Why bush's new imigration plan *IS* a good idea.

[waedoe]

hey guys yes its waedoe, one of the imfamous republicans on this thread. I have come to review and watch bush's recent moves on mexican imigration. I have strong hopes for this new proposal, not only does it keep money from leaving our country (illegal immigrants sending money to thier loved ones in mexico.) It also allows us to keep a better track on who is and isnt coming into our borders. I.E. it will help stop terrorism immigration possibly coming from the mexican borders.

Plz disscuss this matter in a grown up way (Looks at LIL'TIMMY)

 

[crabcakes66]

Oh man....there are a million reasons i disagree with bush's plan(along with alot of republicans im sure)

....ive met my quota for religious/political threads today...mabey later.

 

[Korgoth]

Nope its not a good idea, lol how much money do you think illegal immigrants send home to their families ahahaha, we are struggling to find american jobs as is, you think opening the borders to everyone (in a sense) is going to make it any easier for naturals or legal immigrants to find work? I think its unfair for the people who are working to gain legal citizenship.

 

[waedoe]

Nope its not a good idea, lol how much money do you think illegal immigrants send home to their families ahahaha, we are struggling to find american jobs as is, you think opening the borders to everyone (in a sense) is going to make it any easier for naturals or legal immigrants to find work? I think its unfair for the people who are working to gain legal citizenship.

there are jobs that even the lowest american wont take. example: apple picking, cotton picking. and other lowly jobs like that. You have to wake up and relize that some one has to fill our sectors that americans wont take.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I'm very disappointed with Bush's recent Immigration Plan.
Actually, it's not that recent. Bush was talking with the Presidente of Mexico about this shortly after goiing into office. Of course the incident with China, and 9/11 made it seem miniscule. Honestly, I think it's a vote move. There's no reason for him to be doing that. Why would we need better relations with a country having problems getting it's Police forces not to beat and rape women walking along the street?

 

[waedoe]

I'm very disappointed with Bush's recent Immigration Plan.
Actually, it's not that recent. Bush was talking with the Presidente of Mexico about this shortly after goiing into office. Of course the incident with China, and 9/11 made it see miniscule. Honestly, I think it's a vote move. There's no reason for him to be doing that. Why would we need better relations with a country having problems getting it's Police forces not to beat and rape women walking along the street?

acctually over all, id rather see us take over mexico and get this stuff all said and done. but NOOB liberals wont allow that. liberals would rather have all other 3rd world countries by them selves rather than have a DEMOCRATIC nation absorb them. IF YOU LIBERALS HAVENT NOTICED AMERICA IS A MELTING POT FOR CULTURES, ITS NOT ONE ETHNICITIES COUNTRY....

 

[Korgoth]

lol noob liberals, oh and what about communism what if it absorbed everything, what if hitler abosorbed everything? Man a seperated free world is a good idea, one government one world is not!
Do you realize what that would mean?

 

[Fat Tony!]

Excuse my complete ignorance but i havent heard of this before, is this some american secret plan or something, tell me it is so i dont look stupid :thumbs:

 

[gh0st]

hey guys its not like illegal immigrants just ambush us and take our jobs. if someone is willing to work harder for less i say, get off your lazy standard issue american arses and get a job with some sescurity.

 

[Arno]

not only does it keep money from leaving our country (illegal immigrants sending money to thier loved ones in mexico.)

Nope, legal immigrants earn more money and thus send even more money to their loved ones in Mexico. Legal or illegal, they will keep supporting their families at home.

It also allows us to keep a better track on who is and isnt coming into our borders. I.E. it will help stop terrorism immigration possibly coming from the mexican borders.

No, the legalisation only applies to immigrants that are already in the US. Soon new hordes of illegal immigrants will arrive, attracted by the weakened immigration laws of the US.

 

[CokeLite]

^^Reads The Best Page In The Universe.


Anyway I am a republican and conservative and I have to admit that this plan is the first time ive disagreed with Bush so far. I can see where he is going with it but the problem is now if this happens all the other people in Mexico will see this and then they will want to try to sneak in also. You should not reward people for breaking the law and sneaking over in the first place.

 

[OCybrManO]

1) Whether or not we know how many of them are here and where they are won't affect the amount of money they send back to Mexico.

2) It won't stop any terrorism... if anything it might make it easier.

there are jobs that even the lowest american wont take. example: apple picking, cotton picking. and other lowly jobs like that. You have to wake up and relize that some one has to fill our sectors that americans wont take.

3) Apparently you don't know any poor Americans (which might explain the ultra-conservative views). The reason the Mexican workers get more of the crap jobs like those is that they come from worse conditions and it is a step up for them... even if they get paid below minimum wage (which many of them do).

4) Even more money would end up leaving the US because for the employers to keep from getting in trouble they would have to at least give the now-legal immigrants minimum wage... which is a big step up from what they make now. That is also a reason why US workers can't beat illegal immigrants. A company doesn't want to risk hiring a US worker at below minimum wage because they could sue the company. Whereas an illegal immigrant can't do anything about it without getting themselves deported.

EDIT: I forgot to ask what the hell waedoe was smoking when he wrote that Nazi-like plan to absorb Mexico.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

lol noob liberals, oh and what about communism what if it absorbed everything, what if hitler abosorbed everything? Man a seperated free world is a good idea, one government one world is not!
Do you realize what that would mean?

Yeah, a One World Govt. is a very bad idea, even if it is American.
In the end, it would cease to be my beloved Democracy, and would become totalitarianistic. One World Govt. means One World Leader.

Innervision, have you checked your PMs?

 

[Korgoth]

nope i'll get right on it ghostvalk we agree on an issue, its kinda nice for a change

 

[gh0st]

props for the maddox comment

3) Apparently you don't know any poor Americans (which might explain the ultra-conservative views). The reason the Mexican workers get more of the crap jobs like those is that they come from worse conditions and it is a step up for them... even if they get paid below minimum wage (which many of them do).

4) Even more money would end up leaving the US because for the employers to keep from getting in trouble they would have to at least give the now-legal immigrants minimum wage... which is a big step up from what they make now. That is also a reason why US workers can't beat illegal immigrants. A company doesn't want to risk hiring a US worker at below minimum wage because they could sue the company. Whereas an illegal immigrant can't do anything about it without getting themselves deported.

regardless of more money leaving the us, how is it right that illegal immigrants have to struggle to support their families while scrubbing up poop. if legislation like this is legalized it FINALLY gives many of them rights that they do deserve. there are STILL going to be janiters, etc but they will get basic rights, and frankly everyone should get that.

this legilsation only gives immigrants the right to work for a halfassed wage, and basic medial rights. its not like more drugs or anything will come into the country... and thei citizenship isnt permanent either.

"That is also a reason why US workers can't beat illegal immigrants."

astonishing. you seem to think that every job in america is a blue collar industrial job. id like to see an illegal immigrant get a job at microsoft, or even wal*mart. big companies dont like to involve themselves in such libel, so i doubt that your opinion holds any water.

as a note, im not sure if your for or against this...

 

[gh0st]

Nope its not a good idea, lol how much money do you think illegal immigrants send home to their families ahahaha, we are struggling to find american jobs as is, you think opening the borders to everyone (in a sense) is going to make it any easier for naturals or legal immigrants to find work? I think its unfair for the people who are working to gain legal citizenship.

actually quite a lot of people send money back to their famlies, its a fairly commonplace occurance.

"we" are not struggling to find anything. im FIFTEEN and i work, and my job hasent been taken away by a 30 year old illegal immigrant.

 

[Korgoth]

No but i've had a job outsourced for cheaper labor. Its pretty bad, whatever happened to made in america? GI joe, the real american hero is made in china, does anyone else see the irony?

 

[gh0st]

i didnt even know they still made GI joe.

outsourcing is usually a seperate issue. outsourcing is when they move manufactoring or other parts of a business to a different country (like india, which seems to be getting lots of tech outsources from us). cheaper labor doesnt mean illegal immigrant. and besides, even if it WAS outsourced to illegal immigrants they would still be getting paid the same wages as you would (if they werent, it would be descrimination) <-- bushes bill would accomplish this

 

[Korgoth]

i know what oursource means, thats what i meant.

 

[gh0st]

ok.. but what does outsourcing have to do with illegal immigrants coming into the country (practically) freely?

 

[Korgoth]

point is its hard enough to find a job as it is!

 

[gh0st]

1) im assuming you have a better education than most illegal immigrants
2) you and them would be getting EXACLTY THE SAME PAY (so they lose that "advantage")
3) wouldent you recieve precendence with some vestige of a resume over an immigrants...nothing?

how do illegal immigrants effect what job you choose to have? if you really want a job you will work your ass off for one.

i scrub baked on pig fat off of meat grills, and i dont whine about it - its like 2 inches thick, and i smell like bleach and rotten pig all the time. all that for 8.12 an hour, AND i go to school full time, with extra classes. if you really want money you will make a more concerned effort to advance yourself. dont blame some immigrant for jacking your job.. jeez. its so typical for people to blame other people for a failure they make. if it isnt bush, its immigrants. and im SURE it will be something after that.

 

[Korgoth]

if they already have the job they can't be terminated that would be discrimination as well, any more competition in the job market escpecially around here would be a major pain in the ass, and i've done basically the same thing you just described only i was making 5.15 an hour so don't even say i'm too picky bud you don't know half the crap i've been through at some jobs, then i was lucky enough to get a job in the tech sector around here making web pages and bam they outsource to some guy in india who can do the flash work cheaper than me. It sucks

 

[gh0st]

washington has the highest miniumum wage in the country, which is why im paid what i am. again outsourcing has nothing to do with illegal immigrants.

im curious, is the legislation ONLY for people here now, or is it for people coming in a well?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

The point is that they should earn the right to stay over here, as many others have.
Look at Mr. Reak, he's working toward citizenship. Good man, Reak!
Living in Texas with the number we carry now is bad enough, thousands more would be f*cking hell. Jeez, the State Dept. doesn't do it's job anyway. How do you think the terrorists got on those planes? Their Work Visas were expired, yet they hadn't been deported. A bunch of Illegal Immigrants, not paying taxes, not learning English, getting Govt. aid from my tax dollars are the last things we need.

I knew this one guy when I worked at Mexican Inn.
All he ever talked about was Mexico this, Mexico that...yet, it was America that was paying for his education, America that was helping out with his bills, and America that helped give him the racial quota to easily find a job. If you ask me, they have more than enough already. They don't even appreciate it. When I asked that guy if he likes America he said, "No, why should I? You all live life to fast, and it's stressful. Mexico is better." You give people too much and they'll take it for granted.

Here's something I suggest to all wishing to illegally come to the US.

1. It's the US that you're coming to, so STFU about how much better home was...it obviously wasn't that good if you left.

2. Don't tell me we live life too fast, if anything, you live life too slow. If you don't like it - Leave.

3. Don't brag about your countries economy, especially if it's 9th place(Mexico), the only economies that matter are top 5, if even that many.

4. Stop leeching. My tax dollars could've gone to fund a better cause than you going to college, only to give my nation the middle finger and slurs.

5. For the love of God, SPEAK ENGLISH! If I go to your country, I'd damn well better speak your language - What makes you think I should cater to you? Why sohld I speak Spanish if you can't speak American. Stop throwing tantrums, you babies. Oh, and I have plenty of Mexican friends that don't even sound Mexican.
Take a lesson from them please.

That's the end of my rant. I know it would probably offend someone, but they'd have to be able to read English to get offended.

 

[OCybrManO]

"if it isnt bush, its immigrants. and im SURE it will be something after that."
People will complain about things until there is nothing valid to complain about. Is there not one thing about this country that you dislike? If you can't see anything bad about the US you probably have your eyes closed.

For manual labor, big companies don't care if you went to college or even high school (hell, it doesn't even matter if you speak english)... they just give it to the person willing to work the hardest for the lowest amount of money. There would be no problem with illegal immigrants taking people's jobs if the business practices were remedied. Why is it that Japanese manufacturers in the US that hire American citizens can make the same products and still make a plenty of profit while American companies have to resort to using cheap (sometimes 20% of "minimum" wage or less), illegal labor? Why does the person that does the most physically demanding work (that no one else is willing to do) get the worst salary? Things like that should be fixed before taking measures like Bush is doing now.

When did I say the whole labor force is blue collar workers? Never, if I remember correctly... but the blue collar worker is the backbone of the economy. The entire country would collapse without them. Who makes practically everything we buy? Cheap labor. Who gets most of the money from those products? A small group of people that sit on their asses all day and exploit them. There's something wrong with that picture. Adding more unskilled labor will just increase the competition between workers even more when that's the problem in the first place. The more workers there are the less each worker gets paid. No person should have to work 3 full-time jobs just to barely get by... and I've known people in that situation. The government should go after the big businesses first and try to straighten them out... but I doubt that will happen unless the government is cleaned up first.

I don't know... the more I think about politics and economics, the more apathetic I get. No one is going to do anything that will actually help. Everyone looks for quick fixes when there are none. I'm sad now. I hate people.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

well, i don't know why waedoe is looking at me (i hope it's not sexual).. but obviously, i smelled big-business all over this to begin with (since bush is essentially puppet thereof, imo). personally, i've always been rather uncertain about how to deal with illegal immigration. some thoughts:

not that the american people are generally (or even usually) a barometer for 'the right thing', but for many people, this proposal will further corrode faith in government by granting special concessions to those who broke the law to get here, sending the same message as previous amnesties: if you can make it over the border, you will eventually be granted legal recognition.

however, the potential economic impact is what really concerns me. this proposal will lower wages for all unskilled workers, both immigrants and natives. black americans will pay an especially high price for the lowering of wages due to the regularization of illegal immigrants. so will most legal immigrants. also, the proposal provides legal status for a temporary time period and is completely separated from the normal green card process. so, if you are working now, and your desire is to stay permanently, why would you "out yourself" to the authorities and risk deportation after three years?

bush's cheap labor plan might create a new underclass, but what it won't do is stop illegal immigration. small- and medium-sized employers (think construction and landscaping) benefit from employing illegals not just by paying them less, but by not paying the employer share of payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, and all the other line items. wal-mart might like this, plan, but it won't eliminate the illegal worker demand. illegal immigration is a huge problem, sure, but i can't see how this is going to be good for anyone; it'll just make matters worse from what i can tell..

what's interesting is that the uproar over the whitehouse's proposal for immigration reform has highlighted a rift within the "american right": between its corporate element, whose primary interest lies in exploiting the low wages that immigrants provide, and its ideological element, which sees immigrants as part of some 'evil brown tide' on the verge of swamping the majority white culture. that bush's strongly corporatist move has made the idealogical conservatives feel betrayed is pretty funny to me.

just some thoughts..

 

[Fender357]

there are jobs that even the lowest american wont take. example: apple picking, cotton picking. and other lowly jobs like that. You have to wake up and relize that some one has to fill our sectors that americans wont take.

If i lived somwhere where they had farms and stuff I would pick apples.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

OMG, I feel so dumb. I can't believe I said speak American, when it was the very thing I had been trying to avoid. As many of you have probably gathered, I meant to say English.

Anyway - Speak English.

 

[fizzlephox]

cheaper labor doesnt mean illegal immigrant. and besides, even if it WAS outsourced to illegal immigrants they would still be getting paid the same wages as you would (if they werent, it would be descrimination) <-- bushes bill would accomplish this

No. Why would companies send jobs to India if they'd have to pay people over there the exact same wages? They get to pay them less and don't have to worry about all those pesky health insurance plans and everything else an American would have to have. It all comes down to the fact that they can make more money by not hiring Americans.

Oh look it's a law/bill/something, so corporate America must follow it and they will and the world will be fair and rich people wouldn't care about profits over people.

 

[gh0st]

laws like this have occured before. in 86 i think there was an act that granted citzenship to something like 5 million illegal immigrants.

anyway. upon reading some of these posts (after deciphering timmys big words) and reading into this a little bit more deeply (my previous posts were on top of my head knowlege of immigration) i think its a pretty bad idea. it just opens up exploitation of immigrants, because they are now dependent upon their bosses to get visa's... that isnt right. it also annoys me that bush says

"...citizenship must not be the automatic reward for violating the laws of America."

i dont understand though isnt this that reward? actually, before this i used to want to close our borders entirely, and make immigration much more difficult. you know, only people who REALLY wanted it would be able to be a citizen of america... i think i gotta retake that stance after this.

i also think its stupid that it only applies to mexicans, and not europeans, canadians whatever.

yet on the other hand, im all for workers rights but maybe this isnt the way to get those either.

 

[crabcakes66]

actually quite a lot of people send money back to their famlies, its a fairly commonplace occurance.

"we" are not struggling to find anything. im FIFTEEN and i work, and my job hasent been taken away by a 30 year old illegal immigrant.

Do you support a family? Didnt think so.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

laws like this have occured before. in 86 i think there was an act that granted citzenship to something like 5 million illegal immigrants.

anyway. upon reading some of these posts (after deciphering timmys big words) and reading into this a little bit more deeply (my previous posts were on top of my head knowlege of immigration) i think its a pretty bad idea. it just opens up exploitation of immigrants, because they are now dependent upon their bosses to get visa's... that isnt right. it also annoys me that bush says

"...citizenship must not be the automatic reward for violating the laws of America."

i dont understand though isnt this that reward? actually, before this i used to want to close our borders entirely, and make immigration much more difficult. you know, only people who REALLY wanted it would be able to be a citizen of america... i think i gotta retake that stance after this.

i also think its stupid that it only applies to mexicans, and not europeans, canadians whatever.

yet on the other hand, im all for workers rights but maybe this isnt the way to get those either.

Dude, look back 5 years. Clinton gathered a bunch of border-jumpers into a Baseball stadium and granted them citizenship. It's a vote move, simple as that.
I don't like it, but it's not unusual. Presidents have done this many times before, and will continue to. The only thing is that this may actually hurt Bush because many Conservatives and even a large score or Liberals don't like seeing people illegally enter the country, especially after 9/11; Knowing that some of the terrorists jumped the Mexican border.

 

[gh0st]

Do you support a family? Didnt think so.

do you support a family, big 22 year old? how many kids do you have... 5? didnt think so. i dont need to support a family to watch dateline, chump.

 

[gh0st]

Dude, look back 5 years. Clinton gathered a bunch of border-jumpers into a Baseball stadium and granted them citizenship. It's a vote move, simple as that.
I don't like it, but it's not unusual. Presidents have done this many times before, and will continue to. The only thing is that this may actually hurt Bush because many Conservatives and even a large score or Liberals don't like seeing people illegally enter the country, especially after 9/11; Knowing that some of the terrorists jumped the Mexican border.

in case you didnt notice im DISAGREEING with it.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

do you support a family, big 22 year old? how many kids do you have... 5? didnt think so. i dont need to support a family to watch dateline, chump.

Just because he may not be a father, or head of household, doesn't mean he doesn't help support his family.

I help support my family. I always go out to by food, and other goods for all of us.
I didn't like Illegal Immigrants when I was your age, and I really don't like them now. When your job is what helps keep you alive, then you'll realize how dangerous they are to your survival.

 

[gh0st]

just because IM not a father, or ahead of household doesnt mean i dont help support my family. i DO pay for a bunch of stuff, there being 1 parent. crabcakes just a dick, and he always has to chime in to piss on me, so i said that as much out of spite for him as i did for me.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

in case you didnt notice im DISAGREEING with it.

I wasn't saying that, I was only saying it hasn't been long since the last time this type of thing happened.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

just because IM not a father, or ahead of household doesnt mean i dont help support my family. i DO pay for a bunch of stuff, there being 1 parent. crabcakes just a dick, and he always has to chime in to piss on me, so i said that as much out of spite for him as i did for me.

Okay then.

 

[fizzlephox]

do you support a family, big 22 year old? how many kids do you have... 5? didnt think so. i dont need to support a family to watch dateline, chump.

ummm... He never stated that he supported a family, just that you shouldn't judge people who do since you know nothing of what it's like. Then you answer your own question and call him a chump, that was a little arrogant.

Oh yeah then later you call him a dick...

Comments like these don't make you any more mature.