new abuse claims

[Warbie]

Well he is the President of my country. It better damn well matter what he does in his personal life. If he can cheat on something so serious as marriage, what else was he cheating as President? Probably the American people and the world.

Surely the two can be seperate issues. History is filled with 'great' leaders who weren't perfect fathers/husbands etc. If my I remember correctly Churchill was a bit of bastard, but did that really matter? In the scale of things, not at all.

Cheating on your spouse isn't a nice thing to do ........ but that's all. It's certainly not a serious matter, and can't be compared to being a corrupt politician.

(maybe Hillary didn't put out anymore - who knows? )

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yes, this war while Saddam was still in power. Read over the first few pages and you will see that he obviously was referring to Saddam. And, though I proved Saddam abused his prisoners, I also proved Iraqis did the same thing. In any case I was correct and my apology....

 

[Lil' Timmy]

post to me some links about saddam's treatment of US POWs during this war. i'm not going to dig through the pages to find it, if such a link exists.

wasn't saddam out of power within the first few hours of our shock and awe?

 

[seinfeldrules]

He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Major Arnold Strong, public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard, said during a telephone interview Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."

His name was Sgt. Donald Walters of Salem, Ore. A true American hero. Ill try to find a CNN link to make you all happy. Heaven forbid anything fox reports be taken for truth.

EDIT: Here you go. CNN and proof that Iraqis commited attrocities. I accepted my fault about Lynch stern, now will you accept your incorrect viewpoint on Saddam?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/27/iraq.pow/

fedayeen being Saddam's troops.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Apology from Not28 still waiting. As I said, I stand up for my opinions. People like you and not28 clearly dont. From now on dont accuse me of not listening and being unreasonable.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

"fedayeen rebels"? "unknown captors"? (from the cnn article)

dude.. come on..

 

[seinfeldrules]

Pentagon officials announced the details Thursday. Walters' status was changed by the military earlier this month from Killed in Action to POW - Murdered.

His family was notified of the change this week, military officials said.

The investigation is one of several military investigations into possible war crimes committed by Iraqis

God lord, you just refuse to look at the truth.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

you said "saddam", not "iraqis". everyone knows that iraqis have killed american captives.. i thought we were talking about saddam specifically in this war.

edit: what exactly are you trying to prove SR? are you trying to convince us that iraqi insurgents have killed americans? i don't think anyone awake thinks the opposite.

 

[seinfeldrules]

you said "saddam", not "iraqis". everyone knows that iraqis have killed american captives.. i thought we were talking about saddam specifically in this war.

Good lord, you have got to be kidding me. By Saddam I was referring to his regime. You know what I was talking about and your little word game is a monsterous waste of my time. If you feel like standing up for your insult and aplogizing then this debate can continue, but until then; Goodbye.

 

[seinfeldrules]

edit: what exactly are you trying to prove SR? are you trying to convince us that iraqi insurgents have killed americans? i don't think anyone awake thinks the opposite.

GOD READ STERN'S QUOTE. THIS IS THE 4th TIME AND SEINFELD IS TIRED. THE MAN I POSTED WAS KILLED UNDER SADDAM"S REGIME. THE IRAQIS KILLED HIM. CASE CLOSED.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Good lord, you have got to be kidding me. By Saddam I was referring to his regime.

i can't waste your time, only you can do that. anyway, you have yet to prove that saddam's regime was responsible for the torture of american POWs in this war. the article you sighted refers to "unknown captors" and the quote you posted talks about rebels.. neither of which is part of the saddam regime (which actually crumbled very soon after the war started anyway). this has all been said 4-5 time sby now i'm sure.. it's simple to understand i think, i don't know why you are having such trouble with this.

edit: oh wait, the case has been closed.. nevermind then

 

[seinfeldrules]

anyway, you have yet to prove that saddam's regime was responsible for the torture of american POWs in this war.

Pentagon officials announced the details Thursday. Walters' status was changed by the military earlier this month from Killed in Action to POW - Murdered.

His family was notified of the change this week, military officials said.

The investigation is one of several military investigations into possible war crimes committed by Iraqis

Do you need reading glasses, or is your brain too thick to interpret such data?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

i've already addressed this repetion. keep repeating what has already been dealt with if you wish.

 

[seinfeldrules]

At the beginning stages of the war Al Qaeda and other organizations did not have rebels in place to perform such acts, so it must of been the Iraqis in any case. Now, apologize and move on to move pressing matter.s.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

so any iraqis who are fighting are part of saddam's regime?

 

[seinfeldrules]

so any iraqis who are fighting are part of saddam's regime?

Fighting against the Americans in the beggining stages of the war? 99% yes. And, as you said, it says Iraqi in his quote. So I was correct and my apology anytime now..

 

[Lil' Timmy]

dude, seriously, you need to let it go.

you have not proven that saddam tortured US POWs in this war. your references are to "unknown captors" and/or "rebels". neither of these count as saddams regime afaik.

 

[seinfeldrules]

you have not proven that saddam tortured US POWs in this war. your references are to "unknown captors" and/or "rebels". neither of these count as saddams regime afaik.

They are Iraqis. Who else would they have been?

 

[seinfeldrules]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A soldier thought to have been killed in combat in the opening days of Operation Iraqi Freedom was instead murdered by his Iraqi captors, according to a military investigation.

wakjrhskjasdf

 

[Lil' Timmy]

of course they were iraqis (well, most likely), that doesn't prove that it was saddam's regime, which was essentially colapsed before troops even arrived in the country, tbph.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Look at all the proof against Saddam.

Millions of his own people killed.
All POWs from 1st Gulf War tortured.
Millions of his own people tortured.

That is enough evidence for a jury to convict for this murder.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Look at all the proof against Saddam.

Millions of his own people killed.
All POWs from 1st Gulf War tortured.
Millions of his own people tortured.

That is enough evidence for a jury to convict for this murder.

none of that constitutes proof, and you know it. the problem you have is that you can't establish that saddam was even in a capacity to order the murder/torture of US POWs in this war.

remember, this is not an argument about whether or not saddam would have tortured US POWs, rather, it's about whether you can prove that he did. so far, you have not.

 

[seinfeldrules]

http://www.army.mil/features/507thMaintCmpy/

This report describes, in narrative form, the attack on an element of the U.S. Army 507th Maintenance Company by Iraqi military forces and irregulars in the city of An Nasiriyah on 23 March 2003 during OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

Now, in any case, Iraqi military would have meant Saddam military at this point in time. Irregulars with them meant they were collaborating with Saddam. Enough evidence?

 

[seinfeldrules]

He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Major Arnold Strong, public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard, said during a telephone interview Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121140,00.html

This wasnt an opinion of FOX, it was taken as a quote from Maj. Arnold Strong. There, now my apology so I can sleep in peace knowing that at least 1 of the 2 liberals could stand up for what they said.

 

[not28]

Apology from Not28 still waiting. As I said, I stand up for my opinions. People like you and not28 clearly dont. From now on dont accuse me of not listening and being unreasonable.

i apologize for not living on the message board to answer your every beck and call. anyways, that website has already been brought up and dismissed as total speculation. fine, i admit that three democrats want the draft. big ****ing deal, it's not like i think the democrats are any better at handling this country's policy. even so, but out of all u.s. congressmen, three democrats doesn't hold much water. i don't see why i owe you an apology because i am not defending the democrats. like i said, they're just as bad.

 

[seinfeldrules]

better rethink your bullshit political stereotypes

Well thats what you said. I proved you wrong. I think such an extreme statement, when proving incorrect, should be apologized for. Also, had you done any reading, you would notice it to be 15-20 liberal leaders, not just congressmen/women. I understand if you're not man enough to say a simple "Im sorry, I was wrong". Most people cant do that.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

well i finished reading that repot you link SR. it's an interesting synopsis of the attack. of course it does not contain any info on the attackers, in fact it refers to a "source.. which could not be determined". fedayeen rebels are not part of the formal regime, btw. also, the report contains no info about what happened to the captured americans after they were captured. it's an interesting read though.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Fedayeen rebels were extremely loyal saddam supporters and were definitely part of the regime. Need proof?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/fedayeen.htm

I believe that should be argument closed.

PS just to provide a backdrop. Taken from Maj. Strong.

He was executed -- shot twice in the back," Major Arnold Strong, public affairs officer for the Oregon National Guard, said during a telephone interview Thursday. "An Iraqi ambulance driver witnessed six fedayeen rebels standing outside a building guarding him while he was still alive. That same witness evacuated his dead body to a hospital."

I;ll be back to celebrate your apology or admission of being incorrect tomorrow at some point.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

hey, maybe if you post that maj. strong quote for a 15th time, everyone will suddenly belive you!

anyway, you still can't prove that iraqis operating under saddam's orders (directly or otherwise) were responsible for torturing us POWs. you just can't. maybe you should try to prove something else instead.. you're not going to win that one baring some sort of massive revelation.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Well then, hopefully you are not someone who claims Bush in any way had any involvement in Abu Gharib or any other prisoner scandal. Correct?

Off the record it is clear that Saddam had everything to do with the killing. His whole regime was based upon terror and such acts. I cannot comprehend that you think his mentality changed while being invaded of all things. Wow.

 

[Sparta]

Fedayeen rebels were extremely loyal saddam supporters and were definitely part of the regime. Need proof?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/fedayeen.htm

I believe that should be argument closed.

PS just to provide a backdrop. Taken from Maj. Strong.



I;ll be back to celebrate your apology or admission of being incorrect tomorrow at some point.

Dear lord you really are an arrogant jerk aren't you?
I'll sum up your whole argument in one sentence:

Everybody who doesnt agree with me is wrong and a liberal pussy

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Well then, hopefully you are not someone who claims Bush in any way had any involvement in Abu Gharib or any other prisoner scandal. Correct?

well, it sounds like his advisors probably had something to do with it.. but the extent of upper-level involvement is not clear yet.

 

[seinfeldrules]

well, it sounds like his advisors probably had something to do with it.. but the extent of upper-level involvement is not clear yet.

Wow wow wow. You are saying this without any evidence at all, but refuse to believe that someone like Saddam commited atrocities.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Wow wow wow. You are saying this without any evidence at all, but refuse to believe that someone like Saddam commited atrocities.

who doesn't believe saddam commited attrocites.. by suggesting you pick up a new arguement, this is not what i meant :x. holy crap man.. has anyone on these forums ever claimed that saddam did not commit attrocities? i hope you can see that it's tactics like this that make you such a laughing stock..


aren't you going to bed or something?

 

[Pogrom]

seinfeldrules: Why is it so important to you to prove what Saddam did or dod not do?


It STILL has no relevance to the American treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib. If you are going in to remove someone who committed human rights abuses (as the USA claimed after they had invaded), then you should not then commit human rights abuses yourself.

Hell, you shouldn't do them EVER!

Why is America allowed to be above the law?

 

[seinfeldrules]

It STILL has no relevance to the American treatment of prisoners at Abu Grahib. If you are going in to remove someone who committed human rights abuses (as the USA claimed after they had invaded), then you should not then commit human rights abuses yourself.

I never said it did!

Why is America allowed to be above the law?

We arent, hence the people who perpetrated the crimes are being tried in a court of law, I cannot say the same for the people who kill and humiliate Americans around the globe on a daily basis. We are accountable for such actions, most of our enemies are not.

 

[CptStern]

I never said it did!


We arent, hence the people who perpetrated the crimes are being tried in a court of law, I cannot say the same for the people who kill and humiliate Americans around the globe on a daily basis. We are accountable for such actions, most of our enemies are not.

so I guess he'll be charged with abuse as well? link

 

[seinfeldrules]

so I guess he'll be charged with abuse as well? link

Actually, the 3rd Star General in charge of all this stuff can be charged. He specifically requested a General of higher ranking than he be used to investigate so the investigation could be played up as high as possible.

To put it in more understandable language:

Sanchez has asked the Pentagon to appoint a senior investigating general who outranks him, and thus would be authorized to push the probe to the highest rungs of the command ladder, according to the officials.

Sanchez is a three-star general. The incoming investigating general would have to be a four-star general, or a three-star general senior to Sanchez in order to have full authorization to investigate any role that Sanchez and his staff may have played. Senior officials predict the appointee will be a four-star general.

By making the request, Sanchez is not admitting or implying any wrongdoing. The senior Defense officials insist that Sanchez simply wants to be certain that no level of the command chain goes uninvestigated.

With this request, the probe now purportedly goes from the bottom of the command strata — the military police either charged or alleged to have committed abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison facility — directly to Sanchez.

"Gen. Sanchez wants to make sure this is done right," one senior official said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122300,00.html

Seems your opinion was about as wrong as possible huh . This is why you shouldnt believe all your cocky conspiracy theories thrown at you by the liberal media trying to influence your vote.

 

[CptStern]

CIA? they use torture

do me a faour please STOP USING FOXNEWS...fair and balanced my ass

but ya the article was ok

 

[seinfeldrules]

What in the world are you talking about. DId you read any of the post?

Edit: my post beat your edit.