US soldier refugee hearing

[seinfeldrules]

no offense but for the sake of your country I hope you both choose other careers

We disagree Herr Stern. What is this, are you talking away our right to free speach?! Noooo!!! If it offends you so much, move to Canada.


Mission Accomplished.

 

[qckbeam]

I'm not going to argue anymore since it's pretty clear neither side is going to sway the other. Ah well.

Seinfeld and gh0st, good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[gh0st]

qck, do they ever sway? were all pretty stonefaced with our issues, dont expect anybody to switch sides all of a sudden, especially since "facts" cant be used to prove anybody wrong. this is all an opinion.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Seinfeld and gh0st, good luck in your future endeavors.

Thanks, same to you.

 

[Tr0n]

I wouldn't mind serving in the military if the causes are just, but I want to move to israel one day and serve in there military. (for reasons I don't really want to state.)

 

[gh0st]

ive considered that too actually tr0n, but the logistics are pretty overwhelming for me at this time.

 

[qckbeam]

qck, do they ever sway? were all pretty stonefaced with our issues, dont expect anybody to switch sides all of a sudden, especially since "facts" cant be used to prove anybody wrong. this is all an opinion.

You'll sway damnit!

No I don't really expect to sway you, but I think I've gotten my opinion out there, and said what I had to say. That's all.

 

[GiaOmerta]

That's all we do in a forum. The neutrals guy pretty much stay clear on the Political forums. The rest of us, are garrisoned already in our beliefs.

I wouldn't mind serving in the military if the causes are just, but I want to move to israel one day and serve in there military. (for reasons I don't really want to state.)

I admire Israel. Surviving against all odds.

Ironic, in the Six Day War the surronding Arabic nations throw everything including the kitchen sink at Israel, yet Israel survived/repelled the attack and ended up with more land than they originally had. Makes you think huh.

 

[Spartan]

Deserters are shot present day and rightfully so. Patton didnt tolerate it, and that's what we need present day... another Patton.

Yeah, what a crime to desert Bush's Operation Oil.

He died in combat which is honorable. He is to decorated for he's service to he's country.
He's children would learn freedom comes with a price. They would charish the freedoms they hold even more as they mean something.
I just hope he decides against all this and doesnt dishonor himself and he's name.

Excuse me? How does the Iraq war grant Americans more freedom? I must be missing something, here.

No room for cowards within the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

Why not? There are plenty of cowards in your army. Like the fools of that prison with the difficult name.

throw the book at him. no room for "conscientious objectors" in this mans army. you dont question orders in the military.

*buzz* Wrong answer.

You don't need to follow illegal orders. If someone orders you to execute a civilian, for example, it's illegal dn you don't have to comply. Or maybe that's just us - maybe you do things different in the states. What do I know.

He shouldnt have joined the army.

That's true, if we assume that the normal role of the US military is to wage illegal war againts countries that pose no threat.

intelligence!!! hahahhahhahahhahhahahahahhahahhaha


"private gh0st we have reason to believe the earth is now officially flat"

"yes sir! that is correct sir!!!"

Hhahahahahaha.... hahahaeheahahhah... heheh..

 

[K e r b e r o s]

they probably wont get it unless they can prove the US will either execute (havent executed a deserter since 1945) or torture him.

Proof on the torture part ... in addition, what proof do you have now, that they'll allegedly execute him? [Politics aside]

so you're ok with making his two young kids orphans, based a war that he didnt want to go because he felt he was lied to? ...ya that seems fair

That's to your opinion if it was a lie about the war -- however, I just think he's afraid to die.

WHo the hell joins the army, and then when a war kicks in says they cant because their a C.O?

Exactly. You joined to serve the army -- that means, if they give you a rifle to kill someone, you are to kill that person. If he was a C.O., he shouldn't have joined in the first place. He could've CO'd without even providing service.

so what the difference if he was in iraq and was killed by an insurgent? I bet then you'd all call him a hero, even though he was a conscientious objector.

Yea, we would call him a hero; because technically he died for us. He’d be a hero to himself as well -- and his family.

even though he was a conscientious objector you still label him a hero so long as his died with a uniform on

Would you rather he die a coward with a uniform off?

hero, honourable same bullshit. Answer the question

Oh, pardon me. Looks like your own soldiers aren’t worth it either.

You join the army to fight. He is a liar if he didnt know the consequences.

To join the army and fight, is to sign a warrant for an early death. Good post.

He made a vow. There is no honor in breaking it.

Even better when mixed with this.

haha you guys are so uptight

Quik! Look below!

will either execute (havent executed a deserter since 1945) or torture him.

so you're ok with making his two young kids orphans, based a war that he didnt want to go because he felt he was lied to? ...ya that seems fair

I bet then you'd all call him a hero, even though he was a conscientious objector.

even though he was a conscientious objector you still label him a hero so long as his died with a uniform on?

hero, honourable same bullshit. Answer the question

Gasp! The contradictions!

what would you say to his children if executed? "our president lied, your daddy died"

If his Children were executed, they’re wouldn’t be much to say. Although, they’re wouldn’t be much to say for myself if I was executed.

The logic in your sentence sucks. :rolling: Please fix it kxthxbai.

We need soldiers that question the morality of their orders before carrying them out.

I agree with the mods point here, but not the rest of his post.

Yeah, this pussy doesn't want to give his life for a bullshit cause he doesn't believe in. What a HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING! A soldier is a human being and individual with the ability to think and make decisions for themselves in so far as being able to question the ethics behind their orders. Their JOB is ont to blindly follow orders, it is to DEFEND this country. If they are being misused it is their right to speak up.

I can somewhat see this point -- glad it was posted.

so when do you guys leave for iraq to defend your country?

The same time you join for Canada’s. That’ll be like, in what? Never. :rolling:

Yeah, what a crime to desert Bush's Operation Oil.

Deserters betray their country. They were shot by Britain in the 1800’s, they were hanged by us in 1779. None likes a team killer, that’s a fact.

Excuse me? How does the Iraq war grant Americans more freedom? I must be missing something, here.

You are. The logic of that mans post whom you quoted for your comment. Re-read it.

Why not? There are plenty of cowards in your army. Like the fools of that prison with the difficult name.

Those weren’t army. They were civilian contractors.

That's true, if we assume that the normal role of the US military is to wage illegal war againts countries that pose no threat.

That’s just if we assume -- however, for this scenario, it would not be a correct assessment.

 

[Spartan]

Deserters betray their country. They were shot by Britain in the 1800’s, they were hanged by us in 1779. None likes a team killer, that’s a fact.

Again why is it a bad thing to desert Bush's oil empire?

You are. The logic of that mans post whom you quoted for your comment. Re-read it.

Aside from the bad English, what is there to see?

Those weren’t army. They were civilian contractors.

Last time I heard, they were military.

That’s just if we assume -- however, for this scenario, it would not be a correct assessment.

It would be a correct assessment. It's the only assessment.

 

[Absinthe]

I see a lot of you guys getting up in arms, saying "OMG HE MADE A COMMITMENT TO THE ARMY WTFWTF WHAT A COWARD". You people are idiots.

You are not a coward if you back out of a war that you disagree with. You broke the commitment. There's nothing more to it than that, and you have no grounds to call this man a coward.

Also, you have this sick and frightening view that this man should do his duty for his country, regardless of what that may actually be. Would a man be honorable if he was ordered by his country to castrate and execute a child? According to you zealots, the man would be a dishonorable waste if he refused to do so.

 

[Eg.]

thing is, im too tall for the army. i mean as kids all young boys want to be in the army (8ish). im just to too tall. my height shuts me off from the navy, airforce, tank corps, and general infantry. most i could be is a general or field surgeon(im taking medical courses). i wouldnt join on my own because im an only child, but also because at my hieght, id get picked off easy.

but it would be fun to be a MRL guy.

 

[CptStern]

Proof on the torture part ... in addition, what proof do you have now, that they'll allegedly execute him? [Politics aside]

man kerberos stop jumping in mid-debate without reading what's been previously said. I said it was unlikely he would be executed (during war time all deserters are shot ..but as I pointed out before it hasnt been done since 45)

That's to your opinion if it was a lie about the war -- however, I just think he's afraid to die.

and you're not? sure pally ...again read the damn article he said he was MORALLY opposed to the war

Exactly. You joined to serve the army -- that means, if they give you a rifle to kill someone, you are to kill that person. If he was a C.O., he shouldn't have joined in the first place. He could've CO'd without even providing service.

so by that logic Bush should be shot for being a vietnam deserter ..oh I cant wait till they broadcast it on TV :upstare:

Yea, we would call him a hero; because technically he died for us. He’d be a hero to himself as well -- and his family.

you're a hypocrite ..he's a coward if he dies without his uniform, a hero if he dies with it on

Would you rather he die a coward with a uniform off?

ya like his wife and kids would appreciate the difference. You guys disgust me to no end ..just a bunch of ignorant morons. To you a patriot is someone who dies defending his country ..but everyone else is a coward ..well sign up for duty in iraq, stop being a coward and put your money where your mouth is ...maybe you'll get a chance to prove yourself a "hero" and die so someone else can line their pockets with dirty money. You're absolutely perfect flotsam for the rich. Totally loyal and totally dispensible. The propaganda machine works a little too well

Oh, pardon me. Looks like your own soldiers aren’t worth it either.



To join the army and fight, is to sign a warrant for an early death. Good post.



Even better when mixed with this.



Quik! Look below!



Gasp! The contradictions!




If his Children were executed, they’re wouldn’t be much to say. Although, they’re wouldn’t be much to say for myself if I was executed.

The logic in your sentence sucks. :rolling: Please fix it kxthxbai.

makes no sense what-so-ever

The same time you join for Canada’s. That’ll be like, in what? Never. :rolling:

now why would I join the army? you have every reason to, you support the war, you believe in the mission, you want to defend your country ..the fact that you havent joined leads to to one of many possible reasons:

1. You're a coward
2. you're all talk
3. You're too young to serve
4. You're a hypocrite


so what's your reason for not going to iraq? Is your country's interests not worth defending?

Deserters betray their country. They were shot by Britain in the 1800’s, they were hanged by us in 1779. None likes a team killer, that’s a fact.

so the 4 soldiers in canada should be shot? if half of americans beleive as you do they're better off in canada

 

[Eg.]

shot of be given life in prison.

 

[CptStern]

so what should bush get for deserting his military service? please say shot

 

[Gray Fox]

qck, do they ever sway? were all pretty stonefaced with our issues, dont expect anybody to switch sides all of a sudden, especially since "facts" cant be used to prove anybody wrong. this is all an opinion.

Since when do facts matter to all you people who support the war in Iraq.

QUOTE"
I admire Israel. Surviving against all odds.

Ironic, in the Six Day War the surronding Arabic nations throw everything including the kitchen sink at Israel, yet Israel survived/repelled the attack and ended up with more land than they originally had. Makes you think huh. "QUOTE

Israel isn't surviving against all ods, it's surviving because of america's aid, if it weren't for the aid it wouldn't exist nowdays.

 

[el Chi]

It might just be my hangover, but for once - and my fingers tremble as I type - I kind of sort agree with gh0st and seinfeldrules. Sort of. To an extent.

See the thing is, I can completely understand where he was coming from - I sympathise, I really do. I'd hate the idea of dying for a cause I felt was unjust and leaving my wife and two kids alone. It's a horrible thought, and going to Iraq because I had to would make me feel angry, depressed and disillusioned. And this feeling would only get worse as the campaign went on.
However. He signed up to the army and it's simply his job. I'm not going for all this "he should be honorable/a hero/true patriot/whatever" gubbins. ESPECIALLY not that "He'd be a Real Man" bollocks. But when he joined, surely he expected it would be possible he'd see combat? And with most combat situations, there will probably be some things you'll disagree with, but as a soldier sadly you have to cope with it. It's not nice, but it's a hard fact.
I've heard of many stories from soldiers who are desperately opposed to the war but that they feel obliged to do right by their colleagues and by their country. Now, you could say that they're just being mindless robots, but that's not true.
Like I say, I'd hate to be in his position. I wish they had given him a desk-job and all this would never have happened. Part of me hopes he wins. All of me hopes he isn't executed. But another part is just thinking that you reap what you sow. I feel sorry for him, but at the same time - well, did he expect anything else?

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel dirty - I'm going to have a shower.


EDIT: Probably worth adding that on many posts in this thread I mainly agree with Stern.

 

[Shad0hawK]

so you're ok with making his two young kids orphans, based a war that he didnt want to go because he felt he was lied to? ...ya that seems fair

gues what, the military is not a democracy, not even in canada.

i hope his hearing goes well for him, i want him to stay in canada as much as he does...

 

[Shad0hawK]

Since when do facts matter to all you people who support the war in Iraq.

QUOTE"
I admire Israel. Surviving against all odds.

Ironic, in the Six Day War the surronding Arabic nations throw everything including the kitchen sink at Israel, yet Israel survived/repelled the attack and ended up with more land than they originally had. Makes you think huh. "QUOTE

Israel isn't surviving against all ods, it's surviving because of america's aid, if it weren't for the aid it wouldn't exist nowdays.

israel did not have american aid in 1948 or in 1967, that is complete BS. get your facts straight.

in fact israel unaided could kick the arse of most european nations but rather quickly and even give the US a serious challenge for a while.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Putting the questions and quote for quote points aside, I happen to believe, in summary, this man could've saved himself a lot of trouble by not joining to begin with.

Since he left his own country to avoid persecution, I dont hope he gets death, but is punished for not bringing the fight home to Washington. However, if he wins, it will justify any soldiers leave and for any reason.

Whats an army, when it leaves?

 

[Gray Fox]

Hahahahahahaha :cheese: :smoking: :smoking: , ShadowHawk I always thought you were serious in your posts, now I see your trying to be a comedian. Anyways keep up the good work, you get them facts straight for us. :thumbs:

 

[Hapless]

First of all, I did go to Iraq during the first Gulf War. So none of this Michael Moore "Why don't you go or send your child," BS. Second, it is not the soldier's place to question the legitimacy of any war. A soldier may question an unlawful order given him by a superior, but is not free to say, "I disagree with this whole war, so I'm not going to go." The HUGE difference between these people and Vietnam era people is the Vietnam era people were DRAFTED. Even though I don't agree with the ones who ran to Canada, at least they have that excuse. Todays' U.S. military is all volunteer. It was each soldier's, sailor's, marine's and airman's choice to join the military.

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards. And no, Stern, I'm not uptight. I guess I believe these people are cowards in the same way you would think someone who railed against the war in private, but refuses to protest in public, is a coward. Or maybe you are so advanced as a human being that cowardice, honor, courage, conviction, and other such things are beneath you. I don't know.
Also, desertion during a time of war is punishable by execution under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Desertion during peacetime is not. Desertion during peacetime is defined as being AWOL for more than 30 days.

Sorry I've been absent for so long. HL2 and HL2DM are sucking up all my free time................

 

[Spartan]

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards.

Your veteran status (if we can call the Gulf a war) hardly gives you any credibility when you accuse COs of being cowards. Get a clue.

 

[CptStern]

First of all, I did go to Iraq during the first Gulf War. So none of this Michael Moore "Why don't you go or send your child," BS. Second, it is not the soldier's place to question the legitimacy of any war. A soldier may question an unlawful order given him by a superior, but is not free to say, "I disagree with this whole war, so I'm not going to go." The HUGE difference between these people and Vietnam era people is the Vietnam era people were DRAFTED. Even though I don't agree with the ones who ran to Canada, at least they have that excuse. Todays' U.S. military is all volunteer. It was each soldier's, sailor's, marine's and airman's choice to join the military.

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards. And no, Stern, I'm not uptight. I guess I believe these people are cowards in the same way you would think someone who railed against the war in private, but refuses to protest in public, is a coward. Or maybe you are so advanced as a human being that cowardice, honor, courage, conviction, and other such things are beneath you. I don't know.
Also, desertion during a time of war is punishable by execution under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Desertion during peacetime is not. Desertion during peacetime is defined as being AWOL for more than 30 days.

Sorry I've been absent for so long. HL2 and HL2DM are sucking up all my free time................

so ...in other words, Bush should be shot for desertion?

 

[gh0st]

*buzz* Wrong answer.

You don't need to follow illegal orders. If someone orders you to execute a civilian, for example, it's illegal dn you don't have to comply. Or maybe that's just us - maybe you do things different in the states. What do I know.

bzzzt, read the damn thread before commenting. maybe youd see where i said exactly what you said. hahaha you come here pretending to know what the hell youre talking about, when in fact you are just a stupid ass. congratulations.

 

[Spartan]

bzzzt, read the damn thread before commenting. maybe youd see where i said exactly what you said. hahaha you come here pretending to know what the hell youre talking about, when in fact you are just a stupid ass. congratulations.

hahahaahaha eheheh lol lol

I've read the entire thread. If you have something to say, say it, and don't hide behind the "0mg rolf read teh thread lollers" argument.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Also, you have this sick and frightening view that this man should do his duty for his country, regardless of what that may actually be. Would a man be honorable if he was ordered by his country to castrate and execute a child? According to you zealots, the man would be a dishonorable waste if he refused to do so.

This is what we are saying...

your right, they should question orders pertaining to those given by direct superiers, who are ordering obviously unethical situations. shooting civilians, etc, genicide, etc. you do not opt out of an entire war, because your responsibility is to the man next to you, not yourself. he doesnt know how to be a team player, and its at the expense of other troops.

 

[Bait]

Not being a "team player" that involves killing people for a reason you find unjust and immoral doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. If he isn't there, it's not like the entire US army will crumble into disorginization while bands of Iraqis kill soldiers left and right. The man clearly doesn't want to take part in this sham of a war, and for good reason, too I might add.

"That cowardly jackass had different opinions than our own and doesn't want to take part in defending the world's freedom from John Q. Terrorist. Let's shoot the bastard before he runs off to LiberalWorld, A.K.A Canada."

 

[Kangy]

israel did not have american aid in 1948 or in 1967, that is complete BS. get your facts straight.

in fact israel unaided could kick the arse of most european nations but rather quickly and even give the US a serious challenge for a while.

Actually, it had other Western help.

I really think you lack any kind of knowledge on the matter of warfare between a toenail of a civilization like Israel, to the comparatively big European countries.

Israel doesn't have enough people to survive one attack against a modern European army, especially since most of them have nuclear weapons and infantry to the same spec as the US, as well as a navy capable of anything interesting.

 

[Death.Trap]

He feels his country is misusing him, and countless others agree.

Actually, they aren't countless, something like 53 million. Then of course theres the 59 million who disagree with the 53 million who disagree with the war.

Then of course theres the 64% of the armed forces that support Bush.


eh? (no..I'm not canadian)

 

[Death.Trap]

intelligence!!! hahahhahhahahhahhahahahahhahahhaha


"private gh0st we have reason to believe the earth is now officially flat"

"yes sir! that is correct sir!!!"


no offense but for the sake of your country I hope you both choose other careers

You care about our country? That's hard to believe considering most of your post bash it to hell.

What's wrong with signing up for intelligence?

 

[Shad0hawK]

Actually, it had other Western help.

I really think you lack any kind of knowledge on the matter of warfare between a toenail of a civilization like Israel, to the comparatively big European countries.

Israel doesn't have enough people to survive one attack against a modern European army, especially since most of them have nuclear weapons and infantry to the same spec as the US, as well as a navy capable of anything interesting.

man you just dont have a clue do you?

 

[Shad0hawK]

ShadowHawk I always thought you were serious in your posts, now I see your trying to be a comedian. Anyways keep up the good work, you get them facts straight for us. :thumbs:

no problem.

in 1948 the only outside aid went from britain to various arab nations and groups in the form of arms. 4 british planes were shot down in combat by israel flying ironically enough german surplus planes. israel did not recive any aid from the united states. since you seem to think they did, could you list exactly what kind of aid here



president johnson initiated an arms embargo for the entire region in the 67 war although the soviets made massive arms shipments to egypt, syria, and jordan.(i supppose all this help for the arabs from the soviets is somehow irrelevant...)

a few americans served in the haganah in the 48 war, calling this "american aid" is a seriously laughable stretch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War


another thing some people do not seem to mention is the UNEF peacekeeping force supposed to stop this sort of thing that basically ran out of the way when the egyptian army moved in...but hey, that is the UN for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

now the US did airlift supplies during the yom kippur war in 1973, but that was not in 1967 or in 1948. and once again the soviets re-armed the egyptians and syrians, but that is not mentioned by some...i wonder why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

since the mid 70's israel uses their own manufactured tanks, small arms, artillery, and get bare airframes from the US which they upgrade. they also make most of thier own ammunition.

http://www.caat.org.uk/information/publications/companies/israel-military-industries.php

again i invite you to show me proof of your claim. until then keep on laughing! laughter is good for you i hear.

 

[Hapless]

Your veteran status (if we can call the Gulf a war) hardly gives you any credibility when you accuse COs of being cowards. Get a clue.

Where did I call any CO a coward? If these people who ran to Canada are CO's, why didn't they apply for CO status? WHy did they join the military in the first place? A CO is opposed to being in the armed forces in the first place. A soldier has no right to pick and choose which war to fight in. My suspicion is that all of these people would run to Canada no matter how "just," the war, therefore they are cowards. Read here for the definition of CO and how to apply:
http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

The first Gulf War wasn't a war? Then why did Stern protest it? I think YOU need to get a clue. I am pretty confident that the fact that, unlike some other people on this board, I actually served in the military in a combat zone renders me most credible when discussing the cowardice of those who run to Canada to avoid living up to their obligation.

And as for you, Stern, the question of whether Bush is a deserter is open for debate, especially in light of the fact that documents have been forged in an attempt to prove he was. So no, he shouldn't be shot.

One or two people fleeing the service will not bring down the military, but should people just be allowed to desert without any repercussions? Eventually, yes, it will destroy discipline and have an extremely adverse effect on the military. Of course, to the, "What if they gave a war and nobody came," crowd, I guess it would be a good thing.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Where did I call any CO a coward? If these people who ran to Canada are CO's, why didn't they apply for CO status? WHy did they join the military in the first place? A CO is opposed to being in the armed forces in the first place. A soldier has no right to pick and choose which war to fight in. My suspicion is that all of these people would run to Canada no matter how "just," the war, therefore they are cowards. Read here for the definition of CO and how to apply:
http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm

The first Gulf War wasn't a war? Then why did Stern protest it? I think YOU need to get a clue. I am pretty confident that the fact that, unlike some other people on this board, I actually served in the military in a combat zone renders me most credible when discussing the cowardice of those who run to Canada to avoid living up to their obligation.

And as for you, Stern, the question of whether Bush is a deserter is open for debate, especially in light of the fact that documents have been forged in an attempt to prove he was. So no, he shouldn't be shot.

One or two people fleeing the service will not bring down the military, but should people just be allowed to desert without any repercussions? Eventually, yes, it will destroy discipline and have an extremely adverse effect on the military. Of course, to the, "What if they gave a war and nobody came," crowd, I guess it would be a good thing.

just think of the contribution all these US deserters could make to the canadian army...

 

[Kangy]

man you just dont have a clue do you?

Ooh, go on then, enlighten me.

 

[CptStern]

this issue is so easily solved ..at least, for the people who say he should be shot ..using that logic George W Bush should be shot as he was a wartime deserter ...I expect an answer from the military people in this thread

 

[Hapless]

this issue is so easily solved ..at least fr the people who say he should be shot ..using that logic George W Bush should be shot as well ...I expect an answer from the military people in this thread

First of all, I never said anyone should be shot. I said that desertion during a time of war is punishable by execution under the UCMJ. Second of all, I gave you your answer.

Now I have a question for you: Would you be willing to give your life to stop a war? If such a scenario presented itself?

 

[CptStern]

18 missing months ..that's considered AWOL Although by your own admission it's desertion because it was during the war.

this is the most likely scenario