US soldier refugee hearing

[qckbeam]

I've read through the thread, and I can't seem to find where absinthe mocked anyone? What am I missing?

 

[Hapless]

You're such a proud little patriot, aren't you?

It's really cute.

Sounds like mocking to me. Of course, it's hard to determine sarcasm in written form....

 

[Spartan]

You do know he joined the army, correct... How can you object to war if you join the army? Its beyond me how stupid some people are. Was he expecting to play with barbie dolls and hug a few trees?

Joining the army doesn't mean that you have to go on every pseudo-legal fool's errand that Bush comes up with.

 

[Raziaar]

Joining the army doesn't mean that you have to go on every pseudo-legal fool's errand that Bush comes up with.

Joining the army means you go where the army sends you. That's all there is to it. If you don't agree with those facts, don't join it to begin with.


There seems to be this preconceived notion that you somehow get to be selective about what you do or you don't do when you join the service.

 

[Spartan]

seems to be this preconceived notion that you somehow get to be selective about what you do or you don't do when you join the service.

There also seems to be a preconceived notion that you have to do anything the army tells you to do.

 

[Raziaar]

There also seems to be a preconceived notion that you have to do anything the army tells you to do.

Well, if you're going to be in their employ, then yes... you do. Unless it goes against the law, and isn't illegal, then yes, you do. Don't give me that 'the war in iraq is illegal' crap either.

The attitude you are taking about it, is that your personal decisions are the only ones that matter. That you only do what you want to do, even if you're hired to do something else. You could break the law, and feel justified because you don't have to do what the law tells you to do or not do.

 

[Spartan]

Unless it goes against the law, and isn't illegal, then yes, you do.

See? That wasn't so hard, was it?

Don't give me that 'the war in iraq is illegal' crap either.

It is illegal and unethical.

The attitude you are taking about it, is that your personal decisions are the only ones that matter. That you only do what you want to do, even if you're hired to do something else.

My attitude is that immoral, unethical and illegal orders need not be followed. Obviously the US military does things differently, eh?

You could break the law, and feel justified because you don't have to do what the law tells you to do or not do.

What the **** are you talking about?

 

[Hapless]

I would dearly love for you to explain, in rational terms, how in the hell you figure the Iraq war is illegal? Whether it is ill-advised is debatable. I fail to see any reasonable, rational argument that it is illegal. Keep in mind I said REASONABLE and RATIONAL.

A soldier in the U.S. Military is duty bound to obey lawful orders. An unlawful order would be to, say, "Shoot those babies over there," or, "Alright, men, we're going to tie up all the men in this village and force them to watch as we rape the women." A soldier is not only required under the UCMJ to disobey the order, but to do whatever is possible to prevent it from being carried out. It is also a crime to compell a soldier to obey an unlawful order. That is why the Abu Ghraib perps cannot successfully use the "I was only following orders," defense, because they were required NOT to follow them. If, in fact, they were given orders to do what they did, that is.

A soldier cannot disobey a lawful order just because of their political belief that the order is unlawful. This is similar to the law, in my state at least, which prohibits people from resisting an unlawful arrest. This is not, as it would seem, an encouragement to police officers to effect unlawful arrests, but rather deters people from resisting any arrest and using the defense, "I thought the arrest was unlawful because I belong to the Michigan Militia and am not beholden to your laws," or some such nonsense.

An individual soldier is not empowered to decide when or where he/she goes, and this is a right he/she lays aside when they join up. If a soldier refuses to participate in a particular war because they think the war is unjustified, illegal, unethical, etc., they are refusing for political reasons which precludes conscientious objector status. Every solider swears an oath to obey the orders of the President and his/her superior officers. I swore that same oath. It is not for the soldier to decide whether the orders given them are unlawful, unless the orders are plainly unlawful on their face, e.g. murdering(not killing), raping, pillaging, and what-not. Now, I know some of you may say, "Well that's exactly what the U.S. is doing in Iraq," but again, give me a RATIONAL, REASONABLE argument supporting that assertion. Not some propaganda from ACT or MoveON, or some other group.

 

[Raziaar]

I would dearly love for you to explain, in rational terms, how in the hell you figure the Iraq war is illegal? Whether it is ill-advised is debatable. I fail to see any reasonable, rational argument that it is illegal. Keep in mind I said REASONABLE and RATIONAL.

A soldier in the U.S. Military is duty bound to obey lawful orders. An unlawful order would be to, say, "Shoot those babies over there," or, "Alright, men, we're going to tie up all the men in this village and force them to watch as we rape the women." A soldier is not only required under the UCMJ to disobey the order, but to do whatever is possible to prevent it from being carried out. It is also a crime to compell a soldier to obey an unlawful order. That is why the Abu Ghraib perps cannot successfully use the "I was only following orders," defense, because they were required NOT to follow them. If, in fact, they were given orders to do what they did, that is.

A soldier cannot disobey a lawful order just because of their political belief that the order is unlawful. This is similar to the law, in my state at least, which prohibits people from resisting an unlawful arrest. This is not, as it would seem, an encouragement to police officers to effect unlawful arrests, but rather deters people from resisting any arrest and using the defense, "I thought the arrest was unlawful because I belong to the Michigan Militia and am not beholden to your laws," or some such nonsense.

An individual soldier is not empowered to decide when or where he/she goes, and this is a right he/she lays aside when they join up. If a soldier refuses to participate in a particular war because they think the war is unjustified, illegal, unethical, etc., they are refusing for political reasons which precludes conscientious objector status. Every solider swears an oath to obey the orders of the President and his/her superior officers. I swore that same oath. It is not for the soldier to decide whether the orders given them are unlawful, unless the orders are plainly unlawful on their face, e.g. murdering(not killing), raping, pillaging, and what-not. Now, I know some of you may say, "Well that's exactly what the U.S. is doing in Iraq," but again, give me a RATIONAL, REASONABLE argument supporting that assertion. Not some propaganda from ACT or MoveON, or some other group.

You said it MUCH better than I could have.

 

[Spartan]

I would dearly love for you to explain, in rational terms, how in the hell you figure the Iraq war is illegal?

I'd like you to explain why Iraq was invaded, if not for the oil.

If a soldier refuses to participate in a particular war because they think the war is unjustified, illegal, unethical, etc., they are refusing for political reasons which precludes conscientious objector status.

They have the moral right to refuse, period. You can't deny it.

 

[Hapless]

I'd like you to explain why Iraq was invaded, if not for the oil.



They have the moral right to refuse, period. You can't deny it.

Yes, I can deny it, and I do deny it. And I'm still waiting for that REAONABLE, RATIONAL explanation. Hell, I'd even settle for just coherent.

 

[Eg.]

if we wanted oil y didnt we invade saudi arabia then?

 

[Gray Fox]

1. Why did you join the Army if you never wanted to fight?

I believe that you would have a hard time finding soldiers who, if they spoke honestly and in the absence of fellow soldiers to impress, would tell you that they actually yearn to fight. Granted, there are exceptions to this, but the Army is composed mostly of people who want to make a better life for themselves. The Army is aware of this and is very savvy in marketing it. In exchange for your innocence and morality, the Army provides the most socialistic environment available in the world. Literally everything about a soldier's life is subsidized.

Perhaps I have a cynical view of human nature, but if one is guaranteed almost total security in their life they will take it, even if they have to exchange their autonomy. Read Erich Fromm's book Escape From Freedom, where he takes nearly 300 pages to expound upon what I have written above. This why totalitarian societies are able to emerge with the full knowledge of the citizenry involved. Most people are more than willing to sacrifice their freedom for security and piece of mind. When I enlisted in the Army, I won't deny that I was thinking in a pragmatic manner. However, just because I enlisted, I didn't abdicate my ability to evolve intellectually and morally, which I did as result of the circumstances I found myself involved in.

Though I'm a socialist pussie, I do believe that he states here that he joined it not out of the conviction to fight for freedom of his country but because of economical, so I his reasons that he refuses to go becasue he doesn't believe in the cause are irrelevant , he should go to Iraq or be jailed.
Thats my opinion on this, Stern I'll be happy if you can convince me otherwise.

BTW I think the system where the government thas made it so that poor poeple have to join the army to be able to have a stable income and life is discusting, but it is the peoples own faulth, they are the one that choose their political representatives/government.

 

[seinfeldrules]

BTW I think the system where the government thas made it so that poor poeple have to join the army to be able to have a stable income and life is discusting, but it is the peoples own faulth, they are the one that choose their political representatives/government.

I know plenty of 'poor' people who are not joining the army, and whose fathers are not in the army. Actually, I cant think of any in which this is the case.

 

[Gray Fox]

Yup and let me guess they also stay poor. Ah how I love our communist Dutch scociety, in the US I would have to beg on the street or I would be in Iraq now.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yup and let me guess they also stay poor. Ah how I love our communist Dutch scociety, in the US I would have to beg on the street or I would be in Iraq now.

Actually, most of their children do very well in school, and many I know are looking at schools such as Emerson and Boston University.

 

[Gray Fox]

Oh k, my bad then I'll take your word for it.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I've read through the thread, and I can't seem to find where absinthe mocked anyone? What am I missing?

Originally Posted by Absinthe
You're such a proud little patriot, aren't you?

It's really cute.

Found.

 

[Hapless]

Yup and let me guess they also stay poor. Ah how I love our communist Dutch scociety, in the US I would have to beg on the street or I would be in Iraq now.

So you're saying you have to depend on your government for your survival? Just like those in the military do? Interesting.

 

[Gray Fox]

Doh, everybody depends more or less on their government for survival, who do you think provides collective goods like the police, or defense. It's just that in countries that have better social laws it's much easier to survive when you have a low income. Just look at it this way, here you don't have to go fight in Iraq to enjoy the same social benefits as you folks in the US that have joined the Army.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Just look at it this way, here you don't have to go fight in Iraq to enjoy the same social benefits as you folks in the US that have joined the Army.

Its not required in the US either bud. Dont comment on stuff you are clueless on. I bet you have never even traveled to the US, yet you talk like an expert.

 

[Hapless]

Doh, everybody depends more or less on their government for survival, who do you think provides collective goods like the police, or defense. It's just that in countries that have better social laws it's much easier to survive when you have a low income. Just look at it this way, here you don't have to go fight in Iraq to enjoy the same social benefits as you folks in the US that have joined the Army.

I joined the Army for a few reasons. College money was one, and straightening my ass out was another. I did not join so I could become permanently attached to the government tit. I've gone from a skinny, long-haired guitar-playing snot-nosed punk with a bleak future to being able to afford two 2004 cars, a house, more guitars and related equipment, and almost every PC game that's come out in recent years :dozey: All because I elected to join the military rather than lay around my parent's house until I was 30. Tell me where the incentive is in your "countries that have better social laws" to rise above one's circumstances and make something of yourself?

 

[CptStern]

I joined the Army for a few reasons. College money was one, and straightening my ass out was another. I did not join so I could become permanently attached to the government tit. I've gone from a skinny, long-haired guitar-playing snot-nosed punk with a bleak future to being able to afford two 2004 cars, a house, more guitars and related equipment, and almost every PC game that's come out in recent years :dozey: All because I elected to join the military rather than lay around my parent's house until I was 30. Tell me where the incentive is in your "countries that have better social laws" to rise above one's circumstances and make something of yourself?

hmmm you're not saying that being in the military is the only path to contributing to society? surely you jest

 

[gh0st]

hmmm you're not saying that being in the military is the only path to contributing to society? surely you jest

maybe it was an.. hmm whats the word... example? just because you have no sense of duty to ones country doesnt mean he doesnt.

 

[jverne]

I joined the Army for a few reasons. College money was one, and straightening my ass out was another. I did not join so I could become permanently attached to the government tit. I've gone from a skinny, long-haired guitar-playing snot-nosed punk with a bleak future to being able to afford two 2004 cars, a house, more guitars and related equipment, and almost every PC game that's come out in recent years :dozey: All because I elected to join the military rather than lay around my parent's house until I was 30. Tell me where the incentive is in your "countries that have better social laws" to rise above one's circumstances and make something of yourself?

shit...the pay is that good in the US army????

 

[Hapless]

hmmm you're not saying that being in the military is the only path to contributing to society? surely you jest

No, but it was the best choice for me, all things considered. My grades in high school weren't good enough to get a scholarship (not doing homework kinda affects your grades :cheese,, my parents were divorced and I lived with my dad, who wasn't making much money, and I was kinda excited about the prospect of being a soldier. I stayed in for my 3 year enlistment, because I found that being basically government property wasn't something I enjoyed too much. But it definitely straightened me out, and for that I'm thankful.

 

[gh0st]

shit...the pay is that good in the US army????

tax free not only that, you dont have to pay for utilities or food. everythings provided for you, you just fight and get paid. so you can save that shiz up. not that its great or anything.

 

[Hapless]

shit...the pay is that good in the US army????

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllll No!!!! I'm a cop now, making pretty good money, but I'm also working a side job.

 

[Hapless]

tax free not only that, you dont have to pay for utilities or food. everythings provided for you, you just fight and get paid.

Only if you are serving in a combat zone. (the no tax thing, I mean)

 

[gh0st]

what dept hapless?

Only if you are serving in a combat zone. (the no tax thing, I mean)

well isnt that what iraq is.

 

[jverne]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllll No!!!! I'm a cop now, making pretty good money, but I'm also working a side job.

how much you get?

 

[Hapless]

With overtime, side job and other off-duty stuff, roughly 70 a year before taxes. Hopefully that will go up very shortly if I make detective or sergeant in the next few months.


And ghost, a dept in a central illinois city with a high crime rate. You may have seen us on all the news channels back in 99 when Jesse Jackson was here stirring up trouble over some kids getting expelled from school over a brawl at a football game.

 

[gh0st]

what did you major in college? i only ask because this is something i want to do (its related fields too) after i'm done with the military.

 

[jverne]

With overtime, side job and other off-duty stuff, roughly 70 a year before taxes. Hopefully that will go up very shortly if I make detective or sergeant in the next few months.


And ghost, a dept in a central illinois city with a high crime rate. You may have seen us on all the news channels back in 99 when Jesse Jackson was here stirring up trouble over some kids getting expelled from school over a brawl at a football game.

sorry, how much is in euro? don't know how much is a dollar worth now!

 

[Hapless]

law enforcement

 

[Hapless]

sorry, how much is in euro? don't know how much is a dollar worth now!

No clue, what's a euro??





j/k


at least you didn't say how much is that in francs......



That's a joke Stern, chill. It's ok to laugh.

 

[CptStern]

not at the expense of others

 

[Eg.]

well, i would rather all possible terrorists be tortured in this was so that i can sleep with the knowledge that im being kept safe.

 

[CptStern]

well, i would rather all possible terrorists be tortured in this was so that i can sleep with the knowledge that im being kept safe.

and then the sugar plum fairy came out to play!! tra-la-la

so many of you cant make the connection that the US' foreign policy led to 9/11, just as the war in iraq will lead to many 9/11's for generations to come.


btw Eg ...if they're torturing prisoners and then releasing them how is that combating terrorism? if they're terrorists why are they letting them go? or are they just innocent men caught up in the US dragnet who are then tortured and released to spread the word that this is how prisoners are treated? to some muslims these humiliations are worse than death. I hope you sleep at night knowing you're responsible for dispicable acts of barbarism

it's the freaking 21st century yet the most "enlightened" country in the world is a barbaric cesspool of misplaced morality fueled by a draconian foreign policy

 

[seinfeldrules]

it's the freaking 21st century yet the most "enlightened" country in the world is a barbaric cesspool of misplaced morality fueled by a draconian foreign policy

Yes, everybody you disagrees with you is obviously a moron driven by God to vote for Bush