New protest protocol proposed.

[Sam]

what about the police? should protestors be given tranquilizers guns whenever police get needlessly violent?

Yes.

 

[repiV]

Culture generates behavior... why do we wear clothing? Culture. Why do some Islamic women wear veils in the public sphere?.... They are conforming to culture.

repiV, the more you understand their culture... the better you can predict their behavior.

That's right, culture generates behaviour. And I take issue with the behaviour generated by Islamic culture, mostly Middle Eastern Islam.
If Turkey was representative of Islam globally, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Note that since Turkey is a budding EU member, I'm not counting it as the Middle East.

This obscure sect is sizable enough, and is one of many branches of Islam that kept pre-existing beliefs and merged them with practices instituted by the Koran. They are tolerated...

But what are you proving, exactly?
You can't possibly hope to prove with that methodology that Islam is "tolerant". This is the same religion under which women are slaves to men that we're talking about. The same religion under which people of other faiths are mandated to live a degrading existence and are considered lesser in the eyes of the law.

The various divisions of Christianity, the violence between Catholics and Protestants...
Is that tolerance?

No, it is not. However, I think you'll have a hard time equating Northern Ireland with Islamic jihad and dhimmitude.

One could counter the current violence in Iraq between Sunni and Shi'ite muslims... This is true. :-( The origin of such violence though is on the grounds of intolerance, but more so more complicated geopolitical reasons. (Sunni's held power for the duration of Hussein's rule ; Shi'ite's were a majority... etc etc, Iran holds a Shi'ite majority, yadda yadda, not important in our discussion.)

Overall Sunni muslims are the majority in the umma* of Islam, while the Shi'ite's hold a minority. The between controversy the two is as follows:
-Sunni is considered to be pure Islam (centered in Saudi Arabia)
--conversative (contains very conversative branch of Wahhabi Islam)

-Shia is the produce of a schism in the early days of Islam
--Overall they hold the same beliefs, but Shia Islam over emphasized the caliphate Ali and his son Hussein... much like how Catholics over emphasized; so-called saints and Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Shia Islam also possess a hierarchy, ie Ayatollah, were as Sunni Islam does not.

Despite these differences, they have tolerated each other for hundreds of years.

*(Umma is a 100 dollar word for, the world wide community of Muslims)

Thanks for the history lesson...

Attacking one 'religion' is not enough?

Only Buddhism is safe.

 

[15357]

christ...numbers, you country still lives in medieval times! it was like watching braveheart or something...

your police seem incompetent! what happened to water guns and tear gas?

it's like the police wanted to get beaten up. something is seriously wrong with your country!

Tear gas hasn't been used for 16 years because the Human Rights Commission deemed it 'needless use of excessive force.

Water guns can't really be used until the water gun car comes, and the protesters sometimes push it down sideways.

 

[CptStern]

Tear gas hasn't been used for 16 years because the Human Rights Commission deemed it 'needless use of excessive force.

lol the real reason why they dont use it is because it's unpredicable in a crowd ...far too often police officers get caught in it when the wind changes or it disperses too fast ...it's exactly what happened in quebec during the Summit of the Americas ..police fired over 5000 canisters at PEACEFUL protestors over a 3 day period ...people complained of breathing problems miles away from the protest area, people who had nothing to do with the protest ...but you go ahead and believe your spoonfed nonsense and continue being a good little obedient citizen

 

[repiV]

It's not a matter of hope. It's not my intention to change the direction your heart is going... but moreover to plant the seeds of knowledge. Perhaps knowledge will lead to understand.

Claiming that Islam is tolerant isn't knowledge, it's sheer and utter fantasy and ignorance.

Slaves? Did you know what the condition of women was in Arabia, before Islam emerged?

Look at polygyny for instance... before Islam, men could married as many women as he desired. With Islam, a man can only marry up to four wives at a time.... BUT he must provide for each physically, economically and emotionally, fully and equally.

... that's impossible. Dealing with one woman is hard enough as it is... 4, forget about it.

Oh, so it was worse in ancient history than it is now. That's about the worst defence I've ever heard.

Educate me. :stare:

It's called dhimmitude. Considering you claim to know so much about Islam, you shouldn't need educating on the subject.

Alright... how about?
-Genocide of heretics (Could be anyone really.) ;(
-Genocide of practitioners of divination. ;(
-Medieval Jews were isolated from the community forced to wear yellow, I believe, to signify they were the 'killers of Christ'. Other restrictions applied as well. ;(
-Murder of John Hus (for questioning the beliefs of the 'Church') ;(
-Murder and displacement of hundreds of thousands, of French hugenots. ;(
-Destruction of Native American cultures such as the Aztecs and Incans, all in the name of Christendom. ;(
The list goes on, unfortunatelly... ;(

First of all, I said Northern Ireland, not Western civilisation.
Secondly, using the sins of our civilisation hundreds of years ago to justify the sins of Islamic civilisation today is laughable at best and pitiful at worst.

 

[jverne]

First of all, I said Northern Ireland, not Western civilisation.
Secondly, using the sins of our civilisation hundreds of years ago to justify the sins of Islamic civilisation today is laughable at best and pitiful at worst.

repi you seem like a reasonable man, but why do throw out such ignorant crap i'm not entirely sure!

islam is today what we were in the medieval times, they didn't have time to develop, because we don't allow them to! btw to them it's the 15th century today.

 

[kirovman]

to them it's the 15th century today.

Oh... they'll be discovering America soon :O

 

[repiV]

repi you seem like a reasonable man, but why do throw out such ignorant crap i'm not entirely sure!

islam is today what we were in the medieval times, they didn't have time to develop, because we don't allow them to! btw to them it's the 15th century today.

I'd say the 15th century is being a little bit generous but, yes. Islam is today what we were in the medieval times. That's exactly why we should not make room for Islam in our society.
You're doing nothing but supporting my argument...

 

[jverne]

I'd say the 15th century is being a little bit generous but, yes. Islam is today what we were in the medieval times. That's exactly why we should not make room for Islam in our society.
You're doing nothing but supporting my argument...

i agree with you to the point that religions are dogshit. religion must be exterminated,i've got no problem with that. but i got the feeling you threw anyone living in the countries where islam is the majority into the same basket. which is wrong of course. there are atheist in "islam" too. it's just that the west doesn't need them in power.

i have to mention another point. i believe that islam is the most "politically oriented" of the major religions, due to it being the youngest in the bunch.

 

[repiV]

i agree with you to the point that religions are dogshit. religion must be exterminated,i've got no problem with that. but i got the feeling you threw anyone living in the countries where islam is the majority into the same basket. which is wrong of course. there are atheist in "islam" too. it's just that the west doesn't need them in power.

It depends.
Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taleban-contolled Afghanistan, Syria, to name a few? You better not be an atheist if you value your life.
There are a few countries which have an acceptable form of Islam - Turkey, Far Eastern countries etc.
But that doesn't diminish the threat that we face. Islam in Britain is a lot more radical and fundamentalist than Islam in many Muslim countries, and that is surely alarming.

By the way, a Muslim by definition cannot be an atheist.

i have to mention another point. i believe that islam is the most "politically oriented" of the major religions, due to it being the youngest in the bunch.

Islam isn't just a religion. It's an all-encompassing form of totalitarianism that governs every aspect of life.
What you have to realise is that no matter how good a person may be on their own merits, when they immigrate they bring their culture with them. That is unavoidable. It seems that more Muslims come here spreading that culture than escaping it.
Time we woke up to that.

 

[15357]

lol the real reason why they dont use it is because it's unpredicable in a crowd ...far too often police officers get caught in it when the wind changes or it disperses too fast ...it's exactly what happened in quebec during the Summit of the Americas ..police fired over 5000 canisters at PEACEFUL protestors over a 3 day period ...people complained of breathing problems miles away from the protest area, people who had nothing to do with the protest ...but you go ahead and believe your spoonfed nonsense and continue being a good little obedient citizen

Peaceful does not a legal make.

Besides, the police have gas masks.

 

[jverne]

It depends.
Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taleban-contolled Afghanistan, Syria, to name a few? You better not be an atheist if you value your life.
There are a few countries which have an acceptable form of Islam - Turkey, Far Eastern countries etc.
But that doesn't diminish the threat that we face. Islam in Britain is a lot more radical and fundamentalist than Islam in many Muslim countries, and that is surely alarming.

By the way, a Muslim by definition cannot be an atheist.



Islam isn't just a religion. It's an all-encompassing form of totalitarianism that governs every aspect of life.
What you have to realise is that no matter how good a person may be on their own merits, when they immigrate they bring their culture with them. That is unavoidable. It seems that more Muslims come here spreading that culture than escaping it.
Time we woke up to that.

Saudi arabia are a bunch of retarded totalitarist in power. Do you think that if some self aware liberal would be in power we'd get cheap oil. The leaders use the oil money to get filthy rich and what do they give back to the people?

I believe Iran had its chance, before the US intervened back in the 70'.

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was then reinstated as Shah. His rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK.

wikipedia-iran

I don't want to argue Iranian history with you, but it seems as the west supported autocratic goverments.

Afganistan hmm

The longest period of stability in Afghanistan was between 1933 and 1973, when the country was under the rule of King Zahir Shah. However, in 1973, Zahir's brother-in-law, Sardar Mohammed Daoud launched a bloodless coup. Daoud and his entire family were murdered in 1978 when the communist People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan launched a coup known as the Great Saur Revolution and took over the government.
Opposition against, and conflict within, the series of communist governments that followed, was considerable. As part of a Cold War strategy, in 1979 the United States government under President Jimmy Carter and National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski began to covertly fund and train anti-government Mujahideen forces through the Pakistani secret service agency known as Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), who were derived from discontented Muslims in the country who opposed the official atheism of the Marxist regime. In order to bolster the local Communist forces, the Soviet Union—citing the 1978 Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Good Neighborliness that had been signed between the two countries —intervened on December 24, 1979.

The result of the fighting was that the vast majority of the elites and intellectuals had escaped to take refuge abroad, a dangerous leadership vacuum thereby coming into existence. Fighting continued among the various Mujahideen factions, eventually giving rise to a state of warlordism. The most serious fighting during this growing civil conflict occurred in 1994, when 10,000 people were killed in Kabul. The chaos and corruption that dominated post-Soviet Afghanistan in turn spawned the rise of the Taliban, who were mostly Pashtuns from Kandahar.

The Taliban developed as a politico-religious force, and eventually seized Kabul in 1996. By the end of 2000, the Taliban were able to capture 95% of the country, aside from the opposition (Afghan Northern Alliance) strongholds primarily found in the northeast corner of Badakhshan Province. The Taliban sought to impose a strict interpretation of Islamic Sharia law and were later implicated as terrorists, most notably by harbouring and supporting Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network.

Syria...ohh i'm tiered of quoting. wiki it yourself.


Thing is that your approach to this problem is a little to radical. You need to see the whole picture before searching for a solution. The islam we see today is in its most corrupt form possible. I remember once i read somewhere that one of the laws in the in islam is to pursue scientific knowledge. Back in history this showed when the Arabs had way better technology than the west.

My point is that you need to take everything into account before making such a statement. Btw I'm not defending islam.

It may sound contradicting but i still stand on exterminating every form of religion whenever possible.

 

[repiV]

Saudi arabia are a bunch of retarded totalitarist in power. Do you think that if some self aware liberal would be in power we'd get cheap oil. The leaders use the oil money to get filthy rich and what do they give back to the people?

A liberal in power in the Middle East? That wouldn't happen.

I believe Iran had its chance, before the US intervened back in the 70'.



wikipedia-iran

I don't want to argue Iranian history with you, but it seems as the west supported autocratic goverments.

Afganistan hmm







Syria...ohh i'm tiered of quoting. wiki it yourself.


Thing is that your approach to this problem is a little to radical. You need to see the whole picture before searching for a solution. The islam we see today is in its most corrupt form possible. I remember once i read somewhere that one of the laws in the in islam is to pursue scientific knowledge. Back in history this showed when the Arabs had way better technology than the west.

My point is that you need to take everything into account before making such a statement. Btw I'm not defending islam.

It may sound contradicting but i still stand on exterminating every form of religion whenever possible.

I'm not really sure what your point is. The US does bad stuff, but it has never changed what Islam is.

Clicky

Of particular note are the following comments.

Last year, during the search for the 21 July bombers, BBC Newsnight sent a team to Birmingham, where they interviewed several men from the recently arrived Somalian Muslim population. It turned out that they had come via Denmark, where they had sought and been granted asylum. They stated that they had left Denmark, because in that country they were required to be Danish. Clearly they were under the impression they could live in Birmingham without the handicap of becoming either English or British.

Ministers appear whimsically to be shifting from the multi-cultural society towards an integrated one. They are whistling in the dark if they think that will play well with the followers of Islam in our midst. Muslims are rooted in their faith and it governs the way they live. It is the only faith on Earth that persuades its followers to seek political power and impose a law — sharia — which shapes everyone's style of life.

And, this comment from a Muslim...

What an idiotic and ignorant piece of trash. I am a Muslim and have been saying that there is nothing called a Muslim community. Islam is a religion just like Christianity and others. There are Buddists in Japan, Sri Lanka and Thailand. Do they live the same lifestyle? The problem with Britain is that the vast majority of Muslims are of Pakistani origin and it's their culture that you see in Britain. Not Muslim. Muslims are of all colours and ethnicity and have different backgrounds and lifestyle. Not all Muslims come from Arabia or Pakistan. What is this western culture people talk about? There are non Muslims who don't drink and some don't even eat any meat. They dress modestly. Do you mean to say that to assimilate one has to be a drunk and live an immoral life?

Seems like a harmless enough defence. But then he reveals his true feelings. In the West, we are all alcoholics who live immoral lives. If that's what he thinks, he can **** off as far as I am concerned.

 

[bliink]

Isn't this topic meant to be about protest protocols?

 

[15357]

Thats what I said a few pages ago.

 

[jverne]

A liberal in power in the Middle East? That wouldn't happen.



I'm not really sure what your point is. The US does bad stuff, but it has never changed what Islam is.

Clicky

Of particular note are the following comments.





And, this comment from a Muslim...



Seems like a harmless enough defence. But then he reveals his true feelings. In the West, we are all alcoholics who live immoral lives. If that's what he thinks, he can **** off as far as I am concerned.

well if the US doesn't help to assassinate or overthrow "liberal" reformists then we'll never see some change.



it's hard for anyone to assimilate in a new culture. it's even harder if you were brainwashed beforehand with such false beliefs. they were living their whole lives under totalitarian law what do you expect?

to solve this problem i believe it has to be dealt with it at the roots. like i said, overthrow totalitarian regimes and consequently educate them. but realistically speaking i don't know a good and fast way.

what exactly is you solution? exterminate every muslim?

 

[repiV]

well if the US doesn't help to assassinate or overthrow "liberal" reformists then we'll never see some change.

Aye, this is also true. The US has an abominable record of foreign intrusions. The trap many fall into however is to lay the blame solely at the feet of the US, as if the Middle East would be a shining light unto the world if it weren't for them.

it's hard for anyone to assimilate in a new culture. it's even harder if you were brainwashed beforehand with such false beliefs. they were living their whole lives under totalitarian law what do you expect?

Of course it's hard. But life is hard. That something is difficult is not an excuse.
Immigrants from the Middle East to the West are given the chance of a lifetime. A chance to make something of themselves, to be free, to fulfill their dreams. Why should they be able to have that privilege and yet pay nothing for it?

Btw, if the job I'm currently going for falls through, I'm strongly considering going to live in China for a while after I've paid off my debts. If and when that happens, I'll let you know how it goes.

to solve this problem i believe it has to be dealt with it at the roots. like i said, overthrow totalitarian regimes and consequently educate them. but realistically speaking i don't know a good and fast way.

what exactly is you solution? exterminate every muslim?

Isolationism. The Middle East can fester in its abominable state for eternity for all I care, so long as it doesn't affect the rest of civilisation. Immigration from Middle Eastern countries with the exception, perhaps, of more tolerant countries like Bahrain, almost entirely restricted.
Of course while we still require oil total isolationism is not an option.

 

[Solaris]

Y ego live in china

 

[repiV]

Y ego live in china

Say something useful or don't say anything at all.

 

[Solaris]

Say something useful or don't say anything at all.

Useful? Wear you watch inside out, its less likely to break.

 

[repiV]

Useful? Wear you watch inside out, its less likely to break.

That ship has sailed.
You're pissed, aren't you?

 

[jverne]

Aye, this is also true. The US has an abominable record of foreign intrusions. The trap many fall into however is to lay the blame solely at the feet of the US, as if the Middle East would be a shining light unto the world if it weren't for them.



Of course it's hard. But life is hard. That something is difficult is not an excuse.
Immigrants from the Middle East to the West are given the chance of a lifetime. A chance to make something of themselves, to be free, to fulfill their dreams. Why should they be able to have that privilege and yet pay nothing for it?

Btw, if the job I'm currently going for falls through, I'm strongly considering going to live in China for a while after I've paid off my debts. If and when that happens, I'll let you know how it goes.



Isolationism. The Middle East can fester in its abominable state for eternity for all I care, so long as it doesn't affect the rest of civilisation. Immigration from Middle Eastern countries with the exception, perhaps, of more tolerant countries like Bahrain, almost entirely restricted.
Of course while we still require oil total isolationism is not an option.

yes of course US is not the sole perpetrator, but its bad actions united all of islam in hating the west.

i to believe that if you go somewhere you have to adapt to their culture. on this i'm strongly on your side. but you can't just change someone overnight, special socialization facilities should be used to gradually convert the more stubborn immigrants.

i remember once reading a story of an African immigrant who immigrated to sicily. he said that they were treated like dog shit there. that's where the hate comes from.

i wish you luck if you ever move to china. i'm definitely interested in first hand experience of their culture.



hmm...i don't know how isolationism would work nowadays in the information age. i believe that education is the only really effective way to solve this problem.

 

[15357]

Of course it's hard. But life is hard. That something is difficult is not an excuse.
Immigrants from the Middle East to the West are given the chance of a lifetime. A chance to make something of themselves, to be free, to fulfill their dreams. Why should they be able to have that privilege and yet pay nothing for it?

Equal exchange!

Btw, if the job I'm currently going for falls through, I'm strongly considering going to live in China for a while after I've paid off my debts. If and when that happens, I'll let you know how it goes.

Don't drink the water there, seriously. Beer is much cheaper than water in Beijing, and probably less deleterious.

 

[repiV]

yes of course US is not the sole perpetrator, but its bad actions united all of islam in hating the west.

Perhaps, perhaps not.
Western culture is an affront to Islam anyway, so American influence or no, true and devoted Muslims would never be too fond of us.

i to believe that if you go somewhere you have to adapt to their culture. on this i'm strongly on your side. but you can't just change someone overnight, special socialization facilities should be used to gradually convert the more stubborn immigrants.

Or...we don't let those stubborn immigrants immigrate in the first place.
You couldn't even guarantee success with that method. They could just go through the motions. If someone doesn't actually want to integrate, they're not likely to do so.
I've never come across a high-earning Muslim in the corporate world - in fact I'm not sure I've come across one at all. There aren't any Muslims that are revolutionising our commerce and industry. Why do we need them? What do they do for us? It causes nothing but trouble.

i remember once reading a story of an African immigrant who immigrated to sicily. he said that they were treated like dog shit there. that's where the hate comes from.

But we treat immigrants like kings here. That's what's causing this problem in the first place. We "live and let live", and Muslims take advantage of this.

i wish you luck if you ever move to china. i'm definitely interested in first hand experience of their culture.

Thanks.
Yeah, it's a fascinating place. I'm sure it's just amazing watching it develop at such a rapid pace from year to year. Thinking of either Shanghai or Shenzhen. Shenzhen has the advantage of being close to Hong Kong...

hmm...i don't know how isolationism would work nowadays in the information age. i believe that education is the only really effective way to solve this problem.

I don't think you can really educate one culture into becoming another. I'm sure they would find the very notion of educating them to be less faithful Muslims highly insulting and some probably believe it deserves a jihad.
Simple...we allow trade, we allow tourism, but we don't allow people from that region of the world to settle here with a very few exceptions.
Anyone from the Middle East that is granted the right to live here for whatever reason should have to go through a vetting process similar to MI5s (it takes six-nine months).

 

[repiV]

Equal exchange!


Don't drink the water there, seriously. Beer is much cheaper than water in Beijing, and probably less deleterious.

Yeah, I heard it's bad stuff. I hope their coke isn't like French coke - tasteless.

 

[jverne]

Perhaps, perhaps not.
Western culture is an affront to Islam anyway, so American influence or no, true and devoted Muslims would never be too fond of us.



Or...we don't let those stubborn immigrants immigrate in the first place.
You couldn't even guarantee success with that method. They could just go through the motions. If someone doesn't actually want to integrate, they're not likely to do so.
I've never come across a high-earning Muslim in the corporate world - in fact I'm not sure I've come across one at all. There aren't any Muslims that are revolutionising our commerce and industry. Why do we need them? What do they do for us? It causes nothing but trouble.



But we treat immigrants like kings here. That's what's causing this problem in the first place. We "live and let live", and Muslims take advantage of this.



Thanks.
Yeah, it's a fascinating place. I'm sure it's just amazing watching it develop at such a rapid pace from year to year. Thinking of either Shanghai or Shenzhen. Shenzhen has the advantage of being close to Hong Kong...



I don't think you can really educate one culture into becoming another. I'm sure they would find the very notion of educating them to be less faithful Muslims highly insulting and some probably believe it deserves a jihad.
Simple...we allow trade, we allow tourism, but we don't allow people from that region of the world to settle here with a very few exceptions.
Anyone from the Middle East that is granted the right to live here for whatever reason should have to go through a vetting process similar to MI5s (it takes six-nine months).

well yes, muslims don't like our way of life not just because of the US. they see us as immoral like you showed some examples. that's why i support education, because it will sooner or later lead to eradication of religion and all the stupid moralism.they'll know our culture better an thus fear us less. i'm certain that most schools there are in mosques or something.

but to do that you need an outrageous amount of effort.



if we must compromise, do it like in Switzerland. they only pick the best of the immigrants. those who have education, wealth,...



the only thing would bother me in china are the internet restriction imposed by the government. i'd probably never get used to that.




i didn't mean to convert them to our culture. i only wanted to eradicate religion trough scientific knowledge.
back in the middle ages where Christianity expanded, there irish monks used a subtle way to infiltrate christianity in peoples everyday life. that is why is so deeply rooted in those regions. the other way was force which of course was not so effective in the long term.
the same should be done with science.

but i'm being such a idealist right now.

maybe the west culture is so moral thats why we take all the immigrants.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Yeah, and they explicitly said that it did not include Muslim women wearing the veil.

yet again, double standards for foreigners. Can everyone else go around wearing balaclavas?

of course not.


back on topic, nobody should be allowed to burn this.
http://www.piggotts.co.uk/images/ez/union-jack.jpg

and i dont want people like THIS http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8809/loljl6.jpg
in my country!
Rule, Brittania!

 

[repiV]

well yes, muslims don't like our way of life not just because of the US. they see us as immoral like you showed some examples. that's why i support education, because it will sooner or later lead to eradication of religion and all the stupid moralism.they'll know our culture better an thus fear us less. i'm certain that most schools there are in mosques or something.

I don't think you will ever eradicate religion through education. Even the educated turn to religion when life goes wrong.
Through scientific advances, perhaps. I believe that one day we will be able to answer the question "why?".
One of the problems particular to this country as I see it is that there is a spiritual and religious void due to the fact that our state religion now wields about as much power and influence as a five year old screaming "I don't wanna eat my peas!!"
Yet nothing has stepped up to replace that religion. Where once it was the centre of existence, the pillar of communities, the uniter of people, we have little sense of community anymore and many of us little sense of direction or purpose. We have only consumerism and greed.
Of course, this is ultimate freedom. The freedom to choose your destiny. Unfortunately I don't think we are as well equipped to deal with that immense responsibility as we would like to be. You can see how happiness in the West has declined steadily over the decades.
This leaves Islam with an unprecedented opportunity to convert and prosletyse and turn our own people against us - possibly good people, but weak people. People who stand for nothing so fall for anything, or people who need the comfort of religion.
Islam has a power that Christianity in the UK no longer does. Anyone with a little foresight should be concerned about this.

if we must compromise, do it like in Switzerland. they only pick the best of the immigrants. those who have education, wealth,...

Exactly.

the only thing would bother me in china are the internet restriction imposed by the government. i'd probably never get used to that.

They're easy enough to circumvent. The authorities also tend to leave Western expats alone - I would assume because foreign investment is driving the economic growth, and if foreigners had to be subject to the same authoritarianism as the locals, they wouldn't really want to hang around.
In time, foreign influence will be the death of the CCP, I have no doubt.

i didn't mean to convert them to our culture. i only wanted to eradicate religion trough scientific knowledge.

Their religion is their culture. Furthermore, secularism is a very European thing. By secularising them, are you not in effect converting them to our culture?

back in the middle ages where Christianity expanded, there irish monks used a subtle way to infiltrate christianity in peoples everyday life. that is why is so deeply rooted in those regions. the other way was force which of course was not so effective in the long term.
the same should be done with science.

but i'm being such a idealist right now.

Interesting.

maybe the west culture is so moral thats why we take all the immigrants.

It's moral...but ultimately fairly empty, I think. Or maybe that's just city life.

 

[repiV]

back on topic, nobody should be allowed to burn this.
http://www.piggotts.co.uk/images/ez/union-jack.jpg

Why not?

 

[NeptuneUK]

Why not?

it's naughty

 

[repiV]

it's naughty

Even Solaris gives much better reasons for his misguided convictions than that.
Try harder.

 

[NeptuneUK]

it really is though. it's naughty.
it promotes hostility towards the respective country and its inhabitants.

 

[repiV]

it really is though. it's naughty.
it promotes hostility towards the respective country and its inhabitants.

Now that depends entirely on whether the flag that is being burned represents the people or the government.

You do realise it's not just Muslims that burn flags, don't you?

 

[NeptuneUK]

i never said anything to contradict that, its disrespectful, you 'oribble flag burner. go aways

 

[repiV]

Where did I say or imply I was a flag burner?

Burning the flag is both abhorrent and immature. The difference between you and I is that I don't think everything I disapprove of should be illegal.

 

[kirovman]

They're easy enough to circumvent. The authorities also tend to leave Western expats alone - I would assume because foreign investment is driving the economic growth, and if foreigners had to be subject to the same authoritarianism as the locals, they wouldn't really want to hang around.
In time, foreign influence will be the death of the CCP, I have no doubt.

Not that easy to circumvent... they actively block proxies too.

The only way I could access the BBC website in China was while working in an American company, which had their own datalink to the US. Of course, the company has to respect Chinese laws too, so I was warned not to go looking on pro-democracy pages, pro-Taiwan/Tibet independence pages etc, as the government had full authority to close the link down.

Also if you goto 5 star hotels, you can watch BBC world, but they pull the plug on the signal if anything remotely anti-China comes on.
I was watching once, and the Tiananmen Tank man footage came on the TV, then the screen went blank for about 10 minutes.

So their laws still apply to foreigners, you won't be able to open a Dalai Lama T-Shirt stall in Beijing or anything.

The Chinese people will be the fall of the CCP, but they'll have to have the will to stand up and say enough is enough.
Foreign influence in China at the minute consists of businesses who have white rice rine with communist party officials and "Arrogant foreign-devils who don't understand the greatness of having 5000 years of uninterupted history and culture!"

 

[repiV]

Not that easy to circumvent... they actively block proxies too.

The only way I could access the BBC website in China was while working in an American company, which had their own datalink to the US. Of course, the company has to respect Chinese laws too, so I was warned not to go looking on pro-democracy pages, pro-Taiwan/Tibet independence pages etc, as the government had full authority to close the link down.

Also if you goto 5 star hotels, you can watch BBC world, but they pull the plug on the signal if anything remotely anti-China comes on.
I was watching once, and the Tiananmen Tank man footage came on the TV, then the screen went blank for about 10 minutes.

So their laws still apply to foreigners, you won't be able to open a Dalai Lama T-Shirt stall in Beijing or anything.

I was led to believe otherwise by a number of expats.
Apparently a TOR tunnel is an untraceable way to circumvent the system, but I don't know what a TOR tunnel is.

The Chinese people will be the fall of the CCP, but they'll have to have the will to stand up and say enough is enough.
Foreign influence in China at the minute consists of businesses who have white rice rine with communist party officials and "Arrogant foreign-devils who don't understand the greatness of having 5000 years of uninterupted history and culture!"

I think you misunderstood what I meant. By opening the country up to foreigners who will inevitably spread their political ideas and allowing their citizens to travel overseas, they are relinquishing control of the citizenry's thought processes. By exposing them to this whole new world, they will eventually meet their inevitable downfall at the hands of the newly enlightened and empowered people.

 

[kirovman]

Yeah, that's true. Although there's a lot of them who defend the CCP whatever (well, by defend I mean be apologetic), despite the time they've spent overseas. A lot of the overseas students just associate exclusively with other Chinese students and prefer not to talk politics.

I've also met a few people who were in the Tiananmen Square protests. Some fled to foreign countries to study, some returned to China.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Where did I say or imply I was a flag burner?

Burning the flag is both abhorrent and immature. The difference between you and I is that I don't think everything I disapprove of should be illegal.

i never said anything to suggest that. which means you are:
a) Presumptious

b) A Prick

 

[repiV]

The full force of your arguments is destroying me!