US soldier refugee hearing

[Eg.]

lol. at that time of the war they let everybody tht went awol soctt free. it was the last few months and 1/3 of the national guard "deserted" and the gov didnt prosecute any of them

 

[gh0st]

18 missing months ..that's considered AWOL Although by your own admission it's desertion because it was during the war.

this is the most likely scenario

did dan rather tell you that?

 

[Shad0hawK]

Ooh, go on then, enlighten me.

i will just recreate the post you obviously missed. maybe we should start a new thread since this is a bit OT


no problem.

in 1948 the only outside aid went from britain to various arab nations and groups in the form of arms. 4 british planes were shot down in combat by israel flying ironically enough german surplus planes. israel did not recive any aid from the united states. since you seem to think they did, could you list exactly what kind of aid here



president johnson initiated an arms embargo for the entire region in the 67 war although the soviets made massive arms shipments to egypt, syria, and jordan.(i supppose all this help for the arabs from the soviets is somehow irrelevant...)

a few americans served in the haganah in the 48 war, calling this "american aid" is a seriously laughable stretch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War


another thing some people do not seem to mention is the UNEF peacekeeping force supposed to stop this sort of thing that basically ran out of the way when the egyptian army moved in...but hey, that is the UN for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

now the US did airlift supplies during the yom kippur war in 1973, but that was not in 1967 or in 1948. and once again the soviets re-armed the egyptians and syrians, but that is not mentioned by some...i wonder why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

since the mid 70's israel uses their own manufactured tanks, small arms, artillery, and get bare airframes from the US which they upgrade. they also make most of thier own ammunition.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/industry.htm

again i invite you to show me proof of your claim. until then keep on laughing! laughter is good for you i hear.

 

[Shad0hawK]

this issue is so easily solved ..at least, for the people who say he should be shot ..using that logic George W Bush should be shot as he was a wartime deserter ...I expect an answer from the military people in this thread

i was in the USAR from 87-91 1 CAV 489th ENG BN.

i already voiced my opinion, i want him to be in canada as much as he wants to be there.

 

[GiaOmerta]

First of all, I did go to Iraq during the first Gulf War. So none of this Michael Moore "Why don't you go or send your child," BS. Second, it is not the soldier's place to question the legitimacy of any war. A soldier may question an unlawful order given him by a superior, but is not free to say, "I disagree with this whole war, so I'm not going to go." The HUGE difference between these people and Vietnam era people is the Vietnam era people were DRAFTED. Even though I don't agree with the ones who ran to Canada, at least they have that excuse. Todays' U.S. military is all volunteer. It was each soldier's, sailor's, marine's and airman's choice to join the military.

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards. And no, Stern, I'm not uptight. I guess I believe these people are cowards in the same way you would think someone who railed against the war in private, but refuses to protest in public, is a coward. Or maybe you are so advanced as a human being that cowardice, honor, courage, conviction, and other such things are beneath you. I don't know.
Also, desertion during a time of war is punishable by execution under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Desertion during peacetime is not. Desertion during peacetime is defined as being AWOL for more than 30 days.

I salute you for your service to your country.

As you stated:

I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards.

I completely agree. This man was aware of he's vow and he's commitment to the United State Armed Services. Wither or not he disagree's with the war is irrelevant. He signed the contract. He is government property.

 

[gh0st]

yeah hapless, thank you for your service. i missed your post, and i agree 100%.

 

[GiaOmerta]

I salute everyone who has and who is currently 'faithful' serving their country.

 

[Raziaar]

I wouldn't support death for deserting his unit. That is so archaic, at least under these circumstances. If it were another World War, I could understand it... but this is not.

He just shouldn't be allowed back in the country whatsoever, for not supporting it. That's all.

And by the way, not supporting it I mean under his military duties. The reason he joined the military to begin with, to serve his country, not abandon it.

The germans served their country in WWII, despite many of the dishonorable things going on. They may not have agreed with the war, or supported it, but they still sure as hell fought for their country and gave it their all.

 

[Absinthe]

I salute everyone who has and who is currently 'faithful' serving their country.

You're such a proud little patriot, aren't you?

It's really cute.

 

[Absinthe]

The germans served their country in WWII, despite many of the dishonorable things going on. They may not have agreed with the war, or supported it, but they still sure as hell fought for their country and gave it their all.

And considering what their country was doing at that time, perhaps it would have been best if they didn't "give it their all".

 

[Spartan]

Where did I call any CO a coward?

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards.

If these people who ran to Canada are CO's, why didn't they apply for CO status?

A question from his FAQ: 9. Do you believe your CO application was actually lost?

A CO is opposed to being in the armed forces in the first place.

So basically, if your commanding officer told you to rape and mutilate someone (for example), you couldn't say no due to moral and ethical reasons, because you are already in the military?

A soldier has no right to pick and choose which war to fight in.

Yes he does.

The first Gulf War wasn't a war? Then why did Stern protest it? I think YOU need to get a clue.

Not much of a war, no.

I am pretty confident that the fact that, unlike some other people on this board, I actually served in the military in a combat zone renders me most credible when discussing the cowardice of those who run to Canada to avoid living up to their obligation.

It doesn't give you any credibility.

 

[GiaOmerta]

You're such a proud little patriot, aren't you?

No... I'm a proud big patriot.

 

[Eg.]

about number 91, first of all he wanted to be a CO after he joined up, so that whole giving an order had no value. and saying the gulf war wasnt a war because it took a month is terrible. just because it ended in a months, does not mean it gets demoted in value.

 

[HunterSeeker]

The only true heroic death is when you die for something you support. Armys still need to punish deserters though (Death is way too harsh though), especially during wartime. Otherwise the army would probubly not work (you cant have 50% of the army leave when they are needed the most), sometimes that dosent seem like a so bad idea though...

 

[Venmoch]

This is one of the things that majorly annoys me. "I'm in the army but I don't want to fight a war because I'll get sent away and might get killed/I don't think this war is ethical"

Then why did you join the army in the first place. I mean the first thing most people think about when you say army is fighting with guns and on battlefields. You sign up to join and for the period until you can leave you have to take orders from your superiors and if your country goes to war Just or not you still need to go. Why? because you are in the armed forces. They don't pay you to fire guns at base camp. They pay you to fight if they need you. Its the same with any other army.

Its one of the things you have to sign a paper for. Its not like this guy was forced into the army.

He had to choose to go into the army.

 

[Spartan]

and if your country goes to war Just or not you still need to go.

Bullshit. Only an idiot or a coward joins an illegal and unjust war.

 

[Venmoch]

Thing is you don't have that choice when you join the army. Sure you could say "I object" and go through it that way but at the end of the day you signed up for an Armed Force. Therefore you must be aware of what that entails. It isn't a holiday camp with guns. You train purely for that fact that if your country goes to war you'll go and fight for it.

Its what you sign up too. The military hasn't got to the liberal state that most other parts of the world has got to.

I remember a story I heard where someone refused to go to Sunday Service purely because he was a Satanist. He was forced to go to the service. It may be unfair but you sign up for it.

Now I'm not saying this war was just or not. But if you say "I'll fight for my Country!" when you sign up only to go and say "Oh wait, this war sucks, its wrong!" then your not fullfilling your agreement that you signed up with. And this applies to almost any army in the world. What you sign is a legal agreement and I'm having to stand by many of the Vet's here. They don't pay you to train, they pay you to go out and fight a war if need be. Thats the agreement.

How just a war is isn't the point. Its the fact he said "I will fight in war!" and then didn't.

 

[Gray Fox]

US aid to Israel:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

 

[Eg.]

US aid to Israel:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

wrong topic?

 

[Hapless]

As a veteran, particularly one who has served in a foreign war AS I AGREED TO DO when I signed up, I find these people utterly despicable. They are cowards.

I don't believe anyone in this current group are CO's.



A question from his FAQ: 9. Do you believe your CO application was actually lost?

Yeah, sure.



So basically, if your commanding officer told you to rape and mutilate someone (for example), you couldn't say no due to moral and ethical reasons, because you are already in the military?

God knows, that goes on aaaallllllllll the time. Fool.




Yes he does.

O................................K...................



Not much of a war, no.

Riiiiiiigggghhhhhhtttttt.





It doesn't give you any credibility.

:dozey:

6chars

 

[Hapless]

You're such a proud little patriot, aren't you?

It's really cute.

"I'm European, therefore I'm muuuuuccccch smarter and more cultured than any of you bumpkin Americans with your archaic notions of patriotism, honor and the like."

 

[Eg.]

and my opinions count way more than urs. by the way cant u take care of this little mess that i dont want to clean up (U.N)

 

[Absinthe]

"I'm European, therefore I'm muuuuuccccch smarter and more cultured than any of you bumpkin Americans with your archaic notions of patriotism, honor and the like."

I'm American. Fool.

 

[Spartan]

6chars

Uh... and?

I guess I'll have to extract the quotes by hand.

I don't believe anyone in this current group are CO's.

The person we are discussing is a CO.

Yeah, sure.

It's in his FAQ. Look it up yourself.

God knows, that goes on aaaallllllllll the time. Fool.

That's not the point, and you know it.

O............................. ...K...................

What is this even supposed to mean?

Riiiiiiigggghhhhhhtttttt.

Not sure about this, either.

<some smiley>

Yes?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Absinthe, you're no American. You were just born here. It is quite clear where your loyalties are. If you have no respect and thanks for the men who fought, and could have died for you, then you are a larger fool than anybody could have expected.

The person we are discussing is a CO.

You do know he joined the army, correct... How can you object to war if you join the army? Its beyond me how stupid some people are. Was he expecting to play with barbie dolls and hug a few trees?

 

[Hapless]

I'm American. Fool.

Well, then let me amend that to say "I wish I was European, because I'm much smarter than you other bumpkin Americans with your archaic notions of patriotism, honor and the like."

Fool. :E

 

[CptStern]

Absinthe, you're no American. You were just born here. It is quite clear where your loyalties are. If you have no respect and thanks for the men who fought, and could have died for you, then you are a larger fool than anybody could have expected

on the threat of being redundant: you're an idiot ..sorry, you're no patriot

A patriot doesnt just accept what their county says on face value ..a patriot does what's best for his country, if that means standing up against the government because it's doing something morally and ethically wrong then that's what it takes, because a patriot loves his country ..but it is never unconditional ..or else we are but sheep bent to the will of the government...sorry I for one will not be conformist, I will not follow the herd, I will not let my country or your country abuse the rights of the downtrodden under the false mantle of "freedom". I submit that Absinthe is more of a patriot then you'll ever be

 

[Absinthe]

Absinthe, you're no American. You were just born here. It is quite clear where your loyalties are. If you have no respect and thanks for the men who fought, and could have died for you, then you are a larger fool than anybody could have expected.

Spare me your fervent accusations of unpatriotic behavior, seinfeld. My respect lies to those that were dragged into this war, regardless of wether or not they agreed with it. But if they died, it would not have been for me, the people I know, or even my country. We were not threatened by Iraq. That's what makes this a tragedy.
Come to think of it, I don't exactly know why you're accusing me of being disrespectful or thankless. Why did you toss this American flag-wrapped bag of bullshit at me?

And where exactly are my loyalties?

Do they lie with THE TERRORISTS?!

I'm sure you'd just love to believe that.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, then let me amend that to say "I wish I was European, because I'm much smarter than you other bumpkin Americans with your archaic notions of patriotism, honor and the like."

Fool. :E

Well, I do harbor an urge to wear a beret and eat croissants in front of the Eiffel Tower...

 

[seinfeldrules]

Come to think of it, I don't exactly know why you're accusing me of being disrespectful or thankless. Why did you toss this American flag-wrapped bag of bullshit at me?

Giometra merely thanked hapless for serving. You jump all over him. That was disrespectful.

A patriot doesnt just accept what their county says on face value ..a patriot does what's best for his country, if that means standing up against the government because it's doing something morally and ethically wrong then that's what it takes, because a patriot loves his country ..but it is never unconditional ..or else we are but sheep bent to the will of the government...sorry I for one will not be conformist, I will not follow the herd, I will not let my country or your country abuse the rights of the downtrodden under the false mantle of "freedom". I submit that Absinthe is more of a patriot then you'll ever be

I think all soldiers that serve for my army are patriots. They have the ultimate faith and belief in their country. Hopefully you have the same respect for the Canadian military. Disrespecting them and others who thank them is just a cheap shot. There was a time when veterans returned home to loving famlies after Vietnam, and hippies spat on them. It wouldnt suprise me if that is what you would have done. It seems you have more respect for somebody who fights to stay out of a war, rather than people who serve in them.

And where exactly are my loyalties?

I honestly have no idea. They are clearing not with America if you mock somebody for thanking a soldier for his service.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Jeremy Hinzman, a private first class with the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne, who arrived in Toronto (canada) on January 3 with his wife, Nga Nguyen, and their 21-month-old son, Liam. In contrast to Hughey, Hinzman engaged a lengthy process of pleading from within his unit for non-combat duty as a conscientious objector (C.O.). After his request was denied, Hinzman faced orders for Iraq. He and his wife crammed what they could into their Chevy Prizm and headed north, with their son, from Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Hinzman, 25, understood what he was risking: if he wins his case, never being able to visit the U.S. again; if he loses, being deported, going directly to jail with a harsh sentence. Desertion during wartime is a capital offense; though the last execution for a runaway soldier was in 1945, Hinzman worries that the penalty could be revived. "The Bush administration has done so many unprecedented things," he notes. Nonetheless, seeking sanctuary in Canada looked better than any alternative. Hinzman reasons, "I thought of refusing orders and turning myself in [as Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia did last month]. But because of how they had handled my C.O. application, I wasn't sure I would get a fair shake. Anyway, I don't feel I should be incarcerated for following my conscience."


Monday is his refugee hearing. Here's his online petition. He's collected more than 15,000 written signatures and another 8000 online

there are a total of 4 US deserters currently seeking refugee status in Canada

they probably wont get it unless they can prove the US will either execute (havent executed a deserter since 1945) or torture him.

These people need to be imprisoned if not executed for desertation.

 

[Gray Fox]

wrong topic?

I know it's offtopic, but I was responding to a post your pal ShadowHawk made, now just tell me did you miss his post or is it the same as when your country ****s up and you as a true patriot just ignore it.

 

[Absinthe]

Giometra merely thanked hapless for serving. You jump all over him. That was disrespectful.

Disrespectful to him or to the soldiers in Iraq? Think, seinfeld.

In any case, it was only a light jab. It was not aimed at his actual gratitude, but just in the way it came off to me. Perhaps out of place, but there was nothing serious in it's intent. It certainly didn't require you to "jump all over" me.

They have the ultimate faith and belief in their country.

Or they just don't have a choice.

It seems you have more respect for somebody who fights to stay out of a war, rather than people who serve in them.

It depends entirely on the war.

I honestly have no idea. They are clearing not with America if you mock somebody for thanking a soldier for his service.

You have no clue. But if it's such a big issue for you, why don't you send off a personal e-mail to Bush. I'm sure he'd have no problem with barring me from re-entering the country.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Or they just don't have a choice.

Its an all volunteer army bud.

It depends entirely on the war.

So you would respect a soldier more for staying out of Iraq then going in?

I'm sure he'd have no problem with barring me from re-entering the country.

I wouldnt either.

Disrespectful to him or to the soldiers in Iraq? Think, seinfeld.

To both, why should he be mocked for thanking a soldier for his service. How do you think they'd feel. I'm sure they're gracious for his kind words, not your condescending attitude.

In any case, it was only a light jab. It was not aimed at his actual gratitude, but just in the way it came off to me. Perhaps out of place, but there was nothing serious in it's intent. It certainly didn't require you to "jump all over" me.

Maybe you shouldnt mock somebody on this issue, some jokes are understandable, this one was not.

You have no clue.

Isnt that the same thing as "I honestly have no idea".

 

[GiaOmerta]

I salute everyone who has and who is currently 'faithful' serving their country.

I wasnt mocking anyone. Why is everyone so defensive? ****ing pricks.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I wasnt mocking anyone. Why is everyone so defensive? ****ing pricks.

He (absinthe) was mocking you. Nobody is saying it was the other way around.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Alright. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Absinthe]

Its an all volunteer army bud.

But if I already volunteered, I wouldn't have a choice.

So you would respect a soldier more for staying out of Iraq then going in?

Why does it have to be a question of more or less? If he does not enter a war he disagrees with, then good for him for not being a mindless automaton and standing up for what he believes is right. If he goes because he believes it's the right thing to do or because he has no choice, then I still respect him. I still hope that he survives and I still hope that he makes it back uninjured.

This is not some game in which one decision somehow scores you more points than the other. But you certainly treat it as such. Respect is not something you can quantify into a variable.

I wouldnt either.

Then, okay. Write the e-mail already.

You're certainly the embodiment of the American spirit.

To both, why should he be mocked for thanking a soldier for his service. How do you think they'd feel. I'm sure they're gracious for his kind words, not your condescending attitude.

Misinterpretation.

Maybe you shouldnt mock somebody on this issue, some jokes are understandable, this one was not.

I'm sorry that your knees were grazed by something so harmless. I'll try to be more sensitive next time.

Isnt that the same thing as "I honestly have no idea".

If you had no idea, then you wouldn't be able to accuse me of lacking loyalty to the United States.

 

[jverne]

god... YOU DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY UNLESS YOU ARE FULLY WILLING TO CARRY OUT WHATEVER ORDERS ARE GIVEN TO YOU. THE SYSTEM IS OUTSIDE OF YOUR CONTROL AND WHEN YOU ENLIST, YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE TO THESE TERMS. SEE A RECRUITER, AND LOOK AT THE FORMS YOU MUST SIGN.

the entire premise of your theory is just ludicrous, if we had soldiers disobeying orders left and right that would mean more casualties for REAL soldiers. i have no respect for men who join up for the education, waste my tax dollars on their equipment and training, or the tax free money, or the experience, and refuse to fight because they "dont believe in the war." well you know what, tough shit. if he cant handle the heat get his cowardly ass out of my country. canadas got plenty of room for these traitors.

I think that you and GiaOmerta are the biggest pussys around here! Wasting tax money..huh...do you smoke pot or do other illegal activities...if you do you should get executed for that! We have to pay the police to get rid of people like that, you know! I'm happy not to live in a totalitaristic country like the US! I bet that if a canadian and an american were fighting hand-to-hand the canadian would kick the americans ass! Its people like you that want me, to nuke the US to the ground, i'd only feel sorry for the good peole living there! Proof tham most americans are descendents of uncle ****ers and alike, the trash of other!
Most likely i'll get banned for this, but anyway...! I support that man because the Iraqi war is a bunch of BS, but if he dezerted when the US would be under attack, then he should get a bullet in the head...yes!

I find it funny that bush won because of his moral belifes...hehe...51% of americans are retards!

Sorry bout the flame post, but i'm currently in an etnocentric state of mind!


See you in a year or something like that..bye!

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'll try to be more sensitive next time.

Thanks, all I wanted. I dont think that respect for soldiers is a light subject.