Semi Truck / Big Rig

phantomdesign · May 15, 2004

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And if you're curious about what I can do, here's my last project.

IchI · May 15, 2004

it looking pritty good, keep going until u reach the end

eddie500 · May 15, 2004

wow looking good!

phantomdesign · May 15, 2004

Thanks for the replies & compliments.

Majestic XII · May 15, 2004

Maybe wanna try something new soon? You been making cars for ages

IchI · May 16, 2004

ye thats true. I am moving onto organisms now. I have changed quiet a bit.... I actually started on cars then moved because it got kinda easy... if that makes sense?

phantomdesign · May 16, 2004

There's a reason why 95% of my modeling is vehicles. Regardless, I model what I want to (or need to) model. You'll see a lot of other stuff coming from me once HL2 is out (a.k.a. MODing).

Majestic XII · May 16, 2004

But i would like to see a human/alien/ichi from you, takes alot more skill to make a human than a car, and companies know that (If you wanna apply for a job).

phantomdesign · May 16, 2004

How would you know which is harder? Can I see your best car model and your best character model?

I said there is a reason why I model vehicles. As I also said, my models always have a purpose, and with the exception of a hot chick, any character model would be a waste at the moment. Could we move on to something else now?

IchI · May 16, 2004

phantomdesign said:
How would you know which is harder? Can I see your best car model and your best character model?

I said there is a reason why I model vehicles. As I also said, my models always have a purpose, and with the exception of a hot chick, any character model would be a waste at the moment. Could we move on to something else now?

he only pointed out that characters are harder than cars, which they are. Well... it depends. Basiclly your modelling a car like it would be a normal human, because they already exist. Its impossible to say which is harder because people find things easier than others. But it is nearly a fact that development of characters is what people always end up doing nearly last. People always start of with cars to learn simple skills along simple geomtry faces. Characters expand on that and you begin to learn how to use your geometry well and add flow to your models. Cars are easy

well... not the way u do them, because thats a more advanced way. But its not about...

infact I will shutup. carry on everyone

good model.

phantomdesign · May 18, 2004

I understand your ramblings IchI

Well... it depends.

That sums it up pretty well. Probably on a very basic level it may be easier to make a decent car model than a decent human model, primarily because of our familiarity with the human form and therefore recognize small errors quickly, even if we can’t point them out.

Cars are easy well... not the way u do them

There's a whole extra level when it comes to modeling cars or characters. I have yet to see a Lamborghini Diablo or Murielago model that properly conveys the true beauty. Sure there are tons of "blueprint perfect" Lamborghini models, other elements are always missed. Same goes with characters. There’s a whole extra level that you have to reach to convey a sense of realism or beauty of a character. I’m sure whoever made the G-man model seen in the 2004 e3 video is probably a character specialist.

There’s this one guy who hangs out at cgtalk who makes the best, most realistic, hottest hot-chick models that I’ve seen, and he’s always under fire for not doing something else. People can criticize him all they want for not doing something else, but that does not take away from the quality of his work or his ability to create anything else. Why ask him to make a hot car or ask me to make a hot chick?

phantomdesign · May 18, 2004

Updates
http://www.gryphonauto.com/Extra/Semi/001-021.jpg
http://www.gryphonauto.com/Extra/Semi/001-022.jpg
http://www.gryphonauto.com/Extra/Semi/001-023.jpg

ankalar · May 18, 2004

This looks really good so far, great job!

phantomdesign said:
Sure there are tons of "blueprint perfect" Lamborghini models, other elements are always missed.

What other elements are there?

IchI · May 18, 2004

ankalar said:
What other elements are there?

hehehehe, good point. I can't think of any....

phantomdesign · May 18, 2004

Thanks anakalar!

What other elements are there?

hehehehe, good point. I can't think of any....

This is what separates ‘good’ and ‘great’ from ‘excellent.’ These are elements that you would only see in photographs (or in person). People tend to rely too heavily on the “blueprints” for their own good. Blueprints are great, I wish I had some available for my Nissan Altima project, Corvette C6 project, and this project. The problem is people tend to rely too heavily on blueprints for their own good and miss other important elements…usually the elements that would make the car look more beautiful in person than it would look in a line drawing.

Paintballer · May 18, 2004

all your models look great

I just started NURBS prolly about a month ago, I have made a bunch of stuff, but here are two pics of what I have made so far that have to do with automobiles...

Go-Kart WIP:
http://www.rvsoftshield.com/hl2/tubeframe.jpg

Tire Rim:
http://www.rvsoftshield.com/hl2/wheel1600.jpg

phantomdesign · May 18, 2004

Thanks Paintballer.

My first NURBS model that I made was the Enigma which you can view on my website (Www.GryphonAuto.com). I was about a month into NURBS when that one was completed.

It looks like you have a decent start on you Go-Kart

ankalar · May 18, 2004

phantomdesign said:
Thanks anakalar!
This is what separates ?good? and ?great? from ?excellent.? These are elements that you would only see in photographs (or in person). People tend to rely too heavily on the ?blueprints? for their own good. Blueprints are great, I wish I had some available for my Nissan Altima project, Corvette C6 project, and this project. The problem is people tend to rely too heavily on blueprints for their own good and miss other important elements?usually the elements that would make the car look more beautiful in person than it would look in a line drawing.

As I asked before, what are these elements?

OCybrManO · May 19, 2004

There are two main differences between modeling a human character and a car for a game that make human/organic modeling harder.

1) People are constantly looking at the same anatomical features over and over hundreds of times a day... every day of their lives. They can notice any minor anatomical mistakes (they might not be able to specify exactly what is wrong with the model, but they know it doesn't "feel" right) whether it be a misproportioned part or an incorrectly shaped part. Cars, on the other hand, have so many different varieties and inconsistencies among makes and models that the average gamer would not notice some major mistakes (well, something a specialist would call a major mistake) in a car model. Thus, it is much harder to get a bad human model past your customers than a bad car model (the hardcore car buffs might notice the mistakes and complain about them but they are a small portion of the gamers and no one else will care).

2) Unlike car models, human models need to do more than just have a low enough polycount and look realistic. They must be functional. They have to bend/stretch/flex appropriately (without clipping into other parts of the model or badly deforming). Human modelers have a whole extra set of requirements they have to fulfill (not to mention the entire animation process) that modelers of inorganic objects don't have to worry about.

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

As I said before I have no reason or interest in creating characters, so you won’t be seeing any from me until I have a use for them (a.k.a. my MODs). As for which is harder and more impressive, the truth is I DON'T CARE.

I'm not competing with any of you nor am I interested in dealing with annoyances. I guess I don't have much of a reason to post models here anyway. I'm done here.

EDIT: Lastly, some of you may consider trying to make high-level models before you comment on how easy they are.

ankalar · May 19, 2004

As I asked twice before, what are these elements you keep on talking about?

Shinobi · May 19, 2004

ok I'm actaully with phantom design on this one,,

it's totally dependant on the person modelling on what is harder,, I cn do a WAY better character model than a car model,, but that's just me

as for why he's modelling cars,, did you try cheking the website he posted? he does this as real work.. (Www.GryphonAuto.com)

I think you guys really took this thread the wrong way,, it was susposed to be a critique about a truck model

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

Ok, I'll give this another chance. If we could remain on the subject of the Semi truck, that would be great. Things like comments or critiques about the model, or questions about modeling vehicles in general.

Nearly all of the cars I do (don't count this one) are vehicle concept designs. Success so far has been less than I would prefer, but my most recent projects (the Corvette C6 body kits) are making quite an impact in the corvette community and things are looking very promising there. It looks like some professional racing teams (ALMS, etc) in Florida will be using the Raptor concept on their corvettes, but I need to close the deal (yes, they ok'ed me to release this info).

(I apologize for only vaguely answering your questions then forgetfully not being more specific when you asked again)

The extra elements are things like surface curvature, tangency, and transitions. Curvature would be best illustrated by looking at cars like the Ferrari 360, McLaren F1, Jaguar XJ220, etc. These cars are beautiful for multiple reasons, but what gives them a real edge is the way their surfaces curve smoothly and reflect the environment (among other things). Tangency would be ensuring the surfaces curvature lines up properly. For example, I've seen plenty of car models where the reflection takes off at a completely different direction between the door and the front fender. Transitions are basically the small surfaces between the larger surfaces. They could be panel divisions or simply a smooth merge between to larger curved surfaces (Corvette C6 has a lot of these). There are even more elements than I listed, but the real trick is using a significant amount of reference photos.

While it may not be very important in past games due to limited technology, with modern technology such as normal mapping, real-time reflections, and more, the difference between an great model and an exceptional model will be quite noticeable. The only reason I know most of this stuff is probably because I focus on concept design, primarily curvy vehicles. I can’t wait to port my vehicles into the HL2 engine, because there are a lot of elements in the design that you really have to see “in person.”

Hi Shinobi. Thanks for the reply

ankalar · May 19, 2004

All of those things are achieved when you have made a blueprint-perfect model. These are not extra elements, they come with an accurate model. I guess I see where you are coming from, but it's nothing that a blueprint perfect model can't achieve.

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

You could make a car match the blueprint perfectly and miss every single one of those elements entirely. I've seen it happen hundreds of times.

The Dark Elf · May 19, 2004

Pendragon said:
I completely fail to understand how this is possible (much less how you could have seen it 'hundreds' of times). If a model follows a blueprint to the letter (the blueprint being all the engineers who make the car have to go on, how can it miss things that are part of the structure of the car?

well said

I think phantomdesign is getting confused with real blueprints and drawn plans made available on the net.

ankalar · May 19, 2004

Pendragon said:
I completely fail to understand how this is possible (much less how you could have seen it 'hundreds' of times). If a model follows a blueprint to the letter (the blueprint being all the engineers who make the car have to go on) how can it miss things that are part of the structure of the car?

thirded'd!

Razor · May 19, 2004

He might mean something more along the lines of character and personality, if you look at Ruby in Ati's new tech demo, she looks like a barbie doll fighting ninjas, if you compare her to Alyx, Alyx is not as advanced, interms of polygons, but looks a lot more realistic interms of character and personality, even though they are both just textures, shaders and polygons.

Farrowlesparrow · May 19, 2004

However, those are organic characters you are describing. Not vehicles which come off the production line identical.

The Dark Elf · May 19, 2004

Razor said:
He might mean something more along the lines of character and personality, if you look at Ruby in Ati's new tech demo, she looks like a barbie doll fighting ninjas, if you compare her to Alyx, Alyx is not as advanced, interms of polygons, but looks a lot more realistic interms of character and personality, even though they are both just textures, shaders and polygons.

A car is an object. a human is an object. Take away a human's character and personality and thats all it is, a carcass. a shell, just like a car. To get emotion and feeling across from an inanimate object such as a car or a still silent human body involves lighting and framing. Nothing to do with how its built. You could get a simple sphere, clone it and render one version with a single light and one with a few lights and better framing and it'll look more "alive" than the basic one. This applies to all things, living or not.

A clever animatior can put bones into a car body, and give it more emotion and personality than the best actor on screen today. He/she could do the same to a simple can of coke. The actual creation of the object is the same. It's what you do afterwards

What I don't understand is phantom has continually expressed pride in making his models accurate to the milimeter or something. But if he's not following the blueprints accurately, which is what it sounds like. Then his models aren't accurate atall.

I would never drive a car designed by someone who "felt it could do with a little something here" rather than following the planned out and tested many times design laid out in the blueprint. I'd be very worried that the artist, with no real knowledge on how his/her changes would react to realworld events.

OCybrManO · May 19, 2004

He might mean something more along the lines of character and personality, if you look at Ruby in Ati's new tech demo, she looks like a barbie doll fighting ninjas, if you compare her to Alyx, Alyx is not as advanced, interms of polygons, but looks a lot more realistic interms of character and personality, even though they are both just textures, shaders and polygons.

We're talking about cars, not people. Also, we're not talking about skins. We're not talking about shaders. We are talking about the actual geometry.

If one follows the blueprints of a car exactly there will be no differences other than the varying modeling (polygon structure/distribution, flow lines, etc) and rendering styles. What style looks best all comes down to preference on inanimate objects. For example, phantomdesign likes his cars to look ultrashiny in all of his renders. A lot of people don't like shiny renders because they want to see the object itself and not merely a reflection of the environment, as that tends to take attention away from the model.

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

http://www.suurland.com <--I'm talking about these, which everyone refers to as blueprints. Whether or not technically correct, it is common usage of the English language. Now days, vehicle engineers use 3D models, and if you had access to the 3D model, you wouldn't need to make it again, would you?

Hundreds is an exaggeration, but there are sites that host pictures of vehicle 3D models.

What I don't understand is phantom has continually expressed pride in making his models accurate to the milimeter or something.

I have never claimed that.

To get emotion and feeling across from an inanimate object such as a car or a still silent human body involves lighting and framing. Nothing to do with how its built.

You would make a really crappy car designer.

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

I already tried to answer the question. Learn to make a car properly and you'll understand or read books on vehicle design. I don't know how to explain it any better. I have failed to explain it, and that is entirely acceptable to me.

This time I AM DONE. This 3D modeling part of HL2.net sucks and you all can have it to yourselves.

ankalar · May 19, 2004

phantomdesign said:
You would make a really crappy car designer.

It seems as though you already are.

(Sorry, I couldn't pass up the chance)

phantomdesign · May 19, 2004

Thanks for proving my point.

With a comment like that, we might as well be Halflife radio.

Pi Mu Rho · May 19, 2004

This 3D modeling part of HL2.net sucks and you all can have it to yourselves.

Yeah well, technically, it's for HL2 modelling. Obviously, with the lack of an actual game, certain aspects of that are difficult. However, most people tend to display stuff they're making for upcoming HL2 mods, or mods for other games. You just seem to use it as somewhere to showcase your very shiny car models that have nothing whatsoever to do with games.

ankalar · May 19, 2004

I've always wanted to know...do you actually get contracted for this stuff, phantomdesign? You like to make it seem as though you do.

The Dark Elf · May 19, 2004

phantomdesign said:
You would make a really crappy car designer.

Hey did you just misquote me on purpose or actually fail to read the entire post I made. Either way your response is funny, coming from you.

phan·tom also fan·tom
n.

Something apparently seen, heard, or sensed, but having no physical reality; a ghost or an apparition.

Something elusive or delusive.

An image that appears only in the mind; an illusion.

IchI · May 19, 2004

phantomdesign said:
Thanks for proving my point.

With a comment like that, we might as well be Halflife radio.

urrrr..... the guys at hl radio are a good laugh. I did an interview with them for like 3 hours and wasn't bored in the slightest.

No offense Phantomdesigner, but u come across as been very protective over your work and kinda to try and say it without offending you, u seem to dislike discussion when you know your wrong. Its kinda the same with your model as well.

Soz

:imu:

I kinda do the same, I dislike get kinda angry when someone says my work is crap, but everyone knows I'm an ass hole anyway so its all good

The Dark Elf · May 19, 2004

IchI said:
but everyone knows I'm an ass hole anyway so its all good

Naaa, though when I first joined I remember you were being banned again and again for various reasons and p*ssing everyone off lol

Though I gotta say I think you've changed a hell of a lot since then, I look forward to seeing your new model pics, your not afraid to keep trying and getting better. And your willingness to do video tutorials and help out and I like your honesty too when it comes to mods. But then like me, your not a yes man for the sake of it

Phantom on the other hand... meh there's a reason why some people never get work and its not always their abilities.

Semi Truck / Big Rig

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