US soldier refugee hearing

[CptStern]

Jeremy Hinzman, a private first class with the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne, who arrived in Toronto (canada) on January 3 with his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their 21-month-old son, Liam. In contrast to Hughey, Hinzman engaged a lengthy process of pleading from within his unit for non-combat duty as a conscientious objector (C.O.). After his request was denied, Hinzman faced orders for Iraq. He and his wife crammed what they could into their Chevy Prizm and headed north, with their son, from Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Hinzman, 25, understood what he was risking: if he wins his case, never being able to visit the U.S. again; if he loses, being deported, going directly to jail with a harsh sentence. Desertion during wartime is a capital offense; though the last execution for a runaway soldier was in 1945, Hinzman worries that the penalty could be revived. "The Bush administration has done so many unprecedented things," he notes. Nonetheless, seeking sanctuary in Canada looked better than any alternative. Hinzman reasons, "I thought of refusing orders and turning myself in [as Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia did last month]. But because of how they had handled my C.O. application, I wasn't sure I would get a fair shake. Anyway, I don't feel I should be incarcerated for following my conscience."


Monday is his refugee hearing. Here's his online petition. He's collected more than 15,000 written signatures and another 8000 online

there are a total of 4 US deserters currently seeking refugee status in Canada

they probably wont get it unless they can prove the US will either execute (havent executed a deserter since 1945) or torture him.

 

[GiaOmerta]

though the last execution for a runaway soldier was in 1945

Deserters are shot present day and rightfully so. Patton didnt tolerate it, and that's what we need present day... another Patton.

 

[CptStern]

so you're ok with making his two young kids orphans, based a war that he didnt want to go because he felt he was lied to? ...ya that seems fair

 

[Eg.]

along with a Rose and McArthur. besides, C.O's are only alotted to Mormons, and since it seems he wasnt one, screw him. WHo the hell joins the army, and then when a war kicks in says they cant because their a C.O?

 

[KoreBolteR]

so us army deserters are shot? :/
i didnt have any idea about this, jus thought they went to prison..

 

[CptStern]

so what the difference if he was in iraq and was killed by an insurgent? I bet then you'd all call him a hero, even though he was a conscientious objector.

 

[GiaOmerta]

He has a duty to he's country, and to himself as a man.

He made an oath to uphold this:

The Code of Conduct

I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

 

[GiaOmerta]

so what the difference if he was in iraq and was killed by an insurgent? I bet then you'd all call him a hero, even though he was a conscientious objector.

He died in combat which is honorable. He is to decorated for he's service to he's country.
He's children would learn freedom comes with a price. They would charish the freedoms they hold even more as they mean something.
I just hope he decides against all this and doesnt dishonor himself and he's name.

 

[CptStern]

He died in combat which is honorable. He is to decorated for he's service to he's country.
He's children would learn freedom comes with a price. They would charish the freedoms they hold even more as they mean something.
I just hope he decides against all this and doesnt dishonor himself and he's name.

even though he was a conscientious objector you still label him a hero so long as his died with a uniform on? :rolling:

 

[GiaOmerta]

I didnt say hero.

 

[CptStern]

hero, honourable same bullshit. Answer the question

 

[seinfeldrules]

Ship him back so he can sit in jail for the next 25 years. He should have known the commitment he was making when he signed up.

 

[CptStern]

here ya go

 

[GiaOmerta]

Alright

Dying in combat is honorable. Best way to die actually.

Hero... I.E. Firefighters who responded during September 11th, when they could of simply said... wow, **** this, bye.

When shit hit the fan. They responded and many gave their lives for complete strangers. That's heroic.

 

[seinfeldrules]

here ya go

You join the army to fight. He is a liar if he didnt know the consequences.

 

[GiaOmerta]

He made a vow. There is no honor in breaking it.

 

[Eg.]

i love how hes concerned that the new government will be anti american, right after he says it would be a puppet. he really needs soem military service to smarten him up.

again, who the hell joins the army and then says, nope, bye bye, and think everything will be okay.

 

[seinfeldrules]

BTW is anyone else suprised that Stern started another topic bashing the US? I freaking almost had a heart attack. Shocked the hell outa me.

 

[CptStern]

haha you guys are so uptight

 

[CptStern]

He made a vow. There is no honor in breaking it.

what would you say to his children if executed? "our president lied, your daddy died"

 

[GiaOmerta]

Your father was a coward. Nothing more to say.

haha you guys are so uptight

No room for cowards within the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

 

[gh0st]

throw the book at him. no room for "conscientious objectors" in this mans army. you dont question orders in the military. if he didnt want to fight, he shouldnt have joined up. desertion is bordering on treason in my opinion. why the hell should the government have paid him for his "serivce" just to have him run the hell away to some pussy country like canada? typical.

 

[qckbeam]

Christ people, even if you become a soldier you're still an individual with the ability to think and make decisions for yourself. What is he supposed to do? His life could be wasted for a cause he and many, many others feel is unjust and invalid. Would you give your life for a cause you feel is unjust? Would you go die for something you didn't believe in? He gave himself to the armed forces and was prepared to serve his country if it needed defending. The war in Iraq is one based off of lies, deceit, and misinformation and he doesn't want to die for that. He feels his country is misusing him, and countless others agree. Soldiers shouldn't blindly follow the leader. We need soldiers that question the morality of their orders before carrying them out.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Give him a few months jail at the maximum. It's a bullshit war anyway.

 

[gh0st]

its soldiers JOB to "blindly" follow the leader. thats what they legally have to do. i know that when i join the military, i will fight wherever i have to go. for me, it would be hard to live with myself if i didnt, if i RAN AWAY to canada. thank god this is a rather small part of our military that pussies out like this.. its rediculous.

and if you called a marine/machine [yes im aware the article is referring to an army soldier] an individual with the ability to think and make decisions for his self, i think youd be laughed off the internets. if all our soldiers acted like this, they just blindly discredit ANY military action because they "can." more than likely this guy doesnt give a **** about the war, he just doesnt want to go because hes a PUSSY.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Would you give your life for a cause you feel is unjust? Would you go die for something you didn't believe in?

I wouldnt join the army.

We need soldiers that question the morality of their orders before carrying them out.

Thats not the point of the army in basic terms. I'm sure it would be a well oiled machine if people questioned orders everytime they were issued.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

We could think up 101 situations where it would be in your best interests the interests of humanity if you disobeyed orders.

The theory of blindly following any order is wrought with problems as demonstrated in Crimson Tide. That Gene Hackman phwoaarrr the shit would have hit the fan if Denzel didn't stick it to the man.

 

[qckbeam]

its soldiers JOB to "blindly" follow the leader. thats what they legally have to do. i know that when i join the military, i will fight wherever i have to go. for me, it would be hard to live with myself if i didnt, if i RAN AWAY to canada. thank god this is a rather small part of our military that pussies out like this.. its rediculous.

and if you called a marine/machine [yes im aware the article is referring to an army soldier] an individual with the ability to think and make decisions for his self, i think youd be laughed off the internets. if all our soldiers acted like this, they just blindly discredit ANY military action because they "can." more than likely this guy doesnt give a **** about the war, he just doesnt want to go because hes a PUSSY.

Yeah, this pussy doesn't want to give his life for a bullshit cause he doesn't believe in. What a HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING! A soldier is a human being and individual with the ability to think and make decisions for themselves in so far as being able to question the ethics behind their orders. Their JOB is ont to blindly follow orders, it is to DEFEND this country. If they are being misused it is their right to speak up.

 

[Tr0n]

haha you guys are so uptight

roflcopter

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yeah, this pusy doesn't want to give his life for a bullshit cause he doesn't believe in. What a HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING! A soldier is a human being and individual with the ability to think and make decisions for themselves in so far as being able to question the ethics behind their orders.

He shouldnt have joined the army. Plain and simple. He can make the decision to rot in jail for the rest of his life for scamming out on his duty. Cause -> Effect. Maybe that is beyond his intellectual prowess.

 

[gh0st]

Yeah, this pusy doesn't want to give his life for a bullshit cause he doesn't believe in. What a HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING! A soldier is a human being and individual with the ability to think and make decisions for themselves in so far as being able to question the ethics behind their orders.

god... YOU DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY UNLESS YOU ARE FULLY WILLING TO CARRY OUT WHATEVER ORDERS ARE GIVEN TO YOU. THE SYSTEM IS OUTSIDE OF YOUR CONTROL AND WHEN YOU ENLIST, YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE TO THESE TERMS. SEE A RECRUITER, AND LOOK AT THE FORMS YOU MUST SIGN.

the entire premise of your theory is just ludicrous, if we had soldiers disobeying orders left and right that would mean more casualties for REAL soldiers. i have no respect for men who join up for the education, waste my tax dollars on their equipment and training, or the tax free money, or the experience, and refuse to fight because they "dont believe in the war." well you know what, tough shit. if he cant handle the heat get his cowardly ass out of my country. canadas got plenty of room for these traitors.

 

[qckbeam]

god... YOU DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY UNLESS YOU ARE FULLY WILLING TO CARRY OUT WHATEVER ORDERS ARE GIVEN TO YOU. THE SYSTEM IS OUTSIDE OF YOUR CONTROL AND WHEN YOU ENLIST, YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE TO THESE TERMS. SEE A RECRUITER, AND LOOK AT THE FORMS YOU MUST SIGN.

the entire premise of your theory is just ludicrous, if we had soldiers disobeying orders left and right that would mean more casualties for REAL soldiers. i have no respect for men who join up for the education, waste my tax dollars on their equipment and training, or the tax free money, or the experience, and refuse to fight because they "dont believe in the war." well you know what, tough shit. if he cant handle the heat get his cowardly ass out of my country. canadas got plenty of room for these traitors.

It isn't ludicrous, it's actually quite sane. Soldiers shouldn't be these mindless machines that carry out every order given to them without thinking over the morality behind it. I applaud soldiers who have the guts to speak their mind. It's their lives on the line after all; why should they make the ultimate sacrifice for a cause they know to be wrong and unjust? They joined to defend our country, and if the government MISUSES THEM they have the right to speak up.

 

[seinfeldrules]

They joined to defend our country, and if the government MISUSES THEM they have the right to speak up.

Speak out by all means, just dont desert. Again, as gh0st pointed out it is all printed on the papers he signed.

 

[gh0st]

It isn't ludicrous, it's actually quite sane. Soldiers shouldn't be these mindless machines that carry out every order given to them without thinking over the morality behind it. I applaud soldiers who have the guts to speak their mind. It's their lives on the line after all; why should they make the ultimate sacrifice for a cause they know to be wrong and unjust? They joined to defend our country, and if the government MISUSES THEM they have the right to speak up.

your right, they should question orders pertaining to those given by direct superiers, who are ordering obviously unethical situations. shooting civilians, etc, genicide, etc. you do not opt out of an entire war, because your responsibility is to the man next to you, not yourself. he doesnt know how to be a team player, and its at the expense of other troops.

 

[seinfeldrules]

your right, they should question orders pertaining to those given by direct superiers, who are ordering obviously unethical situations. shooting civilians, etc, genicide, etc. you do not opt out of an entire war, because your responsibility is to the man next to you, not yourself. he doesnt know how to be a team player, and its at the expense of other troops.

Wow, very well put.

 

[CptStern]

so when do you guys leave for iraq to defend your country?

 

[seinfeldrules]

so when do you guys leave for iraq to defend your country?

Plan on joining up with the CIA, NSA, Military Intel etc. Where ever I can find a job.

 

[gh0st]

so when do you guys leave for iraq to defend your country?

after college, specifically in intelligence.

 

[CptStern]

after college, specifically in intelligence.

intelligence!!! hahahhahhahahhahhahahahahhahahhaha


"private gh0st we have reason to believe the earth is now officially flat"

"yes sir! that is correct sir!!!"


no offense but for the sake of your country I hope you both choose other careers

 

[gh0st]

well stern, ive taken your advice into consideration and ill have to get back to you on that one. your esteemed experience in military intelligence is overwhelming. you sir, are a model canadian citizen. however, i am capable of not letting my politics interfere with my work.

btw stern, youre a teacher right? what is it you teach.