Were the combine on Xen?

[15357]

Its a poll!

I belive Samon that they weren't.

 

[TheAmazingRando]

If the Combine controlled Xen they would have access to local teleportation as easily as Nihilanth did.

 

[ríomhaire]

Samon isn't the leader of the no's, AL is.

 

[15357]

Samon isn't the leader of the no's, AL is.

General Samon = Inner Party member.

 

[ríomhaire]

Is this Inner Party crap about Hentra or whatever it's called :|

 

[15357]

Is this Inner Party crap about Hentra or whatever it's called :|

Hush. *looks around wearily*


Lets just go back to the argument. You were saying?

 

[Laivasse]

Early pwnage for Independent Xen side.

btw I R TEH LADER :sniper:

 

[ríomhaire]

Oh, and the thrid poll option is quite pointless as none of us know.

 

[iMMuNiTy]

I believe this thread is going to be locked very soon. By Samon.

 

[15357]

No, Samon supports this thread.

 

[Asknoone]

No, it won't.

And lets keep it this way. Keep anything else out of it

I voted no. AL will be pleased to see the no's are ahead.

 

[15357]

Lets post the reasons why we voted, please?

 

[ríomhaire]

Lets post the reasons why we voted, please?

Yes because I think the Combine were on Xen.

 

[Asknoone]

No, because I think the Combine weren't on Xen. This is because...ah what the hell, read this instead:

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72731&highlight=Combine+theory



EDIT: Ignore my posts in that thread, I felt different at the time.

 

[Laivasse]

Reasons for my No:
-nothing of Combine origin on Xen.
-nothing of Xen origin in Combine.
-Combine can't use Xen to teleport.
-the Combine have gained nothing from controlling Xen if they were there, no troops or technology. Contrary to Combine efficiency.
-nothing placed in HL2 to make you think of Combine on Xen.

You can fit a Combine-controlled Xen into the story, but there is no reason to do so, other than some weird desire to link up your enemies. See also: my sig.

 

[iMMuNiTy]

I voted yes just to disagree with Samon.

Though in my opinion there's no way Combine were on Xen. First of all, Combine are strictly relying on their technology & Synths, and Xen is more like a wild world, filled with fauna which relies on their instincts and so on. Also, all the tech' we saw at Xen, didn't look like anything we saw through the Portal Rift in the end of Half-Life 2. Combine just might have something in common with Xen, perhaps the Combine and Breen made a deal to unleash Xen creatures amongst our world in order to weaken our defenses, to "prepare us" for the Combine Invasion itself, but that's just pure speculation.

The Combine themselves weren't on Xen, because Combine are sluggish aliens, encased in a sack-like object, to which technological augmentations have been added. One of those augmentations are two claws, to attack. Others are placed on its back, and I believe these ones are for them to move. Remember the pod ride in HL2? Well, I believe Combine move the same way. On rails. Meaning they couldn't possibly have gone to Xen, just like they couldn't come to Earth, before making it accessible. They needed someone for the job, and they chosen Breen. Going off-topic here... But hopefully everyone understood what I said.

 

[ríomhaire]

iMMuNiTy, you're an idiot.

 

[15357]

iMMuNiTy, you're an idiot.

Stop trying to close this thread because the no side is winning. :hmph:

 

[iMMuNiTy]

iMMuNiTy, you're an idiot.

Thanks for agreeing me. I knew I was correct.

 

[ríomhaire]

Stop trying to close this thread because the no side is winning. :hmph:

I'm not trying to get it closed I'm pointing out that he is an idiot.

 

[iMMuNiTy]

I'm not trying to get it closed I'm pointing out that he is an idiot.

And why exactly? :hmph:

 

[Asknoone]

Less of it please. Take it to the pms

 

[kupocake]

Reasons for my No:
-nothing of Combine origin on Xen.

Difficult to tell. The Combine is supposedly vast, and they may have any of a million different styles. We've probably seen about 0.003% of what the Combine has to offer, and all with a distinctly human bias. Most critically, because the design language for the combine didn't exist before HL2, even if Combine were there, we wouldn't know.

-nothing of Xen origin in Combine.

We've not seen enough of "the combine" to call either way on this. Only exception are the headcrabs, which are supposed to be bred in BigMomma sacs in the a piece of level design of dubious cannon. Combine don't have Xen assets because Gordon defeated the Combine in HL1. In fact, the Trainstation Vortiguant could also be considered an asset, and the green shackles it wears are ever so reminiscent of the old Xen aliens. Why show us this enslaved vortiguant if it holds no meaning?

-Combine can't use Xen to teleport.

Valid point, but lets say that before HL1 they used the Nihlianth for this function. With Nihlianth destroyed, they're losing a race to find another way to use Xen for teleportation - something certainly seems to have set back the human science team in using Xen, and the nature of teleporting locally has changed between the two games (no more going to xen to come back). Who's to say that the Combine can't use Xen for teleportation on other worlds and empires? The earth situation may be a lack of engineers, resources or time. It's certainly taken the Black Mesa East team a long long time to develop a working teleporter of half the extravagence - maybe even half the ability - of the Combine one.

-the Combine have gained nothing from controlling Xen if they were there, no troops or technology. Contrary to Combine efficiency.

Then what was that entire Xen invasion force in HL1 then? Control over it ceased once the Nihlianth was taken down, which is even rumoured to be a direct parallel to what will happen with Human combine soldiers in Aftermath. Aside from this, we cannot know what the Combine truely gain and how it is employed because we have only seen Earth - just because the combine apparently gain earth-style helicopters, will they be employed anywhere but Earth?

-nothing placed in HL2 to make you think of Combine on Xen.

Xen has very little reckoning in HL2 at all, so this has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever. In fact, the only thing that comes to mind about Xen in HL2 is the fact that the Combine control the Headcrabs.

You can fit a Combine-controlled Xen into the story, but there is no reason to do so, other than some weird desire to link up your enemies.

Weird desire? No! The rather tasty similarities between Human combine heirarchy just seem too handy to be coincidental. HL2 is a well thought out story, and any parallels aren't down to chance. Also as i've said elsewhere, that Breen is single handedly responsible for the Resonance Cascade and that he subsequently becomes the most powerful human alive is VERY convenient. Combine intervention pre-RC seems likely.

Was Combine on Xen planned from the beginning? Hard to tell, I even suspect not. This story is in flux and to give a definate answer to the question is too rash. Neither side has that compelling reasons - we've seen far too little to understand the bigger picture.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Is this Inner Party crap about Hentra or whatever it's called :|

Hetairia, actually. Without them, you wouldn't be getting Zombie Master, OR Conquest: City 17.

In my opinion, no. But, AFTER Mossman gave away Xen-Slingshot teleport tech, its feasible that they found it, and decided to launch an assault. Which would make a cool mod, defending Xen from the Combine invaders.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[ríomhaire]

-Combine can't use Xen to teleport.

No the Combine don't use Xen to teleport, we don't know if they can or not.

 

[Laivasse]

(your points)

That post all about sums up the state of play between the Combine-on-Xen/Independent Xen camps, for any newcomers.

Perhaps it might make my points more palatable if I said that there was no obvious Combine material on Xen, no obvious material gain, and no obvious Xen stuff in the Combine, which IMO are pointers to what Valve intended (or didn't intend) with the story.

That's also related to why I just have to take issue with this point:

-nothing placed in HL2 to make you think of Combine on Xen.

Xen has very little reckoning in HL2 at all, so this has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever. In fact, the only thing that comes to mind about Xen in HL2 is the fact that the Combine control the Headcrabs.

Like you said, the story is in flux, and it would have been easy for Valve to solidify some parts of it and reveal a Combine-Xen link by dropping certain pointers. For instance, if there had been a Combine-allied Garg, or an explanatory line from Eli, or Combine soldiers porting in with funky green-blob style Xen teleportation graphics, then this whole issue would be much less grey. That's why that point figures into my reasons.

Weird desire? No! The rather tasty similarities between Human combine heirarchy just seem too handy to be coincidental. HL2 is a well thought out story, and any parallels aren't down to chance.

That is pretty much the bottom line in this whole thing - how people want to see the story. I personally think having an Independent Xen makes for a much cooler story, because it ups the unknown factor of the Combine, and therefore their mystery and inscrutability, and it doesn't make the story any less well-thought-out. The very first thing I thought when I saw a Combine troop and some Combine architecture was, "WOW! new enemies!", and thought about how awesome and brutal it was that humanity had been shat on not once, but twice by totally different alien aggressors due to our over-curiosity. How you see the story is dictated by how you want to see it, in the end (all hail...Captain Obvious!).

 

[Jandor]

Samon
Halflife2.net Staff
Trying to destroy Halflife2.net from the inside!
hetairia

....I leave for two weeks

I voted no.

 

[cquinn]

Perhaps it might make my points more palatable if I said that there was no obvious Combine material on Xen,

That we recognize as exclusively Combine, they did appear to also adapt
existing technology and systems to suit thier purposes.

no obvious material gain,

Vortigaunt slaves, a ready supply of Headcrabs, and an environment where
dimensional teleportation is a natural phenonmena.

and no obvious Xen stuff in the Combine,

In the Combine or from the Combine? We really haven't seen enough
of what the fully Combine controlled worlds are like to see if they
adopt items from other worlds, or just re-terraform those worlds
into the Combine ideal. From the Combine we may have a good example
in how they weaponized the headcrabs to be even deadlier and
more efficient at creating zombies among the resistance, and
what they did to Ravenholm.

which IMO are pointers to what Valve intended (or didn't intend) with the story.

Valve intended for us to tear our hair out in idle speculation on the
meaning of every little thing in the game, so we would spend less time
complaining about Steam or whining about when the Lost Coast is
going to be released.

It could also be argued that the Combine did not have complete control
over Xen, but were just raiding it for extra resources.

 

[ríomhaire]

....I leave for two weeks

I voted no.

Still coming soon?

 

[Asknoone]

Vortigaunt slaves, a ready supply of Headcrabs, and an environment where
dimensional teleportation is a natural phenonmena.

The combine have been on Earth for a long time, and there are plenty of headcrabs around.

 

[FCBob]

not another combine on xen debate thread...

I voted no because while it seems like an ingenious plot device at first, the more you think about it the less it makes sence.

I say no for several reasons

1. If they could communicate with Breen from a across the universes and dimensions, it seems a little odd that they cannot go to earth and require the resonance cascade to do so.

2. If the xenian invasion really was a combine attempt to take over earth, then why didn't they follow it up with the knock out blow. I mean they've just teleported all these aliens to earth to do their fighting for them and while they did lose them thanks to the efforts of Gordon Freeman, what's stopping them from following up with synths and citadels. Why did they wait to do that in the seven hours war?

3. The fact that they do not posses the ability to locally teleport yet that occurs on xen. you'd think that during their time as the occupying force on Xen the combine could learn something about local teleportation.

I do not think the combine were on xen pre hl1 just because there are just too many plot holes. Unfortunately i think that is the direction the game is going though, that the combine were on xen, and valve will just pray that their loyal fans don't mind the inconsistencies.

 

[ríomhaire]

1. If they could communicate with Breen from a across the universes and dimensions, it seems a little odd that they cannot go to earth and require the resonance cascade to do so.

Who saud anything about the Combine being behind the RC?

2. If the xenian invasion really was a combine attempt to take over earth, then why didn't they follow it up with the knock out blow. I mean they've just teleported all these aliens to earth to do their fighting for them and while they did lose them thanks to the efforts of Gordon Freeman, what's stopping them from following up with synths and citadels. Why did they wait to do that in the seven hours war?

Who said the Combine were behind the Xen invasion?

3. The fact that they do not posses the ability to locally teleport yet that occurs on xen. you'd think that during their time as the occupying force on Xen the combine could learn something about local teleportation.

I can't be bothered to repeat myself, I've argued that before too many times:bonce:.

I do not think the combine were on xen pre hl1 just because there are just too many plot holes. Unfortunately i think that is the direction the game is going though, that the combine were on xen, and valve will just pray that their loyal fans don't mind the inconsistencies.

There can only be plot holes if it's actually in teh game, this is speculation. And if it was fact then the above wouldn't be plot-holes anyway.

 

[Laivasse]

How about some people finally post reasons to believe why the Combine WERE on Xen?

Instead of AL, me + whoever having to post over and over again why it looks like they weren't, while the rest sit back and take lazy potshots, never really making any point except muddying the picture?

**This frustration was brought to you by lager and brain-tiredness, and the letters "BS".

 

[ríomhaire]

We've argued this before, there's no point in posting the arguements again until the Vorts in Aftermath say somehing vague and we all go crazy about it.

 

[Laivasse]

We've argued this before, there's no point in posting the arguements again until the Vorts in Aftermath say somehing vague and we all go crazy about it.

Point, but we could just have the main points stated very simply so that those fresh to the argument (and there seem to be a lot of those guys about these days) at least know what is being argued.

That's why I set out my points very simply early on, since I didn't expect people to suddenly start taking issue with them. It's only about the 50th time I've typed them out after all

However this seems to be going the way that most of the other threads have gone - the anti-Combine-on-Xen stake their ground, and then the CoX's come along and pick holes for about 5 pages until anti-CoX makes a very solid defense, then more holes are picked, *repeat until everyone is sick of the entire thing*. What we very rarely see are the bare, basic reasons to come to the conclusions that there were Combine on Xen. So how about it? Someone care to make a speculation-less post about what stuff in the games there is to support that stance? :upstare:

Let's also draw a distinction:
You can fit any story into the games with enough speculation.
You are led to believe certain definite things from what you are shown, or not shown, in the games.

Shall we settle then that the Independent Xen theory is the one most likely to be arrived at from the facts - or lack of opposing facts - but that there is also a perfectly valid Combine-on-Xen interpretation, if you make enough speculation to fill the holes? How's that? :E :cheers:

Yeah, I think that about sums it up.

 

[Esquire]

Prepare yourself for my ramblings!

After playing HL2, I believed that Nihilanth was enslaved by the combine as he was in chains just like the Vortigaunts of Xen. Also, Nihilanth looked modified like the Stalkers of HL2, which could further suggest that Nihilanth was enslaved by the Combine. His modifications included one big metal arse, a sewn on 3rd arm, and modified leg structures (I think). The modified legs are very reminiscent of the hl2 stalkers.

Nihilanth and the headcrabs/gonarch both looked out of place on Xen. Iirc, Xen was mostly greens and blues and brown colours, whereas Nihilanth was a creamy white colour along with headcrabs and gonarch. I find the vortigaunts to be the most likely natural inhabitants of Xen as they most closely match the tones of that planet/world.

But then again, Nihilanth could already have been a part of the UU, and thus could have been placed on Xen by the Combine, to ensure that they had some control over dimensional teleportation. But then why would he be shackled? I don’t know!?!

But yeah, it would be stupid if the combine were on Xen but couldn’t figure out the teleportation thing, and also there’s no reasoning as to why they weren’t able to invade earth in hl1. they would have been able to invade at any time if they were really in control of xen.

Also, take note of how the Combine on Earth make use of the headcrabs, and how different variants have only now come to light. I believe these points are due to the fact that headcrabs are a part of the original combine species. The headcrabs do, on a small scale, essentially what the sole aim of the combine is.. to combine with different technologies/species, to assimilate.

Right, ive lost the plot now, so I’ll summarise.. it looks very much like Valve is just making things up as they go along. Yes I’m sure they’ve got a final aim for the storyline, but looking at just how similar the Nihilanth of hl1 and Stalker of hl2 are to each other, one would be led to believe that Nihilanth was part of the Combine or was enslaved by the combine, thus the combine would be on xen and would have control of the border world. But then you end up askin why hadn’t they invaded earth at an earlier date (i.e., in hl1)?!

If I was to right a short list of things I want clearing up in Hl 2:aftermath and hl3, it would be something like this:

Answers to:
Nihilanth’s stitched on 3rd arm
Nihilanth’s metal arse and modified legs
Loads of Qs about Gman
Loads of Qs about the Universal Union (the combine).

OK,, I think I’m back on track again,; presuming Xen was controlled by the UU, and Nihilanth was a member of the UU, then when Gordon went to Xen and killed Nihilanth, he freed Xen of the UU's rule. The enslaved Vortigaunts were now made free again; Xen was their home planet.

This would explain why the combine attacking earth do not have Vortigaunts fighting along side them. Also, this may explain why the Vortigaunts are allied with Gordon, because they owe him because he freed them.

I have a question though, what ever happened to the Xen grunts? And gargs and all the others. Why is it that only the Vortigaunts have popped up on earth. Come to think of it, where have those antlions appeared from aswell?!! Wth, ive only just noticed those guys as not being on xen.

If the Nihilanth was a part of the Combine, then possibly the Combine is a force of good. We hear nihilanth telling Gordon not to trust PersonX, that PersonX is a deceiver or something, and that Gordon is a man yet that PersonX is not a man. But then again the UU does engage in hostile takeovers which isn’t so good… ok yeah I think I’ve definitely lost the plot now. I give up.

 

[FCBob]

Who saud anything about the Combine being behind the RC?

well it seems it is a reoccuring theme that Breen used the resonance cascade to gain power with the combine when they did invade. I believe it was kupoartist who stated something to that effect. Since as some would argue it that Breen caused the resonance cascade to gain favor with the combine it only makes since that they argue that the combine contacted Breen pre resonance cascade.

 

[iMMuNiTy]

Nihilanth and the headcrabs/gonarch both looked out of place on Xen. Iirc, Xen was mostly greens and blues and brown colours, whereas Nihilanth was a creamy white colour along with headcrabs and gonarch. I find the vortigaunts to be the most likely natural inhabitants of Xen as they most closely match the tones of that planet/world.

Nihilanth's skin was brown, Gonarch was brown, and IMO, they both fitted in the Xen atmosphere well. Gonarch was put into Xen just to prove that headcrabs are Xen wildlife, and to show where do they come "from".

Also, take note of how the Combine on Earth make use of the headcrabs, and how different variants have only now come to light. I believe these points are due to the fact that headcrabs are a part of the original combine species. The headcrabs do, on a small scale, essentially what the sole aim of the combine is.. to combine with different technologies/species, to assimilate.

Combine rely on technology, headcrabs don't even know what a PC is. Combine are intelligent beings albeit their stupid sluggish looks, while headcrabs are creatures that rely only on their instincts. Headcrabs are from Xen. And with what species do headcrabs combine? Humans? No, they feast on humans. They are their preys. Consider headcrabs as ticks.

But I do not deny the possibility of Nihilanth being enslaved by the Combine - he (Nihilanth) did warn you a few times on Xen. But vortigaunts were releaved off their shackles once Nihilanth was dead, so that kind of doesn't make sense.

 

[ríomhaire]

well it seems it is a reoccuring theme that Breen used the resonance cascade to gain power with the combine when they did invade. I believe it was kupoartist who stated something to that effect. Since as some would argue it that Breen caused the resonance cascade to gain favor with the combine it only makes since that they argue that the combine contacted Breen pre resonance cascade.

Virtually no one on this forum believes taht theory I think. At least people haven't argues it much anyway.

 

[Adabiviak]

The only evidence I see of combine having been on Xen is the Nihilanth, but that's sketchy. Did they "build/fix" him there or at home (and then teleport him in)?