Out of Body Experiences and Games

[Tyguy]

this morning i tried and noticed my bed felt like it was like shaking when i was relaxed....really weird

 

[Geogaddi]

Since I've been practicing relaxation/trance methods, I've noticed my dream recall increase from zilch to two or three dreams a night.

 

[Gorgon]

this morning i tried and noticed my bed felt like it was like shaking when i was relaxed....really weird

I had the same problem last 3 weeks, its really bad......

i NEED to relax more, enjoy the weather and drink more cold milk to help the nerv system.

 

[theotherguy]

Yes, there are similarities. Most hardcore LDers think of OOBE as a glorified LD, LDing is what they know. On the forum you referenced this would be the popular opinion among the LDers. But if you notice, most of them have never experienced an OOBE. Even in the OOBE section of their forum, there are rarely posts by anyone who actually had an OOBE. It's usually LDers talking about OOBEs. There are fundamental differences between the LD(even WILD) and OOBEs, but most of the differences deal with the differences in lucidity/awareness and control. In a LD, you are closer to a dream, while in OOBE you are not. It would be difficult to say that an OOBE and a LD are completely different in regards to their basic natures, but there are fundamental differences in their experience. You could say that when you are LDing, your driving a mercedes, and while your OOBEing your flying the Starship Enterprise. Both methods of travel are basically the same, a means to get from one place to another, yet in their experience and capabilities they are very different. Your basically doing the same thing when you LD as when you OOBE, but the way you experience it and what you can do with the experience is so drastically different between the two that it's more accurate to think of them as two seperate things.

.

and what are these fundamental differences?

Everything you have described about OOBE has been exactley the same as the ones I experienced during WILD. The only difference is your insistance on the reality of actually leaving your body.

If the methods of getting there are exactley the same, and the experience itself is nearly identical, then they are the same thing.

Every WILD I have had has begun with an OOBE, and I suspect that happens quite alot for everyone.

I think that the only fundamental difference is your level of awakedness. I always WILD when I am very tired (its faster that way) and this is why it is dreamlike. It sounds like your OOBE is just inducing a WILD while fully awake, which is extremely difficult, but probably gives you the incredibly realistic experience you have described. I give you kudos for your ability.

Have you tried going other places while you OOBE? How about using Lucid Dreaming techniques like spinning, looking at your hands, and willing yourself into new places? Have you tried going out to the street? Flying? Do you have a physical body while you OOBE?

I guess I'm not quite sure of the differences...but I am willing to try your method myself to verify them.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Since I've been practicing relaxation/trance methods, I've noticed my dream recall increase from zilch to two or three dreams a night.

Yeah, it's amazing what an effect it has. The dreams tend to be much longer and clearer as well

If the methods of getting there are exactley the same, and the experience itself is nearly identical, then they are the same thing.

Yes, but the discussion here obviously is whether an out of body experience is a lucid dream or if a lucid dream is an out of body experience.

I think that the only fundamental difference is your level of awakedness. I always WILD when I am very tired (its faster that way) and this is why it is dreamlike. It sounds like your OOBE is just inducing a WILD while fully awake, which is extremely difficult, but probably gives you the incredibly realistic experience you have described. I give you kudos for your ability.

An OOBE may drift off into a dream if you dont focus and "daydream", which leads me to the assumption that dreams are simply out of body experiences where you're completely unaware of it, and giving the fluid nature of the environment, your subconscious influences everything and creates all the situations you experience when you dream.
You could compare it to living in your own little bubble, while an LD makes you see the bubble and gives you the opportunity to burst it, an OOBE or WILD starts with no bubble at all.

I find it hard to believe that an OOBE simply is a very lucid dream considering the way you can contact other OOBErs and observe information in the real world.

 

[theotherguy]

oh please. It's far more logical to assume that all of them are the same thing: dreams.

There are just varying states of them.

Your mind is a vast interconnected network of tiny computers all running in parallel. Their software is all algorithmically generated by DNA, and all of these interacting computers create an overall state of consciousness. When you dream, all of these computers go into a new state, where they are unaffected by external sources and thus cannot respond to them.

Since they must continue running to function, they have to be fed data, so they get data from memory, rather than external perception. They then interpret these memories literally, so your overall conscious state sees it as an actual experience, an actual event.

But the memories are not taken in whole chunks. This is why we simply don't play movies in our heads of memories while we dream. The memories are taken in tiny, fragmented parts by each individual neuron. Then, other neurons arrange these tiny fragments into something that is coherent and makes sense.

This is very similar to how your brain puts together all of the information from the billions of neurons in your body to form a state of consciousness. The only difference is that when you dream, neurons are being fed random data from memories.

And here is the tricky part. If your conscious mind can determine as a whole that it is being fed random garbage, you become lucid. Once you are lucid, you can selectively call on different memories, or even imagination (which is, after all memory with creative composition) to create an image.

The difference with WILD is that you begin in a state of consciousness. You expect that the neurons are going to feed you random data, so when it happens you are ready, and instantly have control. With this control, your brain automatically creates an image based on what data it was most recentley fed, which is most often that of your room.

If you're observant, you can notice slight imperfections in the image: strange colors, strange shapes, things that weren't supposed to be there. This is due to your brain not fully taking in its surroundings, and it fills in the gaps with random memories and imagination.

Once you notice the imperfections, it becomes very clear that you are not actually outside of your body, and that the image is simply created by your mind. The OOBE is simply the default state of a WILD, the main menu of your dream.

The only difference between OOBE and a true WILD therefore is that some people never choose to leave the main menu, or mess with the options a bit, or actually use the program. They simply say "oh wow, I'm floating outside of my body, this is amazing!" (which I admit, was my first reaction to WILD)

It only truly becomes WILD once you realize the potential that the entire thing is created by your mind.

EDIT: here, I've created a diagram.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Like I said, i find it highly improbable that it is created solely by my own mind if I can meet up with someone while OOBE in a particular area, then later talk with this person via MSN with him remembering the exact same thing, in the exact same area.

I'm not going to try and convince you what i find the most "logical", but I'd suggest you to do what i did, take a deck of cards, put one card(making sure you dont see it) on the top of a drawer or somewhere else where it's lying pretty safe. WILD/OOBE and observe it, then when you're awake, check if it was the same as in your experience.

In my opinion, it's not as logical as it is, in a weird sense, safer to assume the same ideas as you've always had, but in the face of new proof it changes eventually. I believe there's no doubt that this new phenomenon is going to be highlighted and thoroughly explored in the science world in the near future.

If you're observant, you can notice slight imperfections in the image: strange colors, strange shapes, things that weren't supposed to be there. This is due to your brain not fully taking in its surroundings, and it fills in the gaps with random memories and imagination.

There are no imperfections when you're fully, consciously OOBEing. If anything, it's far more clear and vibrant than physical seeing. There's no focus, you see everything in the same clarity. It's like putting a photoshop "sharpen" filter on your vision. Like I mentioned earlier, it's even possible to view in all degrees at once.

OOBE's when you're a beginner, and OOBE's in general that are performed when you're tired or 'unfocused' (as you mentioned yourself you WILD when you're somewhat mentally tired) are more along the lines of dreams. But proper OOBes and dreams, for me, are completely different. I enjoy the clarity of OOBEs so much i often spend long periods of time observing the details of things and the environments, because everything is so unbelievably clear. I can't possibly remember them in the same clarity. (which makes me kind of pissed off occasionally..)

Also considering the effect the mind has on your environment, simply believing it's a dream could possibly create the imperfections and inclarity of a dream.

I'm not denying the brain, or all the thousand functions of the mind. What I'm saying is that it might as well work in conjunction with this phenomenon.

This is why we simply don't play movies in our heads of memories while we dream.

Anyone who has worked for longer periods of time achieving mental clarity through meditation or similar, in conjunction with OOBEs or dream recall, would disagree. Most of my dreams are completely coherent. I smell, sense, feel and hear. Almost all are extremely long lasting throughout the night usually depicting a journey of some kind, much like a movie, lasting a week or so in 'dream time'. Your dreams, or what you remember of them and the way they play out are a good way of seeing your ability to focus. Generally dreams are incoherent if you are mentally incoherent, buzzing from one thing to another all the time. The average person can't concentrate on one single thing for more than 6 seconds.

It's like a muscle that has to be trained.

I remember the first times i started hearing the wind and just general sounds in my dreams, and feel my feet on the ground, it was really cool. But it's a slow evolving process, which, in my opinion, is totally worth the time and effort.

The OOBE world is a realm where the mind and heavily grounded beliefs have a huge influence if you let it, and I'd completely agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that I have personally experienced the fact that you can take in consistent information from the physical world and encounter other OOBEers.

The only difference between OOBE and a true WILD therefore is that some people never choose to leave the main menu, or mess with the options a bit, or actually use the program. They simply say "oh wow, I'm floating outside of my body, this is amazing!"

As a counter, you might say that the difference between WILD and OOBE is singleplayer and multiplayer.
Additionally, I've never heard of any OOBEr spending their experiences simply awed by the fact that they're floating outside their body. If anything, you try to make use of it as much as possible by enjoying physically impossible moves or going places with the speed of light.

The most amazing thing i've experienced has to be floating in space, and around the sun. It's such an overwhelming thing to experience it's simply impossible to describe it in a situation like this.

Just as a sidenote, if i for some reason appear overly hostile it's really not my intention, I really dont want to get into a feisty argument here, especially not with you as I really respect you and can relate to your situation, theotherguy.

I just noticed your diagram and thought i'd compare OOBE vision to daily life vision.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/CrazyHarij/normalvision.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/CrazyHarij/oobevision.jpg

note that you dont have a "fish" vision per se, its just that your line of sight, well there really is no line of sight because there's no limit to how many degrees you can see in.

 

[theotherguy]

If you wanted to prove yourself that you were actually going anywhere, conduct a scientific study with a third party. Don't just talk to someone, have someone around while you OOBE, and have them write a number down or something in another room. When you OOBE, look at this number, and then when you come back to consciousness tell the other person the number you observied without looking at the number.

Repeat this multiple times and have the other person write down the results without discussing them with you.

After several trials, look at the results. If the number is more often than not the same, then I would beleive you fully that you are actually leaving your body. If the number is almost never the same, then it is an illusion created in your mind.

The clarity in your image is similar to what I experience in WILD. 360 vision, no depth of field, perception through objects, etc. But this is only in a very advanced state, when you have complete control over your mind. The reason it keeps progressing is because it is like any skill. The more you practice at it, the better you become at controlling your thoughts, and you can devote more power to rendering the world around you, and less to thinking about it.

I have found that when my mind wanders, images fade, and I have to focus on something to bring it back. I truly beleive that this is due to your conscious mind's control over the situation, and when you think of other things your mind has less power available to render the scene, and thus it loses clarity.

 

[CrazyHarij]

i have been thinking about that actually, and it's weird that not more people have conducted such tests as of now. But I am honestly not at the level where I'm capable of OOBEing at any single try.. Like I said earlier in the thread, it was about a year since i was seriously into it and it happens more spontaneously a few times a month at the absolute most, but I'm getting into it again now.

When I am capable of doing it with enough confidence I'm going to consider visiting the Randi corporation and claim those million dollars they're offering for anyone capable of proving "supernatural" phenomena.
The main argument among alot of scientific people who take distance to things like OOBE claim that if it did work, why aren't they proving it in a proper environment? While I think that 99-100% of mediums etc are completely phony, I think most OOBErs are very unobtrusive and keep it to themselves, mainly because there's no real point in proving it to anyone else if you know it's true for you. In a Freud fashion, feeling the need to prove yourself to others probably point to an insecurity.

I know this probably sounds like typical words of someone who would be faking it, but it's the way it is for me.

I'm not in the mood for a crusade or anything just to prove how wrong alot of people are. I'm better off as it is now, but that sum of money could help quite alot..

I have found that when my mind wanders, images fade, and I have to focus on something to bring it back.

For me, unexpected elements are brought in, or i am pulled back to my body.. sometimes I do drift into a dream but it doesnt happen very often. I suspect "falling dreams" that you have before you wake up are because you're pulled back to your body, the sensations are identical to being pulled back when you're OOBEing, and when you're dreaming I'd suppose your mind comes up with the appropriate imagery.

 

[Ennui]

This thread is ****ing awesome.

 

[ÞIcarus]

A dream, a LD, a WILD, and an OOBE are all basically the same action, and yet all are fundamentally different in the way the environment works and is percieved that, as I said, it's best to think of them as completely different things. You think of a LD as something different than a dream, even though you are dreaming during both instances. You think of a WILD as something different than a typical LD, as your mind is much clearer and less prone to falling into more of a dream state. The fundamental difference between a OOBE and an LD(or WILD for that matter), is that during an OOBE your awareness is completely removed from the charactaristics of a typical dreamstate, even those states associated with a LD or WILD. You can recieve objective information from the environment(be it the physical environment or otherwise), you can have a much greater control of the environment, you can interact with other people(OOBErs), you retain better memory of the experience than you would a LD(or WILD), all of these and more are reason enough to differentiate between a LD and an OOBE.

The typical tests that are frequently used to verify to OOBErs that they are having a true experience, such as putting a playing card on top of a piece of furniture and then OOBEing to read it, fail during any other type of experience, such as LD or WILD. It is only during OOBE that these tests work out.


Dreaming is unavoidably linked to the OOBE state in the most basic ways, but that doesn't in any way deminish the significance of the OOBE. Instead, it should tell us that we are unaware of just how significant the act of dreaming actually is. Even though during the most powerfull LD(or WILD) it is clearly evident that the environment is a dreamscape and nothing more, we must not assume that OOBEs are confined to the dreamscape aswell. Only an LDer would assume such a thing, as those who have experienced the depth of an actual OOBE realize instantly the significant differences between the two experiences. An OOBE is as far apart from a LD as the most powerful WILD is from the most cloudy, muddled, half-remembered dream.

Sorry if there are typos I had about 4 long islands not 30 minutes ago and I'm pretty ****ing buzzed right now. I tried to be coherent as possible now Im gonna go crash. Gnight guys!

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It's called daydreaming.

 

[Dekstar]

When I am capable of doing it with enough confidence I'm going to consider visiting the Randi corporation and claim those million dollars they're offering for anyone capable of proving "supernatural" phenomena.

If you want to build up to that, then I suggest you start practicing with lots of electrical interferance around you. The Randi corp. Set up lots of cameras and are usually very obtrusive.

 

[theotherguy]

snip

Link me to a study. I have heard of no such test being preformed.

 

[ÞIcarus]

OOBErs do that stuff al lthe time. The playing card trick is famous in OOBE communities, visit some of them.

 

[theotherguy]

To be beleived it would have to have been preformed by a third party. It would have to be published in a scientific paper. If it's not, it's not a study or an experiment but a parlor trick.

 

[ÞIcarus]

A parlor trick? That attitude is a bit excessively critical, don't you think? To assume such a large community of rational people are living in self-delusion simply because the truth isn't handed to you in the packaging your heart desires seems foolish to me. If you don't want to take up the practice yourself, then the least you could do is go out into the community as I suggested and organize an operation that might suit your standards. You will get alot farther that way than sitting back and waiting for it to fall into your lap, anyway.

You seem to have made up your mind, though. So, do and believe whatever suits you. :imu:

 

[TheDan]

I had surgery on thursday, and I didn't OOBE =( I can't do it at all normally anyway... I've tried several times and I can't seem to get very close. Does anyone have any links to any 'walkthroughs' or similar?

 

[Geogaddi]

Can you point us to some of the better communities for this sort of thing?

 

[Geogaddi]

I just finished watching Waking Life.





I really don't know what to say, it's left me speechless.

 

[DreadLord]

Why can't we just let this thread die its peaceful death? It came so close to dropping off.

 

[Tyguy]

If someone is looking for a walkthrough, there are many. DIfferent things work for alot of people. I have found that relaxing your entire body by tensing your muscles works very well. This puts you into the correct state to start to begin the experience. Take a look here. www.outofbody.co.uk Alot of helpful info and a forum dedicated to people who are seeking advice.

 

[Geogaddi]

The OBE sites I've looked at seem to vary in the level of other bullshit (I think D: ) like witchcraft and stuff.

 

[Tyguy]

The one i gave a link for is great

 

[Ennui]

I've been trying this for a few nights now. The first night, I couldn't get anything to happen. I tried again a week or so later, and I got the beginning of tingling and electricity, where my heart (chakra, i guess) started pounding very hard and fast and i felt very strange. I couldn't focus on projecting my consciousness, though, so it didn't work.

I tried again the next night, this time while I was moderately high (pot). It was completely different. I could focus much better on my energy and chakras, lots of kinetic sensations of it all, and I was able to concentrate much better on relaxing and projecting. I managed to nearly project - I got to the point where I started feeling the electric crap, and I felt very tingly and strange, in a very intense way, and it felt/seemed like I was hurtling through some mental tunnel in my brain at warpspeed, then I broke through and NEARLY projected. I couldn't move around, but I was in a very weird state that reminded me strongly of my lucid dreaming experiences. I think I was projecting, but not quite enough to leave my body, or move. I'm not sure how much of it was real and how much of it was just being high, but it definitely was something.

 

[Geogaddi]

I think I read somewhere that drugs usually hamper projection even if they make it seem easier.

Anyways, I kind of quit trying but I'm going to pick it up again after I get over this damn virus.

 

[Tyguy]

Ya im bumping this thread cause its interesting.......