If it isn't one thing, it is another.

[No Limit]

99.9% where are your 'sources' on this?

I don't need a source. If you actually think most people kill just for the hell of it to face life in prison you are deeply mistaken. Sure there are some extreme physcos out there but that is rare; hence my non-scientific 99.9% figure. Besides if I had a source you wouldn't trust it anyway since it is the media, right?

ive seen a lot of cases where the person trying to protect his property takes down a gun to injure the person, and because of the lethal power of the gun, ends up killing them, unlike the use of a shovel.. which would just make them black out.

What if the burgler has a gun? Will a shovel work?

a gun is instant! you shoot and you have no way back, and its just a move of the index finger. opposed to the knifes and axes where you would have to go right up too the person and put some will power into it, possible losing your life..

I suggest you go actually shoot a gun before you say its just a move of an index finger.

people would rather use gun than axes and shovels, because you can injure/kill them without gettin too close for them, and it only takes 1 push of a button.

Again, you have to be close or usually you will miss. For some reason people have a tendency to run when they are getting shot at from long distances.

 

[jondy]

This is not true. If you are willing to kill someone you already have the will power to do it; it doesn't matter if you shoot them 5 feet away, bash them with a bat, or stab them. Please don't kill just to kill, in 99.9% of the cases the killer, in his/her mind, has a reason to do it; how they do it doesn't matter.

So you don't think, for example, in murder cases involving domestic violence or argument, the killer was pushed too far rather than having the argument with the intent of finishing it off with murder at the end?

It's a undeniably a sliding scale, and the gun, as a more immediate way of threatening or killing someone, shortens the odds

 

[KoreBolteR]

I don't need a source. If you actually think most people kill just for the hell of it to face life in prison you are deeply mistaken. Sure there are some extreme physcos out there but that is rare; hence my non-scientific 99.9% figure. Besides if I had a source you wouldn't trust it anyway since it is the media, right?.

at last, youve finally realised its the media, correct, the 99.9% you stated couldnt possibly be right, because it came out of your head, and the fact that any 'source' you got, how could they have this knowlege, how do they know that a percentage of people killed thier victim purpously.. for a reason.. surely they couldnt have asked every murderer that killed someone via firearm. so yes..

What if the burgler has a gun? Will a shovel work?.

thats excatly what im pointing out, if guns were legal.. everyone could own weapons, therefore being threatened by low class robbers who have guns (because they are really easy to get).

so you could say.. if the burglar had a knife, would a gun work... killing them? , because if guns were legal over here, the gun crime would totally increase, and our country would be in trouble...

I suggest you go actually shoot a gun before you say its just a move of an index finger.

please tell me what other part of the body you move to make the bullets travel out of the gun, and possibly killing somebody?

do you blink your eyes? wriggle your toes? to make the bullets come out... dont think so.

Again, you have to be close or usually you will miss. For some reason people have a tendency to run when they are getting shot at from long distances.

i didnt say a long distance, i meant a fair distance away that is classed as "not near". you see what i mean?

guns need to stay illegal in the UK.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Legalizing guns would increase impulse murders.

 

[kirovman]

guns need to stay illegal in the UK.

Definately. I mean people keep saying that it is easy to get guns illegally, but we don't hear about the charvers getting them (which they most surely would do, given the chance).

I could just imagine it.

A maths class in school:
*Pistol fired*
"How man, give us yer dinner money like"
"Did you bring a gun into school?"
"**** off. This is my dad's like, he's got 39 guns at home. And my uncle's got 48. If you talk to me like that I'll blow your head off scranner"

Nah, guns, Charvers and the UK are not a good combination, in all fairness.

I am 99% sure legislation of guns here will result in crime skyrocketing (moreso than it is).

With the anti-social youths in British society, it would be endorsing Anarchy.

I haven't heard much about guns being obtained illegally, bar notorious and organised criminals.
And I haven't heard much of shootings with no motives either. Most are drugs gangs related. Which is a different civil matter in itself.

You could get one illegally yes, but if you were caught, you'd be looking at a long jail sentence.
The moment the average scally criminal (not hardcore criminal) uses a gun, they are going to be hunted by the police -and they know this.


Knife crime is much higher than gun crime in the UK. I'm sure if guns were legal, it would equal or surpass knife crime.

 

[staticprimer]

Guns? Don't make me laugh. Real men kill with spoons.

 

[kirovman]

Guns? Don't make me laugh. Real men kill with spoons.

Truesay. Combat by spoon is a true hero's story.

Where's the gentlemen's honour with guns?

The only gentlemen's way to kill with guns is by duel.

Any other way is just downright dishonest, nasty and plain mean.

 

[staticprimer]

Truesay. Combat by spoon is a true hero's story.

Where's the gentlemen's honour with guns?

The only gentlemen's way to kill with guns is by duel.

Any other way is just downright dishonest, nasty and plain mean.

Exactly! These days one can get in a car, shoot out the window and drive off before the victim can even react. So I ask you, where are the drive by stabbings, or (dare I say it?) drive by spoonings? (pun absolutely intended :E)

 

[KoreBolteR]

with the washington DC sniper. how could he have killed without a gun..?

by throwing an axe 40 yards from the back of his car?
dont think so.

 

[Laivasse]

This is not true. If you are willing to kill someone you already have the will power to do it; it doesn't matter if you shoot them 5 feet away, bash them with a bat, or stab them. Please don't kill just to kill, in 99.9% of the cases the killer, in his/her mind, has a reason to do it; how they do it doesn't matter.

And the cases of children under 10 shooting dead other children because they found their dad's gun and brought it to class? There's been a couple of cases so there's no need for me to quote individual details, but are you saying that these kids would have brought a knife to class, or a hammer, or an axe to kill another child in the absence of a gun? No of course they wouldn't because it takes a lot more emotional commitment to kill someone with more primitive means.

The point is that guns facilitate killing. Fact. If I wanted to kill someone - let's say I snapped under the strain of modern living, or decided that there was someone who was worth more to the world dead - and had a gun in the house, the I put the gun in my pocket, meet with theguy, and shoot him in the head by pulling the trigger. Perhaps the gun is weedy and not likely to kill, as you say many legal guns in the US are - well, then, maybe I'll shoot the guy twice. In the event that I've snapped, maybe I'll shoot some random bystanders in blind rage before saving a bullet for myself. Total bodycount for this tragic incident: unknown

In the event that I don't have a gun, a lot more thought and planning is necessary. If I'm going to use a knife, where am I going to stab this guy so that he dies quickly? Do I even have any suitable knives? Do I really want to feel the feedback as his flesh gets punctured, and do I want arterial blood to jet into my eyes? In the event that I've snapped...well, I'm not goingto be able to take my rage out on very many people easily if I don't have a weapon that fires out metal projectiles at lethal velocity.

Maybe I'll decide that it's far more likely I'll get caught in this case, because there's a much lower chance of succeeding to kill. Total bodycount: likely to be between 0 and 1

Your distinction between criminal and law-abiding citizen, or killer and someone who doesn't want to kill is utterly spurious and naive. Law-abiding citizens turn into criminals on a daily basis, and sometimes they involve guns in the process. People kill people all the time without thinking about it very hard - guns make it easier to do so. Axes, to date, do not.

 

[shade70]

Definately. I mean people keep saying that it is easy to get guns illegally, but we don't hear about the charvers getting them (which they most surely would do, given the chance).

II am 99% sure legislation of guns here will result in crime skyrocketing (moreso than it is).

With the anti-social youths in British society, it would be endorsing Anarchy.


You could get one illegally yes, but if you were caught, you'd be looking at a long jail sentence.
The moment the average scally criminal (not hardcore criminal) uses a gun, they are going to be hunted by the police -and they know this.

Knife crime is much higher than gun crime in the UK. I'm sure if guns were legal, it would equal or surpass knife crime.

Here, Here! I totally agree.
In the UK, ANY reported crime where a firearm maybe involved is immediately passed to SO19 (the British version of the american SWAT team)...these guys carry MP5s and Berretas and dont mess about. So most average, run of the mill criminals (muggers, housebreakers, etc) don't use guns at all, as they know it is not worth the risk.....in the UK if you report someone just carrying a Gun in their car, SO19 will respond to it.

This means in the UK, only the Drug gangs and the real hardcore criminals (banks robbers etc) carry firearms. Im sure alot more criminals could get hold of a gun, but its just not worth the risk to use one.

Only a few days ago in the States, a 10 year old boy shot his 4 year old brother in his head with his Dads pistol (kept for self defence). Keep saying how guns are used for sports and self defence in the States - if you say it enough times it might be true. The self defence/protection argument is crap...Im sorry. Statisically a gun kept in the home for protection is more likely to be used to shoot a member of the family than a criminial. That is FACT.

In America, 6.8 people per 100,000 will die through guns. In the UK its 0.4 per 100,000. Most of the deaths caused by guns in the States were accidental....not criminal.

Its weird in a country thats goes ape over cholestrol and will practically put you in Prison for smoking a cigarette in a public place has such a blaise attitude to firearms.

So the right to bear arms is in the US constitution...thats 200 years old now. Bear baiting/slavery was acceptable 200 years ago as well, but we got rid of these babaric things along time ago...

 

[kirovman]

Not to mention that I think it is still possible to hunt with a gun in the UK. Although there are tough restrictions, and I think the weapons need to be stored at lock-up, you can't take it home to sleep with it under your pillow.

There's also consideration into banning air-rifles since some 2 year old kid got shot with one, and died of head injuries later.
Get shot in the eye with one of those suckas, and it could be fatal.

As for axes, the gun topic title - well that's the first case of an axe murder I've seen in a long long time.
I used to have a fear of axes when I was young, haha, must have watched too many horror movies.

We did used to have firearms legally in the past, but they got banned after certain slaughters came in the public eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States

 

[No Limit]

at last, youve finally realised its the media, correct, the 99.9% you stated couldnt possibly be right, because it came out of your head, and the fact that any 'source' you got, how could they have this knowlege, how do they know that a percentage of people killed thier victim purpously.. for a reason.. surely they couldnt have asked every murderer that killed someone via firearm. so yes..

You are right, years of scientific research in polling has never been accurate even though it predicted the 2004 election with only 1% error. Like I said many times, I don't think the politics forum is a good place for you.

thats excatly what im pointing out, if guns were legal.. everyone could own weapons, therefore being threatened by low class robbers who have guns (because they are really easy to get).

No, illegal guns are much cheaper and much easier to get than legal guns are. If a low class burgler will have a gun it will be illegal.

please tell me what other part of the body you move to make the bullets travel out of the gun, and possibly killing somebody?

do you blink your eyes? wriggle your toes? to make the bullets come out... dont think so.

There is this thing called aiming for starters. This is a lot harder than it seems, especially when dealing with a moving target. Second, again, go shoot a gun. You have no idea how loud and distracting an actual gun is when you fire it; your ears will be ringing for days.

i didnt say a long distance, i meant a fair distance away that is classed as "not near". you see what i mean?

I know what you meant but you missed my point completely, at such short rages the killer could just as easily grab a knife, bat, whatever.

 

[No Limit]

So you don't think, for example, in murder cases involving domestic violence or argument, the killer was pushed too far rather than having the argument with the intent of finishing it off with murder at the end?

It's a undeniably a sliding scale, and the gun, as a more immediate way of threatening or killing someone, shortens the odds

But why wouldn't they be able to grab a knife or beat someone to death if they were pushed too far? You have to understand most people don't just grab their guns when they have an argument with someone. I've had many arguments with people at my house; pulling my gun never crossed my mind.

 

[No Limit]

And the cases of children under 10 shooting dead other children because they found their dad's gun and brought it to class? There's been a couple of cases so there's no need for me to quote individual details, but are you saying that these kids would have brought a knife to class, or a hammer, or an axe to kill another child in the absence of a gun? No of course they wouldn't because it takes a lot more emotional commitment to kill someone with more primitive means.

And this is the fault of who? The gun makers or the dumb parents that leave their guns out where the kids will find them?

The point is that guns facilitate killing. Fact. If I wanted to kill someone - let's say I snapped under the strain of modern living, or decided that there was someone who was worth more to the world dead - and had a gun in the house, the I put the gun in my pocket, meet with theguy, and shoot him in the head by pulling the trigger. Perhaps the gun is weedy and not likely to kill, as you say many legal guns in the US are - well, then, maybe I'll shoot the guy twice. In the event that I've snapped, maybe I'll shoot some random bystanders in blind rage before saving a bullet for myself. Total bodycount for this tragic incident: unknown

How many of these cases are there where people go insane like that? In those cases what is stopping them from getting a gun illegally. Remember the bank robbery in LA with 2 guys armed to their teeth? Those ak47s they had were not legal.

In the event that I don't have a gun, a lot more thought and planning is necessary. If I'm going to use a knife, where am I going to stab this guy so that he dies quickly? Do I even have any suitable knives? Do I really want to feel the feedback as his flesh gets punctured, and do I want arterial blood to jet into my eyes? In the event that I've snapped...well, I'm not goingto be able to take my rage out on very many people easily if I don't have a weapon that fires out metal projectiles at lethal velocity.

Maybe I'll decide that it's far more likely I'll get caught in this case, because there's a much lower chance of succeeding to kill. Total bodycount: likely to be between 0 and 1

Killers don't plan like that; they are too stupid too. If the though of not getting caught actually crosses your mind you wouldn't do it in the first place.

Your distinction between criminal and law-abiding citizen, or killer and someone who doesn't want to kill is utterly spurious and naive. Law-abiding citizens turn into criminals on a daily basis, and sometimes they involve guns in the process. People kill people all the time without thinking about it very hard - guns make it easier to do so. Axes, to date, do not.

Most people that will kill have a very troubled past and don't think about this stuff. A person that actually thinks about it would have to get a gun illegally anyway not to get caught. Do you have any idea what forensic ballistics can do?

 

[KoreBolteR]

You are right, years of scientific research in polling has never been accurate even though it predicted the 2004 election with only 1% error. Like I said many times, I don't think the politics forum is a good place for you..

Why? because i have a different opinion on polling?
id like to remind you politics isnt all about little innaccurate polls.

No, illegal guns are much cheaper and much easier to get than legal guns are. If a low class burgler will have a gun it will be illegal.
.

yes, but it would be Harder for him too look for that illegal gun, because there isnt so many people that know how to get them.. and if you get caught, youll have a lengthy prison sentence.

dont believe me? come over here to the UK and try yourself.. Then come back on the forums with your 'opinion'

There is this thing called aiming for starters. This is a lot harder than it seems, especially when dealing with a moving target. Second, again, go shoot a gun. You have no idea how loud and distracting an actual gun is when you fire it; your ears will be ringing for days..

do you think i'm stupid?
i know a gun is loud, unless it has a silencer on it.

I know what you meant but you missed my point completely, at such short ranges the killer could just as easily grab a knife, bat, whatever.

and if we make guns legal in the UK..

a robber running across the room at you trying to grab your bat/knife whatever is better than a couple of bullets in your body.

have you tried to grav a knife or bat out of someones hand? and easily pulled it off? if so, im impressed.

 

[KoreBolteR]

But why wouldn't they be able to grab a knife or beat someone to death if they were pushed too far? You have to understand most people don't just grab their guns when they have an argument with someone. I've had many arguments with people at my house; pulling my gun never crossed my mind.

yeah but there are people out there that will do it.

 

[Laivasse]

And this is the fault of who? The gun makers or the dumb parents that leave their guns out where the kids will find them?

Of course it is the parents fault. So? What does it matter whose fault it is? The fact is that a situation where guns are in the houses of ordinary everyday people is a more volatile situation than one where those people do not have guns. Like you're saying - those children must have had terribly irresponsible parents. There are an incredible amount of stupid people in society, and I don't trust most people to even be able to bring up children properly. Legislating to make it easier most post people (read, "idiots") to possess guns is a bad idea. In a society where only an extreme few possess and use guns, there is no widespread need or call for guns in the first place.

Also, the fact that a sub-10 year old child can shoot and kill another child without any prior weapons training proves that it really is as easy to use them as most people say. You don't need to be able to field-strip an assault rifle to be able to point a pistol and shoot it. Okay so guns make a loud noise...big deal.

How many of these cases are there where people go insane like that?

Um, Columbine? Weren't all those guns legally obtained? You could speculate that if they weren't legally obtainable then those 2 guys would have them illegally. It's very very far from a certainty, however. They weren't professional criminals out to rob a bank, like the guys you mentioned, they were a couple of introverts who had been marinaded in angst. Without weapons easily to hand then there's every possibility that they would have sat and stewed and done nothing.

There's a few such cases in every country. People occasionally snap under the strain of life, and it's best to ensure that they don't have lethal weapons around when they do so. I wouldn't win a national prize for being well-adjusted myself. There have been numerous occasions in life where I've seriously been furious enough at someone to think "My God, if I had a gun, I would have shot that ****er in the face." Probably best if I went through life without a gun.

Killers don't plan like that; they are too stupid too. If the though of not getting caught actually crosses your mind you wouldn't do it in the first place.

...

Most people that will kill have a very troubled past and don't think about this stuff. A person that actually thinks about it would have to get a gun illegally anyway not to get caught.

You're generalising far too much here. You can't possibly claim to know the psychology of every single person who has ever killed. Like I said, it's naive to think of killers as a different species - it's not a comforting thought, but killers are human too. Quite a lot of the time they are stupid humans who don't thinkvery hard, like you say. Guns make it easy not to think very hard about something.

 

[short recoil]

i dont know if you know a lot about columbine but the guns were illeagal........a girlfriend bought them from a show.

Also it wasn't their intention to go on a gun killing spree..........the bombs were gonna do all the killing that day.........thankfully they didn't go off/were shit.
The guns were gonna be used to "mop up" after the explosions.

But again, It wasn't the gun or the bombs fault it was the humans............stop blaming an object and start blaming yourself and you will soon have a peaceful world.

 

[Laivasse]

i dont know if you know a lot about columbine but the guns were illeagal........a girlfriend bought them from a show.

Also it wasn't their intention to go on a gun killing spree..........the bombs were gonna do all the killing that day.........thankfully they didn't go off/were shit.
The guns were gonna be used to "mop up" after the explosions.

But again, It wasn't the gun or the bombs fault it was the humans............stop blaming an object and start blaming yourself and you will soon have a peaceful world.

That's right, I don't know much about Columbine, which is why I was careful to phrase my "fact" as a question

But read my post - I am blaming people, not guns. Humans are not omnipotent, however, and need tools to get things done. Make it harder to get those tools and people will find it harder to do what they would easily accomplish otherwise.

 

[KoreBolteR]

I am blaming people, not guns. Humans are not omnipotent, however, and need tools to get things done. Make it harder to get those tools and people will find it harder to do what they would easily accomplish otherwise.

took the words right out of my mouth

 

[No Limit]

Why? because i have a different opinion on polling?
id like to remind you politics isnt all about little innaccurate polls.

No, because you will not accept facts. Everytime we give you a fact you say the media is biased and frankly you make no sense when you say this.

yes, but it would be Harder for him too look for that illegal gun, because there isnt so many people that know how to get them.. and if you get caught, youll have a lengthy prison sentence.

dont believe me? come over here to the UK and try yourself.. Then come back on the forums with your 'opinion'

Again, you have absolutely no clue how easy it is to get an illegal gun.

do you think i'm stupid?
i know a gun is loud, unless it has a silencer on it.

This kind of shows how out of reality you are. This isn't a movie, most people don't have silencers. And I'm sure you know a gun is lound, but you don't know how loud and how disoriented you get after you shoot it.

and if we make guns legal in the UK..

a robber running across the room at you trying to grab your bat/knife whatever is better than a couple of bullets in your body.

have you tried to grav a knife or bat out of someones hand? and easily pulled it off? if so, im impressed.

You completely ignored what I said. A burgler doesn't need guns to be legal to have a gun.

yeah but there are people out there that will do it.

There are people out there that will do a lot of things; you won't stop them by making guns illegal.

Of course it is the parents fault. So? What does it matter whose fault it is? The fact is that a situation where guns are in the houses of ordinary everyday people is a more volatile situation than one where those people do not have guns. Like you're saying - those children must have had terribly irresponsible parents. There are an incredible amount of stupid people in society, and I don't trust most people to even be able to bring up children properly. Legislating to make it easier most post people (read, "idiots") to possess guns is a bad idea. In a society where only an extreme few possess and use guns, there is no widespread need or call for guns in the first place.

If a gun is used the wrong way it can be deadly yes, this includes stupid ass parents leaving them out. If I drive drunk and kill someone should I be responsible or should the car maker be?

Um, Columbine? Weren't all those guns legally obtained?

No, not by a long shot. Someone bought those guns for those kids or they stole it from someone. I'm not sure if they found out which it was.

Without weapons easily to hand then there's every possibility that they would have sat and stewed and done nothing.

No, they would have gotten those weapons elsewhere or they would have done other crazy shit like build a bomb. At best it would have taken them slightly longer.

There have been numerous occasions in life where I've seriously been furious enough at someone to think "My God, if I had a gun, I would have shot that ****er in the face." Probably best if I went through life without a gun.

You might want to be evaluated if you honestly thought about actually killing someone.

You're generalising far too much here. You can't possibly claim to know the psychology of every single person who has ever killed. Like I said, it's naive to think of killers as a different species - it's not a comforting thought, but killers are human too. Quite a lot of the time they are stupid humans who don't thinkvery hard, like you say. Guns make it easy not to think very hard about something.

But it boils down to this, they will get those guns no matter what. We have the wonderful drug war on our streets. Do you know how many million people do drugs each day? Making something illegal doesn't stop it.

 

[Laivasse]

Making something illegal doesn't stop it.

I think you might be confused as to what you're arguing over. In the UK, handguns are already illegal - most people have been talking about the difference it would make if the laws were as relaxed as they were in the US. Guns are still a problem in some places. They are much less a problem here than they are in the States, however.

No, they would have gotten those weapons elsewhere or they would have done other crazy shit like build a bomb. At best it would have taken them slightly longer.
...
But it boils down to this, they will get those guns no matter what.

There are no facts here. There doesn't seem to be much basis for your opinions either. Guns are illegal in the UK - as a result, knives are a bigger problem than guns. So people here haven't "got those guns no matter what". I have seen some of your posts in other threads and they are quite rational, why make such wild leaps of judgement here?

 

[kirovman]

Guns are illegal in the UK - as a result, knives are a bigger problem than guns. So people here haven't "got those guns no matter what".

Very true. I'm sure you could get one if you really wanted to, but the truth is, most of your pety thugs don't.

Here's an article about fighting gun crime. It points out most gun crime is associated with drugs gangs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3112818.stm

Fighting drug's gangs is the police's job, not the vigilante groups in the street. It could get real ugly.

Now to try and look at things from a statistical angle, rather than a "guns are the same/different from knives and axes" point of view, remembering European countries don't legislate firearms mainly, and the USA does.

Most murders per capita:

Well all of those nations seem to have guns problems, if I recall correctly. I don't see the European nations with banned guns rated highly on there.

Murder with firearms (Most trigger happy)per capita

Now the US comes out top compared to European countries. Looks like the statistic is at least twice as high.
This suggests to me the legislation of guns means that more murders with guns will be committed.

From my point of view these statistics, and statistics like it are more than enough to convince me that we don't need guns legalised in the UK.
It would be madness.

I'm sure it is 'easy' to get an illegal gun. But truth is, here, most of the crimes don't spill over onto regular people's lives. It's mainly heroine addicts that didn't pay up, or rival drugs gangs.
The ordinary people who get shot by guns, this news shocks the nation, because it is in fact so rare.

I haven't heard many ordinary burglars armed with guns, because they know they would get in much much more trouble, and be hunted down, with the chief police officer appearing on the news, if they did rob a house with guns.

Another news article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3419401.stm

The UK is tough on guns. And giving people guns to solve a guns problem is counter-intuative, IMO.

 

[GhostFox]

This suggests to me the legislation of guns means that more murders with guns will be committed.

Maybe people in the US are just better shots?

I'm actually serious (sort of). The violent crime rate is higher in the UK then it is in the US, but the murder rate is lower. Maybe criminals in the US have better aim?

 

[jondy]

But why wouldn't they be able to grab a knife or beat someone to death if they were pushed too far? You have to understand most people don't just grab their guns when they have an argument with someone. I've had many arguments with people at my house; pulling my gun never crossed my mind.

This isn't about you; this is about people who have lost control.

Like I keep saying, there's a difference between hacking someone to death with a kitchen knife and pulling the trigger, a difference that can make or break a situation where a usually sane person isn't thinking rationally for a second.

 

[kirovman]

Maybe people in the US are just better shots?

I'm actually serious (sort of). The violent crime rate is higher in the UK then it is in the US, but the murder rate is lower. Maybe criminals in the US have better aim?

Violent crimes includes knife crime and the like...just violence really.

The knife crime here is significantly higher than the gun crime.

At least with knife crime you stand a fighting chance though, if you take self-defence classes for example.

It's true that the anti-social youths take knives to assault people, and the police are really starting to clamp down on it now - let's not give them guns.

 

[No Limit]

I think you might be confused as to what you're arguing over. In the UK, handguns are already illegal - most people have been talking about the difference it would make if the laws were as relaxed as they were in the US. Guns are still a problem in some places. They are much less a problem here than they are in the States, however.

I am arguing for legal guns here in the US, I don't know the exact laws in the UK. Yes, we have a lot of gun crimes here in the US; but we also have a lot of idiots. As far as I know Canada has as many guns as we do and they have virtually no gun crimes (compared to US).

There are no facts here. There doesn't seem to be much basis for your opinions either. Guns are illegal in the UK - as a result, knives are a bigger problem than guns. So people here haven't "got those guns no matter what". I have seen some of your posts in other threads and they are quite rational, why make such wild leaps of judgement here?

Like I said, I do not live in the UK nor do I pay attention to your laws. What might seem irrational to you is rational here and vice versa. Here we will never get rid of guns as they are everywhere. If you can't obtain one legally you can obtain one even easier illegally. Trust me, if you lived here and been around certain areas you would know how rational this is. And as been said, the kids at Columbine built a bomb that simply didn't work, if it had the destruction would have been 100 times worse than what it was.

I point to the drug war to show that just because something is regulated doesn't mean it will disappear.

 

[No Limit]

This isn't about you; this is about people who have lost control.

Like I keep saying, there's a difference between hacking someone to death with a kitchen knife and pulling the trigger, a difference that can make or break a situation where a usually sane person isn't thinking rationally for a second.

If someone is that unstable they can just as easily grab a knife to threaten someone. Then they lose control and stab them; I see very little difference. If you are willing to kill someone you are willing to obtain a gun illegally (chances are you already did).

 

[kirovman]

Question:

Is everyone in possession of a handgun willing to kill?

And:

If not, how does that work in the context of self-defence?

If they have a handgun, surely that implies they were willing to kill and they had anticipated the events leading up to them killing someone - which begs the question, could they not have prepared in another way.

This kind of arguement is used against people who use guns for self defence in the UK. And the law treats the offence of having a firearm just as seriously as the killing itself.
I have heard many people getting sent down not for killing in self defence, but the possession of the firearm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3672701.stm

Conservative MP Roger Gale wanted legal protection for people who believed they had acted in reasonable self defence against intruders.

But his Criminal Justice (Justifiable Conduct) Bill failed to make further progress in the House of Commons.

Home Office Minister, Fiona Mactaggart, said that it would have created a "spiral of violence and retaliation".

Broxtowe MP, Nick Palmer, said that the proposals were a "licence for madmen" which could see youngsters being shot for trying to get their footballs back from their neighbour's garden.

Just a thought.

 

[GhostFox]

As far as I know Canada has as many guns as we do and they have virtually no gun crimes (compared to US).

Canada has a lot of guns, but not as many as the US. That being said, Canada has twice the violent crime rate of the US, and the % of murders involving guns is almost equal between the two countries.

EDIT: Crime has gotten out of hand in Canada because we have convinced ourselves that there is no crime here. Major reforms need to be immediately taken, and it's all the people beleiving in the "No-Crime in Canada" myth that makes it so hard to effect these reforms.

 

[No Limit]

Canada has a lot of guns, but not as many as the US. That being said, Canada has twice the violent crime rate of the US, and the % of murders involving guns is almost equal between the two countries.

EDIT: Crime has gotten out of hand in Canada because we have convinced ourselves that there is no crime here. Major reforms need to be immediately taken, and it's all the people beleiving in the "No-Crime in Canada" myth that makes it so hard to effect these reforms.

Maybe I should of double checked what Moore said. Do you have any stats? I haven't been able to find anything yet.

 

[GhostFox]

Maybe I should of double checked what Moore said.

Ask a cop here what he thinks of Moore. He's made their jobs even tougher by reinforcing the myth. The govt. has been very slow to react to the rising crime trends. For example, last year Winnipeg, (where I live) actually supassed Mexico City to claim the title of most auto thefts per-capita in the entire world.

Do you have any stats?

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/legal02.htm

In 2003 there were 962.8 violent crimes (murder, attempted murder, assualt with deadly weapon, rape, and armed robbery) per 100,000 people in Canada.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm (click on Table 1)

In 2003 there were 475 incidents of violent crime per 100,000 people in the United States.


EDIT: I don't want people to get the idea that it is unsafe living in Canada, because really it isn't. I just hope to dispel the myth that crime is non-existant in Canada so reforms can be made.

 

[jondy]

If someone is that unstable they can just as easily grab a knife to threaten someone. Then they lose control and stab them; I see very little difference. If you are willing to kill someone you are willing to obtain a gun illegally (chances are you already did).

You're not looking at the psychology of the situation. Killing with knives is a lot harder, mentally, than killing with guns.

As for the illegal guns argument; this isn't about murderers who've made up their minds, although they'd probably go for the gun anyway as it's generally a quicker, cleaner and less mentally damaging way of killing someone. This is about split-second decisions; I've no doubt a person who really wanted to kill wouldn't bat an eyelid bludgeoning them to death with a rolling-pin

 

[Calanen]

You would be amazed at how easy it is to get a gun illegally; much easier than getting it legally.

People always say this. And perhaps its true I don't know. Certainly in the US where there are milions of firearms. However, in Australia, I've never seen or known of firearms being for sale. I knew of major criminals who reportedly carried them. But streetpunks? Im a lawyer. I drove taxis. I worked as a security guard and bouncer at clubs. So I've been 'nearby' some pretty shady stuff. Noone, has EVER offered me a firearm for sale, nor have I ever known where one was available for sale illegally.

I doubt No Limit has either at his Green Left Weekly Meetings or the Regional Chess Club. (If you are trying to tell me No Limit that you are Da Bling Bling Gangster SnoopDizzle with ya AK gat, I don't buy it.)

Not a scientific study, but where are all these firearms sold?

But let's say they are freely available on the streets. Whats the point of banning them then? Certainly if you can import a container load of heroin, you can import a container load of AK47s.

 

[jondy]

Atch. Calanen, if you know the right people, these things are pretty easy to acquire.

It's like scoring weed; you don't see a lot of it on the streets, but if you get hooked up with people you'll see it's all over the f'kin place.

You have have contacts before you can get your hands on that kindof shit tho'

 

[No Limit]

I doubt No Limit has either at his Green Left Weekly Meetings or the Regional Chess Club. (If you are trying to tell me No Limit that you are Da Bling Bling Gangster SnoopDizzle with ya AK gat, I don't buy it.)

Lets get away from trying to start flaming. No, I am not a Bling Bling Gangster; however, I have been around enough crazy people in my youth to have experiance with this. You would be amazed at how many people in this country own AK-47s which are highly illegal. It is not a matter of people offering you guns, that doesn't happen, it's a matter of you asking for guns. Do you not admit drugs are extremely easy to get? It would be naive of you to think guns are much harder to get, both come from the exact same sources.

 

[Calanen]

2. Do you disagree that if the hijackers didn't have box knives that 9/11 could have been prevented?

I disagree, because they also had a box with wires on it and said it was a bomb. Brave person who says, nah its fake f_))c u. Course now, I would, because we know that the plane is not flying to Uganda for negotiations for our release - its flying it a building or a stadium. So whether the box is real or not, one takes their chances. Even if the hijackers just had a briefcase and said, theres a bomb in that briefcase, they could have still taken the plane over.

 

[Calanen]

No Limit I'm guessing is from the USA or Canada, where the presence of guns and the reasons for them are obvious. In the USA at least, an AK47 can be legally owned in many states. Are there people with illegal Aks? sure. But I was limiting my experience to Australia. Someone did try and sell me in AK when i lived in the USA tho. What I would need one for I do not know.

 

[No Limit]

No Limit I'm guessing is from the USA or Canada, where the presence of guns and the reasons for them are obvious. In the USA at least, an AK47 can be legally owned in many states. Are there people with illegal Aks? sure. But I was limiting my experience to Australia. Someone did try and sell me in AK when i lived in the USA tho. What I would need one for I do not know.

Any AK 47 with a clip that can hold more than 10 rounds is illegal which is most AK 47s. Again, I do not know how it is in your country but if you have a big drug problem like we do I can almost gurantee you it isn't much harder to get illegal guns there than it is here.