One Thousand A Month Tortured To Death In Iraq

[CptStern]

So, is payback justified? See, Bush finishing up his daddy's job. You are a man of vengeance, I did'nt see it then but I do now. You're coming out of the peace closet and are showing us your will to excuse violent attrocities against human life.

his daddy's job? how old are you? you cant possibly believe that utter nonsense

where did I say it was justified? please quote where I said that

For your source, I have this to say ...

I think the word "Conspiracy" is bigger then us all. It gets lost in the mouths of the ignorant, and looses its sense of importance with the words constant playing in debates that labour for an escape of responsibility and fact.

:upstare: another excercise in lip service that doesnt actually say anything


but thanks for wasting my time yet again by commenting on something you havent even seen

"the ps3 is the crappiest console ever, despite the fact that I know nothing about it and have never played it ...but I know it's crap, because I have a gut instinct in these sort of things"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

his daddy's job? how old are you? you cant possibly believe that utter nonsense

Your right, the idea a country could go to war for Oil, or the thought Bush Junior going in there to finish up the first Gulf War were Bush senior left off, is utter nonsense and should'nt be believed. Pure folly, I agree.

where did I say it was justified?

You'd deny your own arguement?

9/11 was indeed payback (in part) for the afghani bombings ..osama said as much in the first video aired after 9/11 .

You and Solaris were practically sand bagging each other with PrisonPlanet. I agree with some of what they say [PrisonPlanet], but it was this "rhetoric" that caught my mind. In your own words, you state, "9/11 was indeed payback (in part for the afghani bombings".

Perhaps you were just posting an observation, but still, what with your previous clammouring statements of,

if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?

You've taken a complete change of tone. You gave the statement 9/11 was payback for an afghani bombing, which in my mind, payback is a word used by War Hawk fan boys and not commonly heard on the mouths of peacey greens. Payback, is meant to explain a justified return of hostilities.

Maybe you should change the word Stern. But then I got to asking myself; Why would Stern use a word like payback, and use the rhetoric of, "if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?" if he was all for giving into peace and intellectual freedom?

Your tone has changed indeed, albeit slightly. I've never seen you attempt to justify attacks or retalliations. Never. This is a change for you, and I'm wondering why the change? Did you bother to look at what I've gathered off of Palestinian TV?

For Solaris, Care to argue that Hamas is not what they make themselves out to be? Perhaps you should hear some of their statements on their television network, and find out exactly what was Hamas goal in its staged voters military coup.

but thanks for wasting my time yet again by commenting on something you havent even seen

Oh, no thank you for assuming I had'nt seen it. By the end of the day, you'll be thinking I have'nt even been to PrisonPlanet. I knew about it probably long before most people have.

I searched it out for answers on Wacco.

"the ps3 is the crappiest console ever, despite the fact that I know nothing about it and have never played it ...but I know it's crap, because I have a gut instinct in these sort of things"

Stern, can you stay on topic for at least five minutes?

 

[Some_God]

K e r b e r o s, you're my hero.

 

[Solaris]

I don't understand what your arguing there Kerbosa.

Are you saying the USA's foreign policy isn't why so many people hate it?
You don't think that killing civillians creates terrorism?

You seem to just be commenting on sterns choice of words there.

And Hamas won not becuase of there Islamic fundamentaalism, but becuase of there involvement on local levels and coming from the general populace.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Are you saying the USA's foreign policy isn't why so many people hate it?
You don't think that killing civillians creates terrorism?

Solaris, stop. Those are your questions, not mine.

Oh, for your last question, I have this rhetoric for you. Since you believe the killing of civilians is what generates terrorism, then how do you perceive 9/11 and its possible outcome? What new terrorists will be born out of its wake?

Have'nt you ever thought, the Bush administrations alledged version of government terrorism is infact a return response to 9/11 terrorist attacks?

And Hamas won not becuase of there Islamic fundamentaalism, but becuase of there involvement on local levels and coming from the general populace.

I also find it odd they managed the polling places that had the highest voting turnouts. Course, maybe thats just the leftie inside of me screaming "OMG Vote Fraud" from the previous two Bush elections over Gore and ... that one guy, Kerry.

You seem to just be commenting on sterns choice of words there.

Thank you, Captain Obvious! *Salutes*

 

[Solaris]

Solaris, stop. Those are your questions, not mine.
What?

Oh, for your last question, I have this rhetoric for you. I know you think killing civilians creates terrorism. Have'nt you ever thought, the Bush administrations alledged version of government terrorism is infact a return response to 9/11? If killing civilians (9/11) is what causes terrorists, anyway.

No, you created terrorists pre 911. And continue to make more, which in facts helps the administration by keeping the populace in a state of fear, and allows more attacks to be made, to get thoose damn terrorists.

They said there were no terrorists in Iraq, well look theres thousands of them, they attack the police or Soldiers almost everyday. Were they always terrorists? I don't think so.

 

[CptStern]

Your right, the idea a country could go to war for Oil, or the thought Bush Junior going in there to finish up the first Gulf War were Bush senior left off, is utter nonsense and should'nt be believed. Pure folly, I agree.

you dont know the reason do you?

You'd deny your own arguement?

gibberish masquerading as wit aside ..please point out where I say I agree with it

You and Solaris were practically sand bagging each other with PrisonPlanet. I agree with some of what they say [PrisonPlanet], but it was this "rhetoric" that caught my mind. In your own words, you state, "9/11 was indeed payback (in part for the afghani bombings".

yadda yadda yadda ..where do I even mention prison planet?

Perhaps you were just posting an observation, but still, what with your previous clammouring statements of,

I cant decipher your meaning, please try to be clear or failing that try to use simple language so as to not confuse your meaning ..seriously I have the hardest time understanding what you mean ...and I've read Kafka

You've taken a complete change of tone. You gave the statement 9/11 was payback for an afghani bombing, which in my mind, payback is a word used by War Hawk fan boys and not commonly heard on the mouths of peacey greens. Payback, is meant to explain a justified return of hostilities.

splitting hairs, it what he said in not so many words

Maybe you should change the word Stern. But then I got to asking myself; Why would Stern use a word like payback, and use the rhetoric of, "if you saw your family blown to bloody chunks in front of you wouldnt you try to get revenge in any way possible?" if he was all for giving into peace and intellectual freedom?

if I didnt believe my own eyes I'd swear your were speaking in some uncomprehensible language because I dont understand a word you say

Your tone has changed indeed, albeit slightly. I've never seen you attempt to justify attacks or retalliations. Never. This is a change for you, and I'm wondering why the change? Did you bother to look at what I've gathered off of Palestinian TV?

wtf are you talking about? ..seriously, I want to know

Oh, no thank you for assuming I had'nt seen it. By the end of the day, you'll be thinking I have'nt even been to PrisonPlanet. I knew about it probably long before most people have.

I searched it out for answers on Wacco.

what the hell was that? did you see it? by your own admission you didnt ..so you prove my point

Stern, can you stay on topic for at least five minutes?

yes I am to blame for thinking you'd understand analogies that were outside of the scope of our conversation, god forbid I try to rationalise something by comparing to an industry we're all familiar with ...seriously what didnt you understand about that statement?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

What?

You knew what you were asking. Those were questions that belonged to you, and not me in this debate. I know thats not what I asked. Yet, when you asked them I did the gentlemens thing in answering them anyways. Perhaps you just don't want to accept the responses I gave.

Perhaps you could treat me better, Solaris.

No, you created terrorists pre 911.

I did? Solaris, if I'm to blame, did I also invade Iraq and Afghanistan? Who are you accusing? Please, be more direct.

They said there were no terrorists in Iraq, well look theres thousands of them

Yes, so we should stay. Is'int our war against them? It would'nt make sense to leave, now would it? Not unless theirs a tactical advantage to it, but then again, your not thinking for the Coalition now are you?

you dont know the reason do you?

And I assume you know even less in by asking me.

gibberish masquerading as wit aside ..please point out where I say I agree with it

I did. Sometimes, when a mans embarrased, he does either of two things. He gets angry about he's apparent fall, miscalculation, caught on tape moment etc. and takes the humiliation he caused himself, and begins using it on other people so he's not the only one who feels humiliated. In the other case the man accepts, and moves on in good heart. For the latter, I think thats what your doing CptStern, what with your attempts at rhetorical insults.

I think you need to reobserve what I said, because I did point it out. Until you see this and appropriately respond to me, I don't think I owe you much in this part of the debate.

seriously, I want to know

Your veign attempts at dodging the responsibility of answering fool no one Stern. You'll either answer, or be forced to accept your denial and everyones clear vision of it.

The choice is yours Stern.

 

[CptStern]

You knew what you were asking. Those were things that belonged to you, and not me in this debate. I don't even remember asking those questions but I did the gentlemens thing by answering both of them.

oh ursurper of words you shall be made aware post haste, forsooth it is a pox upon them for surely they know of no other so unbecoming

look man I'm not making fun of you ..I genuinely dont understand what you mean 80% of the time ..and it's not for a lack of trying either ...I still dont know what you meant by the above comment

I did. Sometimes, when a mans embarrased, he either does two things. He gets angry about he's fall, miscalculation, caught on tape moment etc. and starts making others feel ... humiliated. Stern, I don't think the other I could provide suites you in this situation.

just indulge me and point out where I support terrorism

I think you need to reobserve what I said, because I did point it out. Until you figure that out and appropriately respond to me, I don't think I have anymore to say to you on this.

well maybe if you made yourself perfectly clear I wouldnt have to post over and over again that I dont understand what you're saying

Your veign attempts at dodging the responsibility of answering fool noone Stern. You'll either answer, or be forced to accept your denial and everyones clear vision of it.

The choice is yours Stern.

IN PLAIN ENGLISH PLEASE, I havent avioded anything because I DONT KNOW WHT THE QUESTION IS

no such word as veign ..it's vain ...or at least that's what I think you mean

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I still dont know what you meant by the above comment

Stern, were not in junior high anymore. You do have the option of acting like an adult, and responding appropriately to my statements like a mature adult would. But, judging from your posts and dissapointingly so, you've chosen to act like a mad teenager.

Suffice to say, I don't think you can handle even that task.

ust indulge me and point out where I support terrorism

Oh, just know now that you said it, and I did'nt.

well maybe if you made yourself perfectly clear I wouldnt have to post over and over

I do make myself perfectly clear. Your just trying to dodge answering my questions. Its no suprise Stern. You don't have to act suprised either. Its a knee-jerk Stern reaction when he's either cornered or caught cold in a debate. Its what were used to!

no such word as veign ..it's vain ...or at least that's what I think you mean

Don't tell me your fretting over english and the correct spelling of words, when for all your posts, I rarely see you capitalize or punctuate.

 

[Ome_Vince]

I don't understand what your arguing there Kerbosa.

Are you saying the USA's foreign policy isn't why so many people hate it?
You don't think that killing civillians creates terrorism?

You seem to just be commenting on sterns choice of words there.

And Hamas won not becuase of there Islamic fundamentaalism, but becuase of there involvement on local levels and coming from the general populace.

-About the US foreign policy. Yes, the USA has a ****ed up foreign policy in some cases, but for gods sake Solaris, the world is NOT black&white. US foreign policy has send troops to Africa to stop genocide while Europe was still twidling its thumbs.
If i were to choose between USA as world "leader" or some middle-eastern country i'd say the USA are saints in comparisson.
US foreign policy isnt all "evil teh pwn" and the source of all terrorism. Thats just plaing stupid.
Sure they grow some terrorism by several ****ed up foreign events, but not all terrorism grows out of mistakes the west makes. You see the world so black&white its incredible.
Also a large portion of terrorism comes from pure fundementalist view of low-educated ppl or indoctrinated hatred against the west.
You seem to forget cultural and religious differences which also form a seed of hatred. US foreign policy at some points simply ignites this pre-laid fuel...

-How about turning your argument and stating Hamas is creating Israeli attacks on palestina by suicide bombing Israel and hiding in residential areas?
If the US spawns terrorism by its foreign policy, by that same logic Hamas spawns israeli attacks on residential areas ( where Hamas likes to hide)..
Im not sucking this out of my thumb btw, read the tactics and ideology of Hamas.
They also won the election because they were able to sow so much anarchy.
In none of the peace proposals has Hamas stopped its violance or agree'd to stop the violance. Why? Because they profit and grow from anti-israeli hatred. If the palestinian-Israeli relations ever heal, the first thing out the door -> Hamas..
The more they get israel to shoot rockets at residential areas in an attempt to target Hamas, the more palestinians join Hamas or sympathize with them (and fund them...).
I have sympathy for the palestinians, but NOT for the Hamas, they are pure terrorists also branded so by the UN ( so not only teh evil usa and/or evil israel).

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Agreed.

 

[CptStern]

Stern, were not in junior high anymore. You do have the option of acting like an adult, and responding appropriately to my statements like a mature adult would. But, judging from your posts and dissapointingly so, you've chosen to act like a mad teenager.

how can I get you to understand that I was telling the truth when I said I didnt understand a lick of what you had said?

Suffice to say, I don't think you can handle even that task.

Oh, just know now that you said it, and I did'nt.

? what the mad teenager part? ..I was teenager before you were born, I dont remember much

I do make myself perfectly clear. Your just trying to dodge answering my questions. Its no suprise Stern. You don't have to act suprised either. Its a knee-jerk Stern reaction when he's either cornered or caught cold in a debate. Its what were used to!

no I am not, I am not one to avoid confrontation, in fact it can be argued that I seek confrontation ..and NO you dont make yourself clear, maybe in your mind you think you do but most of the time I dont understand what you mean

re-state your questions in plain english and I will try my best to answer them

Don't tell me your fretting over english and the correct spelling of words, when for all your posts, I rarely see you capitalize or punctuate.

no actually I was quite proud that I had understood that word, despite being mispelled because that's one of the few words I did understand

 

[K e r b e r o s]

how can I get you to understand that I was telling the truth when I said I didnt understand a lick of what you had said?

Stern, your pulling my chain. I know you understand me.

You even used my own retort against me. Its no mystery Stern you want an excuse to boost your postcount.

I was teenager before you were born, I dont remember much

Probably because you were mad most of the time?!

in fact it can be argued that I seek confrontation

Okay. I've argued that before. Can we have an answer for why you seek confrontation?

re-state your questions in plain english and I will try my best to answer them

Just to humor you ...

Do you believe Vengeance is an effective tool to prove points and solve problems? If so, why?

no actually I was quite proud that I had understood that word, despite being mispelled because that's one of the few words I did understand

Vain can also mean,

vain
adj 1: characteristic of false pride; having an exaggerated sense
of self-importance; "a conceited fool"; "an attitude
of self-conceited arrogance"; "an egotistical
disregard of others"; "so swollen by victory that he
was unfit for normal duty"; "growing ever more
swollen-headed and arbitrary"; "vain about her
clothes" [syn: conceited, egotistic, egotistical,
self-conceited, swollen, swollen-headed]

Those seem to be some of your best characteristics. The description I yanked from the internet also sounds like a coy way to explain an erection ...

 

[CptStern]

Stern, your pulling my chain. I know you understand me.

no, no I dont ..do you think I like spending several posts repeating that I dont understand you?

You even used my own retort against me. Its no mystery Stern you want an excuse to boost your postcount.

heh I've never cared about post counts ..it's a stupid thing to be consciously aware of

Probably because you were mad most of the time?!

ya that must be it ..... :upstare: ...that wasnt even remotely funny, if that was your intent

Okay. I've argued that before. Can we have an answer for why you seek confrontation?

oh probably so that I can mentally drive my opponents face into the ground ...it's an aquired taste

Just to humor you ...

Do you believe Vengeance is an effective tool to prove points and solve problems? If so, why?

huh? when did you ask that question or is that a new one? no I dont think vengeance is an effective tool ..and no you'll say "but you wanted revenge for killing your family" ..and I'll respond: "so?, it has nothing to do with political motivations but rather grief"

Vain can also mean,

Those seem to be some of your best characteristics. The description I yanked from the internet also sounds like a coy way to explain an erection ...

hehe if that's the case you used that word incorrectly ..it should have meant:

1. Not yielding the desired outcome; fruitless: a vain attempt.
2. Lacking substance or worth: vain talk.


the vanity part doesnt fit with what you wrote ..so it was your mistake not mine




and what the hell is this about an erection? I cant even begin to fathom your meaning

 

[Sulkdodds]

CHRIST BOTH OF YOU STOP FOR A MOMENT

This whole argument seems to have started about Kerberos thinking Stern was actually JUSTIFYING suicide bombing and DEFENDING it with the following comment:

were I an iraqi who lost his child to coalition bombing the very first thing I'd do is strap myself full of explosives and bear hug the first coalition soldier I saw ...grief does not allow room for rational thinking

Which he wasn't. Translation: 'these people's judgements and rational thinking are clouded by the grief caused.' It might have sounded like he was justifying but as far as I can see he was merely explaining the reasons for it. Not saying it's a good thing. The same with the 'payback' comment. NOT saying it was justified. I don't know whether he meant to infer that it was, but whatever.

GOD.

For those that doubt the power of non-violence:

http://www.cnn.com/resources/video.almanac/1989/tiananmen/tianamen.tanks.large.27sec.mov

 

[CptStern]

wtf? you understood it why is it so hard for Kerberos to do the same?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Don't ask me. D:

 

[Raziaar]

Wasn't that man later murdered?

 

[Solaris]

As great a time that was sulkdods, it didn't stop the army firing on the croud and killing hundreds.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Wasn't that man later murdered?

I thought they eventually ran him over or shot him, he didnt make it out of there alive i think.

 

[Sulkdodds]

And do you really think it would have been better if they'd shot at the Chinese authorities?

The idea that Tank Man was murdered is uncertain and unprovable at best. Several have claimed he still lives. After that incident he was pulled into the crowd and disappeared. It's also a good idea to note that this was AFTER most of the deaths occured (as far as I know).

 

[Raziaar]

And do you really think it would have been better if they'd shot at the Chinese authorities?

Obviously it would have been better. Civilians shooting military is THE WAY TO GO! Violence, death, destruction to the militaries of the world!



/sarcasm

 

[Solaris]

And do you really think it would have been better if they'd shot at the Chinese authorities?

En Mass Yes.

 

[CptStern]

Wasn't that man later murdered?

no I remember on an anniversary of the tiananmen massacre I think it was time magazine that tried to track him down, the person in question was arrested that day but later released

 

[Ome_Vince]

Solaris I disagree. Everybody knows this video now, the man not using violance is the most rememberable thing.
If he were firing an RPG it wouldnt have made such an impact media-wise.

 

[Sulkdodds]

En Mass Yes.

Then they would have been ****ing flattened, Solaris. Possibly by the elite Flying Corps.

 

[Solaris]

Then they would have been ****ing flattened, Solaris. Possibly by the elite Flying Corps.

It would have to be a country wide rebellion. Its happened all over the world in history.

Solaris I disagree. Everybody knows this video now, the man not using violance is the most rememberable thing.
If he were firing an RPG it wouldnt have made such an impact media-wise.

Made great news, but did it stop thoose tanks firing at the crowd?

 

[Raziaar]

Then they would have been ****ing flattened, Solaris. Possibly by the elite Flying Corps.

That reminds me of a joke, if all the people in china jumped at the same time, would it knock the earth out of orbit?

 

[Solaris]

That reminds me of a joke, if all the people in china jumped at the same time, would it knock the earth out of orbit?

Yes It Would And it Will

 

[Sulkdodds]

It would have to be a country wide rebellion. Its happened all over the world in history.

What, like in Russia and (lol?) China? Yeah. We all know how well they worked out. :|

 

[Solaris]

What, like in Russia and (lol?) China? Yeah. We all know how well they worked out. :|

I blame the petit bourgeis vacillations.

 

[Raziaar]

No... It wouldn't. Nothing measurable.

If people weighed on average 1000 lbs, a billion people would weigh a trillion pounds. The earth "weighs" about six sextillion tons. That is more than a trillion times the weight of all the people on earth. So, if all the people on the earth jumped the same direction at the same time, the earth would move less than one trillionth as far in the opposite direction. For example, if everybody jumped two feet directly toward the north star, the earth would move less than a millionth of a millionth of a foot away from that star.

The real kicker is that as soon as those people jump, they start falling back toward the earth and the earth falls back toward them and the net effect is immesurably close to zero. The earth running into hydrogen atoms, cosmic dust and the occasional meteor as it moves around the sun has a greater effect on its orbit than the mother of all coordinated jumps ever could.

The only thing that could be achieved by such a stint, is the lowering of the IQ of man on earth, by believing something like this would achieve desirable effects.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I blame the petit bourgeis vacillations.

Scalar waves? D:

 

[Solaris]

Thats going to derial the thread, I'm sure clarky could change the earths orbit with some kind of scalar wave, he'll probably include it is his next thread.

Anyway, back to the topic. Sometimes when you oppressor will show no mercy violence is the best option.

 

[Sulkdodds]

If the oppressor was showing no mercy Iraq would be a glass crater right now.

See my 'breakdown' post for an explanation of WHY FIGHTING WON'T WORK.

 

[Raziaar]

Thats going to derial the thread, I'm sure clarky could change the earths orbit with some kind of scalar wave, he'll probably include it is his next thread.

Anyway, back to the topic. Sometimes when you oppressor will show no mercy violence is the best option.

If you believe in that and support them so much in their violent, violent ways... Why don't you go over there and lend them a helping hand?




They'd probably cut your head off and air it on a newscast.

 

[Solaris]

If the oppressor was showing no mercy Iraq would be a glass crater right now.

See my 'breakdown' post for an explanation of WHY FIGHTING WON'T WORK.

I did, there just not enough Iraq's fighting back.
Stop fighting each other, get the kids out of daycare and kick thoose soldiers out!

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Clarky and Kirovman would be the UNHOLY UNION OF CRAZYSCIENCE.

And as for you, Solaris, you're nothing more than an idealistic kid who hates America. One of these days, you're going to "dissapear" for the crime of dissenting thoughts :shh:

On a more serious note, compare and contrast this thread with http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101366

The other thread had a simple news article in the first post, which sparked some interesting discussions about pack mentality.

Solaris, your thread has caused nothing but bickering.

Solution? Ban Solaris.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Sulkdodds]

I did, there just not enough Iraq's fighting back.

Then you didn't read the breakdown.
1. This would create so much death.
2. This would just absolutely ****ing piss of America so they'd be sure to elect the most warmongering president.
3. ****ing crazies would then be in power and/or Iraq would collapse into a somalia analogue.
Wouldn't that be awesome.