Iraq, the US & other stuff too

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
Yadda Yadda Yadda...........I can't argue my way out of a paper bag when faced with anything that might pop the bubble of my delusions regarding the good old US of A

Good for you that you recognise your limitations.:cheers:

 

[GhostValkyrie]

My being a Moderator has nothing to do with this, so be mature and leave that at the curb. As for Terraformation; I know how it's achieved.
All I'm saying is that our Governments have technology that we have no idea about. Though I want my Govt. to be open & honest, I know they aren't. And I think it would be rather large mistake as to disclose this information. Other Governments would want in on it, citizens would panic and think the planet's going to explode, etc.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
Good for you that you recognise your limitations.:cheers:

Nicely done.
I won't come back at that with an angry comment. I actually enjoy comical relief in debates.

One thing though; Why does everyone think it's a crime for me to love my country?

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
My being a Moderaotr has nothing to do with this, so be mature and leave that at the curb. As for Terraformation; I know how it's achieved.
All I'm saying is that our Governments have technology that we have no idea about. Though I want my Govt. to open 7 honest, I know they aren't. And I think it would be rather large mistake as to disclose this information. Other Governments would want in on it, citizens would panic and think the planet's going to explode, etc.

You've watched way too much X files.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
You've watched way too much X files.

Not really, that show was way too "out there."

Anyway; I think my opinion on people panicing can almost be considered fact. Remember when Orsen Wells broadcasted War of the Worlds? Then again, those were less skeptical times.

 

[LoneDeranger]

There is already certain bacteria which could be dumped on mars and start terraforming. That's why all spacecraft heading to Mars are steralized.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Hey, I just want to let you guys know I have no hard feelings toward any of you. I'm really enjoying this debate, and hope we can maintain friendly relations outside of it.

:cheers:

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
There is already certain bacteria which could be dumped on mars and start terraforming. That's why all spacecraft heading to Mars are steralized.

lol...i haven't looked at this thread for a long time...so i decided to look at the last page to see what was being discussed...and it's gone from iraq and stuff to terraforming mars...rofl

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
lol...i haven't looked at this thread for a long time...so i decided to look at the last page to see what was being discussed...and it's gone from iraq and stuff to terraforming mars...rofl

Heh, yeah. I'm becoming more interested in that.

 

[Korgoth]

Yeah no hard feelings gostvalkyrie, i think its good to debate and get stuff off your chest, makes you feel a lot better after wards... My comments earlier, I retract, I felt cornered and insulted that you thought I condoned suicide bombings, well i don't, and if you ask me both sides are to blame (israel and palestine) 50/50 so hope you forgive what i said in response -

Heres one for you, say ten years from now mars was ready to colonize, but earth was exactly the same it is now, no better no worse, would you move to mars or stay on earth?

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
Nicely done.
I won't come back at that with an angry comment. I actually enjoy comical relief in debates.

One thing though; Why does everyone think it's a crime for me to love my country?

Love is a word that should never be used lightly, best reserved for the man or woman who lights up your life. The notion of nation is transitory, an illusive term in the annals of history. To try and cling to what can't be grasped is a reckless act....especially at sea. There is no right way eternally, only the right way at this point in time. Certainly honouring your nation isn't a crime, but that shouldn't mean that you gloss over it's inconsistencies. It's like arguing whether HL2 is better than Stalker or Doom3, all have good points over each other. The smart thing to do is to put aside favouritism and seek out the best from all to move towards a better engine.

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
BTW: You failed to mention just how many people Stalin killed...not to mention how many have died at the hands of Communists leaders period.

yes, and don't forget China's "Great Leap Forward"

their collective farming policies and attempts to industrialize in unorthodox ways caused some 20-30 million famine-related deaths between 1949 and the late 1970s

millions more died during the 60's in stalin-like "purges."

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
yes, and don't forget China's "Great Leap Forward"

their collective farming policies and attempts to industrialize in unorthodox ways caused some 20-30 million famine-related deaths between 1949 and the late 1970s

millions more died during the 60's in stalin-like "purges."

Lets not forget President Kennedy authorising CIA operatives to shoot school children in Cuba amongst all things in the hope of destabilising Castro's Government, after the bay of Pigs fiasco.

 

[Maskirovka]

no less evil if it happened (i haven't read about it so i can't verify)

but some cuban schoolchildren can't compare to 30+ million chinese and even more russians.

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
no less evil if it happened (i haven't read about it so i can't verify)

but some cuban schoolchildren can't compare to 30+ million chinese and even more russians.

You mistake tyrants for communists. Would you class the teachings of the Koran as evil based on the actions of Osama Bin Laden? Because that is what you are effectively trying to do in your 'arguments'. If you want to discuss scales instead of policies/teachings have a look at the Bible and weigh up the death toll that's brought to the world. I think we might have a winner.

There are plenty more examples of outstanding foreign policy aside from the Cuba one. Pretty much every modern dicator going has been backed financially by the american government at one stage or another, the hand might not be on the trigger, but it certainly paid for the bullets.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Innervision961
Yeah no hard feelings gostvalkyrie, i think its good to debate and get stuff off your chest, makes you feel a lot better after wards... My comments earlier, I retract, I felt cornered and insulted that you thought I condoned suicide bombings, well i don't, and if you ask me both sides are to blame (israel and palestine) 50/50 so hope you forgive what i said in response -

Heres one for you, say ten years from now mars was ready to colonize, but earth was exactly the same it is now, no better no worse, would you move to mars or stay on earth?

I am an Earthling, and an American. I don't leave because the grass looks greener on the other side.
Vis Versa; What would you do?

Sorry I though you condoned those actions, I didn't mean to insult you.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
Love is a word that should never be used lightly, best reserved for the man or woman who lights up your life. The notion of nation is transitory, an illusive term in the annals of history. To try and cling to what can't be grasped is a reckless act....especially at sea. There is no right way eternally, only the right way at this point in time. Certainly honouring your nation isn't a crime, but that shouldn't mean that you gloss over it's inconsistencies. It's like arguing whether HL2 is better than Stalker or Doom3, all have good points over each other. The smart thing to do is to put aside favouritism and seek out the best from all to move towards a better engine.

I never said my nation is perfect. If you back as my earlier post, you'll see I said the exact opposite.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
You mistake tyrants for communists. If you want to discuss scales instead of policies/teachings have a look at the Bible and weigh up the death toll that's brought to the world. I think we might have a winner.

The Bible doesn't promote the mass murdering of those who oppose, and neither does the Koran.

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
You mistake tyrants for communists. Would you class the teachings of the Koran as evil based on the actions of Osama Bin Laden? Because that is what you are effectively trying to do in your 'arguments'. If you want to discuss scales instead of policies/teachings have a look at the Bible and weigh up the death toll that's brought to the world. I think we might have a winner.

There are plenty more examples of outstanding foreign policy aside from the Cuba one. Pretty much every modern dicator going has been backed financially by the american government at one stage or another, the hand might not be on the trigger, but it certainly paid for the bullets.

well i wasn't "arguing" i was just pointing out extra facts.

but if you want to get into that, i'm arguing human nature. when any one person or group is given too much power and radical ideas about what to do with it, history has shown that it results in the deaths of millions of people.

hitler
stalin
chairman mao
spanish inquisition

i never said capitalism and america were perfect...they're far from it, of course. like many people have said, communism doesn't work because it requires everyone to agree.

communism/socialism is an ideal to work towards...that's basically what the chinese are doing now...they've realised that it doesn't work right now...so they have a mixed system with the goal of eventually pure communism.

 

[Maskirovka]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
The Bible doesn't promote the mass murdering of those who oppose, and neither does the Koran.

no, none of the major religions teach that. it's the people who manipulate those ideals that are scary...and that happens with increased power.

you can equate communism and capitalism to orgainzed religion...they really are belief systems when you think about it.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Maskirovka
no, none of the major religions teach that. it's the people who manipulate those ideals that are scary...and that happens with increased power.

you can equate communism and capitalism to orgainzed religion...they really are belief systems when you think about it.

True dat.
Communism is none the less dangerous. In that it promotes domination, limitations on achievements, and gives power to one person.

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
True dat.
Communism is none the less dangerous. In that it promotes domination, limitations on achievements, and gives power to one person.

You really need to read up on the subject of socialist theory rather than drawing your conclusions from the history books, they are remarkably naive as to the principles and operating ideas behind it.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

The idea of Communism may have a beautiful meaning behind it, but even the idea is dangerous. No human being has the right to decide another's career, life-style, etc. I'll be damned if another human being will ever tell me what my life is about, what my goals are, and what I care about.

 

[iamironsam]

I don't wanna discuss politics and world issues anymore, but you should check this comic strip out, it's pretty funny:

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I found bits of that comic to be funny, just because I enjoy extreme sarcasm. However; I think some may find it offensive, especially the part about God.

Thanks for at least trying!
Sorry, you don't wanna talk with us anymore.

 

[iamironsam]

Yah, sarcasm is all it really has going for it, and Voltron. I certainly don't read it for it's clipart.

I didn't mean to sound insulting about not wanting to discuss politics.

Voltron

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I can't say I really got into it, because I support the war. But I like the sarcastic overtones, and Voltron!
No insult taken, I'm just sad.

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
No human being has the right to decide another's career, life-style, etc. I'll be damned if another human being will ever tell me what my life is about, what my goals are, and what I care about.

Talking of which and corect me if I'm wrong, but isn't Socialism outlawed in the US? You have no socialist political party at all?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

In formal politics, yes. As far as Socialists views, those are not outlawed. Individual politics are not prohibited, because it would be unconstitutional and wrong. Formal Socialism is because it's not a democratic form of Govt. Thus, it would be a contradiction for the US to have a Communist Party. Trust me, there are many Communist organizations in the US, such as the Socialist Athiests For Peace. There are many underground, violent Socialist organizations all over the world as well.

BTW: I like your Sig.

 

[chili pepper]

Originally posted by Tr0n
If we didn't care why did we liberate them in the first place.Why are we waisting 80 billion dollars of tax payers money on them???Please tell me???

That $80 billion is going straight into the pockets of people like Dick Cheney who works for Halliburton Oil and other corrupt American companies doing business in 'Iraq.' I don't think its a coincidence that the biggest US contributors to the Republican Party were the same ones who were awarded all the Iraq contracts.

The Iraqi people will be lucky to ever see a dime of that money. War is another way of transferring wealth from the poor and middle-class to the wealthy. You could call it a form of mass legalized theft. Guess who is putting up that $80 billion of tacpayer money? The poor and middle-class because the wealthy don't pay taxes (in theory they do but they usually get away with not paying taxes because they use sneaky tax loopholes and offshore addresses to avoid paying taxes).

Don't be so naive to think they did all that for the Iraqis. If the US is so concerned about human rights, why doesn't it go invade Saudi Arabia, where they still perform public beheadings and where women get stoned to death for adultery??

The real purpose of the Iraq war is to put more money into the pockets of the wealthy using our tax dollars. Like I said, legalized theft.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I'm not sure it's so much as to benefit the wealthy, as it is to benefit our oil supply.

 

[chili pepper]

Oil supply got nothing to do with it. Iraq was willing to sell us all the oil we wanted to buy from it before we invaded. In fact, we were buying millions of barrels from Iraq just before the invasion.

The real purpose of the invasion is to line the pockets of people like Cheney and his friends. Just think once US companies control Iraqi crude they no longer have to buy it from Iraq (US is now basically getting it for free). Their profit margin goes way up.

And since the US now owns/controls the Iraqi oil they can also profit from selling it to other nations that need oil and what nation doesn't depend on oil. And just imagine the kind of political power now wielded when you control an essential scarce resource that most of the world needs. You can basically rule the world (like Hitler wanted to do). The Iraqis suffer because the US has just deprived them of their livelihood.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
I'm not sure it's so much as to benefit the wealthy, as it is to benefit our oil supply.

how else would "rich people" line they're pockets?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by chili pepper
Oil supply got nothing to do with it. Iraq was willing to sell us all the oil we wanted to buy from it before we invaded. In fact, we were buying millions of barrels from Iraq just before the invasion.

The real purpose of the invasion is to line the pockets of people like Cheney and his friends. Just think once US companies control Iraqi crude they no longer have to buy it from Iraq (US is now basically getting it for free). Their profit margin goes way up.

And since the US now owns/controls the Iraqi oil they can also profit from selling it to other nations that need oil and what nation doesn't depend on oil. And just imagine the kind of political power now wielded when you control an essential scarce resource that most of the world needs. You can basically rule the world (like Hitler wanted to do). The Iraqis suffer because the US has just deprived them of their livelihood.

Umm, we don't have control over their oil. And if we started dipping into it, the rest of the world would come down on us in a heartbeat. But either way, the real purpose doesn't make the positive outcome deniable. Iraq is now free from the reign of an oppressive dictator. That's my main argument about that, and this conversation went into the dangers & benefits of Communism. A conversation I enjoy more than arguing about Iraq.

And I'd like to continue speaking with Polokov, in particular; He's as stubborn as I.

 

[chili pepper]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
Umm, we don't have control over their oil. And if we started dipping into it, the rest of the world would come down on us in a heartbeat. But either way, the real purpose doesn't make the positive outcome deniable. Iraq is now free from the reign of an oppressive dictator. That's my main argument about that, and this conversation went into the dangers & benefits of Communism. A conversation I enjoy more than arguing about Iraq.

And I'd like to continue speaking with Polokov, in particular; He's as stubborn as I.

The rest of the world is well aware of what the US is up to. The UN has already come down on the US for invading Iraq in the first place. The rest of the world has strongly condemned the invasion. But nothing they can do about it except complain loudly, since the US is the biggest bully on the block with the biggest gun.

Again, if you thought the invasion of Iraq was for the benefit of the Iraqi people, you are naive and mistaken. In a recent CNN poll, most Iraqis say they didn't like Saddam, but they hate Bush more and say they are worst off after the invasion. Iraqis by and large think that Bush is a liar who is no better than Saddam. They would be correct. Bush rigged the election in Florida so do you think he gives a damn about bringing democracy to Iraq? He doesn't give a damn about having it here in the US!

American troops are still dying and getting maimed on a daily basis so I don't see no great love in Iraq for Bush or the US forces in Iraq. Yeah, they sure do love us Iraq don't they? And don't give me this 'its just a few insurgents BS.' If it were just a few, we would have taken care of it a long time ago. Thats the same line of crap they gave when the Vietnam War started a war that dragged on for ten years with tens of thousands of US troops dying for nothing.

But whatever just keep living in your dream fairytale world it must be easier than thinking. Let the gov't do all the thinking for you.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

First of all: I don't give a damn what CNN says. Second of all, I never said the invasion was for the benefit of the Iraqi people...I said the exact opposite. I was just saying the outcome was positive. You people just don't listen, do you?

I never let anyone do my thinking for me, especially the Govt., so don't state that. I also don't think it's right for you to condescend, you and I have different opinions; Deal with it.

EDIT: Just remembered; Do you remember when CNN admitted to hiding evidence about what Saddam was doing to civilians? Huh, because I do. Don't you think that if they'll hide evidence of crimes against humanity, that they would lie on a poll? Not saying it's absolute fabrication, I'm sure a large amount of Iraqis feel that way; I'm just certain CNN tilted the scale in their favor.

 

[ComradeBadger]

It's funny, a newsnight reporter went around Iraq, for a week, interviewing people, and got an overall favourable response with regards to the US. (Newsnight has a very good reputation, and have never fabricated anything)

 

[Kadayi]

Originally posted by GhostValkyrie
And I'd like to continue speaking with Polokov, in particular; He's as stubborn as I.

We've already done the oil issue a few pages back. Going over that again would be repetition.

 

[ComradeBadger]

No, he's talking about the Communism issue.

Read the first post of this thread to magically discover why I think Communism wouldn't work.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
We've already done the oil issue a few pages back. Going over that again would be repetition.

That's what I was saying. I don't want to get back into the Iraq discussion; I enjoyed talking with you about the Socialism, Govt. effects, etc.