new abuse claims

A2597 · Jun 9, 2004

yea...like yahoo news is reliable...

seinfeldrules · Jun 9, 2004

Ahhh here we go. You're right. I was mistaken about Lynch. Here is the man who perpetrated her actions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121140,00.html

*Dont cry because it is fox news, I promise it wont hurt to read.

He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Major Arnold Strong, public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard, said during a telephone interview Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."

His name was Sgt. Donald Walters of Salem, Ore. A true American hero. Ill try to find a CNN link to make you all happy. Heaven forbid anything fox reports be taken for truth.

EDIT: Here you go. CNN and proof that Iraqis commited attrocities. I accepted my fault about Lynch stern, now will you accept your incorrect viewpoint on Saddam?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/27/iraq.pow/

seinfeldrules · Jun 10, 2004

Any comment Stern?

The Mullinator · Jun 10, 2004

I suspect hes sleeping right now.

MultiVaC · Jun 10, 2004

God damn, do you guys think actually the way Saddam treated POWs has **** all to do with how we should treat ours? It's totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.

seinfeldrules · Jun 10, 2004

The Mullinator said:
I suspect hes sleeping right now.

Nah, he had posted in another topic. People like him and clarky just happen to find something else to do whenever they begin to lose. No sportsmanship :hmph:

Pogrom · Jun 10, 2004

seinfeldrules said:
Nah, he had posted in another topic. People like him and clarky just happen to find something else to do whenever they begin to lose. No sportsmanship :hmph:

What, exactly, does Saddam's treatment of prisoners have to do with OUR treatment of prisoners?

If he starts bombing hospitals, does that mean we can do it too? Only slightly less seriously, because we're the good guys

Javert · Jun 10, 2004

I am going to further the question to seinfeld. IF Saddam's atrocities have ANY relevance to our atrocities, does it therefore in some way excuse or permit ours?

I say that the answer is no, because it lowers us to his despicable level.

Only slightly less seriously, because we're the good guys

Sure we are...

(agreeing sarcasm.)

Lil' Timmy · Jun 10, 2004

seinfeldrules said:
I accepted my fault about Lynch stern, now will you accept your incorrect viewpoint on Saddam?

um, stern never claimed that saddam didn't commit attrocities, nor that he would not have tortured POWs if he had had the chance. this was a disagreement only in your mind.

and of course, as others have pointed out, this is completely irrelevant to how we should treat our POWs.

CptStern · Jun 10, 2004

seinfeldrules said:
Nah, he had posted in another topic. People like him and clarky just happen to find something else to do whenever they begin to lose. No sportsmanship :hmph:

no, I was on my way out and havent been online since. I dont run away from debates and sure as hell dont run away when I think I'm losing although in this case you dont have a leg to stand on. Pogrom, Lil' Timmy, Javert and ElFuhrer already pointed out that I never said Saddam hadnt commited atrocities not that I think he wouldnt were it not for the fact he's probably in some hallucinogenic mindfcuk trip courtesy of the CIA torturers.

Pogrom · Jun 10, 2004

Update on Abuses

I just read this news article:

In one case an Iraqi prisoner smuggled a gun into the Abu Grahib prison. When he was discovered, the American soldiers shot him in both of his legs. After disarming the prisoner, the soldiers in question proceeded to beat him on his wounds.

Following the beating, the prisoner was suspended from the ceiling using handcuffs. He was left in this position until both his shoulders became dislocated.

While it probably wasn't the smartest thing to smuggle a gun into a prison, that HAS to be going overboard.

If he was an immediate danger to the prison authorities, then shooting and disarming him was enough. Anything more is just gratuitous. I'd expect such behaviour from terrorists, but I thought America was supposed to stand for something better.

CptStern · Jun 10, 2004

that level of violence can only be the product of hate. You have to ask yourself why do they hate the iraqi POW's? I think it's because too many americans think saddam was behind 9/11 and the abuse is payback. This level of abuse and torture sickens me, no matter who are the perpertrators. The fact that the US bills themselves as "liberators of the oppressed people of iraq" makes the abuse that much insidious and shocking.

Pogrom · Jun 10, 2004

CptStern said:
that level of violence can only be the product of hate. You have to ask yourself why do they hate the iraqi POW's? I think it's because too many americans think saddam was behind 9/11 and the abuse is payback. This level of abuse and torture sickens me, no matter who are the perpertrators. The fact that the US bills themselves as "liberators of the oppressed people of iraq" makes the abuse that much insidious and shocking.

Indeed. Although I'm not totally sure it is hate. Studies done on those soldiers in Vietnam who commmited atrocities revealed some interesting facts:

When there is a significant cultural difference, it is easier to strip an enemy's humanity away. Such abuses and tortures are then not being committed upon another person, they are being committed upon a thing - The ENEMY.

Also the huge stresses that the soldiers are under would have hastened this process. Having to live with the threat of attack everyday, being unable to distinguish civilian from foe. After a while the two (civilian and enemy) become blurred. That's when atrocities happen.

CptStern · Jun 10, 2004

time for a changing of the guard. There needs to be more safegaurds against this sort of thing.

Pogrom · Jun 10, 2004

CptStern said:
time for a changing of the guard. There needs to be more safegaurds against this sort of thing.

Well, unless the Patriot Act (a more misguided name there never was) is defeated, it looks like those in power will have 'safeguarded' themselves against any form of dissent.

It is amazing in this day and age that someone who protests the war and the current administration are called unpatriotic! When the fellow who brought down Nixon says that the current administration is the "most secretive ever", then you know it's the pot calling the kettle black!

Ah well - got to stop chatting. This thesis won't write itself, you know!

CptStern · Jun 10, 2004

Pogrom said:
Well, unless the Patriot Act (a more misguided name there never was) is defeated, it looks like those in power will have 'safeguarded' themselves against any form of dissent.

It is amazing in this day and age that someone who protests the war and the current administration are called unpatriotic! When the fellow who brought down Nixon says that the current administration is the "most secretive ever", then you know it's the pot calling the kettle black!

Ah well - got to stop chatting. This thesis won't write itself, you know!

this poster pretty much sums it up

oh and get back to your thesis, stop wasting your time with us bored hl2 fans

seinfeldrules · Jun 11, 2004

Ahhh here we go. You're right. I was mistaken about Lynch. Here is the man who perpetrated her actions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121140,00.html

*Dont cry because it is fox news, I promise it wont hurt to read.

Quote:
He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Major Arnold Strong, public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard, said during a telephone interview Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."

His name was Sgt. Donald Walters of Salem, Ore. A true American hero. Ill try to find a CNN link to make you all happy. Heaven forbid anything fox reports be taken for truth.

EDIT: Here you go. CNN and proof that Iraqis commited attrocities. I accepted my fault about Lynch stern, now will you accept your incorrect viewpoint on Saddam?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/27/iraq.pow/

In case you 'missed' it Stern.

seinfeldrules · Jun 11, 2004

Well, unless the Patriot Act (a more misguided name there never was) is defeated, it looks like those in power will have 'safeguarded' themselves against any form of dissent.

It is amazing in this day and age that someone who protests the war and the current administration are called unpatriotic! When the fellow who brought down Nixon says that the current administration is the "most secretive ever", then you know it's the pot calling the kettle black!

Ah well - got to stop chatting. This thesis won't write itself, you know!

Again, not even the ACLU can find a SINGLE abuse of the Patriot Act. Is that the new hitline for everything?

"My cat died. Damn that Patriot Act, Bush is at it again!" Its ridiculous.

seinfeldrules · Jun 11, 2004

I am going to further the question to seinfeld. IF Saddam's atrocities have ANY relevance to our atrocities, does it therefore in some way excuse or permit ours?

Here is my question to you fellows: Did I ever claim that it was relevant? I was merely responding to Stern's claim that Saddam's troops were not willing to commit the same type of treatment.

huh? there is no proof that american POW's are treated like that...I might be wrong but I really dont remember anything about american POW's being abused

:rolling:

Furthermore, remember the Americans involved in this incident are being prosecuted for their actions. This investigation has voluntarily been handed up to a high ranking 3 or 4 star general so he has full authority to investigate to the top of the prison command chain. Can you say the same for Saddam's cronies? Nah, they were promoted for performing such acts. That is what seperates America from people like Saddam. That answer your question?

Everyone seems so keen to criticize America for our actions. Why not applaud our responsibility to fix them? We are not a perfect people :cheers: (and contrary to your opinions, Europe isnt either

). The investigations have been ongoing for long before the pictures were released to the media, so dont think up any conspiracy theories, as many seem so happy to do.

Javert · Jun 11, 2004

Here is my question to you fellows: Did I ever claim that it was relevant? I was merely responding to Stern's claim that Saddam's troops were not willing to commit the same type of treatment.

You didn't answer my question! It Was your counter-argument bringing in Saddam's atrocities in response and comparison to our atrocities.

While it probably wasn't the smartest thing to smuggle a gun into a prison, that HAS to be going overboard.

I honestly don't think so. Sneaking a gun into a prison, I'd give him lashes or the cooler.

seinfeldrules · Jun 11, 2004

You didn't answer my question! It Was your counter-argument bringing in Saddam's atrocities in response and comparison to our atrocities.

Where?

10characters

Sparta · Jun 11, 2004

CptStern said:
that level of violence can only be the product of hate. You have to ask yourself why do they hate the iraqi POW's? I think it's because too many americans think saddam was behind 9/11 and the abuse is payback. This level of abuse and torture sickens me, no matter who are the perpertrators. The fact that the US bills themselves as "liberators of the oppressed people of iraq" makes the abuse that much insidious and shocking.

The abuse is sickening, but its not as bad as what happened under Saddam's rule. Also weren't you the guy who said the majority of the US occupation force in Iraq is full of "bad apples"?

Sai · Jun 11, 2004

man, i don't like america guys, ever since i moved here it's been idiot white redneck after idiot white redneck ruleing in a not at all, civil way. as things are going right now, i want people to vote for ralph nader next election (probably only americans know who he is)

seinfeldrules · Jun 11, 2004

If you dont like it, then leave. Honestly, what is keeping you?

Johan_Tayn · Jun 11, 2004

I'm tired of the idiots that don't understand what incredible pressure the soldiers have to face each and every day. Plus I'm sick of the never ceasing coverage of the prisoner "abuse" cases. Things to consider: People who know what they're talking about have said many times that they would hope that if they were captured, this was the worst that they would face(an unrational wish as the rebels/terrorists have no rules regarding prisoners. In fact, it is assumed that if you are a female prisoner, you get raped. Sickos..).

Iraq is now a free country; Free from the ilk of the Hussains who tortured/killed/threatend/raped/maimed/dismembered/imprisoned for political reasons thousands of innocent Iraqis. The US is not getting any benefits out of this so far(gas is going up and up and I thought this was a for Oil, right? WRONG....), in fact we're sick and tired of it and want out; But we can't/couldn't go until there is a proper government there or we will have singlehandedly(with help from our faithful allies) have created the largest haven for terrorists on earth(no government, no leader, just factions looting, burning, stealing, raping, killing, and just all around breaking stuff). The only benefit I see for us anytime soon is a Democratic Iraq. Which is good.

Something most people don't know or want to know or haven't been told: Soldiers over there deal with some of the sickest murderers/rapists on recent records(hopefully not written record) and it is all they can do to not shoot the guilty in the back of his head and say he was running. By the powers that be, the rules are you may not shoot back unless you are basically shot.

Let me explain; The Iraqi people are people who love to shoot off their guns when they're happy. One of the worst outbreaks of violence came one night when the national Iraqi soccer team won a game. Shooting off guns happens often at weddings and funerals alike; Lots of the time, some wise guys take potshots at the soldiers(thank God they don't have any guts or aim). THis is HORRIBLE STRESS.

These prisoners are not the oft mentioned Sacred and Holy Islam male, they are rapists, murderers, and thieves.

Thankfully, they don't have any guts for a gun battle. Where do I get that? Well, from a coversation I heard with a soldier who had just come from Iraq(who threw about 200 guys into Al Gharib personally). He said he is more scared now than when he was over there in Iraq. The media is so twisted and biased in the way they always show frightened soldiers, murderered children, homeless grandmothers, and young soldiers dead for "a meaningless war" that he actually feels more frightened when he watches TV than when he was over in Iraq. He said that the rebels will take shot at you, but they have no stomach for a gun battle when lead starts flying back at them(where do you think we get all these POWs?).

Just blowing off a bit of steam at the filthy liberal TV networks(am I the only one who finds it ironic that one of the networks is called CBS[think about it]).

GO RUSH LIMBAUGH AND THE REST OF THE MESSENGERS OF TRUTH!!

CptStern · Jun 11, 2004

Johan_Tayn said:
I'm tired of the idiots that don't understand what incredible pressure the soldiers have to face each and every day. Plus I'm sick of the never ceasing coverage of the prisoner "abuse" cases. Things to consider: People who know what they're talking about have said many times that they would hope that if they were captured, this was the worst that they would face(an unrational wish as the rebels/terrorists have no rules regarding prisoners. In fact, it is assumed that if you are a female prisoner, you get raped. Sickos..).

Iraq is now a free country; Free from the ilk of the Hussains who tortured/killed/threatend/raped/maimed/dismembered/imprisoned for political reasons thousands of innocent Iraqis. The US is not getting any benefits out of this so far(gas is going up and up and I thought this was a for Oil, right? WRONG....), in fact we're sick and tired of it and want out; But we can't/couldn't go until there is a proper government there or we will have singlehandedly(with help from our faithful allies) have created the largest haven for terrorists on earth(no government, no leader, just factions looting, burning, stealing, raping, killing, and just all around breaking stuff). The only benefit I see for us anytime soon is a Democratic Iraq. Which is good.

Something most people don't know or want to know or haven't been told: Soldiers over there deal with some of the sickest murderers/rapists on recent records(hopefully not written record) and it is all they can do to not shoot the guilty in the back of his head and say he was running. By the powers that be, the rules are you may not shoot back unless you are basically shot.

Let me explain; The Iraqi people are people who love to shoot off their guns when they're happy. One of the worst outbreaks of violence came one night when the national Iraqi soccer team won a game. Shooting off guns happens often at weddings and funerals alike; Lots of the time, some wise guys take potshots at the soldiers(thank God they don't have any guts or aim). THis is HORRIBLE STRESS.

These prisoners are not the oft mentioned Sacred and Holy Islam male, they are rapists, murderers, and thieves.

Thankfully, they don't have any guts for a gun battle. Where do I get that? Well, from a coversation I heard with a soldier who had just come from Iraq(who threw about 200 guys into Al Gharib personally). He said he is more scared now than when he was over there in Iraq. The media is so twisted and biased in the way they always show frightened soldiers, murderered children, homeless grandmothers, and young soldiers dead for "a meaningless war" that he actually feels more frightened when he watches TV than when he was over in Iraq. He said that the rebels will take shot at you, but they have no stomach for a gun battle when lead starts flying back at them(where do you think we get all these POWs?).

Just blowing off a bit of steam at the filthy liberal TV networks(am I the only one who finds it ironic that one of the networks is called CBS[think about it]).

GO RUSH LIMBAUGH AND THE REST OF THE MESSENGERS OF TRUTH!!

no.. really?

edit: I'd like to add a :rolling:

Javert · Jun 11, 2004

seinfeldrules said:
Where?

10characters

You're first reply in this thread.

Pogrom · Jun 11, 2004

Javert said:
I honestly don't think so. Sneaking a gun into a prison, I'd give him lashes or the cooler.

You would give him lashes or the cooler, but you still think shooting him, bashing his gunshot wounds, and hanging him until his shoulders dislocated not going overboard?

seinfeldrules said:
Again, not even the ACLU can find a SINGLE abuse of the Patriot Act. Is that the new hitline for everything?

If so, then why are so many cities rejecting the Patriot Act? Why are so many Congressmen (and women) shocked when they actually read what they voted for?

seinfeldrules said:
Furthermore, remember the Americans involved in this incident are being prosecuted for their actions. This investigation has voluntarily been handed up to a high ranking 3 or 4 star general so he has full authority to investigate to the top of the prison command chain. Can you say the same for Saddam's cronies? Nah, they were promoted for performing such acts. That is what seperates America from people like Saddam. That answer your question?

The difference is that Saddam didn't pretend to be the good guys. He didn't say he would 'liberate' the Iraqi people, then completely denigrate their race. You just don't understand. Quite apart from the horrific injuries some of the Iraqi detainees sustained; the actions forced upon them are abjectly shaming.

Ask yourself if it is humane to make someone feel like they are less than shit. Less than the lowest animal on the face of the earth. Plus to have that kind of indepth knowledge of the Iraqi psyche, it was NOT the result of a few 'bad apples'.

You stated that people are being prosecuted. Does that include those at the top of the chain of command who endorsed torture? John Ashcroft, Donald Rumsfeld? The ones who said they can selectively apply the Geneva convention, and torture if they want to? Did you read that memo?

You stated that a '3 or 4 star general' would be investigating. Great - the army investigating the army. If it was a political party they would NEVER get away with an internal investigation.

What are they afraid of, that they won't allow an independant investigation?

Pogrom · Jun 11, 2004

Johan_Tayn said:
I'm tired of the idiots that don't understand what incredible pressure the soldiers have to face each and every day. Plus I'm sick of the never ceasing coverage of the prisoner "abuse" cases. Things to consider: People who know what they're talking about have said many times that they would hope that if they were captured, this was the worst that they would face(an unrational wish as the rebels/terrorists have no rules regarding prisoners. In fact, it is assumed that if you are a female prisoner, you get raped. Sickos..).

Well, you're gonna have to put up with hearing about the torture/abuse cases. That's what a democracy is - keeping the bastards honest. Once we stop questioning what is being done in OUR name (the name of OUR country) then we become those who endorse it.

Johan_Tayn said:
Iraq is now a free country; Free from the ilk of the Hussains who tortured/killed/threatend/raped/maimed/dismembered/imprisoned for political reasons thousands of innocent Iraqis. The US is not getting any benefits out of this so far(gas is going up and up and I thought this was a for Oil, right? WRONG....), in fact we're sick and tired of it and want out; But we can't/couldn't go until there is a proper government there or we will have singlehandedly(with help from our faithful allies) have created the largest haven for terrorists on earth(no government, no leader, just factions looting, burning, stealing, raping, killing, and just all around breaking stuff). The only benefit I see for us anytime soon is a Democratic Iraq. Which is good.

You already have created the largest haven for terrorists on earth. It is called the Middle East, which you have so happily managed to alienate.

The US is not getting any benefit, huh? Well, I suppose that is what you get when you view the world through the lens of ideology, instead of realism.

(no government, no leader, just factions looting, burning, stealing, raping, killing, and just all around breaking stuff).

Hmmm, sounds familiar... What does that remind me of... Aha! I have it! Afghanistan! Ah yes. Another sterling example of the USA nation-building in action.

Johan_Tayn said:
Something most people don't know or want to know or haven't been told: Soldiers over there deal with some of the sickest murderers/rapists on recent records(hopefully not written record) and it is all they can do to not shoot the guilty in the back of his head and say he was running. By the powers that be, the rules are you may not shoot back unless you are basically shot.

Maybe they are dealing with some terrible human beings. But according to the Red Cross, at least 75% of all people detained in Iraq are innocent.

Johan_Tayn said:
Let me explain; The Iraqi people are people who love to shoot off their guns when they're happy. One of the worst outbreaks of violence came one night when the national Iraqi soccer team won a game. Shooting off guns happens often at weddings and funerals alike; Lots of the time, some wise guys take potshots at the soldiers(thank God they don't have any guts or aim). THis is HORRIBLE STRESS.

I am more of the thought that the horrible stress is making the American soldiers believe they are under fire, when in fact they aren't.

Johan_Tayn said:
These prisoners are not the oft mentioned Sacred and Holy Islam male, they are rapists, murderers, and thieves.

Thankfully, they don't have any guts for a gun battle. Where do I get that? Well, from a coversation I heard with a soldier who had just come from Iraq(who threw about 200 guys into Al Gharib personally). He said he is more scared now than when he was over there in Iraq. The media is so twisted and biased in the way they always show frightened soldiers, murderered children, homeless grandmothers, and young soldiers dead for "a meaningless war" that he actually feels more frightened when he watches TV than when he was over in Iraq. He said that the rebels will take shot at you, but they have no stomach for a gun battle when lead starts flying back at them(where do you think we get all these POWs?).

Just blowing off a bit of steam at the filthy liberal TV networks(am I the only one who finds it ironic that one of the networks is called CBS[think about it]).

GO RUSH LIMBAUGH AND THE REST OF THE MESSENGERS OF TRUTH!!

I don't think this part is even worth rebutting.

Korgoth · Jun 11, 2004

haha rush limbaugh messenger of truth? more like drug addict of truth... But you just go ahead and believe every word that lying junkie tells you!

CptStern · Jun 11, 2004

latest news on abuse:

Use of Dogs to Scare Prisoners Was Authorized

CptStern · Jun 11, 2004

seems like they have something to hide

SubKamran · Jun 11, 2004

All I can say is that I hope Bush is out next election.

This is wrong, and I hope the higher-ups will be punished. "Oh, um, hehe, didn't see that paper about abuse there...huh? Um, it's been there since January, but you know, there's more important stuff...like oil...and liberating Iraq!"

Bull. Shizit.

Pogrom · Jun 11, 2004

I just simply cannot believe the stuff that they keep coming up with.

Why are they still in power?

pat_thetic · Jun 11, 2004

SubKamran said:
...like oil...

Holy shit. How many times do we have to prove this argument wrong?

CptStern · Jun 11, 2004

pat_thetic said:
Holy shit. How many times do we have to prove this argument wrong?

I'd like to see you try

The Mullinator · Jun 11, 2004

CptStern said:
I'd like to see you try

Its not proof obviously and it doesn't even try to be but it is a little bit of evidence.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040606/ap_on_bi_ge/iraq_cheap_gas_4

Read the last couple of paragraphs, if it could take years to get Iraq back to pre-1991 level oil productions then I wouldn't have called the Iraqi invasion a smart move if gaining oil was its goal, and being big oil tycoons that the US is I am sure they knew this.

pat_thetic · Jun 11, 2004

I'd like to see you try to prove to me that they are.

CptStern · Jun 11, 2004

pat_thetic said:
I'd like to see you try to prove to me that they are.

i asked first

oh and they dont want to take the oil, they want control, big difference

seinfeldrules · Jun 14, 2004

You stated that people are being prosecuted. Does that include those at the top of the chain of command who endorsed torture? John Ashcroft, Donald Rumsfeld? The ones who said they can selectively apply the Geneva convention, and torture if they want to? Did you read that memo?

Do you honestly think Rumsfeld was sitting up there micromanaging an insignificant prison somehwere in Iraq? Pulling the little puppet strings was he? Again, the Geneva convention does not apply to terrorists.

Finally, I noticed stern STILL refuses to admit that Saddam treated our prisoners worse. Wow, if that isnt the utmost extreme liberal on the planet...

If you still are going on about oil, I suggest you read the UN resolutions passed upon that situation. It should clear up yet another unfounded conspiracy theory.

The difference is that Saddam didn't pretend to be the good guys. He didn't say he would 'liberate' the Iraqi people, then completely denigrate their race. You just don't understand. Quite apart from the horrific injuries some of the Iraqi detainees sustained; the actions forced upon them are abjectly shaming.

So you are turning one scandal into the entire Iraqi nation. Wow. Thats like saying the entire European continent is rampant with rapists if one man is convicted of rape.

new abuse claims

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