The Dark Knight

[Laivasse]

I took it as him saying "once Dent admitted to being Batman him jumping after Rachel fitted perfectly" rather than "Dent jumping after Rachel is the reason I thought he was Batman".

I really don't think they would have made it explicit. It isn't a Spoon-Feeding kind of film.

I've had a bit of a think about the way you're interpreting that line.

You're saying that the Joker still thought Batman was Dent at the point that Dent claimed he was Batman?

It's been a while since I've seen the film so my sense of the chronology is a bit rusty, but didn't the Joker capture Dent and implement the bomb plan just after Dent made that announcement??

At what point between Dent claiming he's Batman and the Joker getting caught by police does the Joker have time to suspect Bruce, investigate him and decide he's actually the real Batman? If, as you accept, that the Joker thought Batman was Dent up to around the point that Dent made the announcement, where does his suspicion of Bruce Wayne suddenly come from?

It's possible that the Joker knew that Dent wasn't Batman even before Dent claimed he was, which might account for how he had a back-up plan after the failed ambush. In that case, however, it must be accepted that the 'I thought you were Dent' line came solely from seeing Batman rescue Rachel.

 

[Eejit]

At what point between Dent claiming he's Batman and the Joker getting caught by police does the Joker have time to suspect Bruce, investigate him and decide he's actually the real Batman? If, as you accept, that the Joker thought Batman was Dent up to around the point that Dent made the announcement, where does his suspicion of Bruce Wayne suddenly come from?

He probably had someone watching Rachel when she kissed Bruce just before the press conference.

 

[Rizzo]

I think thats pretty farfetched. not something that was rather obvious.
We are supposed to figure out that Joker knew bruce is batman, becouse he probably had someone watching Rachel kiss Bruce, and therefor making the connection, when Batman just as well could be some creepy shy stalker guy, who's in love with racheal.

 

[Laivasse]

He probably had someone watching Rachel when she kissed Bruce just before the press conference.

That's still a stretch. If you're saying that the Joker's saying "once Dent admitted to being Batman, him jumping after Rachel fitted perfectly", then he can't have suspected Bruce before the conference.

If he did suspect Bruce before the conference, then he originally must have suspected Dent just because of Batman's reaction to Rachel getting dropped. However if this is true, then the bomb plot was also likely conceived just because of what the Joker perceived as Batman's interest in Rachel, not because of any concrete dirt on Wayne.

You can speculate that the Joker does know about Bruce Wayne, because the Joker's a smart guy, or you might think it's an easy connection to make, etc etc. but that's all it's really based on and it's not borne out by any references in the film. What I'm saying is that either interpretation works, but it's not like you are definitively supposed to receive the impression that the Joker knows who Batman is (only that he might). But if he does know why does he stop using that knowledge after Rachel dies? There are other people close to Wayne that could be used against him, other ways Wayne could be inconvenienced...

 

[Eejit]

Just to repeat:

If the Joker didn't know then the entire Dent-Dawes-Kaboom dilemma was based on an absolute guess by the him that Batman cares anywhere near as much for the DA's assistant as for the DA himself.

The plan was too carefully crafted to be based on anything other than certain knowledge that Batman was in love with Dawes and would be forced to choose between Bruce's love and Batman's duty.


Just because something isn't obvious doesn't make it farfetched...

 

[Rizzo]

You thought it was obvious, and that all your friends got it. I still think it is, so I don't belive Joker knew he was Batman, for all the reason allready mentioned. As you belive he knew, for the reasons you posted.

 

[Eejit]

Thanks Capt. Obvious.

 

[Rizzo]

Yeah... I just meant that i wasn't going to post the same shit everyone already said to make my point.
Eejit.

 

[ríomhaire]

Just to repeat:

If the Joker didn't know then the entire Dent-Dawes-Kaboom dilemma was based on an absolute guess by the him that Batman cares anywhere near as much for the DA's assistant as for the DA himself.

The plan was too carefully crafted to be based on anything other than certain knowledge that Batman was in love with Dawes and would be forced to choose between Bruce's love and Batman's duty.


Just because something isn't obvious doesn't make it farfetched...

The Joker put a gun in his own mouth with a greater than 50/50 chance of him getting his head blown off (There was always the chance that Dent would ignore the coin toss and kill him anyway). He killed the mayor and a high-up judge. I really don't think he would have cared if it was Dent that was blown up instead. It was an experiment to see who Batman would try and save. He didn't know who he would, but by observing what he did he then learned more about Batman.

 

[Eejit]

The Joker put a gun in his own mouth with a greater than 50/50 chance of him getting his head blown off (There was always the chance that Dent would ignore the coin toss and kill him anyway). He killed the mayor and a high-up judge. I really don't think he would have cared if it was Dent that was blown up instead. It was an experiment to see who Batman would try and save. He didn't know who he would, but by observing what he did he then learned more about Batman.

My point is that the Joker had to -KNOW- that it would be a difficult choice. If Rachel was nothing to Batman other than another innocent bystander then the choice would be completely pre-determined. No fun.

 

[Laivasse]

But from his lines in the interrogation room we learn that the Joker took Batman's dive out the window to mean that Dawes was more than just another innocent bystander.

 

[Eejit]

Thanks for not reading my previous posts.

 

[Laivasse]

It's not our fault your point is full of holes. You said you interpreted those lines differently - I showed you how your intepretation was faulty, you reverted to repeating the same stuff over again.

 

[Yorick]

The Joker put a gun in his own mouth with a greater than 50/50 chance of him getting his head blown off (There was always the chance that Dent would ignore the coin toss and kill him anyway).

I wouldn't say that the Joker would take that kind of a chance (in regard to Dent shooting him anyway), but even if Dent had killed him, the Joker still would have won.

 

[Eejit]

It's not our fault your point is full of holes. You said you interpreted those lines differently - I showed you how your intepretation was faulty, you reverted to repeating the same stuff over again.

Still not reading.

The Joker wouldn't have set his plan up on a "guess" like you are saying, he wouldn't have done it the way he did unless he KNEW that Batman cared significantly for Dawes - and he did.

 

[Laivasse]

The Joker wouldn't have set his plan up on a "guess" like you are saying, he wouldn't have done it the way he did unless he KNEW that Batman cared significantly for Dawes - and he did.

I know, you've said this. But to say that the window dive was not enough to show the Joker that Batman 'cared significantly' is speculation.

It's not unreasonable speculation. But nor is it unreasonable to say that Batman's reaction at the party was all the joker had to go on, since that is what the script seems to indicate.

 

[Eejit]

I know, you've said this. But to say that the window dive was not enough to show the Joker that Batman 'cared significantly' is speculation.

Are you serious?
That's completely backwards.

Batman saves people's lives, risking his own, all the time. Jumping to save someone who's falling is not that unusual for him...

 

[Laivasse]

So we're back to: how do you explain the 'at first I thought you were Dent' line?

Perhaps we're meant to have interpreted that the Joker noticed something unusual in Batman's desperation to save her. Who cares - the Joker thought it was significant, that is what we appear to have been told.

 

[Eejit]

Do I really have to? Is your brain that atrophied you can't figure out some explanations yourself?

Fine, here's a few:
A) He didn't find out about Bruce sheltering and making out with Dawes until a little after the press conference, it happened shortly beforehand and a communication delay with whoever he had watching her is understandable.
B) He may have thought Dent was Batman from the start. It would seem to fit, remember the Russian ballet dancer suggested it too.
C) The Joker never thought he Dent was Batman - it's a lie to get under Batman's skin and remind him of the last time he barely saved Rachel from Joker at a moment when she is in peril and he can do nothing to help her without J's co-operation.


You think the Joker thought that Dent was Batman right up until.... when exactly?

 

[Yorick]

Hey idiots, your bus is leaving. Go measure your penises elsewhere.

 

[Eejit]

Oh shit, looks like we're idiots for discussing the plot of a film and disagreeing. Durdurdur.

 

[Asknoone]

Eejit, it's a movie. Calm down.

 

[Eejit]

I'm not getting worked up about the movie, just about people misreading or misconstruing my posts. Repeatedly.

Apart from that I'm completely calm. I'll convince you all of the truth, it just might take longer than it's taken anyone else...

 

[MJ12]

Penguin thing is definitely just a rumor-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHBofbZTiE8&feature=dir

 

[Yorick]

Oh shit, looks like we're idiots for discussing the plot of a film and disagreeing. Durdurdur.

No, you're idiots because you're only bothering to read the parts of each other's posts that can be picked apart and used either to discredit them or to work towards your own point of view.

You should end all of your posts with "Durdurdur", it would help immensely.

 

[Laivasse]

Screw yourself, Eejit@atrophy. We're trying to show you that your interpretation of the film - which you seem to think is the ONLY interpretation and you can't believe this forum hasn't 'got it' - is not as clear cut as you seem to think, and you're getting all pissy like I'm stepping on your toys.

It makes me laugh that you say I'm not reading your posts, considering the way you're retreading ground that's been covered.
Read this and understand it forever:
1) I AM SAYING IT IS POSSIBLE THAT JOKER KNOWS THAT BRUCE WAYNE=BATMAN.
2) I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO COME UP WITH EXPLANATIONS OF HOW TO FIT THAT LINE - 'at first I thought you were Dent, the way you threw yourself after her' - INTO THAT INTERPRETATION. SEE ALSO: 1)
3) I AM ASKING YOU WHY THAT LINE EXISTS AT ALL IF YOUR VERSION IS THE ONLY VALID ONE AND THE WINDOW JUMP WAS IRRELEVANT.

For the record, I think that the Joker suspected that Dent was Batman - and that there was a Batman/Rachel connection - since the party. He's a smart guy so he doesn't bank all of his money on that for the ambush, and sure enough when the real Batman shows up he has a back-up plan. Either that or his enterprising moles in the police force use their own initiative and kidnap Dent under their own steam once the fuss is over.

OR I think that the Joker knows that Wayne=Batman before the press conference, through some completely unmentioned surveillance. This is why he has a back-up plan. However he seems to forget that he has this knowledge for the remainder of the film and doesn't use it in any other way, eg. going after Caine, Freeman, bringing the fight to one of Wayne's many HQ's, even referencing it, whatever.

 

[bam23]

We really have to go to insults?

I'm trying to have a good read here.

 

[Laivasse]

I can only let sarcastic BS and misplaced whinging pass so many times.

 

[Absinthe]

So let's summarize.

We can be reasonably certain that the Joker knew Batman had feelings for Rachel beyond any other ordinary citizen.
We can not be as certain that he knew Batman was Bruce Wayne off of that information alone, barring any other happenings not referenced in the script.

 

[Eejit]

It makes me laugh that you say I'm not reading your posts, considering the way you're retreading ground that's been covered.
Read this and understand it forever:
1) I AM SAYING IT IS POSSIBLE THAT JOKER KNOWS THAT BRUCE WAYNE=BATMAN.
2) I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO COME UP WITH EXPLANATIONS OF HOW TO FIT THAT LINE - 'at first I thought you were Dent, the way you threw yourself after her' - INTO THAT INTERPRETATION. SEE ALSO: 1)
3) I AM ASKING YOU WHY THAT LINE EXISTS AT ALL IF YOUR VERSION IS THE ONLY VALID ONE AND THE WINDOW JUMP WAS IRRELEVANT.

For the record, I think that the Joker suspected that Dent was Batman - and that there was a Batman/Rachel connection - since the party. He's a smart guy so he doesn't bank all of his money on that for the ambush, and sure enough when the real Batman shows up he has a back-up plan. Either that or his enterprising moles in the police force use their own initiative and kidnap Dent under their own steam once the fuss is over.

A backup plan?
The set up with Dent and Rachel is his master plan. It's how he set up his "Ace in the Hole", turning Dent intoa villain. To paraphrase the clown; you don't really believe he'd leave the battle for Gotham's soul to the result of a car chase?
It was certainlynot merely a backup. Everything that happened from the time Dent began to move until Batman took the blame for Dent's crimes was planned by the Joker.

OR I think that the Joker knows that Wayne=Batman before the press conference, through some completely unmentioned surveillance. This is why he has a back-up plan. However he seems to forget that he has this knowledge for the remainder of the film and doesn't use it in any other way, eg. going after Caine, Freeman, bringing the fight to one of Wayne's many HQ's, even referencing it, whatever.

Why would he go after Wayne? Batman "completes" him. Dent was his target, the White Knight, not the Dark. He says this.
I say again, the kidnapping etc. with him in Jail was no kind of backup plan, it was THE plan all along. It succeeded almost completely - only barring the boats not playing along, and Batman saving Dent's reputation by ruining his own.


So you see, the Joker must have KNOWN that Dent was not Batman before the car chase even began. He also knew that Rachel was still someone that Batman cared for enough to abandon Dent.
Let me ask you: when did he figure out Dent wasn't Batman, and why?
And how is he certain that Batman would choose Rachel over Dent (and he must have been because the entire master plan hinged on it)?

 

[ríomhaire]

Still not reading.

The Joker wouldn't have set his plan up on a "guess" like you are saying, he wouldn't have done it the way he did unless he KNEW that Batman cared significantly for Dawes - and he did.

TBH the Joker seems like the only person who would have set up his plan on a guess.

 

[Eejit]

I disagree. His plans were far too complex and perfectly laid. It's about as likely as him leaving the result of the battle for Gotham's soul on a fist fight.
I think perhaps he is someone you do not fully understand Master Rimfire.

 

[Laivasse]

*snip*
I say again, the kidnapping etc. with him in Jail was no kind of backup plan, it was THE plan all along. It succeeded almost completely - only barring the boats not playing along, and Batman saving Dent's reputation by ruining his own.


So you see, the Joker must have KNOWN that Dent was not Batman before the car chase even began. He also knew that Rachel was still someone that Batman cared for enough to abandon Dent.
Let me ask you: when did he figure out Dent wasn't Batman, and why?
And how is he certain that Batman would choose Rachel over Dent (and he must have been because the entire master plan hinged on it)?

This is all speculation about things outside the realm of the script, so this'll be the last time I indulge in this, esp. seeing as how you must have tacitly accepted by now that yours is only one viable interpretation (even if it isn't well backed up by in-movie references).

Anyway.
Another way to see things could be:
He thinks Dent is Batman but doesn't risk everything on that outcome, and so plans for multiple eventualities. This is not recklessness, it is thoroughness. Regardless, if Dent is his main target - as you stress - he doesn't need to know who Batman is!

Best case:
Batman is Dent, the ambush succeeds, and so Batman/Dent is eliminated.

Worst case:
Batman foils the ambush of Dent, Joker captured, Dent kidnapped by Joker's cronies anyway. From here, if what you say about Dent being the main target holds true, it doesn't even matter that much if Batman has a connection to Rachel...! The Joker wins either way; in the less likely case that Batman does pick Dawes then Dent would be eliminated and Batman gets a healthy dose of guilt, otherwise Batman picks Dent and Dawes gets sacrificed - creating enmity between Batman & Dent at the least and emotionally destroying Dent (which is what happened) at best.

Some of what you're saying is self-contradictory, ie. you say everything up until the boats was the Joker's plan, but then that the Joker was 'certain that Batman would choose Rachel over Dent [because] the entire master plan hinged on it.' If you're consistent, and right in saying that Dent is the priority, then you'll realise that the bomb dilemma didn't even have to be a tough choice for Batman since Dent suffers massive damage either way - plus both outcomes are fun in terms of collateral guilt, etc. So under this reasoning, the entire premise for your point - that the Joker knew who Batman was because he HAD to KNOW that he was boning Rachel - is undermined.

You ask when I think Joker figured out Batman's identity, but it just doesn't matter. I think he may have sussed - or suspected, or been planning around the fact - that Dent wasn't Batman before the conference. This does not need to mean the Joker knew that Bruce=Batman. As it happens I think the Joker believed Rachel to be important to Batman regardless of whether Batman was Dent or not, and regardless of whether or not you think the basis for that assumption was ridiculous - the script backs me up on this.

Anyway I'm done with this. I was never particularly interested in debating the merits of various theories (which is what is now happening), only in establishing that the 'Joker knows not' theory is a sound one which stands up to scrutiny and can be backed up by in-film references if needed - the truth of which should be blatantly obvious by now.

 

[Eejit]

This is all speculation about things outside the realm of the script, so this'll be the last time I indulge in this, esp. seeing as how you must have tacitly accepted by now that yours is only one viable interpretation (even if it isn't well backed up by in-movie references).

It's things that aren't explicitly stated in the script, that hardly means it's pure fantasy. It would be bad writing if the Joker gave a big James Bond villianesque speech at the end explaining it all.

Anyway.
Another way to see things could be:
He thinks Dent is Batman but doesn't risk everything on that outcome, and so plans for multiple eventualities. This is not recklessness, it is thoroughness.

Possible, but the sheer depth of the plan makes it unlikely he had equivalent ready to deal with every other alternative.

Regardless, if Dent is his main target - as you stress - he doesn't need to know who Batman is!

He needs to know enough to be sure he'll choose Rachel. He clearly wants to corrupt Dent, not kill him.

Best case:
Batman is Dent, the ambush succeeds, and so Batman/Dent is eliminated.

The Joker doesn't want to eliminate Batman. Yes, he says this explicitly in the script.

Worst case:
Batman foils the ambush of Dent, Joker captured, Dent kidnapped by Joker's cronies anyway. From here, if what you say about Dent being the main target holds true, it doesn't even matter that much if Batman has a connection to Rachel...! The Joker wins either way; in the less likely case that Batman does pick Dawes then Dent would be eliminated and Batman gets a healthy dose of guilt, otherwise Batman picks Dent and Dawes gets sacrificed - creating enmity between Batman & Dent at the least and emotionally destroying Dent (which is what happened) at best.

Joker captured is best case. Remember, he wants Lao from the jail too.
He doesn't want to eliminate Dent! The Joker's whole plan is to pull him down, and make Dent like himself.

Some of what you're saying is self-contradictory, ie. you say everything up until the boats was the Joker's plan, but then that the Joker was 'certain that Batman would choose Rachel over Dent [because] the entire master plan hinged on it.' If you're consistent, and right in saying that Dent is the priority, then you'll realise that the bomb dilemma didn't even need to be a tough choice for Batman since Dent suffers massive damage either way - plus both outcomes are fun in terms of collateral guilt, etc. So under this reasoning, the entire premise for your point - that the Joker knew who Batman was because he HAD to KNOW that he was boning Rachel - is undermined.

See above, he wanted Dent corrupted not killed. The bomb outcome had to be as it was.

You ask when I think Joker figured out Batman's identity, but it just doesn't matter. I think he may have sussed - or suspected, or been planning around the fact - that Dent wasn't Batman before the conference. This does not need to mean the Joker knew that Bruce=Batman. As it happens I think the Joker believed Rachel to be important to Batman regardless of whether Batman was Dent or not, and regardless of whether or not you think the basis for that assumption was ridiculous - the script backs me up on this.

The other part of my question: if he figured out Dent wasn't Batman how did he do so?

Anyway I'm don with this. I was never particularly interested in debating the merits of various theories (which is what is now happening), only in establishing that the 'Joker knows not' theory is a sound one which stands up to scrutiny and can be backed up by in-film references if needed - the truth of which should be blatantly obvious by now.

The fact is you've completely failed to grasp several important aspects of the plot. Mainly the Joker wanting to corrupt Dent or make Batman kill - not wanting to murder them. If you don't understand this then you don't understand the film.

 

[Laivasse]

Tripe. You don't think the Joker would have killed Batman at the end of the film? He was giving his execution speech! What he didn't want was for anyone to end the game but him.

You don't think firing a bazooka at a vehicle with Dent inside isn't trying to kill him? Sure, he wanted to corrupt him but only once the opportunity became available.

Who cares how he figured out how Dent wasn't Batman? Maybe he saw discrepancies in their behaviour. That would have about as much basis in the film as surveillance of Bruce.

You've ignored: If 'the bomb outcome had to be as it was' then the Joker didn't NEED there to be a connection between Batman and Rachel...! Quite the opposite, potentially. Considering this was a basic premise of your argument a few posts ago, it's peculiar how you've gone against it so hard. 'The Joker had to know Batman would save Rachel'/'had to know he would save Harvey...' which is it???

The fact is you're trying to set yourself up as some kind of fanboy ubermensch who is the only person capable of grasping all of the film's subtle nuances, so you react with hostility to anything that suggests everyone else appreciated it as deeply as you did, and I've got no more time for it, soz....

 

[Rizzo]

The other part of my question: if he figured out Dent wasn't Batman how did he do so?

Maybe when Dent was in the van, and batman was smashing his truck.

Im just gonna add and say that Jokers plan works without him knowing about Batmans identity.
I also think that the Joker whouldn't have been too bothered if Dent had died in the explosion. He wanted to Corropt everyone, not just Dent.
I think the Boat scene showed that.

 

[Eejit]

Tripe. You don't think the Joker would have killed Batman at the end of the film? He was giving his execution speech! What he didn't want was for anyone to end the game but him.

No, he wanted one of two things: Dent to go evil, and Batman to take a life. He was willing to die to acheive either of them.

You don't think firing a bazooka at a heavily armored [b/]vehicle with Dent inside isn't trying to kill him?

Pretty much.

Who cares how he figured out how Dent wasn't Batman? Maybe he saw discrepancies in their behaviour. That would have about as much basis in the film as surveillance of Bruce.

Because it matters to the story?

You've ignored: If 'the bomb outcome had to be as it was' then the Joker didn't NEED there to be a connection between Batman and Rachel...! Quite the opposite, potentially. Considering this was a basic premise of your argument a few posts ago, it's peculiar how you've gone against it so hard. 'The Joker had to know Batman would save Rachel'/'had to know he would save Harvey...' which is it???

He knew Batman would try to save Rachel, but the Joker set it up so he would actually save Harvey... that's why he lied about where the two were.

The fact is you're trying to set yourself up as some kind of fanboy ubermensch who is the only person capable of grasping all of the film's subtle nuances, so you react with hostility to anything that suggests everyone else appreciated it as deeply as you did, and I've got no more time for it, soz....

Not really, I only realised how much of the film you actually missed after you posted. I'm actually surprised, most people I know who watched it grasped far more of the plot than you seem to have.

Maybe when Dent was in the van, and batman was smashing his truck.

And yet he already had a plan set up to kidnap Dent and force Batman to choose between Dent and Dawes... Or is that just really really really really quick thinking?
Also, the Joker didn't seem particularly surprised to see Batman turn up, don't you think?

Im just gonna add and say that Jokers plan works without him knowing about Batmans identity.
I also think that the Joker whouldn't have been too bothered if Dent had died in the explosion. He wanted to Corropt everyone, not just Dent.
I think the Boat scene showed that.

He wanted to corrupt people through Dent. He says so at the end.


Honestly, pay attention :upstare:

 

[Laivasse]

He knew Batman would try to save Rachel, but the Joker set it up so he would actually save Harvey... that's why he lied about where the two were.

OK, that clears up my genuine confusion over why you seemed to be going against what you said before - in my first post about this whole thing I said it's been a long time since I've seen the film. But that only takes us back to where we were a few posts ago.

Nothing has changed. It still doesn't require that the Joker knows Batman=Bruce, the Joker still claims the window dive to signify a Batman/Rachel connection, and there is still payoff for the Joker in either outcome to the bomb plot.

most people I know who watched it grasped far more of the plot than you seem to have.

You mean most people you know other than everyone who has posted here...? To whom you seem incapable of demonstrating the superiority of your interpretation? Despite how elementary it is? Later.

 

[Eejit]

OK, that clears up my genuine confusion over why you seemed to be going against what you said before - in my first post about this whole thing I said it's been a long time since I've seen the film. But that only takes us back to where we were a few posts ago.

Yep, and I answered you a few posts ago ^^

Nothing has changed. It still doesn't require that the Joker knows Batman=Bruce, the Joker still claims the window dive to signify a Batman/Rachel connection, and there is still payoff for the Joker in either outcome to the bomb plot.

I already said, there's only a payoff from one outcome, Batman trying to save Dawes but saving Dent.
The Joker. Didn't. Want. Dent. Dead.
He wanted Rachel dead, and for Batman to take part of the blame from Dent.

You mean most people you know other than everyone who has posted here...?

Pretty much. ^^
Some didn't realise that the Joker knew Batman's identity but they all knew that the Joker wanted Dent and Batman alive.

 

[lefty]

guys, guys, it's just a movie.