Poll on Abortion

[KoreBolteR]

and stating "abortion as bad as the millions of jews that got murdered in WWII by the nazis"... Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, is Unacceptable. The way those people died were horrific, and were killed by coldblooded Nazis. you should be ashamed of yourself, youve let down yourself and the whole Roman Catholic Society. In my Honest opinion, you should keep your mouth closed next time.

Religious Extremists make me Sick.

 

[dart321]

Only if she takes actions to make that happen. The same way your sperm will only become a baby in a few months if YOU take actions to make it happen. Therefore masturbation is mass murder!

Last I checked, you have to have sex to have a baby. When you are pregnant however, theres not that many actions you have to take buddy. You have to eat right, sleep, and not do a lot of strenuous exercise. Seeing as how, when you are pregnant, your going to do (and not do) all that anyway, it's not much of a stretch for you. Unless of course, you starve yourself, drink 20 cups of coffee a day, and haul sacks of heavy material for a job. Then yeah, it might take a few little life adjustments.

Only in the sense that it's funny (and ironic) that logging is only advocated by those who aren't trees. I mean, sure... trees aren't CAPABLE of advocating anything... but isn't that funny (and ironic) anyway? :upstare:

It is indeed funny (not so much ironic) that your comparing human beings to trees. We use trees as a resource for building houses, firewood, paper production etc. This is NOT the same as killing a baby/"potential" baby.

 

[gcomeau]

Last I checked, you have to have sex to have a baby.

And last time I checked you also have to go through about nine months of pregnancy to have a baby too. Which would you say is the greater inconvenience? Getting laid?

When you are pregnant however, theres not that many actions you have to take buddy.

As opposed to the great many actions you have to take to perform the horizontal mambo no doubt... :upstare:

Maybe you'd like to try carrying a developing fetus around in your gut for 9 months and then try to make that statement again with a straight face?

You have to eat right, sleep, and not do a lot of strenuous exercise.

While hauling around many ever-increasing extra pounds every single minute of every single day, dealing with the significant hormone imbalances which are inflicted on you, actually GIVING BIRTH...

Let's say we strap a sack of weights to your gut and tell you you're not allowed to take it off for nine months while we periodically inject you with behaviour influencing hormones and add weight to the bag every so often... then at the end of our little project we make you pass a giant kidney stone? One so large your ureter may never recover to it's original shape when you're done? I mean, hey, no big deal right? Business as usual...

Seeing as how, when you are pregnant, your going to do (and not do) all that anyway,

Ummmm... no?

It is indeed funny (not so much ironic) that your comparing human beings to trees.

Actually, I'm comparing one thing that's incapable of advocating anything to another thing that's incapable of advocating anything... thus illustrating how incredibly stupid that statement you quoted was.

 

[Locust]

I believe that an abortion, unless the baby and mother are going to die, is wrong in all cases. Sure this stems from my belief in what the Catholic Church teaches, but I have seen the joy that a baby can bring to a relationship that is suffering. Imagine if Jesus would have been aborted by the Virgin Mary. I bet she would have felt very bad that she damned the whole world. Thats my two cents.

 

[dart321]

And last time I checked you also have to go through about nine months of pregnancy to have a baby too. Which would you say is the greater inconvenience? Getting laid?



As opposed to the great many actions you have to take to perform the horizontal mambo no doubt... :upstare:

I'm not arguing that having sex is a greater inconvenience than having a baby. I'm saying that sperm/eggs + normal, healthy life = no baby. Developing fetus after sex + normal, healthy life = baby. It's not about inconvenience, it's about certain actions leading to certain consequences.

Maybe you'd like to try carrying a developing fetus around in your gut for 9 months and then try to make that statement again with a straight face?


While hauling around many ever-increasing extra pounds every single minute of every single day, dealing with the significant hormone imbalances which are inflicted on you, actually GIVING BIRTH...

Let's say we strap a sack of weights to your gut and tell you you're not allowed to take it off for nine months while we periodically inject you with behaviour influencing hormones and add weight to the bag every so often... then at the end of our little project we make you pass a giant kidney stone? One so large your ureter may never recover to it's original shape when you're done? I mean, hey, no big deal right? Business as usual...

Maybe thats why you should have protected sex? Maybe thats why they tell you on TV not to have sex without a condom? But your right, having a baby sounds so horrible! I mean, they can't possibly expect me to bring a life into this world and go through all that even though I had the sex? **** that! I think I'll just kill it and go on with my merry life.

Actually, I'm comparing one thing that's incapable of advocating anything

A baby.

to another thing that's incapable of advocating anything

A ****ing tree.

 

[The Monkey]

I believe that an abortion, unless the baby and mother are going to die, is wrong in all cases. Sure this stems from my belief in what the Catholic Church teaches, but I have seen the joy that a baby can bring to a relationship that is suffering. Imagine if Jesus would have been aborted by the Virgin Mary. I bet she would have felt very bad that she damned the whole world. Thats my two cents.

In a debate like this we must keep religion out of it. The argument "If Jesus was aborted then the world would have been damned" isn't really backed up by real evidence, is it?

 

[Maxi]

This is just my oppinion but...

I'm for abortion, everyone who I have seen to be against abortion, are some wierd super religios fat american women who've probaly never even gotten laid.

 

[Absinthe]

Man, people are still arguing about the moral rights of a potential. Does this ridiculous drivel ever end?

 

[Maxi]

Nope it wont.

Just one question. Is there a debate about abortion outside the US or is it only in the US where it is semi-legal/not legal?

 

[The Monkey]

Nope it wont.

Just one question. Is there a debate about abortion outside the US or is it only in the US where it is semi-legal/not legal?

As far as I know, the only ones that are against it are the conservatives in the US, the Vatican and the Middle-East countries.

 

[Maxi]

That's what I thought. Thanks.

 

[ríomhaire]

As far as I know, the only ones that are against it are the conservatives in the US, the Vatican and the Middle-East countries.

Abortion is ileagal in Ireland. I think it's murder as the constitution says that life begins at conception.

Is it true that in the case of rape in America that an abortion can take place at 9 months?

 

[dart321]

This is just my oppinion but...

I'm for abortion, everyone who I have seen to be against abortion, are some wierd super religios fat american women who've probaly never even gotten laid.

Thats a great argument there. "I want to be cool like all the other kids so I'm against abortion too. I'm not with the losers" I mean, do you not believe its justified or do you just go with what other people are saying because the opposite side has some weird people on it? (We do, I must admit, but so do the pro-choice people. )

There are a lot of people who are non-christian that are against abortion (me included, I'm atheist). Also, not everyone who is against abortion is a conservative.

 

[KoreBolteR]

its nothing to do with religion this.. but Religious priests and leaders try and use thier powers to get other Religious people to agree with them.

as long is the baby isnt properly formed inside the womb, i think the woman still has the right to decide wether she wants this foetus growing in her body. its her body.. her decision!

not some old man who probably raped some little children the night before :x

 

[dart321]

its nothing to do with religion this.. but Religious priests and leaders try and use thier powers to get other Religious people to agree with them.

They have been doing that for quite a while now. this is nothing new. If you had the power to make a lot of people listen, and sympathize with your position, wouldn't you use it too? It's not right, but I can't say I expected anything less from a person with power.

as long is the baby isnt properly formed inside the womb, i think the woman still has the right to decide wether she wants this foetus growing in her body. its her body.. her decision!

not some old man who probably raped some little children the night before :x

This all goes back to when you think that the fetus is actually a human being. This is why, as other people have said, every abortion discussion goes around in circles. All I can say is, I value, not only life, but even just the potential of life to be a very valuable thing worth keeping. You also must understand that abortions happen within 7, 8, or even 9 months into the pregnancy. Do you think it's right then? Do you think everyone makes a decision within 1-3 months of getting pregnant?

Rapes are different. Given the circumstances, an abortion could very well be needed. Also, cases that severely endanger the mother's health are different. An abortion probably should be taken at this scenario.

 

[KoreBolteR]

This all goes back to when you think that the fetus is actually a human being. This is why, as other people have said, every abortion discussion goes around in circles. All I can say is, I value, not only life, but even just the potential of life to be a very valuable thing worth keeping. You also must understand that abortions happen within 7, 8, or even 9 months into the pregnancy. Do you think it's right then? Do you think everyone makes a decision within 1-3 months of getting pregnant?.

1-3 months of gettin pregnant is ok imo, but anything after 4 ..no.

Rapes are different. Given the circumstances, an abortion could very well be needed. Also, cases that severely endanger the mother's health are different. An abortion probably should be taken at this scenario.

u do know that there would be people who want abortions illegal completely. and if what you think above does become law, there would be women complaining, saying "well you can let that woman get rid of hers because of her health, but you wont let me get rid of mine".

either we make all abortions Illegal..
or keep them legal!

i say keep them legal.. as long as the foetus is under 3 or 4 months old.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Don't have sex. People should be proud to be virgins.

 

[AzzMan]

Don't have sex. People should be proud to be virgins.

Yes, because it's so easy to completely ignore the instincts imbedded into out genetic makeup. :thumbs:

Its funny how rightwingers accuse lefties of living in an idealistic world, yet spew this BS about how ppl should not have sex. Yea, that's gonna happen....

Oops before anyone accuses me of leaft leaning, I'll just add that righties and lefties are both gay with eachother, gayer than a pair of lether pants with the ass cut out. Just to be safe.

 

[PickledGecko]

People should be proud to be virgins.

I agree, but I also think people should be proud to be sluts too. If you choose a lifestlyle that makes you happy, you should be free to live it without judgement. What consenting adults do in privacy is their business, whether its an S&M party or just Scrabble.

 

[ríomhaire]

If I got a girl pregnant I wouldn't let her get an abortion.

 

[baxter]

I am undecided either way as to the rights and wrongs of abortions, there are a lot of factors to take into account and most people seem to have genuine beliefs on the matter.

If and only if abortion was to be outlawed, would this not make matters worse? surely it would drive it underground. The back street abortion clinics where women are butchered.

I feel that, whether you agree or disagree with abortion it is surely better as it is, in a clean, controlled medical environment, than driving it underground.

I suppose the question I have, is if you disagree, what would you suggest as an alternative?

 

[ALEXDJ]

I am undecided either way as to the rights and wrongs of abortions, there are a lot of factors to take into account and most people seem to have genuine beliefs on the matter.

If and only if abortion was to be outlawed, would this not make matters worse? surely it would drive it underground. The back street abortion clinics where women are butchered.

I feel that, whether you agree or disagree with abortion it is surely better as it is, in a clean, controlled medical environment, than driving it underground.

I suppose the question I have, is if you disagree, what would you suggest as an alternative?

what you guys fail to realize that each person have to know that each time they have sex, there is allways a chance of gettting pregnet, some people reliy on "protection", and think that they are complitly safe from getting a child, but people that have sex should have more responsobilities and if they don't like it, well dont' have sex

nevertheless, i'm a hypocrite, i almost never take responsobility for such a thing (thinking about children before having sex) and i would probobly make sure that a baby is not born, but i still think abortion is wrong

 

[PvtRyan]

I'm curious, why some people feel it's only justified when the woman is raped, like Dart. You're constantly argueing about the 'potential' and that every life should be treasured, but it suddenly becomes morally OK to do when the woman has been made pregnant against her will. Are you not still removing 'potential' (the same potential to become the next Stalin/Hitler) and a 'life'? Weird logic, does not compute.

 

[Katalyst]

Frankly, if she has the time to be a whore, she should have the time to raise her own child.

 

[Teh_Poet]

No, she should give it up for adoption. If she can't afford having a baby, she shouldn't be sleeping around, even with contraceptives (sp?). It would be better for the child to be alive and in an orphanage (sp?) then to be just another abortion statistic.

 

[Teh_Poet]

If I got a girl pregnant I wouldn't let her get an abortion.

Unfortunately, it's not your choice. But if I got a girl pregnant (which I don't plan on doing until I'm married) I would suggest that she lets the baby live.

 

[Kangy]

Frankly, if she has the time to be a whore, she should have the time to raise her own child.

Where did it say she had unsafe sex, or sex with a person she didn't know well? Heck, even where she sold her body? Where did it even say it was her choice? It didn't. People should never, ever judge on these things. She could've been raped while she was walking home from work, or the contraceptive failed.

 

[OCybrManO]

There is a big difference in my opinion to killing something and putting it to good use ie. eating and killing something and throwing it into a bin to rot.

Ahhh, but you're not making the connection here. Eating meat is no longer a necessary action for your survival. There are now alternatives that do not require death while actually being healthier for you. When we, as a species, were still developing we did not have this luxury and I have no problem with the fact that our ancestors were forced to kill for food in order to survive... but are you telling me, now, that the life of an innocent animal is worth the luxury of food that tastes to your liking? How, then, is the life of an equally innocent animal not worth preventing someone from suffering through 9 whole months of pregnancy, giving birth, potentially losing their job, and various other consequences? I say, if you are for saving one of your God's creatures (I say "your" because, as an agnostic, I don't have a firm belief structure involving any deity at the moment) you should give all of them the same treatment. You know, what would Jesus do... or something like that?

NOTE: If you look at the poll you'll see that I actually haven't voted... as the hypothetical case in the original post was far too vague and I'm still somewhat undecided to begin with on this subject.

 

[dart321]

I'm curious, why some people feel it's only justified when the woman is raped, like Dart. You're constantly argueing about the 'potential' and that every life should be treasured, but it suddenly becomes morally OK to do when the woman has been made pregnant against her will. Are you not still removing 'potential' (the same potential to become the next Stalin/Hitler) and a 'life'? Weird logic, does not compute.

I said (or meant to say) depending on the circumstances of the rape, an abortion may be permitted. I did not say it was suddenly morally justified. I still don't fully agree with it, but sometimes I would think its presented in cases where you just can't say "NO! You will go through this pain now, even though you never asked for it!"

Various physiological issues come into play here. What if the woman resents the child because he/she reminds her of the rape? What if she starts to abuse the child? More importantly what if the child is pained because he/she knows she is the result of a rape?

It depends on how aggressive/brutal the rape was and the mental state of the mother after (and before) the rape.

I still don't think its right to destroy a ("potential") life, but I honestly couldn't look a raped woman (who was asking for an abortion) in the eyes and say, "Too bad, you have to have the baby." It's a gray area for me. I can't straightforward oppose it so I must be neutral.

 

[Zeus]

I agree with abortion. As I saw somewhere in this thread don't remember where but early in the pregnancy I don't see the "baby" to be any more than a ton of skin cells which I kill every day.

 

[Direwolf]

In my mind I've always seen this as a fairly simple argument.
The first step is that no one wants to commit murder. This is universal.
The second is that to murder someone would to be to kill a living person.
The third is that no one can say for sure yet when a child is more than a collection of cells, and has become a person.
The fourth is that this therefore means that the exact point at which life begins is still a belief, in that there is no scientificly certain time.
Therefore whether an abortion is murder or not is based on the beliefs of the person involved. And because of this, its not something the government can dictate. It is up to the persons involved to decide just what it is that they believe, and it is not anyone else's place to tell them what to believe.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

The problem will all ways be our "instincts imbedded into our genetic makeup" az azz man so scientifically put it. Thats the reason we have so much problems in the world. People don't know how to control themselves. I know alot of virgins...You may not, but it's simply a matter of setting boundaries for yourself. Just because you've grown up in a culture that makes it ok to fornicate or go by your "instincts imbedded into your genetic make up" doesnt mean that its a holistic truth that everyone should bow down and worship.

As for gecko....your a fool. You can't be proud of being a slut. You can't be proud of a lot of things no matter how happy it makes you. If there was no judgement then anybody could to whatever the hell they wanted.

 

[PickledGecko]

As for gecko....you’re a fool.

I think I’ve found a quote for my sig.

You can't be proud of being a slut.

I can if I want to.

You can't be proud of a lot of things no matter how happy it makes you.

Yes I can, you can’t stop me.

Oh wait, maybe he means “shouldn’t”. Well, in that case, why not? Because it’s against your religion? Well that doesn’t make any sense. Why should I live my life by the moral code you believe is the right one? Religion is a personal choice, it even says so in your Bible.

Everybody derives pleasure from every choice they make. A consenting adult having sex with another consenting adult is the same as someone going to church. It’s something they do for pleasure. The person having sex gets the chemical release in the brain associated with the act of sex and the person going to church gets the feeling of well being associated with pleasing their God and ensuring a reward in the afterlife. Even a gift to charity is only done because of the feelings of self satisfaction the donator receives. There is no such thing as a selfless act. Everything in life is done with the understanding it will result in some sort of reward.

If there was no judgement then anybody could to whatever the hell they wanted.

True, but who has the right to judge? You? A persons peers? The Courts? God? It seems you have appointed yourself the judge of mankind, would your God be happy with that action?

I never said, “Be a slut and be proud of it”. I merely said that if you aren’t doing anybody any harm, then it doesn’t matter how you do to derive pleasure. If being a virgin makes you happy then fine, do it. (Or should that be “don’t do it”). If having sex makes you happy (consenting adults in privacy and all that), then fine, do it. If it turns out that God doesn’t like shagging around, then that’s a matter between the shagger an God, not you, not me, not their peers and most certainly not the courts.

 

[Pogrom]

I think yes, it is her body so she should choose. **Within reason, I mean; you can't abort a 7 month old foetus.

Once you open that whole argument about abortion being murder you start down the slippery slope that says protected sex is sinful.

e.g. Anytime you have sex, the potential for life is there. If you use any form of contraception, that is stopping a potential life coming into the world.

That's the sort of talk that still ruins many third world countries (thank you very much, Catholic Church).

 

[Apos]

I said (or meant to say) depending on the circumstances of the rape, an abortion may be permitted. I did not say it was suddenly morally justified. I still don't fully agree with it, but sometimes I would think its presented in cases where you just can't say "NO! You will go through this pain now, even though you never asked for it!"

This is morally abhorrent. You seem to be treating whether the baby lives or dies as a matter of PUNISHING THE MOTHER OR NOT depending on what she did. No wonder feminists suspect that what's realy at stake in abortion isn't protecting life, but rather controlling and abusing women.

I still don't think its right to destroy a ("potential") life, but I honestly couldn't look a raped woman (who was asking for an abortion) in the eyes and say, "Too bad, you have to have the baby." It's a gray area for me. I can't straightforward oppose it so I must be neutral.

If so, then I would think that you don't REALLY take seriously the idea that a fetus is a full person that is being murdered in an abortion. Instead, it's just a conditional pose.

 

[>>FrEnZy<<]

Ahh, the bickerings of a hedonist.

According to what your saying, there is no right and wrong. Or at least there is no such thing as something being righter or wronger than something else. Because what I may want or believe has just as equal value as what you may want or believe and what everbody else wants or believes right? Wrong. Because what I may want or believe may have better implications for humanity and may be based on more experience and knoweldge then what you may want or believe.

you aren’t doing anybody any harm, then it doesn’t matter how you do to derive pleasure.

This line is what holds your argument together. If I ain't hurting anyone, then who are you to come here and tell me whats right and wrong? who made you so great?

The reality is, You are hurting people just by existing, but your just ignorant of it. For example, your parents. Spent alot of time and money on you. They could have spent that money elsewhere on things that gave them pleasure, they could have negleted you so they could spend there time doing things more pleasureable than wiping shit off your ass and teahcing you to walk and talk. But because they are knowlegeable and experienced enough to know that not taking care of their son would lead to their son's and consequently their own despondancy, they took actions to do the things that would prevent that from happening. And it's not just the sacrifices that your parents have gone through for your benefit... It's everything. Everytime you go and buy nike shoes for your 'not-doing-anybody-harm-pleasure' People in indonesia are straving because there getting paid less than 6 cents a shoe to feed themselves and their families. Everytime you go and buy a goddamn bananna for your 'not-doing-anybody-harm-pleasure' people in south america are working all day for two cents to provide you those banannas. The world is full of crap and exploitation that your partly responsible for, your just not aware of it, which brings me back to my original point. If you're an ignorant fool playing half-life 2 whilst wearing your nike shoes and eating a bananna, thinking "Im not hurting anyone", Then your not as experienced, as knoweldgeable as others who may know how much it is hurting people. These people have more of a right to judge wether the way you derive pleasure is right or wrong.

Live for Truth, not pleasure.

 

[ríomhaire]

Ahhh, but you're not making the connection here. Eating meat is no longer a necessary action for your survival. There are now alternatives that do not require death while actually being healthier for you. When we, as a species, were still developing we did not have this luxury and I have no problem with the fact that our ancestors were forced to kill for food in order to survive... but are you telling me, now, that the life of an innocent animal is worth the luxury of food that tastes to your liking? How, then, is the life of an equally innocent animal not worth preventing someone from suffering through 9 whole months of pregnancy, giving birth, potentially losing their job, and various other consequences? I say, if you are for saving one of your God's creatures (I say "your" because, as an agnostic, I don't have a firm belief structure involving any deity at the moment) you should give all of them the same treatment. You know, what would Jesus do... or something like that?

I'm an agnostic too for your information and please don't tell me you're a vegetarian. I have 1 message for vegetarians, plants are alive too, if you don't want to eat something that was once alive eat a rock (unless it's a fossil)
The most a cow can benafit a society is as beef (I don't agree with killing them young, no veil for me) but a baby can be a huge number of things.

 

[Calanen]

It depends on how aggressive/brutal the rape was and the mental state of the mother after (and before) the rape.

I see - so its important to know whether its a 'good rape' or a 'bad rape'....

dude don't go into politics. You would have just been lynched on the evening news after saying that at a press conference......

 

[Nofuture]

I see - so its important to know whether its a 'good rape' or a 'bad rape'....

dude don't go into politics. You would have just been lynched on the evening news after saying that at a press conference......

I agree. It's even perverse...


Why don't you all just leave it exclusively for women (not e.g. pope, as he is a man!!!) to decide, what they want to do.
The point is, if there werent women, there woudn't be any babies. So only they are legitimate to decide.

 

[firemachine69]

I'm an agnostic too for your information and please don't tell me you're a vegetarian. I have 1 message for vegetarians, plants are alive too, if you don't want to eat something that was once alive eat a rock (unless it's a fossil)
The most a cow can benafit a society is as beef (I don't agree with killing them young, no veil for me) but a baby can be a huge number of things.

Full protein can only truly come from meat products. You just cannot consume a wide enough variety of meat substitutes to get a sufficient quantity of protein.

Omega 5 fatties are most prominent in fish, also.