What is HL2DM missing?.. How can you even call it that? Many of our thoughts...

[s3pReMiSis]

Im making this post because I think i need to. I started playing the original HLDM in 2000, and was instantly hooked. Like thousands of others, I constantly played and became attached to game.. playing in tournaments, joining top clans, going to lans across the US, and became one of the best hldm players to date. But there is always a reason for these things.

Why do I love hldm? Because it was so unbelievably unique in numerous ways, a ton more than any other FPS. The fast-pace of the game was one aspect that set it far above other games, and opened up a new window to skill. The feel was great, the maps were great... and what primarily set HLDM apart fom the rest; the weapons.

Am I extremely pissed @ HL2DM because I dont like change? No, I love change. But what VALVe has done is far from change. How can you call it HL2DM with huge modification's to the weapons? And even take out the 1 weapon that changed everything; the gauss cannon. You look at UT, CS, Farcry, D3... notice some similarity? I sure as hell do. All based upon the regular pick up a common machine gun or grendade launcher and shoot it. Nothing special; you can do little jumps, maybe run fast, maybe even zoom. Everything is 'ZzZZZzzZZZzzz'. When i rarely start up CSS i cant even play for 5 minutes. Walking so slow, camping, SLOWING DOWN WHEN YOU JUMP, sickens me. For anyone new to computers, or FPS type games, CS:S is for you.

You take a look at what made HLDM great, and then you take a look at what it is now, complete shit. How can you completely take out the gauss cannon? Or create a CS-style crossbow that fires 1 round per millennium? You just took the most skilled multiplayer EVER created, a multiplayer that was so fast and unique you look at it and say "WOW!", and made into utter crap. No different than a UT or D3 mod.

Im not pissed because VALVe implemented the physics manipulator; I think its great. Something that had some thought put into it. Except for all the noobs throwing shit around and levels flooded with stuff, its a great idea.

Another thing is the movement. Ill give VALVe some credit for 'trying' to make it close to the original DM, but take out the longjump? You have got to be kidding me. Another factor that set HLDM apart form the rest. Now instead of longjumping, manuevering yourself in crazy ways trying to avoid something being thrown @ you, now you get to just do little hops and get nailed in the head with it, what fun. Not to mention the ever-so-laggy sprint.. what a joke. And im not even going to mention bunnyhop. Another aspect that took a good anount of skill to master, and is now gone. Now we all get to walk along like idiots.

So bacially thats what I, along with hundreds probably thousands of people think. Dont get me wrong, at least VAVLe came out with a DM (although they probably threw this together after they got owned with all the complaints), but to completly alter it and take away what many of us were waiting for is wrong. After hearing rumors about HL2 in like 2002 and dreaming about it, now all I feel like doing is turning on my computer and loading up the original DM. Im not gonna belive my own lies, because at first I said "omg this game owns!" just to make myself feel better.... because in reality I wish the dam game got delayed another year.

 

[TheCorps]

Am I extremely pissed @ HL2DM because I dont like change? No, I love change.

Another thing is the movement. Ill give VALVe some credit for 'trying' to make it close to the original DM, but take out the longjump? You have got to be kidding me. Another factor that set HLDM apart form the rest. Now instead of longjumping, manuevering yourself in crazy ways trying to avoid something being thrown @ you, now you get to just do little hops and get nailed in the head with it, what fun. Not to mention the ever-so-laggy sprint.. what a joke. And im not even going to mention bunnyhop. Another aspect that took a good anount of skill to master, and is now gone. Now we all get to walk along like idiots.

Sounds to me like your contradicting yourself. You say you like change but then you bitch about how you can't bunny hop or longjump. If they implemented those manuevers in HL2DM it wouldn't be change.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Sounds to me like your contradicting yourself. You say you like change but then you bitch about how you can't bunny hop or longjump. If they implemented those manuevers in HL2DM it wouldn't be change.

:cheers:

 

[sonicst0rm]

I couldn't agree with Seprem more. I've known him for about 5 years now, and he has become one of the best HLDM/AG players there are, up there with the top of them.

In responce to TheCorps comment about why is he complaining about change: simple. If you compare hldm to hl2dm, look at the drastic difference...I think a little change would be nice, but, i mean, its a totally different game

Basically, what it's become is just your same old shitty generic DM game, that peolpe will become bored of. The gravity gun add's a new twist on gameplay, but picking up a toilet and chucking it at someone gets boring in 5 minutes.

After playing the original HLDM basically since it came out, then moving to AG, i have become part of the 'pro' community. Believe me, I know a fast paced game when I see it, and hldm took so much skill to become good at, and it was possibly the greatest measure of skill a game could give you. Now, its lame. I played it for all of 5 minutes, when i got bored of the slowness, gay guns, noobs, then went to do something more important, like take a crap. Well, you'll say I didn't give the game a chance, I HOPE this is a beta.

NO TAU CANNON? WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. that gun made the original HLDM, and added a whole new facet to the gameplay, and the skills between player. Theres a lot more to it than whoring walls and jumping like an idiot. Play in an AG server and see for yourself....

Well, I'm gonna wait on AG2, and I hope its like the original. I probably won't play hl2dm again soon, it favors noobs, its slow and not fun. no good guns, stupid pick up a gun and kill someone then get a toilet in ur face. Lame game. Valve needs to step up the multiplayer. I'll only play it if they add some new stuff, e.g. tau and longjump.

*edit*
we have enough slow games. This shouldnt be a dm game its so freakin slow. CS seems faster. Stupid slow zoom and xbow bolts. 1 kill magnum. What were they thinking when they made this trash. Youll get bored of it soon enough. No new gameplay, for such a revolutionary game. Disappointing. They were on crack when they didnt include a tau in it. Was their focus to turn people away?

One of the greatest things in HLDM was the fact that a winner really didn't amount to luck, but had to rely totally on their own skill, not their team's skill like CS, or 5 lucky headshots in a row. After some CS idiot gets headshot, its automatically hacks, and if hes at the top, they get these insane egos and think they're so good. HL its complete opposite, the better player always comes out on top. True game.

AG 2 BETTER OWN.

 

[Soundwave]

I don't think Hl2 deathmatch sucks, but I honestly think the multiplay is very much like Far Cry's when it comes to the core gameplay. Anyone that has played a decent amount of Far Cry deathmatch most likely agrees. It's so similar it's eerie.

Which isn't really a bad thing I suppose, as I enjoyed Far Cry's MP, and while Hl2's is similar, it's also better in every aspect. It's just that Hl2DM is nothing like the 1st one in that it doesn't feel as "free" if that makes sense.

 

[chriscanadian]

Don't listen to him VALVe. 99% of us love it!

 

[s3pReMiSis]

It's just that Hl2DM is nothing like the 1st one in that it doesn't feel as "free" if that makes sense.

No, that makes perfect sense. You can't do half the things in HL2DM that can in the original DM. You have so many limits its bazaar. Now, you basically can just sprint and do little jumps.. it almost feels as if you walk way to slow and you weight 500 lbs. But hey, like I said its like most other DM games, same old shit, just new paint.

 

[the_stalker]

Yea... that's because hldm is a killfest type game, it comes down more to whoever has more agility and concentration when there longjumping EVERYWHERE, that is basicly the only reason I ever died in the game, I miss one long jump and someone hits me with an mp5 grenade/power tau cannon hit(still should have been in hl2dm)/rpg or detpacking (rarely used but real powerful).

 

[Dead-Inside]

Original DM sucks. ONly for the freakishly pro players..

If you want the old DM on the new engine, why don't you simply port it? It's not like there's some great programming behind it.

 

[sonicst0rm]

too bad the game takes no skill. I wish there was a new game out there that actually relied on a little thing called skill...

btw cs is faster than this game. its too ****in restricted for a DM game, let alone the fastest and best game ever, HLDm. Maybe you should play the first hldm before u judge this shit one.

Remember...AG2. I really hope they dont screw it up.
why are u comparing to far cry. totally diff game. it shouldnt be similar, really. Valves games are more and more noob-worthy lol. Not to say that its bad for noobs, but its impossible for people to get good at it, and have a competitive community. Too bad. Back to the original HLDM / AG

 

[mortiz]

Stop moaning, you're lucky you got any HL2DM at all. Pff, can't please some people.

 

[sonicst0rm]

Original DM sucks. ONly for the freakishly pro players..

If you want the old DM on the new engine, why don't you simply port it? It's not like there's some great programming behind it.

its fun for us freakishly pro players. Some of them are too good, i'd have to agree. It makes the game all the more diverse. If u dont like pros dont play with them, lol.

 

[User123abc]

Why start out saying you're one of the best players out there? What difference does it make? Is your opinion more valuable as such?

What is skilled multiplayer? In a game based around a point and click interface, tending to shy away from slower tactical thought, what is skill?

Sorry if this sounds too insulting. I honestly think HL2 (and DM) would have benefited from more weapons, and there probably wouldn't be much harm in keeping around old ones. I have to say though, you came off as just a little elitist : )

 

[Speedkills]

have you "pros" actually played HL2DM on the overwatch level with 16 players? It's ****ing intense, even more intense than the tiny rocket launcher levels on the original unreal tournament. I dont understand how it is "slow". It's only slow in the sense that you can't run as fast...but that's much more realistic. The pace of the original HL was ridiculous really...you appear to be some sort of athletic sprinting genius.
I really have no idea what you are all going on about....I don't think I've ever enjoyed a multiplayer game as much as HL2DM. The gravity gun makes everything so much better. The tau cannon in the original was so horribly unbalanced, it simply meant that the players who had discovered where it was on every level and ran to it the quickest won. Simple.

And why is there such a problem with "noobs" in the gaming community? People have to start somewhere for ****s sake, quit your pathetic whining. You were a noob once, how would you have felt if some big headed bastard belittled you every second because you arent leet and uber cool like them?
How exactly does HL2DM favour new players? Because you don't have to spend half your life learning all the levels back to front to be good at it. You just have to be quick, agile and have a good aim. It is a DM that most gamers can enjoy - the ppl that don't spend every hour of their lives playing games, and just want half an hour occasionally of gravity gunning fun.

 

[Apos]

If you compare hldm to hl2dm, look at the drastic difference...I think a little change would be nice, but, i mean, its a totally different game

Wow, they really catch on quick, don't they? A different game is like, a totally different game!

Basically, what it's become is just your same old shitty generic DM game, that peolpe will become bored of. The gravity gun add's a new twist on gameplay, but picking up a toilet and chucking it at someone gets boring in 5 minutes.

Maybe you mean 500 minutes? The dimension of play that the grav gun adds is way more complicated and tactical than just chucking a toilet at somebody.

After playing the original HLDM basically since it came out, then moving to AG, i have become part of the 'pro' community.

Generally known as the stick-up-the-azz community.

NO TAU CANNON? WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. that gun made the original HLDM, and added a whole new facet to the gameplay, and the skills between player.

I agree: it needs more and more innovative weapons to broaden the depth of play. And the tau coming back would be a good idea. But geez, calm the heck down dude. It's a work in progress, and it's a new universe and game.

Well, I'm gonna wait on AG2, and I hope its like the original. I probably won't play hl2dm again soon, it favors noobs, its slow and not fun.

i.e.: I actually died once or twice playing it against public players which is totally unfair: I should always be teh winnaR when playing against all you regular losers who don't have l33t tags and address on "I'm so pro" dot com!

I'll only play it if they add some new stuff, e.g. tau and longjump.

Yes, if only we can have EXACTLY the same gameplay as HLDM so you l33t players can run the same boring of crap pattern bouncing strategy all over the maps ad naseum exactly as you've practiced for years. Heaven forbid you have to learn new strategies and styles.

News flash: Valve didn't cancel HL1DM or AG for HL1. They still exist. You think they're the best... go play them.

 

[hero]

who cares about realism this isnt cs this is Half life

i completely agree with u hl2dm haters

i love hldm even tho i suck at it

it is amaizing to see those guys flyng around in hl dm maps with guass cannon

absolute madness

 

[Thadius Dean]

Basically, what it's become is just your same old shitty generic DM game

i think you got it backwards dude. HLDM was mediocre, HL2DM is far from generic.

(not to say that i hated the original, i love it)

 

[oberGeist]

if you want a fast paced frag-fest game go for Painkiller's mp.

HL2 DM is closer to Doom 3 (...now let the flaming begin... )
I mean it's not so fast as PK or HLDM, but a bit more tactical.
given the Grav Gun and all the possibilities that it gives you can build barricades, use stuff as projectiles or shields and even remodel the whole environment if you wish (of course the map has to be designed properly for that king of fun).

but it's not like you HAVE to get tactical and THINK. you can always grab a magnum or a smg and go for true fragging.
HL2DM let's you CHOOSE the type of gameplay you prefer.
that's the true potential of the game - flexibility and diversity.

but then of course one has to be flexible too to fully appreciate this

 

[ignot]

Hmm, to paraphrase what i've seen so far:

--------------------------------------------------------------
OMG they changed the features that i've been honing for 5 years and now I can't lord it up over everyone about how good I am and feel superi0r!!!!!

This crappy DM doesn't cater for the exact game flow i've become used too, OMG it's for n00bs!!!!

The game takes no skill now, anyone with good hand/eye co-ordination, a good knowledge of how the game works, map awareness and fast reflexes can do well now.

Jeez, I can't believe what they've done with this p.o.s Obviously because I love HLDM it makes it a great game, FACT (And if anyone disagrees they are either n00bs, or suck. Or both)

I like change but only when it's to my advantage.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Seems like you would be best sticking to HLDM untill someone mods for your needs. Because most of us are happy with HL2DM.

 

[wymer]

I started playing HLDM in 2001 and have to say that HL2DM reminds me of CS, very slow and boring. The only reason I continued to play HLDM was because it wasn't easy. It took me years and many hours of gameplay to become any good at it and i still am not a top player. I like a challenging game that isn't mastered over night and becomes very boring. I was hoping that HL2Dm would be as challenging and would keep my interest, but it hasn't.

 

[ignot]

HL2DM would probably be challenging if you didn't start playing till it had been out 2 years as well

 

[Lain]

I miss bunnyhop gauss and longjump too man,
i liked hl2dm but somehow it's just too slow,
give us adrenaline gamer already!

 

[AGENT 15]

I agree with teh first post kinda, but its just the way they have it. they had to cut ALOT of stuff, so they didnt add everythng.

 

[vizigothe]

just to defend s3pReMiSis, i agree with him hl2dm isnt that great right now but i do hope for patches and or mods. also hldm is prolly the best dm game i have ever played, no i wasnt a pro, but it was the pace of the game that i loved, i enjoy a fast paced game that takes a lot of skill, tactical shooters bore me to tears, i dont play DM games to enjoy the realism ias for changes i mean i like them i enjoy the pulse rifle and the grav gun but why deviate from the orginal so much, i hope they add the parts that made the orginal so great

 

[s3pReMiSis]

The tau cannon in the original was so horribly unbalanced, it simply meant that the players who had discovered where it was on every level and ran to it the quickest won. Simple.

Perhaps on maybe a few maps. But even if this was true just imagine all the players, who are indredibly skilled, racing to pick up the tau first. Imagine the amount of skill to manuever and defend yourself in order to not die. And thats not even getting into keeping a high frag/death ratio. I can show you a demo from the best USA player ever, and it will blow you away. After, you will be like "what the hell!?!? NO way" And then you show me a top player from CS:S or even UT, wanna know what I see? I see myself regularily playing, or any other person. Same style of play, same style of movement. Skill, my friend, is what set HLDM apart... the main reason it was never as popular as cs.

And why is there such a problem with "noobs" in the gaming community? People have to start somewhere for ****s sake, quit your pathetic whining.

I go into a server, my FIRST time playing, i go 100-55. I died %90 of the time from some random table or chair smacking me in the face. Yeah, like I can dodge that! lol.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It isn't HL:S : DM though.

It's HL2: DM

It IS a different game, that's the thing.

 

[lG-88]

I agree about everything that's pretty much said against Hl2DM, however i probably have a better view on it than others here.

I started out playing TFC (which was pretty fast paced) and later CS (back in the beta's, when it was somewhat fast paced depending on how u played it). From there i moved to something called Sev's HLDM, then HLDM, AG and DOD. I stopped playing TFC cause it got boring, and every other game was destroyed by the developers except for HLDM, sev's and AG (sev's just got old real fast).

I came new to the AG scene, when there were alot more leets than there were today. Many of them helped me out, and AG actualy made it alot easier to learn than if i'd stayed playing HLDM. Thanks to a gamemode called arena you cam actualy get good at 2 of the main skills quite fast, movement and aim. The rest you just have to learn on your own.

From my experience AG/HLDM takes alot more tactics than DOD, CS, or TFC ever did. I could just run into fights and kill everyone in those, but if you do that in AG you get destroyed. Map control is also key here, in CS or DOD the layout of the map really didn't matter, but if you can't adapt, then you'll have to take lots of time learning maps. A good player can own on just about anymap, even if they never played it.

About a year or 2 ago it was insanely competative, and yet it was also layed back. Our clans aren't like all the CS clans i seems to hear about. Teamplay comes natural after pubing with your clan, we never had organized practices. People complain how you need to play so much to be good at HLDM, but then those same people have to attend practices every night for CS or get kicked out of their clan. I have a friend who got kicked out of his CS clan for going on vacation for 3days.

Now lets see whats going on in hl2dm, pretty much it's a toss fest. Spawning with the grav gun may be cool for a couple of games, but it got old after a while. Specially with a game thrown together as fast as HL2DM was. It seems like a combination between CS and HL2 that made an incredably slow game like i've never seen before. DM is not supposed to be slow paced. UT was never that slow, neither is UT2k3... This slow speed will drive our fairly large community away to AG2 when it comes out, and then slowly HL2DM will die off into mods like OZ or sev's like it has with HL1. All those people amazed by the grav gun will go back to CS with it's highly repetaive gameplay.

HL2DM, as is, will not last.

 

[turkish81]

People really can't get it into there heads that this isnt HLDM 1.5 it's HL2DM so it's a new thing and it's pretty awesome at that haven't has this much fun smaking people in the head with toilets since .... ever, and it's pretty simple guys you don't like the new death match go make your own theres enough coders and skinners out there to farm the fields in china for gods sake.

 

[lG-88]

People really can't get it into there heads that this isnt HLDM 1.5 it's HL2DM so it's a new thing and it's pretty awesome at that haven't has this much fun smaking people in the head with toilets since .... ever, and it's pretty simple guys you don't like the new death match go make your own theres enough coders and skinners out there to farm the fields in china for gods sake.

Half-life is turning into the matrix

 

[turkish81]

Half-life is turning into the matrix

Does that mean that we're in Half-life right now

 

[michael_obrien]

I have to say, when I first loaded the game up, spawning with the grav gun was not what i'd expected. Being the most powerful and versatile gun available, and having infinite ammo... They should give an ammo cap to the grav gun in the current one at the very least, or make it something you don't spawn with. A return of the tau would be nice too, just rip off the one u got on the buggy...

I have to say that the game as is was simply created by a panicked valve trying to find some way to let people play with the physics engine.

Actually, the whole stamina sprint system and new movement control systems kinda rub me the wrong way too... oh well.

 

[NoID]

I think it would be nice if all servers added the sv_infinite_aux_power 1 command to their configs. Doing so would bring it back to a faster gameplay.

 

[Cecchino]

who cares about realism this isnt cs

LMAO....CS isn't anywhere NEAR realisitic....just because it has something that looks like an UMP-45 or M4 doesn't make it realistic.....I have yet to see someone be able to jump 20 yards and shoot a 12 gauge shotgun and score a headshot in real life.

 

[madcow555]

Heh...

:dozey:

This has to be the most pointless thread I've ever read. I have to agree that the ones who are trying to bash hl2dm must be no older than 12. People like them are the reason why I could never get into the CS community. Too many whining babies. HL2DM is fine as it is. If you don't like it, that is precisely why Valve has given us the SDK. If you don't like the servers, make your own, change a few settings, and stop whining because some person you dub a "noob" because you think we should all bow to you, and think you're special because you can move a mouse and click.
​

HLDM, CS, and HL2DM do not take anything remotely resembling skill to be good at. HL2DM tries to cater to the arcadey-fast-paced-action "pick-up-and-go" crowd to be accessible to new players as well as old ones. It doesn't go over-the-top and become something like quake/unreal tournament/etc/etc/various run-n-gun-with-a-rocket-launcher-trash-game. Some of you like those fast games where you run like superman on crack and kill something every 3 seconds. If you like that, go play one of the games I just mentioned. Any tool can run around like a maniac and point and click. Takes NO skill. NONE. Shooting accurately, and not getting killed in real life takes skill (or helluva lot of good luck). In video-games, having good hand-eye coordination... being proficient with a mouse... having a good system... memorizing the maps in and out.... even something as simple as setting your mouse sensitivity just right can make a huge difference. Generally, not being stupid nets you high scores.

Then there's the script-kiddies... the so-called "1337 h4x0r5" of the community. The ones who think it's a marvel that they can write a few lines of simple code to allow them to bunny-hop circles around someone while switching between weapons rapidly and doing stupid looking things, supposedly giving them the advantage. Wow... congrats.. you killed someone in a video-game, but you looked ridiculous doing it. The reason Valve slowed down the running, and especially the jumping is because people abuse those two things in these types of games. They know new players... or... as you call them... "noobs" who pick this game up will have a hard time hitting someone who looks like a jackrabbit with a shotgun, hopping around the room like a bouncing ball. You don't see the enemies doing that in the single-player game, so why put it in multi-player? Make sense now? SOME realism is expected. If I had it my way, you shouldn't even be allowed to jump. Do you see police officers jumping around in a firefight trying to dodge bullets? A dive or a roll would be more believable. Even automatic mounting to ledges would be preferable. I like the way Valve balanced it. I wanna play against people... not rabbits.
​

And the elitist attitude is so common in these games. There is no such thing as "the greatest player in the usa" blah blah. Has he played every other single player in the US? Nope. What percentage of people who play these games on your clans/ladders compete like this? Very few. I've co-managed a gaming ladder for many online games for a long time... and you know what I saw? Rampant known cheating and not a thing done about it. After all, who would wanna play in their tournaments if they knew they let people cheat? Oops... wouldn't want that. So.. as good as you think you are... guess what? You're not. You got "pwned by n00bz" and you can't just be humble and accept that you're no better than the next guy at clicking a mouse. It's a game. Life goes on. If you don't like HL2DM, please... by all means, don't play it. One less person to complain when I clobber them with a toilet.

 

[Eon Blue]

I can see the point in not playing it if you don't like it. I can't see the point in making threads about it in an area filled with people who do enjoy it, especially if that thread's just complaining about it.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

HL2DM is not a "sequel" to HLDM
It's DM based around HL2.

If you're that attached to HLDM, then play it. It hasn't been mysteriously deleted from your computer. If you really, really have to play it on a new engine, then get a competent adult to port it for you. Failing that, quit whining. "Pro" gamers are very much a minority, and it's the majority that define a game's popularity. When the majority of people are having fun playing it, who are you to decide if it's good or not for the rest of us?

Get over yourselves.

 

[Vinnie_NL]

...and think you're special because you can move a mouse and click...

So I'm not special ;(
j/k

HL2DM is everything I expected what it would be, just throwing all kinds of objects to each other. All I wish is a little bit more official maps by Valve and less lag because it sometimes makes toiletting very difficult. And I even have lag when I have a ping of 30 so it's just the netcode what needs some more perfection. I know the lag is caused by the large amount of movable objects in the level but I hope they shouldn't take that out. Then it would be almost like HL1DM and I don't want that (do I feel it's getting warmer here? It's from some kind of flames or something )

 

[Mr.Wotsit]

Personally, this game is a lot of fun as it is.

I can't see Valve surfing over to this thread, reading that a couple of people from the minority of "pro" gamers don't like HL2DM and it inspiring them to run back to their code and change everything.

Why do you bother if it clearly isn't going to happen.
There's lots of people who like it.
And there's a few like you who don't.

Go play something else if you're too inflexible to adapt to a new game.
I mean, if you think you're good then surely you'd be able to move between games pretty well.
Otherwise, you're just *practised*.

 

[Mediocrity]

Personally, I find that there are few things more satisfying than nailing some Bunny-hopping fool with a radiator.

 

[sonicst0rm]

Yeah, i agree with all of you that a game should be fun. Personally, I have fun getting ridiculously good and kicking everyones ass in a valve server, and going 100-0. One of the fun factors in a game is being able to get good at it, something which a lot of gamers work at. Unfortunately, HL2DM is just a game that doesn't involve skill, or much that you can work at. Oh well, that is why they released the SDK. I guess they left this up to the modding community to take. I'm gonna add the gauss cannon myself . I doubt they will change it anyway.

Oh yeah, whoever said hldm had no skill, go play me or seprem (or probably any other half decent player for that matter).