The entire game is playable - Gabe

[WillH]

not that I agree with keeson, although I see where he is going with this, however you obviously didnt read his arguement then... it would have been invalid if the interview was recent. :/

lol oh yeah, whoops my bad, I misread his post, I thought he was saying that because of that article the game wasn't nearly finished. Ok well I take it back. Although he did say FULLY playable which does imply that the levels are at least nearly done. Although we should know better than to take implications from valve.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

man E3 seems so far away hehe, mt hypometer is gaining power.

 

[Keeson]

Wait, Umm... I believe that says it all. It was from 2003, which makes your whole arguement pointless. Thank you.

Well I don't really get any respect here... as usual...

Anyway to sum up:

June 13th 2003 - Birdwell :farmer: - Game is half playable
April 25th 2004 - Newell - Game is fully playable

So it took them 10 months work to get the other half playable.



Now what I want to know is how long to detail/texture/test all of these playable levels???

:dork: Anyone care to give some analysis of how many more months/years it should take??? We could add the number of months to today's date and come up with a release date!!!!

...and no don't say it will take 2 months and the game will come out in June cause that's crazy! :cheese:

 

[Naft]

Now let me pull out a quote by Valve's Ken Birdwell:


SE: So how far done is all of Half-Life 2?

Ken - We've got all the game laid out. We've got about half of it in gameplay testing. Half-Life 2 is designed along a pipeline scheme: we build the maps, we lay out the geometry, the physics elements which are important to the gameplay and then we go thru play testing until we have a whole area of the game that's fun, that runs, that does what we want, plays how we want it. Then it will go on to the finish art team that will lay down all the textures, put the lights in, and put the detailed props in. It's a very time consuming process. To make a game this rich, and a world this natural, we want to make sure first that it's fun and then go through and make it beautiful.

This quote shows Valve's "pipeline" process for developing levels. Keep in mind that there is a critical path that Valve must adhere to in order not to slip behind schedule. The art guys are held up unable to do their jobs until a level is playable with complete A.I. as well as being fun.

Ken says: "We've got all the game laid out"
Ok, does he mean they have a script by Mark Laidlaw and a bunch of concept art and a series of uncomplete test levels???

And when he says they have "half of it in gameplay testing"
I guess he means very undetailed levels used to test gameplay only and definitely not the more polished levels seen at E3 2003.

Now once you've got a levels gameplay they way you like it, how long to detail it???

The key point Ken makes is: "It's a very time consuming process"
Think about this... once you detail it you will probably test it for performance on different hardware. What if it runs like crap on low end hardware. You will have to revise it!!! Then test it again!!! Rework the brushwork - maybe that affects the gameplay!? Uh oh!! This could take awhile to get everything just right.... and yet he just admitted that on June 13th, 2003, they only had half of the game in a very basic level of completion for a game set to ship on September 30th - a mere 3 months away!!!

Despite what Gabe said about "The entire game is playable" it doesn't mean much because that is only the first step in a "very time consuming process" as outlined by Ken Birdwell.

There is an absolute ton of detailing, scripted elements, texturing, testing, retesting, testing for hardware platform scalability, etc. that has to be done. If you ever made HL1 maps as I have, you can appreciate how time consuming map development can be.

Who knows how long it might take to finish up...

So please take what Gabe says with a grain of salt!!!

You missed the entire point of Birdwell's statement. They aren't working on the whole game at one time!

let me requote your quote:

. . . we build the maps, we lay out the geometry, the physics elements which are important to the gameplay and then we go thru play testing until we have a whole area of the game that's fun, that runs, that does what we want, plays how we want it.

So last year, when gabe supposedly said "We are starting to playtest now" or whatever(Ive never actually seen where he said it), they were quite possibly starting to playtest only an

area

of the game, not necessarily the whole thing. (Dont get me wrong here, im not saying they werent close to finishing the game, it could have been the first area, or the second to last(Most likely one of the later areas). It quite possibly could have been the LAST area. Now remember this, because at the end i am going to make a statement summing this all up that has a extremely high probability of being what actually happened to the game.

You are correct about one thing, the amount of time it would take if you had to redo an entire area. But the point you make with that statement is wrong. if they made the whole game at one time, they would be screwed as you said. BUT THEY ARENT. they are making it one area at a time, and im sure they have had to redo a few areas throughout the process. Remember this also(You quick ones out there might see where im going with this, but hang on).

A note about hackers. Hackers, by nature, are not the most trustworthy of creatures. Their entire hacking actions are centered on illegitimacy, dishonesty, and inner anger. Therefore it would be foolish to take the words of an angry hacker as the ultimate truth in ANY situation, least of all one as important as this . Chances are they didnt even have the whole game on a running computer. all their work that they no longer needed for the area they were on was probably moved to somewhere where it wouldn't get in the way. Maybe the anonymous hacker just wasn't pro enough to get the whole thing, its not like he/she would go around bragging "I was only able to get 1/5 of HL2, I r teh U17iM4T3 H4xX0rz", he/she would blame his/her failure on someone else. Hackers are angry people.

Now let me focus on the entire development process. Complaints have been made about how they have been developing for over half a decade, and that they shouldnt have to delay ANOTHER year. Remember this: they havent just made HL2, they have made Source. The Source engine itselft will make them easily more money than HL2 and its mods/expansions, I guarantee it. They will never ever have to make an entire new engine(Until games have reached a virtual reality stage, Source's physics and complete real-world simulation will be able to recreate anything that has even a remote possibility(like anti-matter, dark matter, etc, not like instantaneous teleportation or impossible things) of existing in this world or any other), anything they dont have now could be added. this means that they can base every single other game they make off the Source engine, with little to no added work necessary, and will make money by licensing Source to other developers, and im quite sure an engine like Source could potentially have many non-gaming uses. (They really should get a patent on the concept/technology behind Source, if they havent yet.(although im not sure if that is entirely possible, im not a patent guru)).

I would say the people at VALVe spent about 3 months drinking champagne and smoking stogies, 1 month conceptualizing a new engine, 4 months building it, 1 month realizing that it wasn't gonna cut it, 2-3 months conceptualizing Source, and at least 2 1/2 years creating, recreating, and rerecreating Source, with some HL2 planning, so they could know exactallly what they would need for Source. Then they started actually making HL2. time rolls along until August 2003.





Here it is(just to clarify, this is no longer aimed at one specific person):

Everything is looking good, they are targeting a September end-of-the-month release, they are working out the kinks on their final area, having debugged most of the rest of the game. Then, WHAMMO, they realize that their final area, their magnificent ending, the climax of all FPS gaming, sucks. Maybe they missed something, maybe they changed their minds about something, maybe they just ****ed up somewhere, god only knows. Denial set in, they rushed and hurried, trying to salvage a september release. Gabe, in his heart, knows the date will be pushed, and he is ready to do anything for his masterpiece. Doug, PR that he is, is not the most updated of the development team, and yet goes around telling the press about it. by mid september, when the whole valve team knows they will have to wait, Doug is clueless. When he does find out for sure, his only option is to pull some marketing strategies, whatever they may have been. now the game gets postponed, and due to complications including hacker attacks, leaks, Doug being an embarrasment as a PR, etc, the community is left in the dark. What has VALVe spent the last 7 months doing? NOT being assholes and holding the game, NOT covering up for complete lies from September 2003, NOT creating long, in-depth, drawn out explanations of what really happened, and most of all, NOT remaking the entire game. They have been completing a remake of some vital portion of the game(Most likely the ending) so that the game doesn't suck, so the community doesn't buy a 3/4 finished game, so the community doesnt have an incomplete experience, so every individual member of the community gets what they seem to ferverently believe they deserve, THE BEST DAMN GAME EVER, PART TWO.

If Gabe and the folks at VALVe wanted to make money, they wouldnt have delayed HL2, they wouldnt have poured hundreds of thousands more dollars into its development, they wouldnt have rehashed an entire portion of the game, they wouldn't have given a shit about what the community thought about their ending(which probably would have been more of a "buy the sequel" ending), and most importantly, they would be currently releasing their ending of the B-grade shooter trilogy, half-life, after rushing the original, giving Source the finger, rushing the sequel, turning around and giving Source two fingers, and rushing the ending. So quit whining, quit complaining, quit imagining hoaxes, and SHUT THE **** UP, VALVe doesn't owe you shit, you owe VALVe your souls for the extra year, the extra millions, the extra dedication, the new engine, the revolutionary content delivory system, they second extra year, the extra millions more, the extra dedication that has engulfed their very lives, and your complete heartlessness and utter disregard for the sacrifices they have made for the games, for the genre, for gaming as a whole, for the internet and its future as a whole, and for YOUR xxx SORRY xxx ASSES.

I am done. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm God, I'm not even saying you are wrong. I'M SAYING YOU'RE UNGRATEFUL BITCHES.




Questions? Comments? Hate mail? Want to send me money? [email protected]. E-mails welcome

 

[blahblahblah]

Now that is a big post. ^

 

[Naft]

Continued from Previous

.





I can't believe i was at 10001 characters.

 

[Spiffae]

Naft, that is one of the best posts i've seen on this forum in a long time. I think hl2.net should put it up in their articles section. It's a worthwhile read for anyone. I pretty much agree with you on the cause for the delay... I hadn't thought about them redoing a section of HL2 because it wasn't coming together, but I agree that this delay is mosly due to Valve's committment to quality. Sure, they want to make money. Everyone wants to make money. The thing is that they know that releasing the best game of all time is a much better way to make back your investment than releasing a shoddy sequel.

I think we'll know more at E3, for sure. A playable demo level, even if it's traptown or something we've already seen would be very telling about where the game is in it's playability and how it's coming together.

For an insight into the refining graphics process, I'd like you all to look at the Barricade movie. Look at the part where the player comes off the street for the first time. He hides behind a wall and some blown out windows, made up of very simply polygons. the windows are simply rectangles, and the blown out wall is made of straight lines. then the player turns to the left and walks through a hole blown in the wall of the next building. That hole is made of a large number of polygons, with rebar coming out of the concrete, and looks a whole lot better. Now imagine the work involved in putting that much detail into a 36 hour game.

what the hell, i'll attach some shots for you.

 

[FoxDie]

Whoa...Nice post Naft :thumbs: I think I'll use an excerpt from that and use it as my sig :cheers:

 

[Naft]

heh. i just got caught up in the moment . . .

maybe i'll refine it and submit it as an article, we'll see.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

heh. i just got caught up in the moment . . .

maybe i'll refine it and submit it as an article, we'll see.

you should, it was a great read and should help some people put things into perspective.

 

[kaf11]

naft, i totally agree. good post.

 

[kalayq]

Good post Naft

 

[flupke]

what the hell, i'll attach some shots for you.

Wow nice! Didn't see that one yet!

 

[vicefredav444]

thank you, someone stepped up and spoke. I swear to god, all those words described exactly what I was thinking. Its like, I cant even thank Valve enough for everything they put into Source by itself, let alone hl2. Then I see people whining and complaining and I cant understand it. They put million of dollars into it, so many man hours and all we do is put 50 bucks in, oh wow. They just dont have a full overview of it. In the end gabe is the only one with the full overview. I hope gabe gets what he wants, whether its money or a great game/technology for the community.



oh and i'm sure they have Source patented, its a freakin gold mine.

 

[Rupertvdb]

yeah excellent post, just don't agree with any of your teeth gritting conclusion. I am guessing you were using emotive language when you went on about the soul front.

However, the extra millions, extra development stuff you went on about makes reasonable sense up until you drew the conclusion that the best way for them to make money would ahve been to rush out HL2 in a two bit sham of an excuse for a sequel. This is fundamentally wrong. A company that produces an excellent game is expected to do well next time, if they made a terrible excuse for a game then that would be their company down the pan. Several million people may buy the thing and they would have great profits, but then what. The companies reputation would be in tatters, no one would ever won't to buy or be associated with their products ever again and their status amoungst the professional community wouldn't be worth a jot. They would become the equivelant of the tesco's trolley pusher who is 48 years old and trying to support a crack habit on 4.25 an hour, i.e. No ones friend.

I am a very ardent fan of Valve i love their work and i frankly couldn't give two shits for whatever Doug Lombardi did wrong, he gets too much stick as it is. I am also totally against the idea that they do not owe us anything, it is ridiculous to assume that they needn't give us anything. That is what their company is based around, that is what all business is based around, providing for your customers is fundamental.

Just quit being such a bunch of tabloid wannabe's 'VALVE OWE YOU NOTHING' is ridiculous, they could turn it around, i definitly owe Valve something, i had a lot of fun with their product and continue to. They in turn have been held as Game Developing Gods for their work, all supported by their fans. I am not highlighting anyhting they owe us per se (i.e. they owe us screenshots, videos or even the game because i am tired of waiting, crap) but to discount their reliance on the community is naive.

 

[Apos]

You don't patent software, you copyright it.

 

[H-52]

Questions? Comments? Hate mail? Want to send me money? [email protected]. E-mails welcome

And this was the most accomplished piece of trolling I have seen in quite some time.

Congrats on your technique here dude, you almost got me, and I took your post dead serious for a while. Until I reread those two last paragraphs of yours

 

[Pitbul]

And this was the most accomplished piece of trolling I have seen in quite some time.

Congrats on your technique here dude, you almost got me, and I took your post dead serious for a while. Until I reread those two last paragraphs of yours

agreed.

 

[Keeson]

You missed the entire point of Birdwell's statement. They aren't working on the whole game at one time!

:dork: I don't think I missed the point actually...

Birdwell describes a "pipeline" process, so this "area" as you describe it can enter the pipeline at one end and come out the other end as a finished/complete/final release/gold level. Now anywhere along the pipeline a bottleneck can occur, maybe it occurs at the start when the are trying to create a playable "fun" area. Until an area is "fun" you are holding up the level designers/artists who will detail the level later on in the pipeline. As these bottlenecks occur they will cause the HL2 development to continually slip off schedule.

Birdwell admitted that only half the game was even at the first stage of the pipeline process on June 13th, 2003 and Gabe confirmed that the rest of the game was at least now entered into the pipeline on April 25th, 2004. :|

The whole game will have to go step by step through this pipeline. It is easy to imagine a step in this pipeline where Valve will have to test the scalability of a level. Remember they are claiming the game will run on DX6 parts with 800mhz min cpu. It is easy for them to create for example the "Barricade" level for E3 2003, add a crapload of detail, then run it on a 9800pro with a 2.5 gig cpu and blow us away. But how will that same level run on DX6 parts??? We know they use an LOD system for some of the static models in the game and that helps scalability, but that won't solve everything. Check out the detail in the picture Spiffae posted earlier in this thread. Will a slow computer choke on that detail?? How long will it take to create such detail in all levels??

Spiffae's Barricade Picture

Now what about texture scalability, will this be automatic?? Will there be multiple resolutions of textures??? What about those Geforce2MX cards with 32mb of ram, bet those need low res textures?? Will 64mb cards like Geforce3 and Radeon 8500 have a combination of hi and low res textures??? Will Valve take each area/level and test and optimize each one for optimal texture usage??? How will Valve test all of this and how low will it take??? Keep in mind they are also at the same time trying to add the detail to the levels that we expect from an "A" game - 36 hours worth of content!!!!!!! :imu:

If your a level designer you know something about the "vis" compile tool. It decides what brushwork in your level is visible or not visible from where you are standing at some point in the level. Whatever is visible the engine must draw it. If a level is poorly designed too much stuff may be visible all at once only fast computers will be able to handle the load and draw it all smoothly.
Now when Valve goes to add signifigant detail to their levels they will need to be very careful to test how it runs on lower end hardware. They will need to test in an iterative process and its going to take time.

Again, the key point Ken makes is: "It's a very time consuming process". Finished areas don't quickly come out the end of the pipeline there is alot of stuff that must completed and tested before and area/level is considered "gold".

One solution for Valve is to "screw the low end" that could save alot of time and help them get the game out in 2004. Why bother with people who have a Geforce2MX or a Geforce4MX card (26% of Valve's customers according to Valve's hardware survey). Those cards can't do any pixel or vertex shaders and alot of the GF2mx cards only have 32mb of memory. Maybe they will save time by not testing/designing levels to run well on such low end hardware???

Another solution to get the game out in 2004 as alluded to by Fragmaster is to "cut content". How about shorten the game from 36 hours to 25 hours, just chuck out 30% of the levels. That'll work!!! Maybe they should do a "Kill Bill" and cut the game into two parts: call one part HL2 and the other part HL3. Then focus all their development effort on the first half "HL2" and get that out in 2004. Hmmmm... wonder if they would do something like that.

But if Valve did any of this to ship in 2004 they wouldn't be living up to all those claims they made at E3 2003...

 

[vicefredav444]

You don't patent software, you copyright it.

I think they have a system in place to patent software technology, its just not the same as a utility patent. The current system is fine tho but some major companies are trying to improve it a little more. I'm not fully sure, i'm trying to learn myself but no matter what Source has to be protected. If not i'm stealing that shit. jk

 

[Vegeta897]

Hmmmm... wonder if they would do something like that.

They don't need to, the full game IS coming out this year.

 

[Frost]

For those wondering how the game is being developed please go to the link below. It’s a very interesting article on the technique they used to create the original Half-Life and it does discuss them scrapping entire sections to redo because they weren't happy with it. I e-mailed Gabe last week and the response is in here http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1298&page=32&pp=15 so that should cover the process they use, the team is always doing something but they are at times not as busy as other sections but they all contribute and they all do multiple jobs to help each other out.

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19991210/birdwell_pfv.htm

 

[Orange]

We think it is coming out this year. Something may come up still.

 

[kkevin666]

An early alpha is "playable"
It amazes me you people are willing to believe anything from this company

SEPT 26th 2003 " HL2 will be released sept 30TH "
SEPT 27th 2003 " HL2 will not be released sept 30th"


APRIL 26th 2004 " no release date known AT ALL"

This game will come AT THE EARLIEST SEPT 2004 probably with content cut
and nowhere near the quality you are expecting - mark my words.

 

[slicktick]

Go ahead be pessimistic, we don't care, we have reservations, but ya know, you have no proof, same as us. And that is that.

 

[The Mullinator]

An early alpha is "playable"
It amazes me you people are willing to believe anything from this company

SEPT 26th 2003 " HL2 will be released sept 30TH "
SEPT 27th 2003 " HL2 will not be released sept 30th"


APRIL 26th 2004 " no release date known AT ALL"

This game will come AT THE EARLIEST SEPT 2004 probably with content cut
and nowhere near the quality you are expecting - mark my words.

Its not like the company lives to decieve us. If we are going to take any information and assume it to be true it will be from the the people who are actually making the game. Like Slicktick said, you have just as much information as we do, you choose to believe what you want and we choose to believe what we want.

 

[PvtRyan]

An early alpha is "playable"
It amazes me you people are willing to believe anything from this company

SEPT 26th 2003 " HL2 will be released sept 30TH "
SEPT 27th 2003 " HL2 will not be released sept 30th"


APRIL 26th 2004 " no release date known AT ALL"

This game will come AT THE EARLIEST SEPT 2004 probably with content cut
and nowhere near the quality you are expecting - mark my words.

\o/ GREAT! Another f*cktard who hears something about content being cut, THAT SHIT ALWAYS HAPPENS!
You've said your part, now pack up your shit and get the **** out of here.

 

[kkevin666]

Its not like the company lives to decieve us. If we are going to take any information and assume it to be true it will be from the the people who are actually making the game. Like Slicktick said, you have just as much information as we do, you choose to believe what you want and we choose to believe what we want.

[Flamebait Removed] --Pendragon

 

[Direwolf]

Offcourse! Because Valve is the incarnation of evil and they hate all people!
Now, lets not be hasty. This dude is obviously flamebait.

 

[The Mullinator]

So the developers released the game 30th SEPT 2003 then?
When will certain people wake up to the fact VALVE DELIBERATELY misled
all its fans /the general public/stores etc.
Because thats exactly what they did.

Yes they started HL2 with the sole purpose in mind of misleading everyone. Unless you can come up with an actual reason WHY they would purposely mislead everyone there really isn't much too that argument, it just becomes a conspiracy theory.

 

[EvilInside]

Yes they started HL2 with the sole purpose in mind of misleading everyone. Unless you can come up with an actual reason WHY they would purposely mislead everyone there really isn't much too that argument, it just becomes a conspiracy theory.

The delay of CS:CZ maybe?
With all the mods releasing with source engine (cs2 too) its sales would have droped a lot

 

[Direwolf]

That theory's been discounted a thousand times over. If you want to check just search for it in the speculation threads.

 

[Apos]

That they are now shooting for "late" summer does not bode well in my book. I originally got the impression that it was coming early this summer. But sounds like it just keeps on slipping further and further, bit by bit.

 

[Spiffae]

That they are now shooting for "late" summer does not bode well in my book. I originally got the impression that it was coming early this summer. But sounds like it just keeps on slipping further and further, bit by bit.

let's just see at E3

 

[Naft]

However, the extra millions, extra development stuff you went on about makes reasonable sense up until you drew the conclusion that the best way for them to make money would ahve been to rush out HL2 in a two bit sham of an excuse for a sequel. This is fundamentally wrong. A company that produces an excellent game is expected to do well next time, if they made a terrible excuse for a game then that would be their company down the pan. Several million people may buy the thing and they would have great profits, but then what. The companies reputation would be in tatters, no one would ever won't to buy or be associated with their products ever again and their status amoungst the professional community wouldn't be worth a jot. They would become the equivelant of the tesco's trolley pusher who is 48 years old and trying to support a crack habit on 4.25 an hour, i.e. No ones friend.

The hypothetical situation I was painting started off with VALVe not rehashing the original Half-Life, therefore the sequel would not have had such high expectations and would have ended up rushed as well, or just a lower-level product. From a purely business standpoint, destroying 1-2 years worth of work and remaking an entire game is not going to earn you more money(except on a long shot). No company except one dedicated purely to gaming quality would have redone an entire shooter that would make them millions in its current state. VALVe is obviously one of those companies, and now that they have taken that path there is no turning back. But before, at that critical moment between releasing B+ Half-life and spending a year longer and a years worth more money in order to make it an A-grade game(which still does not assure magnificent success, with no background and a new style Half-Life could have easily bitten the dust, no matter the quality. Luckily for VALVe the community liked it. If they hadn't, gabe newell would be one bankrupt man.

Just quit being such a bunch of tabloid wannabe's 'VALVE OWE YOU NOTHING' is ridiculous, they could turn it around, i definitly owe Valve something, i had a lot of fun with their product and continue to. They in turn have been held as Game Developing Gods for their work, all supported by their fans. I am not highlighting anyhting they owe us per se (i.e. they owe us screenshots, videos or even the game because i am tired of waiting, crap) but to discount their reliance on the community is naive.

From my point of view, no one owes anyone anything. You cannot have any allegiences, debts or "owing"'s to or from anyone who you have no relationship that entails those. Your $50 that you spent you spent for that game, not the next in the series. Once you buy that game, its over. thats all you bought, no one owes you anything else for it, and you dont owe them anything. They spend millions making a game, so what, that doesnt mean you should buy it, even if you bought the previous game. They chose to spend those millions with either the intent of making millions more or just because they thought it was the right thing to do. In no way do they owe you anything for the millions THEY spent, and in no way do you owe them for the millions they chose to spend. Thats how capitalism works, you can do whatever you'd like that you have the dough for, but no one, nobody, no thing, owes you anything. If you want people to owe you things for no reason, go live in a utopia, then you can whine your ass off about how you dont get paid, and how the people who owe you food wont give it to you. VALVe doesnt owe us screenshots, videos, demos, or any of that crap unless we made an agreement with them that they would give us that(which of course, we didnt). It may be good business sense, thats their call, its their business. But maybe, just maybe, they are taking the time they could spend making screenshots and using it to shorten up the delay by several months. It is time for the whiners to decide what they want, screenshots, or the game.

You don't patent software, you copyright it.

yeah, I wasn't thinking of the copyright aspect, more a patent on the intellectual concept of a compeltely physics-based engine. I'm still not sure how well that would fit withing patent laws though. A copyright only protects the immediate content within the engine, while a patent I believe would protect the concept as well(for a limited time).

And this was the most accomplished piece of trolling I have seen in quite some time.

Congrats on your technique here dude, you almost got me, and I took your post dead serious for a while. Until I reread those two last paragraphs of yours

WTF? I think you are reading a little to much into this, either that or your mind is too entrenched in skepticism and hate. I am dead serious. Believe me, if I was being sarcastic or satirical you would know on the first read through. Unless you were one of those people who cannot detect sarcasm it would be pretty obvious, because when I use sarcasm, you can feel it running off the written words like water over niagra falls.

I don't think I missed the point actually...

Birdwell describes a "pipeline" process, so this "area" as you describe it can enter the pipeline at one end and come out the other end as a finished/complete/final release/gold level. Now anywhere along the pipeline a bottleneck can occur, maybe it occurs at the start when the are trying to create a playable "fun" area. Until an area is "fun" you are holding up the level designers/artists who will detail the level later on in the pipeline. As these bottlenecks occur they will cause the HL2 development to continually slip off schedule.

ok, so maybe you didnt miss it entirely, but you at least hit it a little sideways. I'm quite sure VALVe realizes the time complications involved in their process, and im sure they decided it is quite worth that possibility. But what you were saying(as i read it at least) was that their folly lay in doing that to the whole game at one time. I was merely attempting to point out the fact that they are managing that as well as possible, and that the reason they were so confident about their release is because it seemed(based on their years of experience with the process) that each and every section was satisfactorily completed. Maybe they decided ultimately that it wasnt, or whatever. No one is perfect, and shit happens. The rest of my post really didnt have much to do with your statement, yours was just what spawned my tirade.

and im fairly sure the gameplay testing that both ken and gabe spoke about is the very very end of the pipeline(I think the two instances where ken mentioned the testing are different things, he says gameplay testing and play testing, the way i read it it could quite mean play testing=testing to see how the basic level plays, balancing, etc; and gameplay testing=testing to make sure the gameplay is smooth, consistent, and bug-free. But we can never know unless we ask him), making sure that the whole thing plays well, no bugs, glitches, or simple inconsistencies(That might have slipped by during the rest of the process). while they were playtesting that first half, im sure the rest of the game was also somewhere in the pipeline process. What needs to be remembered is that even though they work progressively on each section, they still have an entire team of people working on their portion of the next(or previous) section. So while the third section is being finalized/tested, the fourth is getting the artwork finished up, the fifth is having the physics etc worked out, and the final area is going through the mapbuilding process. But, again, we really dont know, so it could be anything.

One final thing we need to remember: They aren't perfect, but they are professionals, and the foremost experts on their process. They know what they are doing a hell of a lot better than we can speculate.

Lets all just sit back, relax, and wait for summer.

 

[Lobster]

Im so glad you summerized on the last line :S

 

[Vegeta897]

Im so glad you summerized on the last line :S

No kidding, my eyes lost functionality halfway through that novel of yours.

But what I did manage to read made perfect sense.

I hope you two don't get into a flame war or something.

 

[Styloid]

I don't think anybody has ever had their opinions changed in one of these forum arguments. People come in stubborn and narrow minded and they don't get anything out of the discussion....
Even if you don't agree someone you should still look at their ideas; not be ignorant and call them a troll.

 

[H-52]

WTF? I think you are reading a little to much into this, either that or your mind is too entrenched in skepticism and hate. I am dead serious. Believe me, if I was being sarcastic or satirical you would know on the first read through. Unless you were one of those people who cannot detect sarcasm it would be pretty obvious, because when I use sarcasm, you can feel it running off the written words like water over niagra falls.

LOL. My mind entrenched in skepticism and hate ?? That’s a jolly good one.

Sorry, but I find it completely impossible to take your lengthy post even remotely seriously. Take that last paragraph for instance were you are talking about us being ungrateful sons of bitches. I mean seriously WTF is this. Valve software is a commercial company. We pay them money for their products. For this money they had better damn well deliver a quality product. And we absolutely don’t have to be grateful to them.

Your paragraph on the source engine had me seriously laughing out loud. Come on, are you really really thinking that virtually any game can be made with the source engine?? Have you even thought this one trough or are you just tapping away ?? Source is good. Source is damn good. But you don’t need to make any such outlandish statements to praise its qualities.

On the remote chance that as you say your post was indeed intended to be in earnest then I strongly suggest that the HL2 staff goes ahead and publish it as article indeed. Under the heading “retarded fanboy fiction”

 

[amneziac85]

I don't think anybody has ever had their opinions changed in one of these forum arguments. People come in stubborn and narrow minded and they don't get anything out of the discussion....
Even if you don't agree someone you should still look at their ideas; not be ignorant and call them a troll.

Bravo, I agree 100%.