One Thousand A Month Tortured To Death In Iraq

[Solaris]

You still support the palestinian terrorists who openly target civilians in their suicide bombings...
I smell hypocrisy.

Seriously man this is pissing me off.
Look back at one of my Palestinian posts, I have made it clear more times that should be nessacary that the killing of civillians is never acceptable. I have said it in big size 8 bold letters.

 

[Raziaar]

Seriously man this is pissing me off.
Look back at one of my Palestinian posts, I have made it clear more times that should be nessacary that the killing of civillians is never acceptable. I have said it in big size 8 bold letters.

But you said you STILL support them, like somehow their actions are excusable.

 

[Solaris]

But you said you STILL support them, like somehow their actions are excusable.

No I said I supported thoose who attacked troops.

 

[Raziaar]

No I said I supported thoose who attacked troops.

NEWSFLASH!

The people who attack troops also kill civilians, or are in cohoots with those who do.

 

[Solaris]

NEWSFLASH!

The people who attack troops also kill civilians, or are in cohoots with those who do.

Wrong. Some do some don't. It is justified for a Palestinian to shoot at some Isreali soldiers.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Interesting point Raziaar,..
Solaris i can vagely remember immense debates in which you defended palestinian Hamas and its attacks on Israeli civilians claiming Israel was "brutal" and "shooting up civies"... Even with some colorfull stories on how kids were shot etc. So maybe not "accepting" perhaps, but claiming they were justified as Israel was so "brutal" to them.
Im to tired now, but ill go digging into topics tomorrow..

If you disagree with attacking civilians, and only agree with attacking soldiers, then you should also disagree and oppose the palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians...

 

[Raziaar]

Wrong. Some do some don't. It is justified for a Palestinian to shoot at some Isreali soldiers.

No... NOT wrong. What, do you think all those suicide bombers that blow up busses with children on them, restraunts, or whatever that kill civilians... do you think they're all independent people who just happen to have a mutual hate of the Israeli occupation? *WRONG*. They get their technology and their knowledge of where to attack from the same terrorist groups.

They are connected and associated with each other. All of them.

 

[Solaris]

No... NOT wrong. What, do you think all those suicide bombers that blow up busses with children on them, restraunts, or whatever that kill civilians... do you think they're all independent people who just happen to have a mutual hate of the Israeli occupation? *WRONG*. They get their technology and their knowledge of where to attack from the same terrorist groups.

They are connected and associated with each other. All of them.

Oh so by supporting the troops in the USA, your also supporting the killing of civillians in cold blood, and the torture in Guantamano after all they're all connected. So by supporting the troops your supporting torture? No.

Just as by supporting people who shoot at Israeli soldiers, I am not supporting someone who has nothing to do with these other people who blows up school buses.

The insurgency in Iraq, or in Palestine, isn't some neatly connected series of groups, all with shared goals and beliefs. Its just people with guns, shooting at someone, sometimes each other. So by saying I support them all becuase I support one of them is wrong, they are not connected at all, just as by supporting the young men and women in Iraq, doesn't mean you support the people who torture prisoners and shoot civillians in cold blood.

 

[Raziaar]

Oh so by supporting the troops in the USA, your also supporting the killing of civillians in cold blood, and the torture in Guantamano after all they're all connected. So by supporting the troops your supporting torture? No.

Just as by supporting people who shoot at Israeli soldiers, I am not supporting someone who has nothing to do with these other people who blows up school buses.

The insurgency in Iraq, or in Palestine, isn't some neatly connected series of groups, all with shared goals and beliefs. Its just people with guns, shooting at someone, sometimes each other. So by saying I support them all becuase I support one of them is wrong, they are not connected at all, just as by supporting the young men and women in Iraq, doesn't mean you support the people who torture prisoners and shoot civillians in cold blood.

The American Army and terrorist organizations are in completely different leagues, my friend. Civilians become casualties by accident by the American forces. Its sad, its enfuriating, but its by accident. These terrorists. They PURPOSEFULLY target civilians. They think to themselves, "How many civvies can I kill today to try to get my point across?" Then they go blow themselves up and as many people around them as they can.

You see... all i'm asking of you, is why you support these groups. Which we had a big argument about in the other thread. These people who target innocent civilians. They do this, you speak against it, yet you still support them and their fight against the Israeli military forces. Why not denounce them completely, and support a peaceful group, or at least a group that only SOLELY targets military units with as much discretion as possible.

The Palestinian terrorist groups are 'far' more connected to each other than the insurgency in Iraq. How could you believe otherwise? You have the same people, time and time again, admitting they were the masterminds behind the brutal attacks.

 

[Solaris]

The American Army and terrorist organizations are in completely different leagues, my friend. Civilians become casualties by accident by the American forces. Its sad, its enfuriating, but its by accident. These terrorists. They PURPOSEFULLY target civilians. They think to themselves, "How many civvies can I kill today to try to get my point across?" Then they go blow themselves up and as many people around them as they can.

Its not an accident. In falujah where they were told to shoot anyone, and 800 civillians were killed. That is not an accident, thats just shooting everyone in the hope you'll kill someone worth killing.

Some terrorists do target civillians, I have no support for them.

You see... all i'm asking of you, is why you support these groups. Which we had a big argument about in the other thread. These people who target innocent civilians. They do this, you speak against it, yet you still support them and their fight against the Israeli military forces. Why not denounce them completely, and support a peaceful group, or at least a group that only SOLELY targets military units with as much discretion as possible.

Becuase there are no overt groups. There is just a resistance, a resistance by people with no connection to each other who use different tactics, but do no more harm than Isreal/The USA. Isreal creates suicide bombers, The coallition creates insurgents. The insurgency isn't a group, its just a term applied to people with guns in Iraq who don't have a flag on their arm.

The Palestinian terrorist groups are 'far' more connected to each other than the insurgency in Iraq. How could you believe otherwise? You have the same people, time and time again, admitting they were the masterminds behind the brutal attacks.

Show me that the palestinian reistance is masterminded by a group of fanatics who want to kill civillians at the top, and that most Palestinian resistance fighters aim to kill Isreali civillians.

 

[Raziaar]

Are you KIDDING me? Hamas is a ****ing mastermind that coordinates attacks and bombings against civilians! Do I have to 'prove' this to you with ****ing internet links? Look at the god damn news for a change! They're accepting responsibility for attacks, including past and present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre

This is one of many attacks purposefully designed to target civilians. Jesus ****ing christ man, you're ignorant.

 

[Solaris]

Are you KIDDING me? Hamas is a ****ing mastermind that coordinates attacks and bombings against civilians! Do I have to 'prove' this to you with ****ing internet links? Look at the god damn news for a change! They're accepting responsibility for attacks, including past and present.

Hamas? Hamas isn't the resistance, it's a small part of it.

 

[Raziaar]

Hamas? Hamas isn't the resistance, it's a small part of it.

Hamas's military wing conducts attacks against civilian and military targets alike, and coordinates much of the violence in the israel/palestinian conflict.

But anyways, this is unrelated to the topic. I appologize for derailing the thread this far.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Hamas? Hamas isn't the resistance, it's a small part of it.

Hamas is the most proficient in carrying out bombings, funding, etc etc. It's the main organization. Other groups tied to Fatah such as the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade are known more for attacks via gunmen or rockets.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Weren't Hamas the ones who bombed Madrid?

I suppose, Solaris, that the train was a military target, and all of the people who died were justified deaths?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Razor]

Weren't Hamas the ones who bombed Madrid?

I suppose, Solaris, that the train was a military target, and all of the people who died were justified deaths?

-Angry Lawyer

No, it was an Al Qaeda cell from Morocco.

 

[baxter]

Hamas? Hamas isn't the resistance, it's a small part of it.

Among the more infamous Hamas suicide bombings and terrorist attacks were (the following is a representative, not exhaustive, list):


The 1 June 2001 suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;
The 9 August 2001 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;
The 1 December 2001 double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;
The 2 December 2001 suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;
The 9 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;
The 27 March 2002 suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;
The 18 June 2002 suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;
The 4 August 2002 suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 21 November 2002 suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
The 5 March 2003 suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;
The 17 May 2003 suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;
The 18 May 2003 suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;
The 11 June 2003 suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;
The 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at Tzrifin, in which nine soldiers were murdered and 10 were wounded;
The 9 September 2003 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which seven people were murdered and 70 were wounded;
The 29 January 2004 suicide bombing of a #19 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 44 were wounded;
The 14 March 2004 double suicide bombing at Ashdod port, in which 10 people were murdered and 16 were wounded.
On Aug 31, 2004 16 people were killed and 100 wounded in two suicide bombings within minutes of each other on two Beersheba city buses, on route nos. 6 and 12.

source

Please tell me you don't sympathies with or support this......or this

 

[Raziaar]

Wait wait... He gave me an exact answer on this before.

Originally Posted by Raziaar
You view Hamas as justified resistance/freedom fighters?

Originally Posted by Solaris
I do, there fighting to free there people. Their tactics can be disgraceful, I cannot condone the killing of civillians by anyone. Isreali troops however are legitimate targets and I support palestinian resistance fighters who target them.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1772122&postcount=24


Funny though, those attacks you listed. How many of them sound like they were directed at military targets?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

No, it was an Al Qaeda cell from Morocco.

Lies, it was Solaris.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Ome_Vince]

Hamas? Hamas isn't the resistance, it's a small part of it.

Hamas a small part???? Hamas a small part of the "palestinian resistance"??
Hamas are in control now!!! over the entire state!! Thats like saying the SS was a small part of the Nazi's... (note there's a difference between a WW2 german and a WW2 Nazi.. )

Even without the Hamas, Palestinians are indoctrinated with pure hatred (kind of like the Germans were during the Nazi regime), with pure death and destruction dreams for Israel, kids being indoctrinated in schools and on TV to be a martyr and blow jews up..
Then they join hamas or some other radical organisation and turn into action.

They are taught dying for allah, fighting jews is good. I always wondered which parent would send his/her kid on the street to throw rocks at soldiers, or send his/her kid to blow itself up ->now i understand->indoctrination is the key.

If the Palestinians even had a case, by going the barbaric way they blew it imo..

As for the torturing in Iraq, its barbaric and the ones involved should be punished. But so do the insurgents who are responsible for a shitload of military-civilian confrontations..

 

[Solaris]

Oh I do sympathise with Hamas, but I don't support the killing of civillians, but I can see why they do it. But people don't blow themselves up becuase of some crazy ideology, thats what they want you to think. In reality they do it out of dispair and sadness and there sadnesss turns to anger which is directed by such groups as Hamas.

 

[Ome_Vince]

ROFL!!! are you serious???

I wish to avoid the Israel's right to exist discussion, but want to point out HAMAS fights a Jihad against Jews and wants to exterminate Israel and replace it with palestina....
They dont do it "out of dispair" or "their sadness" they do it out of islamic fundementalism:

Hamas ideology states that the Palestinian problem is religious and therefore can never be solved by political compromise, and that the land of Palestine, “from the river to the sea,” is consecrated to Islam ( wakf ). It cannot be given up, not even a part of it, especially not Jerusalem .

 

[Solaris]

Yes, but the people on the front line suicide bombing, are driven to it by grief.

 

[baxter]

Oh I do sympathise with Hamas, but I don't support the killing of civillians, but I can see why they do it. But people don't blow themselves up becuase of some crazy ideology, thats what they want you to think. In reality they do it out of dispair and sadness and there sadnesss turns to anger which is directed by such groups as Hamas.

Murder is Murder, terrorism is terrorism, genocide is genocide and the death of innocent people is reprehensible which ever way you care to dress it up or sugar coat it.
You cannot condemn the actions of one group for committing such acts and commend another group for doing exactly the same. You either support them all or condemn them all.
Labels such as freedom fighter and legitimate targets glorify murder and as such is as laughable as the ideology that supports it.
Equally laughable is the lame excuse that they were sad and desperate; there is no excuse whatsoever to indiscriminately harm, maim or kill innocent people.

 

[Solaris]

Murder is Murder, terrorism is terrorism, genocide is genocide and the death of innocent people is reprehensible which ever way you care to dress it up or sugar coat it.
You cannot condemn the actions of one group for committing such acts and commend another group for doing exactly the same. You either support them all or condemn them all.
Labels such as freedom fighter and legitimate targets glorify murder and as such is as laughable as the ideology that supports it.
Equally laughable is the lame excuse that they were sad and desperate; there is no excuse whatsoever to indiscriminately harm, maim or kill innocent people.

Fine, lets just accept that these people are evil. They are all evil and want to destroy everything we hold dear, they hate freedom and babies, and especially hate the internet. There is nothing we can do to stop these people, who want to kill us all.

Or we could look into it and think, "Hmm, what would drive a young man to kill himself with a suicide bomb at an Isreali Checkpoint?" Then maybe we would find that his familly had just been bombed or shot or something and he wanted vengance, and hamas gave him a bomb.

 

[Ome_Vince]

hehe, you believe that?
Its more like:

"Hmm, what would drive a young man to kill himself with a suicide bomb at an Isreali Checkpoint?"

Well, years of Palestinian indoctrination combined with propaganda fueled by incidents of shot civilians.

Doesnt meen Israel is innocent, but what drives ppl to blow themselves up is hardly the morale story you just put here.

 

[CptStern]

hehe, you believe that?
Its more like:

Well, years of Palestinian indoctrination combined with propaganda fueled by incidents of shot civilians.

Doesnt meen Israel is innocent, but what drives ppl to blow themselves up is hardly the morale story you just put here.

if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?

were I an iraqi who lost his child to coalition bombing the very first thing I'd do is strap myself full of explosives and bear hug the first coalition soldier I saw ...grief does not allow room for rational thinking

the broken and the grief stricken are the best candiadates for suicide missions ..they often welcome death as a release from misery ..the Iraq war has created thousands if not hundreds of thousands of potential suicide bombers

 

[Eg.]

Do what the russians did. After you blow said family to chunks, take new orphans, and indoctrinate them through brainwashing, and turn them into soliders. The islamic caliphates have been diong it for centuries with mamalukes, so why not give it a new, western spin

 

[CptStern]

because no iraqi would ever accept american imperialism ...especially when they've witnessed US "benevolence" for 15 years

 

[VictimOfScience]

if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?

Revenge? Yes. Suicide bombing? No way. That's not what my children would want. Besides, in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." <--Though admittedly, that is hard when you keep getting f*cked over.

were I an iraqi who lost his child to coalition bombing the very first thing I'd do is strap myself full of explosives and bear hug the first coalition soldier I saw ...grief does not allow room for rational thinking

It does if you have a brain. Haven't you ever heard of a five-year plan? In the case of Oh-Daesu in Oldboy, it was like a 15 year plan! Cold and calculating--that's how its done. Watch troop movements, see where they go and who they're with, find your opportunity and take it and don't get caught. Most of all, don't blow yourself up! Duh!

the broken and the grief stricken are the best candiadates for suicide missions ..they often welcome death as a release from misery ..the Iraq war has created thousands if not hundreds of thousands of potential suicide bombers

Um, hundreds of thousands? The fear-mongering here is worse than in a Rumsfield speech!

 

[baxter]

Fine, lets just accept that these people are evil. They are all evil and want to destroy everything we hold dear, they hate freedom and babies, and especially hate the internet. There is nothing we can do to stop these people, who want to kill us all.

Or we could look into it and think, "Hmm, what would drive a young man to kill himself with a suicide bomb at an Isreali Checkpoint?" Then maybe we would find that his familly had just been bombed or shot or something and he wanted vengance, and hamas gave him a bomb.

Do you purposefully try to miss the point of everything that is put to you or are you simply trying to wind people up?

Let me try to clarify.

I condemn terrorism, whether it is in the form of insurgents inside Iraq, Hamas ,Al Qaeda, why? because they kill people.
I condemn The Iraq war, why? Because people die.
I condemn the perpetrators of 9/11. Why? Because people died
I condemn homicidal tyrants, why? because they kill people
I condemn the genocides inside Africa why……

Well I guess you can get the picture. I do not object to these because it is cool or because I have some masterful ideological political strategy. I object on the grounds of morality. It’s as simple as that.

I genuinely believe that all peoples are born equal and have the right to live without fear or oppression and that to kill a human being based on nothing other than your own political agenda, your religious beliefs or cultural differences is barbaric.

Of course my views are simplistic and based on emotions rather than facts and statistics; call it humanity if you wish.

 

[Solaris]

Kill or be Killed.

 

[CptStern]

Revenge? Yes. Suicide bombing? No way. That's not what my children would want. Besides, in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

believe it or not 3 years ago I would have agreed with you ..however now that I am a father I have no doubt I'd do it. It's not the fact that they died but rather that they didnt have to die

It does if you have a brain. Haven't you ever heard of a five-year plan? In the case of Oh-Daesu in Oldboy, it was like a 15 year plan! Cold and calculating--that's how its done. Watch troop movements, see where they go and who they're with, find your opportunity and take it and don't get caught. Most of all, don't blow yourself up! Duh!

it's nice to speculate on all this from the comfort of our homes but the reality is that revenge is sweetest when the fire is still hot. Wanting the finality of a suicide bombing is mostly for revenge but there's also the release from grief that death brings ...losing a child is unlike any other loss

Um, hundreds of thousands? The fear-mongering here is worse than in a Rumsfield speech!

if the supposed bombing of al qaeda training camps which killed women and children led to 9/11 what do you think 3 years and over 100,000 dead civilans will bring?

 

[VictimOfScience]

believe it or not 3 years ago I would have agreed with you ..however now that I am a father I have no doubt I'd do it. It's not the fact that they died but rather that they didnt have to die

I hear you. I am sure many things will change when I have children. I hope you are enjoying fatherhood! :thumbs:

it's nice to speculate on all this from the comfort of our homes but the reality is that revenge is sweetest when the fire is still hot. Wanting the finality of a suicide bombing is mostly for revenge but there's also the release from grief that death brings ...losing a child is unlike any other loss

Come on--everybody knows revenge is a dish best served-up cold. If you let your animal passion overtake your reason, then you have become an animal yourself. And suicide has always been IMHO the coward's way out, the selfish way out.

if the supposed bombing of al qaeda training camps which killed women and children led to 9/11 what do you think 3 years and over 100,000 dead civilans will bring?

9/11 was not brought about by bombing of training camps. 9/11 was a masterful attempt at trying to get the Islamic world united in a war against the Western world to re-establish the long-lost caliphate thanks to what was sure to be a hot-headed and overly-aggressive response from the US administration. The results were less than what al Queda was hoping if you haven't guessed already. The radical Muslim leaders seem to be using the flames fanned by the cartoons to greater effect in the Muslim world, or so the world media would have us believe. There's a gigantic difference between a demonstrator and a suicide bomber. People have to stop listening to their TVs and radios--you are more likely to encounter a doughnut than a terrorist in your lifetime (thanks to whomever had that in their sig ages ago). Fear is what's controlling the world right now and no matter how much damage they caused on 9/11, the threat of al Queda has been played up like crazy in order to further the goals of the US administration and others like it around the world.

 

[Ome_Vince]

if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?

were I an iraqi who lost his child to coalition bombing the very first thing I'd do is strap myself full of explosives and bear hug the first coalition soldier I saw ...grief does not allow room for rational thinking

the broken and the grief stricken are the best candiadates for suicide missions ..they often welcome death as a release from misery ..the Iraq war has created thousands if not hundreds of thousands of potential suicide bombers

Hence i agree on the Iraq part, i was always against the Iraqi war. However i do see insurgency atm as pointless when power has been given to Iraq and the coalition is on its way out...

And the post you quoted was not about the Iraq war, it was about the Israel-palestina case.
I see those 2 cases as seperate...

 

[CptStern]

I hear you. I am sure many things will change when I have children. I hope you are enjoying fatherhood! :thumbs:

I am, and will soon again

Come on--everybody knows revenge is a dish best served-up cold. If you let your animal passion overtake your reason, then you have become an animal yourself. And suicide has always been IMHO the coward's way out, the selfish way out.

yes but that's better suited for when someone has done you wrong...it's completely different when someone has killed your family

9/11 was not brought about by bombing of training camps. 9/11 was a masterful attempt at trying to get the Islamic world united in a war against the Western world to re-establish the long-lost caliphate thanks to what was sure to be a hot-headed and overly-aggressive response from the US administration. The results were less than what al Queda was hoping if you haven't guessed already. The radical Muslim leaders seem to be using the flames fanned by the cartoons to greater effect in the Muslim world, or so the world media would have us believe. There's a gigantic difference between a demonstrator and a suicide bomber. People have to stop listening to their TVs and radios--you are more likely to encounter a doughnut than a terrorist in your lifetime (thanks to whomever had that in their sig ages ago). Fear is what's controlling the world right now and no matter how much damage they caused on 9/11, the threat of al Queda has been played up like crazy in order to further the goals of the US administration and others like it around the world.

9/11 was indeed payback (in part) for the afghani bombings ..osama said as much in the first video aired after 9/11 ..al qaeda is an american invention because they needed some way of prosecuting these militant groups who attacked US targets/interests ..but the only legal justification would be if it was an organised group ..but for all intents and purposes the idea of al qaeda as a worldwide organization run by osama bin laden has about basis in reality as the tooth fairy ...this is all covered in part 3 of the Power of Nightmares btw

 

[Solaris]

Oh ye, thats an excellant documentary, I think its uploaded onto Prison Planet actually.

 

[CptStern]

ya, informationclearinghouse.com has it as well ..but smaller ..so less load times

 

[K e r b e r o s]

if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?

CptStern, talking about vengeance, a complete turn around for such a "peacefull" man.

Oh, its true the Palestinians indoctrinate their children, with or without attacks occuring. Watch all the videos at the following, its cut directly from PATV [Palestinian TV]:

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_tabisho.asx

On a children’s program discussing the importance of trees, "Tarabisho" - the Talking Chick -- was the center of the discussion. The child moderator asked the talking chick what he would do if someone, specifically a “little boy,” were to chop down his tree. In his squeaky little voice, Tarabisho answered: "I'll fight him and make a big riot, I'll call the whole world and make a riot. I'll bring AK-47s [assault rifles] and the whole world, I'll commit a massacre in front of the house". [PA TV: Oct. 22, 2004]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_AllahAkbar_7.asx

This MTV style music video from PA TV calls upon children to attack Israelis with stones: “You will not be saved, Oh Zionist, from the volcano of my county’s stones” and is sung to scenes of children throwing stones and participating in frenzied "war dances”. [PA TV Mar. 2002- June 2003, repeatedly]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Armedkids.asx

Child Soldiers of the PA
Mother: I would have preferred a different son had died, the son that did'nt kill a zion

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_noFear_7.asx

This PA TV music video instructs children to attack soldiers with stones and attempts to allay their fears. "Don"t be Afraid" the 10 year old sings to the 5 year old repeatedly. "The stone in their hand turns into a rifle..."
This was broadcast repeatedly 2000 - 2003.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_MotherNotHumiliate_7.asx

One of the most frequently broadcast PA music videos over 3 years teaches children that throwing stones at Israelis defends mother's honor. In one scene young boys throw stones at a glass window - smashing Jewish symbols and extinguishing the flames on a Menorah [Jewish Traditional Candelabra], teaching children that their stones are stronger than Judaism.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_toys_7.asx

Young Palestinian boys and girls taught to replace their trucks and dolls with rocks [PA TV May 2, 2001]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_girl_7.asx

A teenage girl calls for the killing of Jews: “We won't leave a single Jew here.” [PA TV Oct. 22, 2000]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_kidKalach_7.asx

In the very same week that the Palestinian Journalists Union “banned journalists from photographing Palestinian children carrying weapons ... [because] the pictures harm the Palestinian cause” [AP, Jerusalem Post Aug. 26, 2002] PA TV interviewed a child in his home - and for the purpose of the interview - he held a Kalatchnikov automatic rifle. The media regularly shows pictures of children with weapons.
[PA TV Aug. 23, 2002]

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

Now for some of those Hamas Apologists ...

Hamas Video:
We will drink the blood of the Jews
Half a month after its electoral victory, the Hamas website presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. One message was for Jews, whose blood Hamas promises to drink until Jews "leave the Muslim countries," and the second to a mother, as she helps dress her son for battle prior to his suicide terror mission.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/pmw_hamas_post_election.asx

Post-Election Video:
Gaza leads to Haifa
A video placed on the Hamas website after its victory in the January 25, 2006 Palestinian Authority parliamentary elections makes clear that Hamas still considers itself as a violent group aiming at nothing less than Israel's destruction.

The video promises that the "homeland is returning through blood" at the same time an image of the Israeli coastal city of Haifa is displayed.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Khaled_Mashal.asx

Hamas Head: Terrorism will continue
Just two days before its sweeping election victory of January 25, 2006, the Damascus-based leader of Hamas, Khaled Masha'al was interviewed by Al-Arabbiya TV. In the interview he said that Hamas will continue its terrorist campaign, that it will never recognize Israel and that it has a staged plan to destroy the Jewish state.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Qassam_history.asx

Pre-Election Video (in English)
In a video posted on the Hamas website just days before the January 25, 2006 Palestinian Authority Parliamentary elections, Hamas announced - in English - that it considers itself as being part of the effort to "liberate Palestine" from the "filth" of Israel. Important to note is that Hamas said that its efforts have been active since the British Mandate - thus making clear that it considers the destruction of Israel as its goal, as opposed to simply gaining the West Bank.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/um_nidal.asx

Hamas Lists Mother of Suicide Terrorists as Candidate
In the lead up to the Palestinian parliamentary elections in January 2006, terrorist group Hamas announced that one of its candidates would be Um Nidal, whose only claim to fame was that she proudly sent three of her sons to die for Allah in terrorist attacks against Israeli targets.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas.asx

Hamas Video:
More terror; Israel will be destroyed
In October 2005, Hamas placed on its website a half-hour video that can only be seen as part of its election campaign. The video reviews what its makers see as recent Hamas successes as well as its plans for the future. The video features military-style training for Hamas terrorists and explicit encouragement of suicide terrorists and their mothers. The well-publicized Hamas plan to destroy Israel is reiterated, as are Hamas plans to remain the "resistance" (the Palestinian euphemism for terror) group of choice for all Palestinian and jihad terrorists.

The video appeared on the Hamas site at almost the same time that the US State Department made clear that it would make no attempt to block Hamas from participating in the January 25, 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections. The EU and UN also agreed that Hamas, which appears on official EU and US lists of terrorist organizations, could participate in the elections.

Scenes of Hamas terrorists in military-style training
The opinion that including female suicide terrorists in Hamas ranks has led to Palestinian mothers being more willing to encourage their sons to become suicide terrorists
The promotion of Shahada (death for Allah) as better than life (a message parallel to that of the Palestinian Authority, as can be seen here
A refusal to disarm, despite running in parliamentary elections
The hope that Hamas will continue to be "a home for all Palestinian and jihad fighters"
The opinion (also parallel to that of the PA) that the recent voluntary Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is the first step in the destruction of Israel
Finally, the promise of more terrorism, as Hamas' military commander promises to Israelis, "we will make all of Palestine [i.e. Israel] a hell for you"

For some of you nutjobs who don't believe that the Palestinians religious indoctrinate their people with Genocide ...

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_MudyrisMay13.asx

In the May 13 sermon Ibrahim Mudayris reiterated many of the often-repeated PA justifications for the anticipated genocide, including the following hate messages:

1. The Jews have inherently evil character traits that Muhammad warned Muslims about in the Koran.
2. The Jews have been the source of conflict throughout all of history: “The Jews are a virus similar to AIDS, from which the entire world is suffering.”
3. The persecution of Jews throughout history is presented as natural responses of self-defense by numerous countries against the evil of the Jews. Britain, France, Portugal, Czarist Russia, Nazi Germany, all persecuted and/or expelled Jews – as acts of self-defense and revenge.
4. Zionism was created by Britain in order solve its Jewish problem by sending them to Israel.
5. God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews.
6. God has predetermined that the Christian -Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.
7. Israel has no right to exist and will be destroyed.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_stoneTree.asx

In the May 13 sermon Ibrahim Mudayris reiterated many of the often-repeated PA justifications for the anticipated genocide, including the following hate messages:

1. The Jews have inherently evil character traits that Muhammad warned Muslims about in the Koran.
2. The Jews have been the source of conflict throughout all of history: “The Jews are a virus similar to AIDS, from which the entire world is suffering.”
3. The persecution of Jews throughout history is presented as natural responses of self-defense by numerous countries against the evil of the Jews. Britain, France, Portugal, Czarist Russia, Nazi Germany, all persecuted and/or expelled Jews – as acts of self-defense and revenge.
4. Zionism was created by Britain in order solve its Jewish problem by sending them to Israel.
5. God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews.
6. God has predetermined that the Christian -Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.
7. Israel has no right to exist and will be destroyed.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Halabiya_kill.asx

Jews must be killed and butchered. Everywhere you meet Jews, kill them. It is forbidden to have mercy on a Jew. - All this and more expressed by a senior PA religious leader.
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Sharia (Islamic Law) Rulings Council, Rector of Advanced Studies, Islamic Univ.
[PA TV, Oct. 13, 2000].

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_graveyard.asx

Mohammed was at war with the Jews because of their evil and deceit, and he warned Muslims to beware of the Jews and know “how to deal with them” throughout history.
“Jews wait for your graveyard.”
PA religious teacher Dr. Mahmoud Mustafa Najem.
[PA TV, Feb. 8, 2002]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_wafa.asx

A Song in Concert Glorifying Wafa Idris A song in concert praising the first woman suicide terrorist who blew herself up in Jerusalem, was broadcast three times in one week on PA TV in May 2002. The song extols and praises both Idris and her act of suicide terrorism. It has since been broadcast many times. The concert glorifying Idris was held in Egypt. [PA TV May 12, 2002 through July 24, 2003]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_MadiConquer.asx

Palestinian Authority religious teacher, Dr. Ibraham Maadi, mandates suicide bombing as religious necessity so that the “Muslims will subjugate the Jews.” "Blow them up in Hadera, Tel Aviv and Netanya..." he demands on PA TV.
[PA TV Aug. 3, 2001]

Some more Palestinian propaganda and religious theocratic facism ...

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_MomGun.asx

Mom Sends her Sons off to Fight and Die:
Her son is killed attacking Israelis and his body is brought to her. After her traditional wail of joy she hands his rifle to the next in line. PA produced music video broadcast numerous times.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Nablus.asx

PA Advocates Killing Jews of Disputed Areas
Ignoring their pledge to resolve issues of the Disputed Territories peacefully, PA TV advocates murder of the area’s Jewish residents. This music video is one example of the PA endorsement of murder. [PA TV April 30, 2003]

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_knife.asx

Subliminal messages have been outlawed in the West for half a century. Yet the Palestinian Authority uses subliminal messages to teach hatred and promote murder of Jews. This dagger in the Star of David flashes on the screen for a 1/4 of a second in a PA music video that has been broadcast repeatedly from Dec. 2000 through 2002.
The images of the dagger was broadcast again on PA TV, May 2005.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Madi-dissapear_7.asx

As part of the hatred expressed towards Western countries, PA TV religious broadcasts have included prayers for Allah to fight, hurt or destroy the USA, Britain, and Israel.

Some more indoctrination of children -- Oh, and there's a heck of a lot more then this!

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_shahid_essay.asx

A fictional show on Palestinian Authority Television reinforced the message to children that violence is the best way to resolve conflict, and that Shahada [death for Allah] is a goal to be pursued.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Walla.asx

Two 11-year-old girls articulate their personal goal to become shahids [people who die for Allah], explaining that "all Palestinian children" see Shahada [death for Allah] - because of its promised grand Afterlife - as more worthwhile than living.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Firial.asx

In English, PA leaders have denied that they encourage their children to aspire to Shahada [death for Allah]. However in Arabic, the PA continues to express pride in educating children to aspire to Shahada, portraying it as a national achievement. The Director of the Palestinian Children's Aid Association candidly reiterated this PA educational policy, on PA TV.

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Arafat.asx

Yasser Arafat's Message to Children: "Be a Shahid"
Arafat explains that dead Palestinian children are "the greatest message to the world."

http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_KidNotAfraid.asx

Palestinian Journalist to 7-year-olds: "Don't be afraid to die"
A Palestinian journalist asked a second grade child if he feared death. When the child hesitated, the journalist shook her head to signal that the correct answer was "no," even for 7-year-olds.

Thats all for now ... I think I gave enough. So, to Herr Stern, I have a question to ask of you.

If someone killed your family with a bomb, would you think of ... Jihad?

For those of you nutjobs who happened to forget, Hamas doctrines state that children are meant to fighters and suicide bombers. Oh, and how they're indoctrinating.

As for this ...

 

[K e r b e r o s]

9/11 was indeed payback (in part) for the afghani bombings ..osama said as much in the first video aired after 9/11 ..al qaeda is an american invention because they needed some way of prosecuting these militant groups who attacked US targets/interests ..but the only legal justification would be if it was an organised group ..but for all intents and purposes the idea of al qaeda as a worldwide organization run by osama bin laden has about basis in reality as the tooth fairy ...this is all covered in part 3 of the Power of Nightmares btw

So, is payback justified? See, Bush finishing up his daddy's job. You are a man of vengeance, I did'nt see it then but I do now. You're coming out of the peace closet and are showing us your will to excuse violent attrocities against human life.

For your source, I have this to say ...

I think the word "Conspiracy" is bigger then us all. It gets lost in the mouths of the ignorant, and looses its sense of importance with the words constant playing in debates that labour for an escape of responsibility and fact.