Who Created The Terrorist Problem?

[No Limit]

It would have happened anyway. The threat created itself.

Sure, we would probably still be a target but that doesn't mean I can go up to al queda and hadn them millions of dollars and a bunch of weapons becasue the threat is there anyway. I still believe if it wasn't for the neocons in this country 9/11 would never have happened.

 

[Core407]

The term "terrorism" gets thrown around a lot here. I can't wait until someone uses it in the proper fashion.

 

[Solaris]

The term "terrorism" gets thrown around a lot here. I can't wait until someone uses it in the proper fashion.

No point arguing over the semantics of terrorism/freedom fighting.

 

[delusional]

you just really hate irving kristol huh no limit, the funny thing is neoconservatism was born from the left another funny thing is bush wasnt a neocon when he took office but became one after 911. and sure al queda was given weapons but it doesnt mean the US created terrorism since the hate for western civilization was already there it just made it easier for al queda to attack us doesnt mean they wouldnt have

 

[Solaris]

you just really hate irving kristol huh no limit, the funny thing is neoconservatism was born from the left another funny thing is bush wasnt a neocon when he took office but became one after 911. and sure al queda was given weapons but it doesnt mean the US created terrorism since the hate for western civilization was already there it just made it easier for al queda to attack us doesnt mean they wouldnt have

The hate came from western bombings and killings both direct and indirect of arab civillians.

 

[No Limit]

you just really hate irving kristol huh no limit, the funny thing is neoconservatism was born from the left another funny thing is bush wasnt a neocon when he took office but became one after 911. and sure al queda was given weapons but it doesnt mean the US created terrorism since the hate for western civilization was already there it just made it easier for al queda to attack us doesnt mean they wouldnt have

It was born from the left, sure, back in world world 2 with liberals that wanted the US to get involved in the war. These were people that wanted liberal views when it came to domestic issues and conservative when it came to foreign policy. But around the Reagan administration that all changed. Today it is a movement that is pretty much the same thing as the PNAC think tank. What they want today is america to control the entire world. It is such a close minded view it is out right ridiculous. What it amounts to is wiping every religion they don't like off the fact of the earth, christianity excluded of course.

They are so far right and so radical it is unimaginable how any person could be so arrogant as to think like that. They withdrew from the antiballistic missile treaty between us and the soviets, they want us to create a new armed forces that will control space, and they want to deploy our military all over the world (there's another way to make arabs love us). These guys are ****ing idiots. So if you are attacking me for hating them so much I would like you to explain what positions you agree with them on.

Also, I read you article about Hezbollah and Isreal, can you tell me what that has to do with this thread? I would love to go into disporving many of the points that guy who supposedly lives there makes but I really fail to see how this is relevent to this thread.

 

[delusional]

the hate came from the french and british occupation of egypt and in 1928 the muslim brotherhood was created to renew the "doctrine of reclaiming islams manifest destiny; an empire founded in the seventh century, that stretched from spain to indonesia"

 

[No Limit]

the hate came from the french and british occupation of egypt and in 1928 the muslim brotherhood was created to renew the "doctrine of reclaiming islams manifest destiny; an empire founded in the seventh century, that stretched from spain to indonesia"

You are again going back almost a century. The problem wasn't with the british nor the french as they withdrew completely from the area. The problem arose with Israel using terrorism to win its land and the US putting bases all around muslim holy land. The problem is with religion and as much as I hate religion you can not ingore the way billions of people in that region think.

But in many ways you guys are completely ignoring my original post because of my subject (that is my fault). The point of this thread is that a lot of the modern terrorism was created thanks to neocons in this country. And the fact is that neocon policies directly led to 9/11 happening (along with many other things that are ****ed up in todays world). Yet these idiots still have a forum to speak in and they even control most of our current government. How ****ed up is that?

 

[delusional]

i was merely stating that terrorism wasnt created by neocons just merely helped along and if you really want to know im not a neocon the only belief i share is that im anti communist and i support israel. and dont call me an idiot i just like arguing against a majority which most of of hl2.net is leftist its only natural for me to argue from the right

 

[No Limit]

i was merely stating that terrorism wasnt created by neocons just merely helped along and if you really want to know im not a neocon the only belief i share is that im anti communist and i support israel. and dont call me an idiot i just like arguing against a majority which most of of hl2.net is leftist its only natural for me to argue from the right

Where the hell did I call you an idiot and where the hell did I call you a neocon?

 

[delusional]

sorry i miss read your post in which you said "these idiots still have a forum to speak in" and you asked positions i agreed with neocons

 

[No Limit]

And now that I reread it I shouldn't of said forum considering I am on a forum. By forum I meant the media.

And I would still be interested to know what you agree with them on if anything. I know you said communism but come on, nobody, not even them, is talking about communism. That "problem" has passed. And don't be mistaken, when they talk about countries like Cuba it has nothing to do with communism, it has to do with them wanting to control the world by any means necessary.

And one more thing, I reject your premise that Bush became a neocon after 9/11. That is certainly what the media would like you to believe but it is utter bullshit. Most of the people he appointed to his cabinet including Rumsfeld and Cheney were the part of the founding of the PNAC. He had plans on the books to attack Iraq long before 9/11.

 

[No Limit]

Here are some more neocons Bush appointed, source is wikipedia:

Elliott Abrams - National Security Council

Richard Armitage - Department of State

John R. Bolton - Department of State

Richard Cheney - Vice President

Seth Cropsey - Voice of America

Paula Dobriansky - Department of State

Francis Fukuyama - President's Council on Bioethics

Bruce Jackson - U.S. Committee on NATO

Zalmay Khalilzad - U.S.Ambassador to Iraq

I. Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff for the Vice President

Peter W. Rodman - Department of Defense

Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of Defense

Randy Scheunemann - U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute

Paul Wolfowitz - World Bank

Dov S. Zakheim - Department of Defense

Robert B. Zoellick - Department of State

 

[delusional]

i got my info from wikipedia article on neoconservative where it said neocons critisized bush on his handling of the incident where a US spy plane crashed and the chinese interogated the people onboard, all because he wasnt aggressive enough. at the moment im not really sure with what i agree with neocons except support for israel.

 

[No Limit]

i got my info from wikipedia article on neoconservative where it said neocons critisized bush on his handling of the incident where a US spy plane crashed and the chinese interogated the people onboard, all because he wasnt aggressive enough. at the moment im not really sure with what i agree with neocons except support for israel.

Then I would love to see you get more involved with some of the Israel discussions around here, I'm really not going to bring that up in this thread. The spy plane incident was just that, we had our plane on another country's sovereign land. What did they want Bush to do, bomb China and kill millions of people in the war that would follow? Oh yeah, they are neocons, thats exactly what they wanted him to do .

The problem Bush had is that Americans would never approve of such a thing and the republican party would have been destoryed. He is still a neocon but as the president he had to be more careful before 9/11. He had people like Cheney and Rumsfeld do his dirty work.

 

[99.vikram]

Who created the terrorist problems? The people who wage wars, esp. wars on terrorists.

 

[Black_Wolf]

Sure, we would probably still be a target but that doesn't mean I can go up to al queda and hadn them millions of dollars and a bunch of weapons becasue the threat is there anyway. I still believe if it wasn't for the neocons in this country 9/11 would never have happened.

If it wasn't for Isreal then it would have never happend,imo

 

[CptStern]

If it wasn't for Isreal then it would have never happend,imo

oh yes, it was the jews that sent 9/11 into motion ..ya that must be it

btw any chance of you listing sources/rationale or is that too much to ask


btw it was the christians

 

[No Limit]

If it wasn't for Isreal then it would have never happend,imo

But again, you are completely ignoring everything that was said. Neoncs handed Osama a bunch of weapons, millions of dollars and then a few months before 9/11 they actually gave the people harboring Osama 41 million dollars. If that never happened 9/11 would be just another date.

 

[Nemesis6]

Osama used the first Israeli incursion in Lebanon as a pretext to hit the twin towers.

Islamic clerics blame American reality TV for moral and social problems in the Middle-East.

Iranian clerics alledge Tom and Jerry as being Jewish propaganda, showing the Jew as the mouse.

Ahmadinejad flat out believes he is the Maadi of Islam.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Sometimes all that's required to make sense of things is context.

 

[Black_Wolf]

oh yes, it was the jews that sent 9/11 into motion ..ya that must be it

btw any chance of you listing sources/rationale or is that too much to ask


btw it was the christians

Dont dispaoint me stern.
You dont understand what I mean.
If the US wouldnt support Isreal in the ways they do,or If Isreal didnt even exsist. 9/11 really would have been another date,nothing more.
oh and dont try to provke me with that Christianity is evil stuff.
Im Atheist.

 

[CptStern]

Osama used the first Israeli incursion in Lebanon as a pretext to hit the twin towers.

the US used 9/11 as a pretext to illegally invade iraq

Islamic clerics blame American reality TV for moral and social problems in the Middle-East.

christian fundamentalists blame Sponge Bob for spreading a "gay agenda"

Iranian clerics alledge Tom and Jerry as being Jewish propaganda, showing the Jew as the mouse.

christian fundamentalists say Shrek 2 promotes transgender and homosexual relationships

Ahmadinejad flat out believes he is the Maadi of Islam.

George Bush believes he's a messenger from god, his father thinks atheists are not citizens of the US, his generals think he's appointed by god, and bush himself believes god chose him

Do you see what I'm getting at here? Sometimes all that's required to make sense of things is context.

I agree

 

[Nemesis6]

So you agree that Bin Laden could literally just have pulled stuff out of his smelly ass when it came to reasons to the twin towers? You missed the point of my post: I was providing you with a typical problem for Middle-Eastern countries - Blaming America/whomever, for problems that, in reality, rest solely on their shoulders.

 

[No Limit]

I do agree with you that Israel is a huge reason why there is so much instability in the middle east. However, my problem with your post is that all that crap is just excuses that are used as justification by Osama to attack us. The point of this post is really that Al Queda exists because of people we voted into power, people idiots in this country continue to support. Their policies have continually back fired and have never proved to be right, always wrong. Yet these people continue to get elected and they continue to **** up the world for our children. When will people look past what they were spoon fed in their history classes and actually study the real history of what is going on in this world.

 

[CptStern]

So you agree that Bin Laden could literally just have pulled stuff out of his smelly ass when it came to reasons to the twin towers? You missed the point of my post: I was providing you with a typical problem for Middle-Eastern countries - Blaming America/whomever, for problems that, in reality, rest solely on their shoulders.

there are legitimate beefs with the US ..I'm surprised half of south/central america/parts of africa/eastern europe/middle east/some asian countries arent lining up in front of america's door to get some sort of payback/retribution

 

[MjM]

IMO It comes down to a fundamental issue of political and economic inequality Coupled with POWER. Their is allot of both in the middle east. Peoples with a proud heritage down trodden by european colonial-style-mandates, meddling, and arbitrary imposition of boarders. Couple this with emense oil wealth and sympathy for groups opposed to the wests self-serving stance in the region and you get powerful, motivated and globalised terrorism.

So it means dealing with the region, any region for that matter, as western nations would deal with a fellow western nation. With respect, humanity and fairness.

 

[kathaksung]

kathaksung, I'm not sure I fully understand your post. in the one source you showed are saying the FBI actually wanted this to happen? I don't think they wanted it to happen, I think they simply wantd to entrap these people so that we could have headlines like "worst plot since 9/11 stopped by the great Bush administration".

I would like to see some sources for your other information, kind of hard to take your word for it.

If someone was murdered, who became the suspect? Ask police. Their first work is to find whom will be benefited from the victim's death.

Who benefit from 911 attack? The first thing Ashcroft to do is to submit the "Patriot Act". It was quickly passed even without some law maker reading it. DOJ, FBI, DEA expanded their surveillance power dramatically.

the biggest mind behind Al Qaida is the Inside Group. You can see so said "Al Qaida attack" all benefit to the ruling class, from motives to timing. "911 attack" justified for the Mid-east war by Bush. "Bali bombing and French tanker bombing" aimed to push Australia and France to support Iraq war. "Madrid bombing" aimed to help in election. "London bombing" was used to justify a coming "terror attack in US on 9/24/05". What advantage did Al Qaida gain from these bombings? None. Except a self humiliation that Islamic are savage. (or can you tell me some advantage Al Qaida gain from these bombings?)

 

[No Limit]

So what you are saying is Al Queda had nothing to do with this, it was all the FBI? And you are basing this on no physical evidance, just the fact that they had something to gain? Al Queda had a whole lot to gain, they are now stronger than ever not to mention they wanted Bush in power as the CIA has suggested.

 

[delusional]

crazy conspiracy theorist crazy psycho people kill people for no reason

 

[Ome_Vince]

Yup, Make sure a moron gets into power and you can play him like a piano.

 

[No Limit]

Yup, Make sure a moron gets into power and you can play him like a piano.

Exactly (I'm shocked this is coming from you). Osama Bin Laden released a tape 2 days before the 2004 election. There was no real reason to do this except to help Bush win the election. Not a mention of it in the american media; the news coverage that day was instead something like this:

"Osama Bin Laden Vowes To Attack United States Again, Be Scared, Be Very Very Scared"

"Is Kerry Decisive On Fighting Terrorists"

"Is that a Kerry campaign button Osama is wearing"

 

[Ome_Vince]

^^Shocked? Have i ever supported Bush, said anything good about him or the Iraq war :S?
I even took part in a small demonstration against the Iraq war, along with countless forum-battles battling ppl that supported it.
However, i dont support, what alot of the extremist-lefties do, throwing mud at America for whatever unproven reason or theory they can think of.

 

[No Limit]

^^Shocked? Have i ever supported Bush, said anything good about him or the Iraq war :S?
I even took part in a small demonstration against the Iraq war, along with countless forum-battles battling ppl that supported it.
However, i dont support, what alot of the extremist-lefties do, throwing mud at America for whatever unproven reason or theory they can think of.

You got examples of the left doing this? I would love to actually see anywhere I have done this, I am about as far left as you can get (and proud of it).

I on the other hand don't support what a lot of the extreme neocons do such as not answer simple questions about their support of israel .

 

[Ome_Vince]

hey, i wasnt pointing at you, i'm explaining my pov with regards to Bush and the Iraq War.
I'm refering to dingdongs like the prisonplanet ppl, and any other mindless fools blaiming America, Israel and the West for all the worlds misery, and like true-tv hypocrits sit back and ignore the mass murders/intollerance etc committed by several countries/groups of people they dare not point fingers at, because "America and the West are no better" or "your just being intollerant to other people's culture".
People like one of our Dutch parliament lefties who wanted to reduce punishment for "Honour-Revenge" because it was part of the MidEast Islamic culture. wtf?
I firmly believe in "anything thats extreme is bad" meaning that includes Left-Winger extremists (which they always argue ofcourse )

As for the neocons, who are you refering to?

 

[No Limit]

hey, i wasnt pointing at you, i'm explaining my pov with regards to Bush and the Iraq War.
I'm refering to dingdongs like the prisonplanet ppl, and any other mindless fools blaiming America, Israel and the West for all the worlds misery, and like true-tv hypocrits sit back and ignore the mass murders/intollerance etc committed by several countries/groups of people they dare not point fingers at, because "America and the West are no better" or "your just being intollerant to other people's culture".
People like one of our Dutch parliament lefties who wanted to reduce punishment for "Honour-Revenge" because it was part of the MidEast Islamic culture. wtf?
I firmly believe in "anything thats extreme is bad" meaning that includes Left-Winger extremists (which they always argue ofcourse )

As for the neocons, who are you refering to?

But here is my problem with you throwing the "extreme-left" label around. Extreme left means abolutely nothing. You say people are blaming America for all the worlds problems but do you actually have any examples of this. I have never been to prison planet, I'll check that out but for some reason I am willing to call bullshit about them hating america as much as you elude to.

By neocons I am talking about anyone out there that supports the destruction os pretty much everything that isn't western. I don't know if you fit into that category so let me ask you, what do you think of the neocon ideology?

 

[Ome_Vince]

But here is my problem with you throwing the "extreme-left" label around. Extreme left means abolutely nothing. You say people are blaming America for all the worlds problems but do you actually have any examples of this. I have never been to prison planet, I'll check that out but for some reason I am willing to call bullshit about them hating america as much as you elude to.

By neocons I am talking about anyone out there that supports the destruction os pretty much everything that isn't western. I don't know if you fit into that category so let me ask you, what do you think of the neocon ideology?

Extreme-left means as much as extreme-right, only at the other side of the fence.
Extreme-right wingers often dont have the ability to look at things "from the other side", totally pull things out of proportion or generalise (like nazi's or racists do).
There is no difference with extreme-lefties, only they support another pov.

Note: i am talking extreme here.

Extreme-lefties are just as dangerous as extreme right-wingers, and jump to violance just as often.
READ THIS
Pim Fortuyn was a central/right-winger, one of the smartest i've ever seen though, (even though i never voted for him), got shot dead by a leftist extremist...
Pims views were not racial, or disciminative, his party-lead had a Muslim funny enough. Though the extremo-wako leftists held a "he is a nazi" campaign to counter his succes (pull the "He is Hitler" card and you destroy a candidate) , and when that didnt work some wako shot him.

Now, there's more examples of violant attacks, especially by left-wing animal rights groups who sabotage things "in the name of nature" (funny enough i sponsor Greenpeace, whom i generally havent seen doing any of that crap)

As for your neocon thing. I guess you have to start reading what i'm actually saying in various topics. i have NEVER said anything in that direction, or EVER supported such views.
My fight nowadays is often with leftists, but that doesnt mean people can shove me into a "right-wing corner".
Last year my internet "battles" were mainly at right-wingers over Bush, or the Iraq war.
I aim at intollerance and fanatasism, and this comes from both many extreme left and right-wingers.

And i am not a hypocrit who only points fingers at "white-racists" or "supremists" but also at Islam or black people having similar views.
Funny enough, pointing at a colored person or somebody with another religion and saying "you dickheads should stop your fascist views" often gets you shoved into the right-wing corner. What a laugh.
So in short, i am not a neocon, and i'm deeply dissapointed if thats what you thought...

 

[kathaksung]

So what you are saying is Al Queda had nothing to do with this, it was all the FBI? And you are basing this on no physical evidance, just the fact that they had something to gain? Al Queda had a whole lot to gain, they are now stronger than ever not to mention they wanted Bush in power as the CIA has suggested.

Al qaida get stronger is the evidence?
If Al Qaida is manipulated by US intelligence, then if it gets stronger, it means US intelligence is getting stronger. Which proves nothing.

I have said, "Because the biggest mind behind Al Qaida is the Inside Group. You can see so said "Al Qaida attack" all benefit to the ruling class, from motives to timing. "911 attack" justified for the Mid-east war by Bush. "Bali bombing and French tanker bombing" aimed to push Australia and France to support Iraq war. "Madrid bombing" aimed to help in election. "London bombing" was used to justify a coming "terror attack in US on 9/24/05". What advantage did Al Qaida gain from these bombings? None. Except a self humiliation that Islamic are savage. (or anyone can tell me some advantage Al Qaida gain from these bombings?)"

These are facts. Who benefits from it is clear. That is evidence. They target at civilians. The purpose was clear too. To demonize Islam and provoke the people to support "war on terror". How could Al Qaida to demonize themselves? What's good to provoke the people all over the world to oppose themselves? Think with your brain.

Also repeat: Why FBI guide the terror cell to attack FBI office.

(1) On 5/31/02, I wrote that Feds was behind OKC bombing.
Re: The motive of OKC bombing by McVeigh is to revenge government's injustice in Waco. His target was FBI and BATF in Murrah Federal Building. Yet on that day, all staffs of FBI and BATF were absent. They knew the bombing in advance. Other federal employees became scapegoat. see "(68. Ashcroft's revenge (5/31/02))"

(2) A response to cover up my allegation. On 10/14/02, they shot a FBI staff to death to quit the allegation that FBI was behind DC sniper shooting spree.

Re: 10/2/02, Bill to authorize the use of armed force against Iraq was present to the House. 10/11/02, Senator passed the bill.
Same day on 10/2, sniper started his first shoot, within 10 days to 10/11, there were 11 shoots. This is action period. Purposed to intimidate law makers to pass the bill.

10/12 to 10/24, a retreat period. 3 shootings in 13 days period. to cover up the retreat.
10/14, 12th shooting. FBI staff Linda Franklin was shot to death. (a tactic of "Thief cried "thieves". "I am the victim. I am not the perpetrator". )
10/19, 13th shooting came with a demand of ransom. Plant the shooting spree a motive.
10/23, 14th shooting followed by the arrest of Muhammad and Malvo to finish the case. (see #128 and #129)

(3) Miami case. FBI guided terror cell to aim at FBI office resembles to the shooting death of FBI staff Linda Franklin. A tactic to avoid the profile of a perpetrator but remain more like a victim when the bombing happens. It originates from OKC bombing.

 

[CptStern]

no those are not facts ..it's speculatative drivel

so let me get this straight ..US operatives bombed the madrid subway to aid the election? that's all nice but you forgot who won ...Zapatero ..who ran on a platform of removing spanish troops from iraq. After the bombing support for zapatero increased ...so how again was this supposed to make Spain back the war? especially since bush compadre Aznar wasnt even running in the election as he had stepped down? And if Aznar was in cahoots with bush why would his parti popular blame ETA for the bombings? and continued to insist it was ETA right up to election day

 

[kirovman]

lol

 

[Tr0n]

lol