. Certainly not before it comes down to $20. Sorry valve. I'm the customer, and you're not meeting my requirement.

So, again, you use the best tool for any given job.

However, it doesn't speak well of the technical merits of an OS that is the best tool for "pc games" and little else.

I've not yet used win2k3 server. I'm experimenting right now to see the viability of linux as an active-directory/authentication server replacement. (lots of people use it for that; I just need to see if the gui tools will be easy enough for my clients to use.)

It's better as a server, not as an all-around desktop OS.

define "all-around desktop OS". If you mean word-processing and stuff -- well, Mandrake linux is pretty dang good. Most stuff works out of the box with it. And anyone who installs win2k, winxp, and mandrake linux on a regular basis will likely agree that mandrake linux is no harder to install than the others. It's also equally easy to use for general stuff. I use Win2k Pro, win2k server, winxp pro (and formerly home), gentoo linux, mandrake linux, and embedix (an embedded linux that is the OS on my palm computer), and they're each good for different things. They each also have their idiosyncrasies. However, my linux box only has to be rebooted when I rebuild the kernel and want to try it out, which only happens when I feel like playing with it.

OpenGL has worked well on linux for years. (remember, SGI developed it. They're also now a major proponent of linux. SGI co-developed fireGL with MS, too.) So I don't buy that it's not a viable gaming platform. Else, why would the linux half-life community be substantial? (thousands, not millions, though.) And why are quake 2/3/4 and doom 1/2/3, and ut2k3 all written such that they may easily be ported to linux? The only time i've played (and beat) doom was on a silicon graphics unix (irix) box, and that was 5-6 years ago.

The only reason HL2 isn't being written to make for easy linux support is because of the choice of development tools and libraries of the HL2 development team, combined with the wills of their 'suits'. But shame on Valve for not using any of a number of multi-platform toolkits to develop HL2. I really don't know that directx is actually the best tool for the job.

Just use whatever's the best tool for any given job. And be honest about it.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Originally posted by DeBaan
The only reason HL2 isn't being written to make for easy linux support is because of the choice of development tools and libraries of the HL2 development team, combined with the wills of their 'suits'. But shame on Valve for not using any of a number of multi-platform toolkits to develop HL2. I really don't know that directx is actually the best tool for the job.

Just use whatever's the best tool for any given job. And be honest about it.

a few interesting things in there and overall informative post there.. i enjoyed it

as for the last bit of ur post there that im quoting, i agree.. we live in an era where theres always new stuff everywhere u look and not everyone is going to use/like/want the same thing.. and for a company/companies to cater to the needs of a particular O/S more so than other O/S is really being narrow minded, especially in a business sense. things change, minds change, thinking changes.. and if pple looked at other O/S in this view, maybe we would have better O/S's, games and applications out now.


yes, we know the statistics.. only 10-15% of the world uses Linux or other O/S's besides Windows but slow down here a minute and look back thru this thread... see all the pple that use/support Linux and other O/S's? surely the population of non-Windows based O/S is growing and will continue to... if u think otherwise, ur naive, narrow minded.. whatever

i don't even want to get into the whole "which O/S is more secure" debate considering what we have seen in the past few weeks with all the Windows virus stuff going around.. ya, i know that Linux probably has some virus problems too, but not to this extreme.. i don't care if u present the "but Windows is going to have more extreme problems cause it has a wider user following" well then, MS should build a more secure O/S, shouldn't they?

MHO: if companies continue to avoid non-Windows based versions of games/applications, they will/are only shooting themselves in the foot... its my belief that every Windows user out there already knows what he/she is getting with Windows and it couldn't kill to find out what the other side of that fence is like.. be it today, tomorrow, next year or some time later.. its only a matter of time before pple get tired of Windows O/S unstability and try something new.

 

[Gunner]

Here is why everyone should go with Linux according to zakl:

LOL...idiots...P W N D!!!...n00bs...n00b...Linux is the bomb...n00bs

 

[Dr. Freeman]

hmm.. after i submitted my post, i thought "damn maybe i should create another thread about O/S's and how they would/could be if companies were not so narrow minded about games and applications"


it feels weird quoting myself but talking about change and how it would/could affect end users is interesting...

Originally posted by Dr. Freeman
company/companies to cater to the needs of a particular O/S more so than other O/S is really being narrow minded, especially in a business sense. things change, minds change, thinking changes.. and if pple looked at other O/S in this view, maybe we would have better O/S's, games and applications out now.

i'd be willing to create another thread if pple want some intelligent conversation on O/S's and how they would affect us if computers were not so MS dominated.

opinions?

 

[Lindset]

Originally posted by )[eVo]( Para
Here is why everyone should go with Linux according to zakl:

LOL...idiots...P W N D!!!...n00bs...n00b...Linux is the bomb...n00bs

jesus christ we saw your last post, no need to repeat yourself.. why don't you contribute with a quality post instead?

 

[Nuclear_Gerber]

nice idea.
and windows emulator for linux sux.

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Mountain Man
Look, if you've never used Linux just say so, but this whole pretending you know what you're talking about while simultaneously proving that you don't isn't really going to fly. [/B]

lol! whatever

I used it for 4 years at uni.

UI = user interface (eg. console)
GUI = graphical user interface (eg. KDE, AfterStep etc.)

that is the difference.

Points of note about linux:

1) having to compilie downloaded software (!)
2) terrible copy&paste support, limited support from apps
3) extendible GUI? lol, try right-clicking a file and clicking "add to zip" like you can in windows
4) drag&drop, again i laugh - this is non existant
5) editing system settings from GUI - limited, most advanced settings must revert to using console

Now, I will openly admit its been a few years since i used it. But as far as I am aware it hasn't changed that much.

Secondly, don't write me a long list of all the things it does better... I know it does a lot (in fact a hell of a lot) of things better. My original point was always that Linux is no good for beginners and I have no idea why people flame me. I thought that much was obvious and any real linux user would freely admit it.

 

[Shirow-DG]

1) having to compilie downloaded software (!)

You don't have to, unless you download the source. Most of the 'newbie' linux flavors always have binaries available.

In Debian, you can use 'dselect' to download any software without compiling anything - and it even installs all the softwares depedencies without you having to. Ever had to copy *.dll into your system folder to run a piece of software in Windows?

2) terrible copy&paste support, limited support from apps

Copy and paste works just fine for me.

3) extendible GUI? lol, try right-clicking a file and clicking "add to zip" like you can in windows

If having an 'add to zip' option is what really matters to you, sure, go with Windows

4) drag&drop, again i laugh - this is non existant

Don't even want to comment on this one..

5) editing system settings from GUI - limited, most advanced settings must revert to using console

Editing the registry through Windows isn't exactly easy. You still have to manually (through a text box) edit the strings. The fact that there's a little GUI box for you to type into doesn't really make it any easier.

 

[DjBourgeoisie]

Originally posted by Sat
You can sign this petition to ask valve to do the HL2 port for linux and/or release the HL source code.

http://cgi.riblet.plus.com/index.php

P.S: I don't know if it has already been posted but it doesn't seems so..

I hope they DONT release the source code, thats one of the reasons hl mods are all hacked with cheaters galore. Hopefully the sdk is complete enough they wont need to. With what I have read, saw, and heard, there should be plenty of goodies to work with. I love hl and its mods, but I do not want to see the cheaters overrun hl2, catch my drift? :cheers:

 

[Slash]

The HL2 source code won't be released.

And porting sounds like a pain in the ass. They would have to port all the Steam client stuff too. Sounds like a lot of work. Have Gearbox do it

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Shirow-DG
(1)You don't have to, unless you download the source. Most of the 'newbie' linux flavors always have binaries available.

In Debian, you can use 'dselect' to download any software without compiling anything - and it even installs all the softwares depedencies without you having to. Ever had to copy *.dll into your system folder to run a piece of software in Windows?

(2) Copy and paste works just fine for me.

(3) If having an 'add to zip' option is what really matters to you, sure, go with Windows

(4) Don't even want to comment on this one..

(5) Editing the registry through Windows isn't exactly easy. You still have to manually (through a text box) edit the strings. The fact that there's a little GUI box for you to type into doesn't really make it any easier.

1) ok, i'll admit when i'm wrong. I seem to remember I used to have to compile things but that was a while ago now.

2) yes, if your copying text. What about pictures, audio, video?

3) No, but it matters to beginners which if you recall was my point?

4) I plug in my camera, double-click My Computer and there it is, drag&drop the files to a folder on my hard disk and up pop the thumbnails. Easy for beginners. You failed to comment, ?

5) 99.9% of the important system settings can be changed in some nice GUI without digging into the registry. This is a lot harder in Linux, at least that was always the case when i used KDE. Again, windows good for beginners.

I have bolded all the beginners because I am not slagging Linux as a whole. I am just trying to point out it is not the absolute best for everyone.

damn (wesley snipes style)

 

[DeBaan]

point well taken about the camera. unfortunately, most hardware manufacturers have done little to help.

Originally posted by MrD
5) 99.9% of the important system settings can be changed in some nice GUI without digging into the registry.

...which was your point -- .1% is still too much for "beginners". imo, the registry is the worst "feature" of windows. makes transferring/transporting profiles, apps, etc., in a multi-user, multi-system environment a real pain. and hope that registry doesn't get corrupted.

....of course, ppl screwing with their registries is what helps pay my bills.

This is a lot harder in Linux, at least that was always the case when i used KDE.

when I used mandrake linux 3 years ago, the gui tools were still all there. Heck, even before that, there was linuxconf, which, though not perfect, is enough to do the basic configuring that most beginners would have to face anyway.

I think you're confusing "new to computers" with "new to linux".

Mandrake is great for beginners. For anybody that's *truly* a beginner to computers, it should be just as easy as windows. (certainly as easy as winnt or win2k, or mac -- so said a cnet or zdnet review a couple years ago, written by a non-linux user.)

If someone has used windows all their life and then they get put in front of a linux box, of course there will be a learning curve. duh. The same thing is true going the other way.

If someone has never used a computer before, they will find windows and linux equally cryptic. What you're forgetting is that windows users have adjusted to, and learned to accept/tolerate the idiosyncrasies of windows. (reboot often -- any time you install new hardware, change network settings, etc., up untill win2k; expect viruses; expect to go searching for drivers; if you have a dell, compaq, or ibm, but lost the original media with the nic/modem drivers, you're kinda screwed, etc.)

Note that those are the same complaints mac users have always had about windows.

Not all distributions of linux are focussed towards the "new to linux" crowd.

But then again, (to me) linux and free (as in beer or source) software are all about *choice*. I can use whatever distribution I want, based on my needs -- a firewall distro that runs on a 386 with only 4MB ram and a floppy disk drive, or an athlon-XP with 1GB ram as a host OS for my vmware+testing_environment of 4 other virtual machines, + web, smtp, pop, imap, dns, mysql, ldap, ssh, vpn servers, wireless access point, hids, nids, etc, and pc gaming machine.

I have bolded all the beginners because I am not slagging Linux as a whole. I am just trying to point out it is not the absolute best for everyone.

Use the best tool for any given job. However, the argument that "windows is better for beginners" is a bunch of *bunk*. If windows were, I would be out of work. WinME keeps me in business :-D, and the others pay my bills.

No one tool is the best for every problem.

btw, nobody ever responds to my point that if linux sucked so bad for gaming, then quake2, quake3, and quake4, doom2, doom3, and unrealt2k3 etc. would niether be ported to linux or be fun to play on it.

It goes back to valve's lousy choice of development toolkits, not the merits of the OS. It wouldn't cost much to port, if they'd used the proper tools.

 

[Shirow-DG]

I have bolded all the beginners because I am not slagging Linux as a whole. I am just trying to point out it is not the absolute best for everyone.

I guess it isn't, but the dragging/dropping, My Computer stuff - it seems easy beause you know how to do it. If someone didn't know how to use Windows, it's not like that would be an obvious way to do it, or even an intuitive way to do it.

Mandrake, or even *shiver* Lindows is just as easy, if you're learning from scratch, IMO.

 

[etanol]

Someone above said that if Valve release the source code the game will be all hacked(lot's of cheat) like HL is now?

Dude - do you even know how todays cheat works? Think not. They don't need or in fact I don't even think they use the sourcecode to make their cheats(hooks and stuff that it is mostly). AND the HL engine is OLD, and not as well build as we all would like it to be.

And now offtopic again.

When some of you say that linux is har to use and bla bla etc.. Have you ever thougth of what you would say if the firs OS you got hold of was infact a linux dist and not Windows? Now don't you think that when you putt your ass on a win comp after been raised whit linux would make you go "ohh no what is this? don't understand - better hate it."

Think of it.

 

[DjBourgeoisie]

Originally posted by etanol
Someone above said that if Valve release the source code the game will be all hacked(lot's of cheat) like HL is now?

Dude - do you even know how todays cheat works? Think not. They don't need or in fact I don't even think they use the sourcecode to make their cheats(hooks and stuff that it is mostly). AND the HL engine is OLD, and not as well build as we all would like it to be.

Ya I said that because while it doesnt totally prevent cheats, it does make it harder for the game to be hacked. If you just give the source code, you basically give anyone with programming knowledge the ability to do whatever they want. By not having the source code they are limited in what they can do.

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by DeBaan & Shirow-DG
If someone didn't know how to use Windows, it's not like that would be an obvious way to do it, or even an intuitive way to do it.

etc.

Okay, i can accept when i'm wrong

Never really thought of it this way round, my error is looking at things from the perspective of some-one who learned Windows before Linux.

Perhaps. Although from the perspective of the teacher (and given that 99% of the population are stupid) I think I would rather attempt to teach the drag&drop way of doing things ??

 

[Shirow-DG]

Perhaps. Although from the perspective of the teacher (and given that 99% of the population are stupid) I think I would rather attempt to teach the drag&drop way of doing things ??

Well, that's true to a point.. BUT... if I was a teacher, I'd rather teach my students how to use a computer properly, and not just how to 'get things done'. It's the 'it works, so let's do it' route that's caused half the Internet to lag to hell and back because of Welchia, SoBig, Blaster and everything else

But that's another argument for another day.

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Shirow-DG
Well, that's true to a point.. BUT... if I was a teacher, I'd rather teach my students how to use a computer properly, and not just how to 'get things done'. It's the 'it works, so let's do it' route that's caused half the Internet to lag to hell and back because of Welchia, SoBig, Blaster and everything else

But that's another argument for another day.

Cool, I agree again ...

so forget I just said anything in the first place

 

[Ahnteis]

No thanks.

It would be a great opportunity for LINUX, not Valve.

 

[etanol]

Todays cheats hook the dll's mostly, so it has nothing to do with the source code.

 

[Shirow-DG]

Cool, I agree again ...

so forget I just said anything in the first place

Hehe.. I'm glad you had the balls to say that

I don't think your points are without merit. In a world where all the mechanics you know can fix a Ford, why drive a Toyota?

Well, the Toyota runs twice as long, uses half as much gas and goes twice as fast.. but if you don't know how to fix it when it breaks, it's not much fun.

I understand where you're coming from, totally - I just think it's sad Windows is where it is today, because it's not through innovation, quality of product or even price.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Originally posted by MrD
Cool, I agree again ...

so forget I just said anything in the first place

well well, at least we have some pple with a good head on their shoulders


u have good points, but like others have mentioned if u look through a very neutral point of view, some of Linux's versions are just as beginner friendly as Windows.. and i am a pretty good example of that..

i am a complete Linux noob, but i managed to install Mandrake once when my friend's college grades counted on it! :thumbs:


/me thinks again of creating a thread about O/S's and how they effective they would be if companies were more open minded

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by kelisis
BTW, I am wondering what is the best emulater for linux are whatever to play Windows games?

WineX from Transgaming.com, though you have to pay for it.

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by MrD
Now, I will openly admit its been a few years since i used it. But as far as I am aware it hasn't changed that much.

I skipped all the other stuff to get right to the point: If you haven't used Linux in a few years, that's almost as good as not having used Linux. The community has made a lot of improvements making your list largely irrelevant.

My original point was always that Linux is no good for beginners and I have no idea why people flame me. I thought that much was obvious and any real linux user would freely admit it.

Nobody's flaming you. It's just no fun watching somebody go on and on about something they're uninformed about.

Many of the new distros are at least as easy to use and install as Windows. Mandrake in particular has made some very great strides in this regard. Suse is another notable distro. The biggest problem at this point is the average user doesn't recognize any incentives to upgrade to Linux. That's why mainstream software support is of particular interest to the Linux community.

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Ahnteis
It would be a great opportunity for LINUX, not Valve.

Yeah, expanding your customer base is always bad for business.

 

[dbsynergy]

Ugh, I just finnished reading all eight pages and felt the sudden urge to post.

I want to start off by saying that I work with most of the major operating systems on a constaint basis and I work with people that strongly prefer the macintosh OS over anything else. To be fair that these people are graphic designers so they have been trained for a long time that the macintosh is the only system that is capable of producing any media. On the other hand, the windows users are vicious trolls that belive they will become infected with a horrible Apple-based-desise if they even touch the machine. What sickens me is the shortsightedness of these people and their inability to admit that there may be a better tool for the job.

Currently I am writing this on my Gentoo Linux based laptop that I use for lanparties to play Quake3Arena and UnrealTournament 2003 which I have had much more preformance than their windows versions. Sometimes I even play the occational Counter-Strike and Warcraft 3 using WINE without a problem.

I'll admit, Gentoo is not for the Linux newbie and I started out with Mandrake (and hated it). I thought all that console work was for crazy people that have too much time to get any real work done. Now I look back and see the errors in my logic and relise console work is by far the best way to have complete control over your system.

Windows has it's advantages over both the Macintosh OS and Linux namely in the gaming area where it made a very wise decision to make DirectX and not to make it avaliable to anyone else.

Some short history for you folks who don't know what DirectX really is... Before DirectX there were dozens of video cards. If you wanted to design a game that would directly write to the video, you had to write a driver for every single card that u would like your game to work in. If you bought/downloaded a game that didn't have a driver written for your video card, you were SOL.

Now for those of you who think Microsoft never had any innovation, you are just as bad as those Slashdot geeks who think Microsoft is a giant conspiracy to steal your money and give you somthing they stole themselfs. DirectX has video drivers for most of the videocards and all a developer has to do is tell DirectX what to draw. Alot less work for the developer and a better chance that the software will work on most computers. That just screams innovation to me.

On the other hand, to make a game like UT2k3 that will play on both Linux and Windows, you would need to write it in some other language that will compile on both without too many modifications. On top of that, you would need a DirectX-like API that will work on a non-Windows platform. This is where SDL comes in.

SDL is an OpenGL based C++ programing enviroment. One would think that if Epic (or whoever) could make such a wildly popular game like UT2k3 that pushes the limits of graphics on modern computers. Then Valve could do the same while implementing their advanced phisics, shader based graphics, AI, and whatever other fancy features they have without limiting themselfs to Windows only DirectX.

It doesn't make sence to put in road-blocks when designing a game that could potentially limit sales...

On a finnal note, I consider Kaptain Killer's post the single most retarded post I have ever read. I have never in my life seen so much bull sh*t in one thread. Did Microsoft pay you to say all that crap agianst Linux?

 

[dbsynergy]

And for those who think that Linux has a bad GUI, take a look at my KDE 3.1 desktop:

(sorry for the terrible quality. 100k limit on a 1600x1200 file is harsh)

 

[Adam]

"Now I look back and see the errors in my logic and relise console work is by far the best way to have complete control over your system."

LMAO!
<Sarcasm> Console programs are the future! Forget about GUI's! Who needs em! 5000 complicated hard to remember commands to do things is the way to go! I think my grandma will finaly be able to use a PC complete and effectivly! Infact, we should all switch from monitors to the LCD displays that simple calculators have!</Sarcasm>

Yeah real smart buddy lol This guy obviously never heard of the word 'Intuitive'! LoL

 

[ApocalypseNow]

Just get Lindows (if there not being sued) Lindows runs both Linux and windows programs!

 

[dbsynergy]

Lindows I belive uses the WINE project to run windows apps. That's fine however it doesn't have sophisticated enough DirectX abilities. That means it'll play Half-Life (DX6) but not Half-Life2 (DX9).

 

[nw909]

Installing linux was too hard for me because im a dumbass windows user who can't do shit with his computer.

 

[LoneDeranger]

I was able to install it without too much trouble. I just hope it doesn't decide to eat the rest of my harddrive one day.

 

[Shirow-DG]

"Now I look back and see the errors in my logic and relise console work is by far the best way to have complete control over your system."

LMAO!
<Sarcasm> Console programs are the future! Forget about GUI's! Who needs em! 5000 complicated hard to remember commands to do things is the way to go! I think my grandma will finaly be able to use a PC complete and effectivly! Infact, we should all switch from monitors to the LCD displays that simple calculators have!</Sarcasm>

Yeah real smart buddy lol This guy obviously never heard of the word 'Intuitive'! LoL

Comprehension skills go a long way.

He didn't say it was easier. He didn't say it was more intuitive.

He said it was the best way to have complete control over your system.

But I'm sure you caught that the first time.

 

[nw909]

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
I was able to install it without too much trouble. I just hope it doesn't decide to eat the rest of my harddrive one day.

It already at my:

-Harddrive
-Soul
-Inner child
-Toaster
-Dog

and an assortment of silverware.

 

[Mountain Man]

Originally posted by Adam
"Now I look back and see the errors in my logic and relise console work is by far the best way to have complete control over your system."

LMAO!
<Sarcasm> Console programs are the future! Forget about GUI's! Who needs em! 5000 complicated hard to remember commands to do things is the way to go! I think my grandma will finaly be able to use a PC complete and effectivly! Infact, we should all switch from monitors to the LCD displays that simple calculators have!</Sarcasm>

Yeah real smart buddy lol This guy obviously never heard of the word 'Intuitive'! LoL

Like the post a couple pages back said, if you've never used Linux and don't know anything about it, don't bother posting. You just come across looking like an ignorant tard.

Let's settle this "Linux doesn't have a nice GUI" bullsh*t once and for all: Click here and watch your ignorance evaporate.