U.S. signaling end to rebuilding Iraq

[kaf11]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06002/631254.stm

"The Bush administration does not intend to seek any new funds for Iraq reconstruction in the budget request going before Congress in February, officials say.

"The U.S. never intended to completely rebuild Iraq," Brig. Gen. William McCoy, the Army Corps of Engineers commander overseeing the work, told reporters in a recent news conference. In an interview this past week, Gen. McCoy said: "This was just supposed to be a jump-start."

Oil production stands at roughly 2 billion barrels a day, compared with 2.6 billion before U.S. troops entered Iraq in March 2003, according to U.S. government statistics.

The national electrical grid has an average daily output of 4,000 megawatts, about 400 megawatts less than its prewar level.

Iraqis nationwide receive on average fewer than 12 hours of power a day. For residents of Baghdad, it was six hours a day last month, according to a U.S. count, though many residents say that figure is high."


I was quite shocked to read this in my paper this morning. What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[Nat Turner]

Good. We shouldn't be throwing our money away.

 

[dream431ca]

Doesn't suprise me one bit. Just another reason to be negative to the US. They really should stop making people hate their country (and when I say "they", I mean the US administration), the people can't do anything about it...and they probably wouldn't if they could.

 

[kaf11]

I wouldnt consider providing the necessary infrastructure and energy to a country we invaded "throwing money away."

 

[gh0st]

Doesn't suprise me one bit. Just another reason to be negative to the US. They really should stop making people hate their country (and when I say "they", I mean the US administration), the people can't do anything about it...and they probably wouldn't if they could.

shut up, quit trying to be cptstern jr, its not impressive at all and should shame you.

sounds to me like we got iraq pretty well on its way. they have a government with growing strength and they can handle their own reconstruction now, we cant be expected to wipe their ass every part of the journey, its time to lay some responsibility on the iraqi government.

 

[Nat Turner]

I wouldnt consider providing the necessary infrastructure and energy to a country we invaded "throwing money away."

Why? So the war doesn't seem so bad? We invaded them and took over the country, destroying lots and killing many in the process. Get over it. It's war. Doesn't mean we're obligated to rebuilding it.

 

[kirovman]

Oh well, at least the oil is secured.

*dollar signs in eyes, ala Shodan

 

[dream431ca]

shut up, quit trying to be cptstern jr, its not impressive at all and should shame you.

sounds to me like we got iraq pretty well on its way. they have a government with growing strength and they can handle their own reconstruction now, we cant be expected to wipe their ass every part of the journey, its time to lay some responsibility on the iraqi government.

Bah. It's not stern's fault. Probably just about Every Canadian feels the same way.

 

[kaf11]

Why? So the war doesn't seem so bad? We invaded them and took over the country, destroying lots and killing many in the process. Get over it. It's war. Doesn't mean we're obligated to rebuilding it.

Not obliged? Did you even read your own comment?

 

[gh0st]

Bah. It's not stern's fault. Probably just about Every Canadian feels the same way.

this is just so typical of the US (by US i mean government because i'm too much of a pussy to insult the american people)! look at how they just go in RAVAGE a country then abandon it to its own devices! those irresponsible baboons its time we stood up and DID something about it! WHOSE WITH ME!?

*silence

 

[Nat Turner]

Not obliged? Did you even read your own comment?

Yes, I understood what I was writing. We could rebuild any 3rd world country, including Iraq, and to do so is a waste of money.

 

[kaf11]

I dont understand how humanitarian aid could possibly be a waste of money for the U.S.

 

[Nat Turner]

I dont understand how humanitarian aid could possibly be a waste of money for the U.S.

Because it's using U.S. tax dollars to help non-U.S. citizens. It's not (or shouldn't be) our jurisdiction. Only Iraqi money (or possibly international) should be used to build Iraq.

 

[kaf11]

Throughout history isolationist policy has proven itself unsuccessful. In this modern age you need to think of youself more as a citizen of the world, not just as a citizen of your nation.

 

[Nat Turner]

Throughout history isolationist policy has proven itself unsuccessful. In this modern age you need to think of youself more as a citizen of the world, not just as a citizen of your nation.

What do you mean by "unsuccessful"? It's not isolationist policy by the way, just non-humanitarian policy. I think we should definitely trade with global markets, etc.

 

[kaf11]

Then in order to be successful on a global scale I dont think we should have a "**** them they're not american" attitude toward a country we just decimated.

 

[Nat Turner]

Then in order to be successful on a global scale I dont think we should have a "**** them they're not american" attitude toward a country we just decimated.

Then perhaps we should not decimate countries. Obviously.

Decimating countries is completely ****ing them over in a first place.

 

[Glirk Dient]

If you haven't noticed about half of America and all of canada are whining and saying Iraq is a waste. In order to make the public happy we are cutting funds for helping people. Instead we should spend that money on drug addicts so they can get their fix and by releasing rapists and murders back into society instead of rebuilding iraq after we freed those people from oppresion and a genocidal dictator and we gave them freedom and a democracy. Now all we want is to help rebuild their country so they can be a beacon of hope in the war torn middle east. Yet...spending money on that is un reasonable?

 

[dream431ca]

this is just so typical of the US (by US i mean government because i'm too much of a pussy to insult the american people)! look at how they just go in RAVAGE a country then abandon it to its own devices! those irresponsible baboons its time we stood up and DID something about it! WHOSE WITH ME!?

*silence

So would you like me to start to insult the American people? I think that's a bad idea. IMO the people have nothing to do with this. It's the governments decision not the peoples. But ya, I do see how that statement that we make can get extremely old, but it's just in responce to the news. And why should the rest of the world meddle in your affairs? I can't wait until 2008, I heard that the former mayor of new york might run for president. If he does, I hope he wins. Anyway...It's a lot better to insult your goverment then it is to insult the whole country. At least it keeps the majority of the states happy with the majority of the people who live in Canada.

 

[Nat Turner]

If you haven't noticed about half of America and all of canada are whining and saying Iraq is a waste. In order to make the public happy we are cutting funds for helping people. Instead we should spend that money on drug addicts so they can get their fix and by releasing rapists and murders back into society instead of rebuilding iraq after we freed those people from oppresion and a genocidal dictator and we gave them freedom and a democracy. Now all we want is to help rebuild their country so they can be a beacon of hope in the war torn middle east. Yet...spending money on that is un reasonable?

Yes. Spending money on any of that is not reasonable.

 

[Sprite]

Nat everything you say is unbeliavable naive. How can you think it is fair that your moronic government destroyed another country for no reason but they won't rebuild it? Do you even have morals?

 

[Cole]

Sprite, we have been rebuilding it. Anyway just because there not seeking funds may mean they believe they have already raised enough money to get Iraq to stand on it's on two feet and take care of itself. Once Iraq can take care of itself they can start rebulding it opening up jobs for IRAQIES, thus HELPING THEIR ECONOMY. If anything rebuilding them to a point where they can rebuild themselves is a good thing. It will open up tons of jobs for Iraqies and give a jump start to there economy.

 

[CptStern]

I couldnt help but laugh at the thread title ....if you hadnt destroyed it, it wouldnt need repair now would it?


no electricty in many parts of iraq since 2003, 4-5 hrs a day in baghdad, 100% of the population on food rations, no security ...ya you're rebuilding it alright

 

[Cole]

I couldnt help but laugh at the thread title ....if you hadnt destroyed it, it wouldnt need repair now would it?

What do you expect when you launch missiles and send in tanks and use B2 stealth bombers and etc.. Obviously shits gonna be destroyed. Also if anything Baghdad would be the worst hit and probably the hardest and longest spot to rebuild, because we hit it very hard. Alot of other outlying ones that there were less terrorists less defense less use for missiles are going to have it much easier and are going to rebuild faster and have many more hours of electricity than baghdad.

And no secruity? Did you read the article Cptstern?
"In addition, from 14 percent to 22 percent of the cost of every nonmilitary reconstruction project goes toward security against insurgent attacks,"
"U.S. officials more than doubled the size of the Iraqi army, which they initially planned to build to only 40,000 troops."

Also:
"At the same time, the hundreds of Americans and Iraqis who have devoted themselves to the reconstruction effort point to 3,600 projects that the United States has completed or intends to finish before the $18.4 billion runs out around the end of 2006. They include work on 900 schools, construction of hospitals and nearly 160 health-care centers and clinics, and repairs on or construction of nearly 800 miles of highways, city streets and village roads."
Yes I would say that is rebuilding it.

Heres the main issue with electricity:
"But the insurgency has set back efforts across the board. In two of the most crucial areas, electricity and oil production, relentless sabotage has kept output at or below prewar levels despite the expenditure of hundreds of millions of American dollars and countless man-hours"

You just nitpick at the bad things

I mean c'mon even before the war Iraq must of still been kind of bad with electrcity:
"The national electrical grid has an average daily output of 4,000 megawatts, about 400 megawatts less than its prewar level."
That means before the war it was just 4,400 megawatts.

 

[CptStern]

What do you expect when you launch missiles and send in tanks and use B2 stealth bombers and etc.. Obviously shits gonna be destroyed. Also if anything Baghdad would be the worst hit and probably the hardest and longest spot to rebuild, because we hit it very hard. Alot of other outlying ones that there were less terrorists less defense less use for missiles are going to have it much easier and are going to rebuild faster and have many more hours of electricity than baghdad.

.....but... it was all based on lies this wouldnt have happened otherwise

And no secruity? Did you read the article Cptstern?
"In addition, from 14 percent to 22 percent of the cost of every nonmilitary reconstruction project goes toward security against insurgent attacks,"
"U.S. officials more than doubled the size of the Iraqi army, which they initially planned to build to only 40,000 troops."

Also:
"At the same time, the hundreds of Americans and Iraqis who have devoted themselves to the reconstruction effort point to 3,600 projects that the United States has completed or intends to finish before the $18.4 billion runs out around the end of 2006. They include work on 900 schools, construction of hospitals and nearly 160 health-care centers and clinics, and repairs on or construction of nearly 800 miles of highways, city streets and village roads."
Yes I would say that is rebuilding it.

US banned EU countries as well as other countries from bidding on contracts, few if any iraqis are employed at many of the contracts awarded to american companies, US rewrote Iraq Patent laws favourable to US corporations (ie: GM seeds are to be sold to iraqi farmers who can no longer re-use their seeds)

Heres the main issue with electricity:
"But the insurgency has set back efforts across the board. In two of the most crucial areas, electricity and oil production, relentless sabotage has kept output at or below prewar levels despite the expenditure of hundreds of millions of American dollars and countless man-hours"

You just nitpick at the bad things

I mean c'mon even before the war Iraq must of still been kind of bad with electrcity:
"The national electrical grid has an average daily output of 4,000 megawatts, about 400 megawatts less than its prewar level."
That means before the war it was just 4,400 megawatts.

yes but they never recovered from desert storm:


"...rather than concentrating on achieving a specific level of damage to individual targets or target sets, the goal was to achieve a greater impact, such as shutting down the national electric power grid"

http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97134/app_05.htm





all I'm saying is that there's a certain level of responsibility that the US needs to step up to here since they caused it

 

[gh0st]

uh oh here comes the doom and gloom patrol.

 

[kaf11]

all I'm saying is that there's a certain level of responsibility that the US needs to step up to here since they caused it

CptStern, I knew you would be making an appearance in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

uh oh here comes the doom and gloom patrol.

Thanks for that insightful rebuttal.

I never would have guessed that there are people who aren't optimistic about the current state of Iraq.

Really, this is a stupid thread:

Because it's using U.S. tax dollars to help non-U.S. citizens. It's not (or shouldn't be) our jurisdiction.

Demanding that the one potentially helpful aspect of the multi-billion dollar Iraq war be abandoned to save money is stupid.

this is just so typical of the US (by US i mean government because i'm too much of a pussy to insult the american people)!

Complaining about a lack of misdirected nationalistic flames is stupid.

Wishing for less civility is stupid.

shut up, quit trying to be cptstern jr, its not impressive at all and should shame you.

Fetishizing CptStern to the point that you feel compelled to name-drop him in virtually every post you make is stupid.

Trying to use the name of someone who has earned more respect than you as an "insult" is stupid.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I couldnt help but laugh at the thread title ....if you hadnt destroyed it, it wouldnt need repair now would it?


no electricty in many parts of iraq since 2003, 4-5 hrs a day in baghdad, 100% of the population on food rations, no security ...ya you're rebuilding it alright

Hmm get tortured or killed off just because the dictator feels like it...or go without power and a few other utilities for a little bit but in the end be free and have a democracy. I think I will choose the safer future.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Saddam has been gone for many months now, so that what-if scenario is a pointless and distracting argument.

The real question is now whether the US helps make it a good democracy or leaves it as a shittier democracy.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Saddam has been gone for many months now, so that what-if scenario is a pointless and distracting argument.

The real question is now whether the US helps make it a good democracy or leaves it as a shittier democracy.

I didn't say it would take months...in any case a bright future is always best.

 

[gh0st]

Fetishizing CptStern to the point that you feel compelled to name-drop him in virtually every post you make is stupid.

Trying to use the name of someone who has earned more respect than you as an "insult" is stupid.

i dont name drop him in every post. dream is acting just like him, except about half as sensical as stern.

oh noes i think my internet respect went down a notch. shame, i could care less.

i dont have the time nor the inclination to scan the internet for stupid links like cptstern does. so i see fit to belittle his hard work with stupid one line responses. do i give a shit? no. should you? no. that would be stupid.

 

[Nat Turner]

Nat everything you say is unbeliavable naive. How can you think it is fair that your moronic government destroyed another country for no reason but they won't rebuild it? Do you even have morals?

It's not fair that we destroyed it, but we did. And there's no good reason to spend tax dollars to rebuild it. You're trying to justify stealing my money to pay for rebuilding something that I never supported destroying in the first place.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

i dont name drop him in every post. dream is acting just like him, except about half as sensical as stern.

oh noes i think my internet respect went down a notch. shame, i could care less.

i dont have the time nor the inclination to scan the internet for stupid links like cptstern does. so i see fit to belittle his hard work with stupid one line responses. do i give a shit? no. should you? no. that would be stupid.

You know what's really stupid? Admitting you're deliberately trolling. Bye.

 

[Sprite]

You're trying to justify stealing my money to pay for rebuilding something that I never supported destroying in the first place.

Of course I am, for it was your country who voted for Bush, and therefore for war, so you must bear the responsibilites of rebuliding Iraq. Saying "Don't spend my tax money on Iraq, I never wanted war!" is no defence, it's called democracy.

 

[CptStern]

Fetishizing CptStern to the point that you feel compelled to name-drop him in virtually every post you make is stupid.

Trying to use the name of someone who has earned more respect than you as an "insult" is stupid.

I'm flattered ...and maybe even a little aroused :naughty: ...I mean it's not everyday I'm fetishized /me struts

 

[ríomhaire]

Christ, Bush should doused in oil and burned.

 

[SAJ]

It's not fair that we destroyed it, but we did. And there's no good reason to spend tax dollars to rebuild it. You're trying to justify stealing my money to pay for rebuilding something that I never supported destroying in the first place

Why not spend your tax dollars on rebuilding? After all it was your tax dollars that were spent on destroying it in the first place.
Did you think all those missiles and bombs (that make for such good television) were free ? No, your tax dollars were turned into huge profits for privately owned "defense" contractors.
Now thats theft.

 

[Sprite]

Why not spend your tax dollars on rebuilding? After all it was your tax dollars that were spent on destroying it in the first place.
Did you think all those missiles and bombs (that make for such good television) were free ? No, your tax dollars were turned into huge profits for privately owned "defense" contractors.
Now thats theft.

Quoted for f'in truth.

 

[Yuri]

Doesn't suprise me one bit. Just another reason to be negative to the US. They really should stop making people hate their country (and when I say "they", I mean the US administration), the people can't do anything about it...and they probably wouldn't if they could.

That's a shitty reason to be negative towards US citizens. We don't take any part in these dumb-f*ck decisions.

Can't wait for 2008.

(New slogan of mine. Course, then our President will be Hilary Clinton and we will be proper f*cked)

The real question is now whether the US helps make it a good democracy or leaves it as a shittier democracy.

...and doomed to some worse fate than a bad democracy.