Virginia Tech Shooting

[DiSTuRbEd]

Keep the gun talk out of this, christ. Banning people from legally having them won't stop people from getting them another way, don't even go there.

RIP to all the students killed at VT.

 

[repiV]

And repiV, I never said that the society didn't have any blame and that it's all the guns' fault, but you're sure as hell making it a lot easier.

I simply don't believe in banning things.
As I said before, all it would have taken to prevent this tragedy would be to allow or require staff to carry handguns. It is nothing more than political correctness and hysteria that is responsible for them not being allowed to - there is no rational reason to bar them from carrying, and we witness the inevitable result today.

In the US, everyone has the right to defend themselves and their property. Good people die when that right is not exercised or not allowed (in schools, for example).
In the UK, practically anything can be construed as an offensive weapon, and carrying one of those is a serious offence. Pepper spray is highly illegal, as are batons, stun guns, tasers...if you have any of these things on you, the assumption is that you intended to use it in an act of aggression. Nothing to stop criminals carrying knives around, but being prepared to defend yourself can carry a serious penalty.

I know which situation I prefer.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Yeah I don't like being unable to defend myself in the UK. Either that or break the law.

 

[CptStern]

I don't agree with your conclusion. A bad society always blames its tools.
Guns are as readily available in Switzerland as they are in the USA, go and look at their crime stats.

misleading info leading to an inaccurate conclusion:

Switzerland is often referred to as a country with high numbers of firearms in circulation, but a low firearm-related homicide rate. In fact, the number of firearms in Switzerland is comparable to other countries, and claims of a low firearm-homicide rate are moderated by a high firearm-suicide rate.

Since the origins of the Swiss Confederation in 1291, it has been the duty of every male Swiss citizen to be armed and to serve in the militia. After basic training, each soldier receives a military firearm and ammunition to keep at home, to facilitate rapid mobilisation of the armed forces. The ammunition is received in a sealed box, which may be opened only in a warlike emergency.

Despite claims that Switzerland is one of the most armed countries in the world, only 27% of Swiss households have firearms, 60% of which are military weapons. This figure is comparable to Canada, Finland and Norway, and is a consequence of the high proportion of foreigners (18%) and the many female-headed and single person households in Switzerland. In short, despite having a militia, firearm ownership rates in Switzerland are analogous to other countries.

Although firearm numbers in Switzerland are similar to other countries, its gun death rate is high, a consequence of its elevated suicide rate.

According to Swiss criminologist, Martin Killias, of the Universit? de Lausanne, many suicide candidates in Switzerland turn to the government provided ammunition in the sealed box, as the prohibition to open it is an insufficient deterrent, confirming that the more accessible firearms are, the more they are used to kill, either in homicides or suicides.

- those who serve in the military(males) are required to have guns
- low murder rate yes but high suicide rate
- having ammo for military weapons is illegal, 60% of the guns in gun owning households are military weapons
- only 27% of households have firearms compared to 38% in the US (48% of those have 4 or more guns)

http://www.gca.org.za/facts/briefs/10switzerland.htm
http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/13/1/15


oh and you cant talk about this sortof tragedy without talking about gun control

 

[Combine Hybrid]

The suspect obviously didn't have a hand gun, or did he carry about 2 magazines with him? If you can shoot more than 50 people with one pistol, I guarantee that you won't be able to can shoot them all. He must have carried some kind of SMG concealed to his pocket or something.

 

[CyberPitz]

Yeah, my boss is running around talking about it...yehaw.

He just went out on a tangent about the racial shit thats gonna happen.

 

[MiccyNarc]

The suspect obviously didn't have a hand gun, or did he carry about 2 magazines with him? If you can shoot more than 50 people with one pistol, I guarantee that you won't be able to can shoot them all. He must have carried some kind of SMG concealed to his pocket or something.

2 9mm guns. Magazines usually hold 9 bullets, so 18, reload, 36, reload, 54.

 

[PvtRyan]

Brother of a SA goon who was in a class the shooter came in:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...432530&perpage=40&pagenumber=19#post326153336

 

[Link]

yes because only criminals with long rap sheets commit mass murder ..no one has ever gone on a shooting spree who wasnt a criminal to begin with ..oh and saying that making guns illegal will just take away from law abiding citizens is just wishful thinking propegated by the gun industry (fear is a great motivator) ..it seems to have worked in pretty much every country that has some sort of restriction, why couldnt it work in the US?



yet there's far less firearm related murders in london than any other comparable american city ..hmmm I wonder why? oh in most of these mass murder cases the perp got his guns legally



isnt that already the reality in your neck of the woods? are people dying in droves because they are unable to defend themselves against gun weilding maniacs? oh and a good percentage of guns used in crime are stolen from legit owners ..so if they were to completely ban all guns sooner or later access to guns would pretty much dry up as only the most hardened criminals would be able to get them

oh this always comes up when there's a mass murder because of obvious reasons ..if he didnt have access to guns 23 people would still be alive

Ok, I'm not gonna sit here and quote individual sections of posts and pick holes in it, that sort of thing leads to infinatly long posts and everyone getting nowhere fast.

I'm also not going to say that making guns illegal will not reduce gun crime, of course it will. But bear in mind that most gun crime does not end up with someone shot or dead. Remember, gun crime is a crime where the criminal had a gun (armed robbery for example does not require anyone to get shot to become a stat). Also, as gun crime has gone down in the UK, knife crime has shot up, so we do end up eventually with "Board with a nail in it robberys" stats.

However, given the choise, I would rather have the increased risk of a criminal being armed, but be allowed to carry myself, than having to stand and die defensless if a armed criminal does show up. You may well differ, but thats my opinion.

 

[arial]

Jack Thompson was just on FOX News and he's blaming games for this shooting already and even mention counter-strike

 

[Tyguy]

"The only reason for such a horrible crime is the ease of gaming since the release of valves content distribution program, steam"

 

[repiV]

misleading info leading to an inaccurate conclusion:



- those who serve in the military(males) are required to have guns
- low murder rate yes but high suicide rate
- having ammo for military weapons is illegal, 60% of the guns in gun owning households are military weapons
- only 27% of households have firearms compared to 38% in the US (48% of those have 4 or more guns)

http://www.gca.org.za/facts/briefs/10switzerland.htm
http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/13/1/15


oh and you cant talk about this sortof tragedy without talking about gun control

Yet other countries you mentioned have similar gun ownership rates to Switzerland, and frankly 27% compared to 39% means jack shit compared to the difference in crime rates.
I would expect a gun crime epidemic in Canada as compared to the UK, where near as damnit 0% of households own guns. Apparently, not so.

 

[Ennui]

Brother of a SA goon who was in a class the shooter came in:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...432530&perpage=40&pagenumber=19#post326153336

Aim convo with my brother:

ME (1:08:03 PM): so he came into your class?
Bro(1:08:08 PM): yeah
Bro(1:08:17 PM): i didnt think there was any way id live
Bro(1:08:52 PM): he finally left and me and the one other guy that wasnt shot ran to the door and held it shut
Bro(1:09:04 PM): and he tried to come back in and was shooting through the door
me(1:09:27 PM): holy poo poo
me(1:09:48 PM): what kind of gun was it
Bro(1:09:55 PM): pistol
Me(1:09:52 PM): and did he line people up
Bro(1:10:08 PM): no just shooting at people on the ground

More from my bro:

me(1:11:34 PM): do you think it was random
bro(1:12:57 PM): i dont know
Me(1:14:03 PM): so what did you do then
bro(1:14:21 PM): i just started helping people that were bleeding
Me(1:14:39 PM): my god
Me(1:17:17 PM): and then what
Me(1:17:25 PM): sorry if you dont want to talk about it
Me(1:17:33 PM): everyone wants to know what happened
bro(1:18:15 PM): its fine
Me(1:18:40 PM): so did the cops arrive quickly or did you call them or what
bro(1:19:08 PM): yeah
bro(1:19:38 PM): we called

jesus christ

 

[CptStern]

Ok, I'm not gonna sit here and quote individual sections of posts and pick holes in it, that sort of thing leads to infinatly long posts and everyone getting nowhere fast.

ok I'll do it for you

I'm also not going to say that making guns illegal will not reduce gun crime, of course it will. But bear in mind that most gun crime does not end up with someone shot or dead. Remember, gun crime is a crime where the criminal had a gun (armed robbery for example does not require anyone to get shot to become a stat). Also, as gun crime has gone down in the UK, knife crime has shot up, so we do end up eventually with "Board with a nail in it robberys" stats.

However, given the choise, I would rather have the increased risk of a criminal being armed, but be allowed to carry myself, than having to stand and die defensless if a armed criminal does show up. You may well differ, but thats my opinion.

but wouldnt that eventually lead to the current situation facing the US? there's between 238 million and 276 million firearms in the US ..almost one for every man woman and child in the US

oh and the number of crimes committed where a gun was involved is about 500,000 incidents a year ..but that includes things like rape, domestic violence

oh and when you say:

I would rather have the increased risk of a criminal being armed, but be allowed to carry myself, than having to stand and die defensless if a armed criminal does show up.

do you mean in your home or on the street ..if you mean home well the chances are greater that you are killed by someone you know than a complete stranger ..having an unlocked weapon at home only facilitates that ..if you meant on the street well then that's concealed weapon laws meaning pretty much anyone can be armed ..the potential criminal, the guy you just cut off, the school bus driver who mumbles too himself a little too often etc etc ..seems like in no time you'd breed citizens who so fear for their lives that it might make them a little trigger happy ..generally, lethal weapons and the paranoid doesnt mix well

 

[Baserape>]

jesus christ

How can I help you?


:sniper:

 

[PvtRyan]

jesus christ

The guy on tv:
http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??g=35b980c9-423d-4aba-8092-1b2919150b5b&f=00&fg=copy

 

[Geogaddi]

Wow, that's a lot of people. Apparently he was either a lot more competent than most rampagers or the school's security/the police fail at responding.

Also, friend's mom told him that the guy was dressed as a Half Life character or something like that? Eh?

 

[PvtRyan]

Wow, that's a lot of people. Apparently he was either a lot more competent than most rampagers or the school's security/the police fail at responding.

Also, friend's mom told him that the guy was dressed as a Half Life character or something like that? Eh?

Like... a HEV suit? But good to see that sensationalist bullshit is already spreading..

If there is any god out there listening, please make the studios of Fox News burn down to the ground. Preferably while Jack Thompson is still there. Amen.

 

[Solaris]

Let's see, in the area where I live, in the past 2 months we've had 3 people shot in 3 separate incidents. Guess which area has fewer gun regulations, mine or yours?

The difference between the UK and US is that in the UK, only criminals have guns. And that's a great idea.

That's not true, whilst the press tell us how easy it is to get a gun, the fact remains that most criminals have never touched a gun. That's why less people get killed here, it's harder to do so.

 

[Ennui]

WBC to Preach at Funerals of Virginia Tech Dead

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

The LORD God Almighty is your terror, and you refuse to acknowledge Him. He has appointed over you terror (Lev. 26:16). We keep telling you how this is going to get worse and worse for you, and you keep trying to shut us up with new laws and lame government action. You might as well accept the fact that as long as we draw breath, we will use that breath to preach to you. Our prophecies are true. Your children are dying in the streets of Iraq, the mountains of Afghanistan, and the hallways of your own schools. You have no one to blame but yourselves.

****heads... i hate those people

quote:

-----Original Message-----
From: X [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Mon 4/16/2007 2:01 PM
To: [email protected];
[email protected]
Subject: RE: VT shootings

Guys,

Yes, I responded to assist with the shootings. Thanks to an overwhelming number of other responders, I didn't treat any of the patients. However, I think I have a clearer version of the story than what has been released on the news. I'm not sure on the total body count though. While the news is currently reporting 22, I've heard as many as 40. As far as those injured, I have no idea. I do know that Montgomer Regional and NRV had to go on diversion because they were overwhelmed by numbers of patients. Approximately 7 of the more critical patients were transported to Roanoke Memorial and Lewis-Gale. The shooter is among those dead. To the best of my understanding (from first-hand accounts) this all started with an ex-boyfriend finding his girlfriend in bed with another guy. He then shot them, killing the guy immediately and the girl died at RMH. The shooter then went to Norris hall and entered a classroom opening fire. This does hit close to home on a number of levels. Everything from the fact that we all lived in that dorm to classes that we took in Norris Hall. It's still hard for me to believe that something so tragic occured. It makes last August's events with Morva look like child's-play.

X

from anandtech forums

 

[Pulse]

Link to Jack Thompson's comments?

 

[repiV]

That's not true, whilst the press tell us how easy it is to get a gun, the fact remains that most criminals have never touched a gun. That's why less people get killed here, it's harder to do so.

Explain, then, why the safest towns in America are those that legally require all capable adult citizens to own weapons? And the most dangerous cities are those with the most anti-gun legislation?
Also explain why Canada doesn't have 27 times more gun crime than the UK?

And I'd be very interested to know how someone who claims that personal freedom is at the very core of their political beliefs can be so blindly in support of a policy that removes a very fundamental personal freedom.

 

[PvtRyan]

Explain, then, why the safest towns in America are those that legally require all capable adult citizens to own weapons? And the most dangerous cities are those with the most anti-gun legislation?
Also explain why Canada doesn't have 27 times more gun crime than the UK?

What makes you think there's any causality? Those towns are safer because generally towns have relatively less crime. Those cities are more dangerous becacuse cities generally have high crime rates.

 

[repiV]

What makes you think there's any causality? Those towns are safer because generally towns have relatively less crime. Those cities are more dangerous becacuse cities generally have high crime rates.

Ok, why are those towns much safer than equivalent sized towns with no such laws, and why are those cities more dangerous than equivalent sized cities with no such laws?

I really thought that would have been completely obvious.

 

[Pulse]

For all those debating firearms ownership, click here.

 

[Ennui]

Thanks Pulse... honestly guys this is really not the thread to be debating gun control

 

[Solaris]

This is a very important place to debate gun control, it's at the core of what happened.

Repriv, I agree with you, anti-gun legislation in America is idiotic, that means the only people who would have guns is criminals. Thankfully, in the UK, criminals rarely use guns and so we don't need them to defend ourselves with.

 

[repiV]

Yeah I don't like being unable to defend myself in the UK. Either that or break the law.

It reeks of authoritarianism. The gun control aspect is only a very minor aspect of it, the very fact that in this country you are presumed guilty of a crime for carrying even a swiss army knife is beyond belief.
We are treated like ****ing kids by this pompous government that assumes the responsibility for defending us as innocent citizens, but is completely incapable of delivering on that self-assumed responsibility. It disgusts me, on both an ethical and practical level.

 

[CptStern]

Yet other countries you mentioned have similar gun ownership rates to Switzerland, and frankly 27% compared to 39% means jack shit compared to the difference in crime rates.

yes well petty crime like jaywalking shouldnt figure into this ..if you're going to judge then judge like against like if you're look at gun related crimes:

lets take child homicide:

as you can see switzerland and the US are not equal

I would expect a gun crime epidemic in Canada as compared to the UK, where near as damnit 0% of households own guns. Apparently, not so.

the gun related homicide rate is lower in toronto to say London ..1.1 and 1.7 respectively ..there's also half the number of guns in canada that there is in the UK ..1.9 million and 4 million respectively ..there are 30 million canadians and 60 million people in the UK ..so we're pretty much even in all counts ...btw:

Most Canadian weapons are rifles or shotguns owned by rural property owners, hunters and target shooters, and are less likely to be used in crimes.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Statsrevjan102003FINAL.PDF
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article310182.ece
http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm




but in respect to the victems I'll leave the rest of you to debate the merit of gun control

 

[Pulse]

This is a very important place to debate gun control, it's at the core of what happened.

Repriv, I agree with you, anti-gun legislation in America is idiotic, that means the only people who would have guns is criminals. Thankfully, in the UK, criminals rarely use guns and so we don't need them to defend ourselves with.

Whilst legislation is ultimately a part of the cause of this event, it is not relevant to the topic in question. All of these unnecessary quote wars are just clogging the thread up, we are still trying to ascertain what exactly happened, so until the cold hard facts are realised save your politics for the politics forum.

 

[repiV]

This is a very important place to debate gun control, it's at the core of what happened.

Repriv, I agree with you, anti-gun legislation in America is idiotic, that means the only people who would have guns is criminals. Thankfully, in the UK, criminals rarely use guns and so we don't need them to defend ourselves with.

That's a much more rational point of view.
I agree, we don't need guns to defend ourselves here. For me, it's more of an ethical issue.
I would, however, be quite content in being able to carry a stun gun, baton, combat knife or similar for my own protection. I am not even allowed that right, and then it becomes a real issue.
And where do you draw the line? Replica weaponry came very close to being completely banned last year, which would have destroyed the sport and industry of airsoft amongst many other pastimes for no good reason at all. A sport I and many other responsible, law-abiding citizens enjoy.
I was so furious about that - and about how they tirelessly tried to push through their piece of legislation that they KNEW would have no positive effect so they can show a gun-phobic public how many "dangerous replicas" they took off the streets. This government loves to oppress minorities.

 

[repiV]

yes well petty crime like jaywalking shouldnt figure into this ..if you're going to judge then judge like against like if you're look at gun related crimes:

lets take child homicide:

as you can see switzerland and the US are not equal

Yes, the crime rates are not equal - the amount of gun crime, respectively, is way off compared to the percentage of households that own guns. As I said, a bad society always blames its tools.

the gun related homicide rate is lower in toronto to say London ..1.1 and 1.7 respectively ..there's also half the number of guns in canada that there is in the UK ..1.9 million and 4 million respectively ..there are 30 million canadians and 60 million people in the UK ..so we're pretty much even in all counts ...btw:

The only guns that private citizens can legally own in this country are shotguns, for farming etc. use which require a license. Nobody in somewhere like London owns a gun legally - which again just supports my point that despite there being shitloads more guns in Toronto than London, London has a higher gun crime rate.
Because it's a cultural issue, and the UK is a much more violent and dysfunctional society than Canada. For many reasons irrelevant to the topic at hand.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Statsrevjan102003FINAL.PDF
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article310182.ece
http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm




but in respect to the victems I'll leave the rest of you to debate the merit of gun control

They banned private ownership of handguns in 1997, and what happened? Gun crime went through the roof.

 

[Sebastian]

That's a much more rational point of view.
I agree, we don't need guns to defend ourselves here. For me, it's more of an ethical issue.
I would, however, be quite content in being able to carry a stun gun, baton, combat knife or similar for my own protection. I am not even allowed that right, and then it becomes a real issue.
And where do you draw the line? Replica weaponry came very close to being completely banned last year, which would have destroyed the sport and industry of airsoft amongst many other pastimes for no good reason at all. A sport I and many other responsible, law-abiding citizens enjoy.
I was so furious about that - and about how they tirelessly tried to push through their piece of legislation that they KNEW would have no positive effect so they can show a gun-phobic public how many "dangerous replicas" they took off the streets. This government loves to oppress minorities.

Take away the guns and the government has complete control over its citizens. I understand that London is putting in cameras that bark orders at you if your behavior is abnormal. If I lived in that god forsaken city, I would catch the next plane to anywhere.

 

[Solaris]

That's a much more rational point of view.
I agree, we don't need guns to defend ourselves here. For me, it's more of an ethical issue.
I would, however, be quite content in being able to carry a stun gun, baton, combat knife or similar for my own protection. I am not even allowed that right, and then it becomes a real issue.
And where do you draw the line? Replica weaponry came very close to being completely banned last year, which would have destroyed the sport and industry of airsoft amongst many other pastimes for no good reason at all. A sport I and many other responsible, law-abiding citizens enjoy.
I was so furious about that - and about how they tirelessly tried to push through their piece of legislation that they KNEW would have no positive effect so they can show a gun-phobic public how many "dangerous replicas" they took off the streets. This government loves to oppress minorities.

I agree, the violent crimes reduction bill to ban replica weaponry was absurd. Replica weapons never hurt anyone.

Perhaps knives should be legalized, it'd definitely not uncommon for criminals to use them. I'm just worried it might escalate fist fights into murders. Chavs are always trying to pick fights, I've known for them to carry knives, but I don't think most do, the though of chavs roaming the streets with knives is a pretty terrifying thought though. The way many British streets are at the moment, the police have failed to protect us, so we should be allowed to protect ourselves.

Perhaps only allow persons over 25 to carry knives might be a better idea.

 

[repiV]

Take away the guns and the government has complete control over its citizens. I understand that London is putting in cameras that bark orders at you if your behavior is abnormal. If I lived in that god forsaken city, I would catch the next plane to anywhere.

London isn't. Numerous other towns and cities around the country are trialing them, though.
Hopefully, this brand of New Labour authoritarianism and big government will be merely a passing phase. Otherwise, I will catch the next plane to anywhere.

 

[Vegeta897]

The moment I heard about this I could almost hear Stern yapping about America and gun control before I even got home.

Shut the **** up. "You can't talk about this topic without talking about gun control" Shut the hell up. It's seriously like you wait for days like these to happen so you can burst in and yell "SEE EVERYONE I TOLD YOU SEE!!"

:| :| :|

This is absolutely tragic, families and friends must be devastated.

 

[Solaris]

The moment I heard about this I could almost hear Stern yapping about America and gun control before I even got home.

Shut the **** up. "You can't talk about this topic without talking about gun control" Shut the hell up. It's seriously like you wait for days like these to happen so you can burst in and yell "SEE EVERYONE I TOLD YOU SEE!!"

:| :| :|

This is absolutely tragic, families and friends must be devastated.

It's an important issue.

When it's soldiers killed in Iraq we discuss the Iraq war, the same applies here.

When you have 30+ students shot dead in a school, and such an event happens every few years, you have a problem. It's extremely important to identify what that problem is and how it can be solved or kids will keep on dying.

 

[arial]

Link to Jack Thompson's comments?

I heard live on the news. He was on the phone talking about how most in shooting the shooter played violent video games like "Counter-Strike Half-Life" is what he said. I'm sure it will show up here on the internet somewhere.

 

[Vegeta897]

What do you think the politics forum is for.

 

[Pulse]

I heard live on the news. He was on the phone talking about how most in shooting the shooter played violent video games like "Counter-Strike Half-Life" is what he said. I'm sure it will show up here on the internet somewhere.

God he's like the political jockeys on this forum, just waiting to exploit a devastating event such as this in order to preach his own pretentious opinions.

I'll trawl round Youtube and see what I can find...