One Thousand A Month Tortured To Death In Iraq

Also, Communism doesn't work.

Just thought I'd put that in there.

-Angry Lawyer
 
PRVT releases new parody of Bill O'Reilly

I heard that Private is releasing a parody of Bill O'Reilly next monthcalled ''God's Will”. Apparently the movie is a shameless parody of Bill O’Reilly, America’s favourite ultra-conservative, and his incredibly popular program, The O’Reilly Factor. I have not seen the movie as yet, but it appears that the movie is making fun of O’Reilly’s constant “holier than thou” attitude. In the film our anchor man is endowed with the powers of God after claiming that he would make a pretty good job of it, but instead of solving the problems of the world as you would think a good ultra conservative right wing radical would do, he uses his powers to engage in several acts of sexual debauchery
 
What? What's that gotta do with this thread? And why are you posting in politics being a new users? Thats odd.
 
In all truth.
The whole situations f****d, each position I put myself contradicts it self,theres no sides, so much bad apples, people with different idealogies, people with guns, kids getting bombed and growing up wanting to be matrys, so much greif, such a power vacumm. The current state has been infiltrated by militias, tortures widespread, no side really has the moral high ground. Iraq effectively has no infrastructure.

And then I look at my school mates who are joining the army next year and will probably be sent to iraq in a year or two, and our presence there jus isn't worth it. We're not preventing anything, or helping to maintain law and order. The Iraqis we train use such horrible tactics.

We can now do nothing to prevent whats happening, the people responcable for creating such chaos in Iraq should be held responcable for such ireversable damage they've done.

Pull out, so no more lives from our countries need to be wasted fighting in vain for something that gets no-one nowhere.
 
Pull out, so no more lives from our countries need to be wasted fighting in vain for something that gets no-one nowhere.
Click to expand...

Wait a second, I thought you supported our troops dying over there, at the hands of freedom fighting insurgents?

You said that the military deserves to get shot at, deserves to be attacked, just like you said Israel's military deserves to be shot at, deserves to be attacked and killed.


Why does this sound SO wrong?
 
Raziaar said:
Wait a second, I thought you supported our troops dying over there, at the hands of freedom fighting insurgents?

You said that the military deserves to get shot at, deserves to be attacked, just like you said Israel's military deserves to be shot at, deserves to be attacked and killed.


Why does this sound SO wrong?
Click to expand...
No I said the people are right to rebel and shoot at the soldiers, but that doesn't mean the soldiers deserve to be shot at.
 
Solaris said:
No I said the people are right to rebel and shoot at the soldiers, but that doesn't mean the soldiers deserve to be shot at.
Click to expand...

But their deaths are justified. The deaths of Iraqi insurgents aren't justified in your eyes, but the deaths of soldiers are?

Wrong. Some do some don't. It is justified for a Palestinian to shoot at some Isreali soldiers.
Click to expand...

Different battle, same scenario.
 
Raziaar said:
But their deaths are justified.



Different battle, same scenario.
Click to expand...
Thats the whole problem with the conflicting condundrums, which can only be solved by withdrawing.
 
Solaris said:
In all truth.
The whole situations f****d, each position I put myself contradicts it self,theres no sides, so much bad apples, people with different idealogies, people with guns, kids getting bombed and growing up wanting to be matrys, so much greif, such a power vacumm. The current state has been infiltrated by militias, tortures widespread, no side really has the moral high ground. Iraq effectively has no infrastructure.

And then I look at my school mates who are joining the army next year and will probably be sent to iraq in a year or two, and our presence there jus isn't worth it. We're not preventing anything, or helping to maintain law and order. The Iraqis we train use such horrible tactics.

We can now do nothing to prevent whats happening, the people responcable for creating such chaos in Iraq should be held responcable for such ireversable damage they've done.

Pull out, so no more lives from our countries need to be wasted fighting in vain for something that gets no-one nowhere.
Click to expand...


You actually come close to putting forward a reasonable and mature post here.

As for a coalition pull out saving lives, as Iraq lunges towards civil war is debatable, but this can and will no doubt be debated by many at a later stage.
 
Solaris said:
Made great news, but did it stop thoose tanks firing at the crowd?
Click to expand...

Would firing RPG's at the tanks stop them? No, they would lose..
And the media impact would be minimal....
In these types of situations, you need the maximum exposure through the media without the "who's right or wrong debate".
China got a bad name that day and everybody remembers.

If the Iraqi insurgents/palestinians resist in that way, it would make better news and more ppl would be against the war than if they were throwing grenades and killing soldiers/civilians..

-If insurgents kill a soldier/suicide bomb a group, then the soldiers kill the insurgents, you need a long argument to debate why/if and the insurgent was "right" (if you can even call it that)..

-If the insurgent blocks tanks without violance and gets killed by the "ruthless" soldiers, there is no discussion needed and everybody agree's its sick and the army was/is wrong.

You see the power of non-violance????
 
Ome_Vince said:
Would firing RPG's at the tanks stop them? No, they would lose..
Click to expand...
Not if enough people had RPGs

And the media impact would be minimal....
In these types of situations, you need the maximum exposure through the media without the "who's right or wrong debate".
China got a bad name that day and everybody remembers.
Click to expand...
Ye becuase thanks to that guy Chinas now free.

If the Iraqi insurgents/palestinians resist in that way, it would make better news and more ppl would be against the war than if they were throwing grenades and killing soldiers/civilians..
Click to expand...
Probably wouldn't make news, not on Fox and CNN anyways. And they'd porbably be shot, iraqi protests have been shot on before
-If insurgents kill a soldier/suicide bomb a group, then the soldiers kill the insurgents, you need a long argument to debate why/if and the insurgent was "right" (if you can even call it that)..
Click to expand...
#
He was resiting, whether he was right to do what he did, he took out a portion of the occupying forces, if yenough people did that then the coallition would have to withdraw.
-If the insurgent blocks tanks without violance and gets killed by the "ruthless" soldiers, there is no discussion needed and everybody agree's its sick and the army was/is wrong.
Click to expand...
Look at fallujah, or Aru Garab or Guantamano, all these atrocities, yet wheres the outcry.
 
Solaris said:
Look at fallujah, or Aru Garab or Guantamano, all these atrocities, yet wheres the outcry.
Click to expand...
Do you live under a rock?
 
Sulkdodds said:
Do you live under a rock?
Click to expand...
Over here yes, but can we do anything? No? Becuase the general American public are too damn stupid.
 
Solaris said:
Not if enough people had RPGs
Click to expand...
RPG's dont destroy tanks buddy. Enough ppl having RPG's would have resolved in a pointless battle in which the army could say "what were we suppost to do they shot at us".
What if Ghandi ran around attacking the English, you think we would remember him today? No..

Solaris said:
Probably wouldn't make news, not on Fox and CNN anyways. And they'd porbably be shot, iraqi protests have been shot on before
Click to expand...
it WOULD make the news. Iraqi insurgents firing RPG's make the news? no ways!! If they videotape a guy blocking tanks, who gets shot, it would make a 100x more impact than if he was holding a weapon...

Solaris said:
He was resiting, whether he was right to do what he did, he took out a portion of the occupying forces, if yenough people did that then the coallition would have to withdraw.
Click to expand...
No, the coalition would have the right to use MORE violance. You forget it was not the Vietcong that beat the US army, it was the homeland and international pressure that forced the US to pull back.

Solaris said:
Look at fallujah, or Aru Garab or Guantamano, all these atrocities, yet wheres the outcry.
Click to expand...

You are living in another world arent you? the US-Europe relations got smashed the day they invaded Iraq, and they're still in quarels about it.
Guantamano Bay prison is news as Amnesty International keeps its eye on it and condems it. The world speaks badly about Guantamano Bay.

In Fallujah the US managed to minimize press exposure, which kept it more under wraps. The fact that the city was rebelling and fighting the US army made it less of a "point" and atrocity.

Violance makes less of an impact than non-violance in a world-view (if your trying to prove the other is violant and should leave..).
I cant pursuade/show John's daddy that John is a violant asshole by beating him up can i?
 
Ome_Vince said:
RPG's dont destroy tanks buddy. Enough ppl having RPG's would have resolved in a pointless battle in which the army could say "what were we suppost to do they shot at us".
What if Ghandi ran around attacking the English, you think we would remember him today? No..
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know much about England withdrawing from the colonies, so I can't really say much about Ghandi.

it WOULD make the news. Iraqi insurgents firing RPG's make the news? no ways!! If they videotape a guy blocking tanks, who gets shot, it would make a 100x more impact than if he was holding a weapon...
Click to expand...
In Iraq he'd be shot and they'd say they thought he was a suicide bomber.
No, the coalition would have the right to use MORE violance. You forget it was not the Vietcong that beat the US army, it was the homeland and international pressure that forced the US to pull back.
Click to expand...
They put up a brave and heroic battle, that forced the US to withdraw becuase there were too many casualties.

In Fallujah the US managed to minimize press exposure, which kept it more under wraps. The fact that the city was rebelling and fighting the US army made it less of a "point" and atrocity.
Click to expand...
Fallujah was an attrocity, and was there any American outcry? No.
 
Solaris said:
They put up a brave and heroic battle, that forced the US to withdraw becuase there were too many casualties.
Click to expand...
Honestly, if you think the Vietcong were 'heroic' (I guess they were brave, in a sense) then you need to read up on the subject.

EDIT: Ome Vince is correct. PR won Vietnam, and not sheer brutality (although the fact that the Vietcong managed to keep the US tied up so long contributed much to it).
 
Solaris said:
I honestly don't know much about England withdrawing from the colonies, so I can't really say much about Ghandi.


In Iraq he'd be shot and they'd say they thought he was a suicide bomber.

They put up a brave and heroic battle, that forced the US to withdraw becuase there were too many casualties.


Fallujah was an attrocity, and was there any American outcry? No.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should dig more into history books, and start by reading about Ghandi, and you'll understand it better.
In an age where colonies were normal, and uprises beat-down, Ghandi was able to get the world pressure on England to withdraw, without using a single gun or cannon. The press reported this and pressure was put on England, because they couldnt justify their actions against the natives ( had Ghandi used force, it would have been a longer and more bloody battle )..

No, the Vietcong didnt force the US to withdraw on casualties, the US suffered 500k dead in WW2, thats more than 10x the amount of dead that Vietnam caused the US... IT was the first media-war. Not even in IRaq did the press have such coverage as they did in Vietnam.

O, and your "he'd be shot and they would claim he was a suicide bomber" is total bs. When 2 women were shot in their car because they ignored a stop-sign from US troops, -> shot and killed -> The news + Us stated it was a mistake, not that the women were "suicide bombers" or whatever.
Your portraying as if the US would ly about everything, thats kinda over the top..
 
Solaris said:
I'm just condeming the west for what its doing in Iraq. I'm not going to ignore it becuase other people do such things.
Click to expand...

How about condeming the terrorists for what they are doing in Iraq, that might work to.
 
Max35 said:
How about condeming the terrorists for what they are doing in Iraq, that might work to.
Click to expand...


why should he? have you condemned the west? or do you just condemn the terrorists and turn a blind eye to what caused them to be there in the first place?
 
Well, the US has the biggest black mark in history by the west because of the Iraq invasion. Relations with Europe destroyed which will take time to heal, not to mention the trust shattered. European union even shook as some countries allied with the US, some didnt.
Its fair to say the US has been condemned alot lately..
 
Yes, its the only thing that kept my trust in the west, and believe in the long-run we all learn from our mistakes.
Question is, will others learn from their mistakes? or only brand those as ours too?
 
learn from their mistakes? the US hasnt learned anything since 9/11 ...the cia predicted there'd be "blowback" prior to 9/11, the war on terror and specifically the invasion of iraq will bring about blowback of unprecedented porportions


oh and the war in iraq wasnt an intelligence "mistake" ..it was a planned calculated move to deceive the public into occupying a nation that posed no threat to the US or the world ...the only mistake was underestimating the insurgency
 
CptStern said:
oh and the war in iraq wasnt an intelligence "mistake" ..it was a planned calculated move to deceive the public into occupying a nation that posed no threat to the US or the world ...the only mistake was underestimating the insurgency
Click to expand...

Yup, right on. The administration will do anything it can to stretch its power and legal limits as much as possible. And it always shift the blame.
 
CptStern said:
learn from their mistakes? the US hasnt learned anything since 9/11 ...the cia predicted there'd be "blowback" prior to 9/11, the war on terror and specifically the invasion of iraq will bring about blowback of unprecedented porportions


oh and the war in iraq wasnt an intelligence "mistake" ..it was a planned calculated move to deceive the public into occupying a nation that posed no threat to the US or the world ...the only mistake was underestimating the insurgency
Click to expand...

I was talking about the long run. In the future, generations will look back on this and learn, why? -> because its been stated as "a mistake" by the west.
The US government ofcourse doesnt see it that way now, but then again they didnt see Vietnam as a mistake either (back then).

Im talking about acknowledgement of fault, will the middle-east see terrorism as a rightious counter-move to counter the US? Or will it learn from that mistake.
No matter how understandable any spawn of terrorism is, its wrong, plain wrong. Will they see it that way too in the future?
 
you overestimate the general publics attention span and memory

US intervention in el salvador, niceragua, the congo, honduras, Guatemala, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Indonesia has been all but forgotten ..even during this war people's memories are getting uzzy ..it went from a war to stop wmd to a war of humanitarism and people lapp it up as if it's their last meal

"we went into iraq to save the poor people of iraq from a madman" ..is actually a quite common answer when asked why they're there
 
ofcourse. I agree but the scale of this war is about 10x larger than any of the military events you listed there. (scale as in world view, knowledge and amount of countries involved directly for or against this)
Iraq will not be forgotten...
the worlds attention is/has been focussed on Iraq for years now, its not "under the radar"/or only a blimp like most of the stuff you listed.
And I think only real idiots would "still" think the US went there to "save the poor iraqi's from evil saddam"...
 
CptStern said:
you overestimate the general publics attention span and memory

US intervention in el salvador, niceragua, the congo, honduras, Guatemala, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Indonesia has been all but forgotten ..even during this war people's memories are getting uzzy ..it went from a war to stop wmd to a war of humanitarism and people lapp it up as if it's their last meal

"we went into iraq to save the poor people of iraq from a madman" ..is actually a quite common answer when asked why they're there
Click to expand...

Unfortunately those incidents are not implanted in the public's memory enough to make the government stop this type of BS.
 
And I think only real idiots would "still" think the US went there to "save the poor iraqi's from evil saddam"...
Click to expand...
Half of Britian and America....

God help us all.
 
Ome_Vince said:
ofcourse. I agree but the scale of this war is about 10x larger than any of the military events you listed there. (scale as in world view, knowledge and amount of countries involved directly for or against this)
Iraq will not be forgotten...
the worlds attention is/has been focussed on Iraq for years now, its not "under the radar"/or only a blimp like most of the stuff you listed.
And I think only real idiots would "still" think the US went there to "save the poor iraqi's from evil saddam"...
Click to expand...


but it has been forgotten ..sanctions anyone? over a million iraqis died during 12 years of horrible conditions brought upon by the purposeful devestation of iraq's infrastructure yet they are forgotten

"And I think only real idiots would "still" think the US went there to "save the poor iraqi's from evil saddam"

I'm willing to bet that a majority of americans believe that ..a poll conducted last year showed americans still believed saddam was behind or had something to do with 9/11.
 
CptStern, Those are Americans...
Forgive me Americans around here, but the typical American in general is not famous for having a very extensive world view. (hope i dont get fired as i work for americans :p hehe )
Its basically the fate of larger countries. Russian and Chinese ppl also hardly know/ or learn to understand the world.
They're countries are so large the majority focusses on that. Lets not be so easy to point fingers here..

Also, sanctions? You have to understand bringing in sanctions against the most powerfull country who also happened to help save us from the Nazi's only 60 years ago is a BIG step to take..
The Marshall plan ensured my country as long as most of the European countries could grow again.
America is like the best buddy of Europe, you dont bring in sanctions very easily...
I'd say the stand of the west over Iraq was pretty good considering the circumstances.

And dont underestimate the americans in their ability to see things..
 
Solaris said:
Not if enough people had RPGs
Click to expand...


With your logic, the world would be in a perpetual state of bitter, horrible violence.

The oppressors would be murdered and killed by the oppressed with as powerful of means of violence as possible, and those who are removed from power would feel oppressed by the others, and the cycle would continue forever.

Why can't you just admit that there are cases where violence is a bad thing. Supporting radical action all the time is not healthy for humanity.
 
Ome_Vince said:
You meen during Saddams campaign against Iran or his regime in total?
Click to expand...

there were no sanctions against iraq during the war with iran ..I mean the ones that were imposed in the lead up to desert storm back in 1991
 
Nope, as far as i know there were no sanctions on Iraq before Desert Storm.
Saddam was seen as "just another dictator" and hardly on the UN radar.
The speed at which he invaded Kuweit caused the west to have to act fast->we need that oil :)
 
yes I know there were no sanctions prior to the gulf war, but the UN did condemn saddam's use of wmd against iran ..guess who protected them from irans attempt to bring saddam in front of an international war crimes tribunal for crimes against humanity? yup they be hypocrites
 
Sure, i know the US-Iraq previous relations.
Are you forgetting that the ppl that exported Chemical weapons (ingredients) to Iraq are being trialed in Den Haag?
I believe there's 1 dutch and 1 german involved from within Europe.
Its not "all forgotten", its just Saddam who hasnt been delt with..

I personally think Saddam should be delivered to the internation court aswell, but i doubt thats going to happen. He probably knows to much and must die asap.
Nevertheless my point is these things dont get forgotten to easy. After major screw-ups here and there, i doubt Iraq will be forgotten.
This is too big, and 9/11 probably justifies invading Afghanistan, but by no means is a good excuse for Iraq.
Even if a large proportion of America thinks it is justified (which is doubt), its not a representative for the entire western world, in which most condem the Iraq war.

Also the scale of public world knowledge,interest and military arsenal is comparable with Vietnam, the black stain on US history, so its by no means small enough to slip through the cracks of history.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top