Why treat your fans like this?

[iamaelephant]

Actually, ATI payed Valve for the deal. So, even if you want to argue they don't owe me personally (I disagree anyway), there's no denying they sure as shit owe ATI the game they payed big money for.

 

[thefiznut]

Actually, ATI payed Valve for the deal. So, even if you want to argue they don't owe me personally (I disagree anyway), there's no denying they sure as shit owe ATI the game they payed big money for.

Sure, but that's not what we were arguing.

 

[iamaelephant]

its tuesday. and no word from valve

Tuesday only lasts another 5 hours in New Zealand ;(

:cheese: :afro:

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

To my knowledge, none of you have actually paid Valve for HL2. Therefore, you're not entitled to it.

Valve just can't win with this community -f you demand to have release dates, and then bitch if Valve don't meet them.

I strongly suspect that most of you have little to no idea of how development works, especially with regard to releases. All the good will in the world won't stop that last-minute showstopper bug appearing.

Any of you that treat any release date from any developer as anything other than a rough guideline are severely deluded.

 

[thefiznut]

To my knowledge, none of you have actually paid Valve for HL2. Therefore, you're not entitled to it.

Valve just can't win with this community -f you demand to have release dates, and then bitch if Valve don't meet them.

I strongly suspect that most of you have little to no idea of how development works, especially with regard to releases. All the good will in the world won't stop that last-minute showstopper bug appearing.

Any of you that treat any release date from any developer as anything other than a rough guideline are severely deluded.

Exactly what i've been trying to tell them. They just don't seem to get it though. :sniper:

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

I agree with Pi, but that won't stop the little 13 year olds saying they deserve everything.

 

[Wesisapie]

i just come on the forums whenever a so called deadline has just passed, because i know valve will have missed it and it's just funny to see the arguments it causes. one day they might amaze me and make a deadline, but until then im happy with the amusement.

they damaged me way back when it mattered, but nothing seems important anymore

 

[poseyjmac]

To my knowledge, none of you have actually paid Valve for HL2. Therefore, you're not entitled to it.

Valve just can't win with this community -f you demand to have release dates, and then bitch if Valve don't meet them.

I strongly suspect that most of you have little to no idea of how development works, especially with regard to releases. All the good will in the world won't stop that last-minute showstopper bug appearing.

Any of you that treat any release date from any developer as anything other than a rough guideline are severely deluded.

but they said that the hl2 preload content was READY, the only thing they were going to do is wait for some more bandwidth. so its not about showstopping bugs, or if we know how the development process works. if every developer was like valve , then it wouldn't be a big deal, we would say, ok thats how the business works. BUT there are many good companies out there that don't do the crap that valve does to its communities, and as a result a very happy community.

 

[DarkStar]

I'm seriously surprised that Valve even gives out ANY kind of release dates anymore. If I were them I'd just stop.

 

[spitcodfry]

Any of you that treat any release date from any developer as anything other than a rough guideline are severely deluded.

Yeah, what were we thinking? A game company gives dates for releases and makes little to none of them (Steam updates etc). It's one thing for them to hint at several release happenings (HL-2 pre-load, HL-2 release date) but almost every Steam update? They need to shut their mouth and just release news bulletins for things once they're done. It pisses me off when people buy into the dates that retailers give out, seeing as how they aren't in the loop. That sort of situation calls for criticism towards the backlashers. This doesn't. This is coming from the source: the developer: Valve! You can't say in this situation 'Only the game company knows when it's done'. Apparently in this situation they (Valve) don't.

I can't think of too many other game companies that proclaim this abundance of release information as it pertains to almost every little update. They keep it in the dark until things are ready to go. Just like Valve should!

 

[genocide604]

If valve wants to be hoes, let em. The game will still come out, and i will still be satisfied until the next game..

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Right, so if you all know that Valve miss every release date they ever give, then why are you always so surprised when it happens?

You people are unbelievable.

They need to shut their mouth and just release news bulletins for things once they're done

As I already stated, that wouldn't work. The "community" would keep constantly bitching that Valve never tell them anything, all they want is a release date etc.

 

[poseyjmac]

Right, so if you all know that Valve miss every release date they ever give, then why are you always so surprised when it happens?

You people are unbelievable.



As I already stated, that wouldn't work. The "community" would keep constantly bitching that Valve never tell them anything, all they want is a release date etc.

right, now look at the duke nukem forever community, they don't get any dates from 3drealms, but they aren't up in arms. whys that?

and i dont think many people here were surprised at all, we would be surprised if they actually met a date

 

[alan8325]

Right, so if you all know that Valve miss every release date they ever give, then why are you always so surprised when it happens?

You people are unbelievable.



As I already stated, that wouldn't work. The "community" would keep constantly bitching that Valve never tell them anything, all they want is a release date etc.

I guess the only solution then is to give very conservative release dates rather than optimistic ones. For example, if they are sure that they will have something done by August 24th, say the release date is September 10th.

And for HL2 as a whole, last year they could have just crossed out 2003 and put 2004 for it's release date.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I'm not talking about the DNF community. I'm talking about this community.

Valve are without a doubt, the most community-centric developer around. They answer so many questions, give so much information.

On the other hand, you guys are like a bunch of spoiled brats that didn't get the present they wanted at Christmas.

Waaa! Waaa! I can't have my preload (that I can't actually do anything with but I still want it) Waaa!

 

[thefiznut]

Yeah, what were we thinking? A game company gives dates for releases and makes little to none of them (Steam updates etc). It's one thing for them to hint at several release happenings (HL-2 pre-load, HL-2 release date) but almost every Steam update? They need to shut their mouth and just release news bulletins for things once they're done. It pisses me off when people buy into the dates that retailers give out, seeing as how they aren't in the loop. That sort of situation calls for criticism towards the backlashers. This doesn't. This is coming from the source: the developer: Valve! You can't say in this situation 'Only the game company knows when it's done'. Apparently in this situation they (Valve) don't.

I can't think of too many other game companies that proclaim this abundance of release information as it pertains to almost every little update. They keep it in the dark until things are ready to go. Just like Valve should!

And unfortunately the HL/HL2 community is one of the most demanding of all the game communities. People are constantly wanting to know when things are going to happen, putting the pressure on Valve to tell us more and more. We bombard them with emails wanting to know what, when, where, why, and how. We're almost like the child on vacation who can't stop asking how long it's going to be before he gets to the destination. But oh no, we've got what we requested, a date! I know it's not all of us who are responsible for the bickering and questioning, but unfortunately a large part of our community is. Dates from Valve are simply the end result of our wanting to know, and because of that we should not take them seriously.

 

[spitcodfry]

Right, so if you all know that Valve miss every release date they ever give, then why are you always so surprised when it happens?

You people are unbelievable.



As I already stated, that wouldn't work. The "community" would keep constantly bitching that Valve never tell them anything, all they want is a release date etc.

Believe me I haven't been crossing my fingers for any of these 'dates'. I've been used to this sort of thing from them for a while now, as have many others. As soon as I saw the pre-load date, I thought 'wonder how long after that date until it actually starts'. I know it would be better if we all just bowed our heads and let Valve do their little PR dance with us, but would it not be better if they made announcements for the actual release of things instead of 'it will be here on x day'? The only date from them that I expect to be followed through will be the retail date which will be set once the game goes gold, and that's only because Vivendi will be in charge of it, not them. I trust an international distributor at getting their shipments in when they say they're going to be ready rather than the team that made the product. Is asking Valve to just can it with these speculative dates too much? Shut yer yap!

 

[DarkStar]

Woah.....I think everyone just needs to COOL OUT!

 

[iamaelephant]

Right, so if you all know that Valve miss every release date they ever give, then why are you always so surprised when it happens?

You people are unbelievable.

When I'm at work, if I miss every single deadline for an entire year, does this mean that from now on every customer has no right to be pissed off, just because I've been a dumbass in the past? No. Fact is, Valve need to get their shit together.

You claim that every developer is the same, which is total rubbish and you know it. I have never heard of a game developer that has missed so many release dates, and lied to the community so much, as Valve has. Never.

Get your head out of your ass. Valve simply suck at release dates.

 

[poseyjmac]

I'm not talking about the DNF community. I'm talking about this community.

Valve are without a doubt, the most community-centric developer around. They answer so many questions, give so much information.

On the other hand, you guys are like a bunch of spoiled brats that didn't get the present they wanted at Christmas.

Waaa! Waaa! I can't have my preload (that I can't actually do anything with but I still want it) Waaa!

and im saying look at the DNF community AS AN EXAMPLE. they get NOTHING. i repeat NOTHING in terms of dates, george does talk to them sometimes, but they are cool and collective, not up in arms like people can get in the hl2 community. its because they dont' get jerked around. they've learned to accept 'when its done'.

even though valve does stuff right, they have their weaknesses, why do you think their good makes their bad disappear? some companies have it both ways.

if it werent for companies like bioware or blizzard, then maybe we would just accept valve, but game companies can accomplish the task of making the community happy.

haha, i saw that pi.

 

[thefiznut]

When I'm at work, if I miss every single deadline for an entire year, does this mean that from now on every customer has no right to be pissed off, just because I've been a dumbass in the past? No. Fact is, Valve need to get their shit together.

You claim that every developer is the same, which is total rubbish and you know it. I have never heard of a game developer that has missed so many release dates, and lied to the community so much, as Valve has. Never.

Get your head out of your ass. Valve simply suck at release dates.

Valve's a unique case. We're the most verbal and demanding of any community. I'm guessing this is mostly due to the sheer size. Give them credit for atleast trying to fulfill our demands of wanting to know.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

When I'm at work, if I miss every single deadline for an entire year, does this mean that from now on every customer has no right to be pissed off, just because I've been a dumbass in the past? No. Fact is, Valve need to get their shit together.

That depends entirely on the product/service being offered. No-one has paid Valve for a copy of HL2 yet.

You claim that every developer is the same, which is total rubbish and you know it. I have never heard of a game developer that has missed so many release dates,

Don't presume to tell me what I do and don't know. Thanks.
And don't twist my words either - I didn't say all developers are the same. I said that developers miss release dates. They're not set in stone. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

and lied to the community so much, as Valve has. Never.

Missing a release date isn't the same as lieing.

Get your head out of your ass.

I disagree with you, therefore my head must be up my ass? Good logic!

Valve simply suck at release dates.

I never said otherwise. I just object to the precious, prissy, childish reactions.

 

[Logic]

I'll add to the chorus of voices saying "Valve owes us nothing". They may not have the best PR at times, and they've certainly made mistakes, but that has no effect on their talent and ability to make great games. I guess it's only natural that there will be fans so hyped up about the game that they'll get worked up about things, and feel severely hurt when the slightest thing goes wrong, but that's life. Things do go wrong (and much worse things than a game missing a deadline). People do make mistakes. I'm as big a HL fan as anyone, and HL2 means a lot to me, but if you look at the situation with some perspective and maturity, it becomes obvious that getting worked up about things does nothing but make you feel worse. It won't change the way Valve operates, nor will it get the game out sooner. We're lucky to be getting something as (hopefully) great as HL2 at all.

"There's no pleasing some people"

"That's just what Jesus said, Sir"

 

[thefiznut]

I'll add to the chorus of voices saying "Valve owes us nothing". They may not have the best PR at times, and they've certainly made mistakes, but that has no effect on their talent and ability to make great games. I guess it's only natural that there will be fans so hyped up about the game that they'll get worked up about things, and feel severely hurt when the slightest thing goes wrong, but that's life. Things do go wrong (and much worse things than a game missing a deadline). People do make mistakes. I'm as big a HL fan as anyone, and HL2 means a lot to me, but if you look at the situation with some perspective and maturity, it becomes obvious that getting worked up about things does nothing but make you feel worse. It won't change the way Valve operates, nor will it get the game out sooner. We're lucky to be getting something as (hopefully) great as HL2 at all.

"There's no pleasing some people"

"That's just what Jesus said, Sir"

So true. For the first time, i'll quote for emphasis.

 

[matthewryanc]

That depends entirely on the product/service being offered. No-one has paid Valve for a copy of HL2 yet.

I never said otherwise. I just object to the precious, prissy, childish reactions.

I prebuy my copy of half life 2, which EB then prebuys a copy for me.


OR


ATI purchases bundling rights to half life 2, which means that they have already purchased licenses to the game.


BTW, nice finish, internet tough guy... got any other names to call people?

 

[poseyjmac]

Valve's a unique case. We're the most verbal and demanding of any community. I'm guessing this is mostly due to the sheer size. Give them credit for atleast trying to fulfill our demands of wanting to know.

the most verbal and demanding yes. but there is a reason which is related to parenting. heres a metaphor:

you show an ice cream cone to a kid and he will be more excited about it. if you constantly take it away though when waving it in front of his face, do you expect him to just act normal? no the kid will say "what the ****!" and be grounded for swearing.

on the other hand the parent who tells the kid once that he can have icecream on the weekend, he may want it, but its so far away that hes not going to act as crazy as the first kid.

same thing here, valve put the icecream in front of our faces and because of sep30th 2003, made us bitchy, then continually valve did it again and again, until the community did evolve into the most vocal and bothered community ever. no doot aboot it

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I prebuy my copy of half life 2, which EB then prebuys a copy for me.

Valve see no money from preorders until the game is released.

ATI purchases bundling rights to half life 2, which means that they have already purchased licenses to the game.

If you got a voucher with an ATI card, then you didn't purchase HL2, did you?

BTW, nice finish, internet tough guy... got any other names to call people?

I don't resort to namecalling, ever. What I did was describe people's reactions. Quite accurately, too, I'd say. Surely it could only be construed as offensive if it describes you?

 

[thefiznut]

I prebuy my copy of half life 2, which EB then prebuys a copy for me.


OR


ATI purchases bundling rights to half life 2, which means that they have already purchased licenses to the game.


BTW, nice finish, internet tough guy... got any other names to call people?

EB or any other game store does not prebuy a copy for you. They patiently await the distrobution of the game to stores. Only then does the money you give them go torward the purchase of the game and handout to you. The money you give them only gives you dibs on the first copies to be distributed.

 

[poseyjmac]

so if i think someones a flaming idiot. i can say 'your behaviour is that of a flaming idiot. '

and its all good right? :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[matthewryanc]

If you got a voucher with an ATI card, then you didn't purchase HL2, did you?

I don't resort to namecalling, ever. What I did was describe people's reactions. Quite accurately, too, I'd say. Surely it could only be construed as offensive if it describes you?

You just bought a ford explorer. You didn't buy the tires on it did you? So if they have a defect, you have no right to complain about it. Same thing goes for the stereo system, the ingition system, the braking system... Of course those who purchased an ATI card purchased the game...

Reading the last sentence of your statement clearly shows that you are talking about how those descriptions apply to people. Oops, I mean people's reactions....

namecalling: these adjectives describe you (what you said)

describing people's reactions: these adjectives describe your rant (not what you said)



EDIT: Anyways, seeing that you're a moderator, you surely won't respond as this conversation is taking the thread off topic.

 

[thefiznut]

the most verbal and demanding yes. but there is a reason which is related to parenting. heres a metaphor:

you show an ice cream cone to a kid and he will be more excited about it. if you constantly take it away though when waving it in front of his face, do you expect him to just act normal? no the kid will say "what the ****!" and be grounded for swearing.

on the other hand the parent who tells the kid once that he can have icecream on the weekend, he may want it, but its so far away that hes not going to act as crazy as the first kid.

same thing here, valve put the icecream in front of our faces and because of sep30th 2003, made us bitchy, then continually valve did it again and again, until the community did evolve into the most vocal and bothered community ever. no doot aboot it

So Valve (the parent) purposely delayed HL2 to make us (the kid) angry? I don't think so. Shit happens, HL2 got delayed and it wasn't because Valve wanted to delay it... they had to.
Your ice cream example just can't be compared to game development having problems and a large mouthy community. I see your point though, and yes we are becoming more verbal with every mistake Valve makes. It doesn't make it any more right. How hard is it to wait patiently? You're a greedy bunch, that's for sure.

 

[jet jaguar]

Is it really too much to expect Valve to just stop make any announcements regarding release dates? If they can't meet them(and they've shown themselves to be totally and undeniably inept in that area) they shouldn't bother even making them. How much grief did they get about HL2 before they announced it back in Apr 2003? None. How much grief have they gotten for missing 9/30/03, the MIA SDK, the long-delayed CS:CZ, and now the HL2 pre-load? A TON, and deservedly so. If anyone, ANYONE, failed to keep their word as Valve has, they'd justifiably be getting reamed. The solution to all this? Valve just needs to shut up and release it when it's done. Then they can talk all they want.

 

[poseyjmac]

So Valve (the parent) purposely delayed HL2 to make us (the kid) angry? I don't think so. Shit happens, HL2 got delayed and it wasn't because Valve wanted to delay it... they had to.
Your ice cream example just can't be compared to game development having problems and a large mouthy community. I see your point though, and yes we are becoming more verbal with every mistake Valve makes. It doesn't make it any more right. How hard is it to wait patiently? You're a greedy bunch, that's for sure.

no they just decided the ice cream wasn't ready each time.

if you still think we are a greedy bunch you need to read my post again. if you like being jerked around and being complacent, hey thats your prob, but some of us dont like to put up with bullshit.

 

[Pitbul]

This whole situation is getting kind of rediculous.

I did not get mad when valve decided to delay HL2 the first time. Nor was I angry when the first/second preload date passed and nothing.

And now they seem to have missed the mark they have set themselves, AGAIN!

I'm not going to get stupid about more delays, but it does take the fun out of being a fan. I will definetly try and be one of the first to download and play HL2 regardless of all of this. The fact of the matter is, with each delay/fib I get less and less excited about this great game.

Valve, there needs to be some respect given to the gamers that support you.

Please, do not waste everyone's time on this forum and many others waiting for false information from you. It just leads to dissapointment and does nothing for HL2.

I 110% Agree.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

you show an ice cream cone to a kid and he will be more excited about it. if you constantly take it away though when waving it in front of his face, do you expect him to just act normal? no the kid will say "what the ****!" and be grounded for swearing.

The problem is that it's Valve's "waving the icecream in our faces" is part of their job.
It's called marketing.

Using your example as a template, it would be more like this:

The kid sees an icecream truck with a sign. The sign says:
TRY OUR DELICIOUS ICECREAM
25 CENTS

The kid asks his parents to buy him some, but is then told that the truck is closed and that there is no-one there to serve it.

The kid swears, and says how he'll just steal all the icy treats from the good people from Baskin Robbins because he can't stand the wait for the DELICIOUS ICECREAM he read about.

He of course, gets reprimanded by his parents and has his desserts taken away for a week.

So, with nothing left to do, he goes to the Baskin Robbins Forums and angrily compares their icecream service to Valve's goddamn delay of Half-Life 2.

See? Much more accurate.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You just bought a ford explorer. You didn't buy the tires on it did you? So if they have a defect, you have no right to complain about it. Same thing goes for the stereo system, the ingition system, the braking system...

Do Ford Explorers come with vouchers for tyres? Stereos? The ignition system? The braking system?
Are Ford Explorers advertised with slogans such as "Now with free tyres!!!!" or "bundled with Ignition System 2.0!!!"
Next time, pick an anology that works. A car is the entire package. HL2 is a bundled extra with an ATI card.

Of course those who purchased an ATI card purchased the game...

See above.

Reading the last sentence of your statement clearly shows that you are talking about how those descriptions apply to people. Oops, I mean people's reactions....

If that's how you choose to see it. Personally, I don't see how it could be any clearer. Here's a direct quote:

I just object to the precious, prissy, childish reactions.

namecalling: these adjectives describe you (what you said)

See the last word in my quote? "reactions". Understand yet?

describing people's reactions: these adjectives describe your rant (not what you said)

"Reactions"

 

[thefiznut]

You just bought a ford explorer. You didn't buy the tires on it did you? So if they have a defect, you have no right to complain about it. Same thing goes for the stereo system, the ingition system, the braking system... Of course those who purchased an ATI card purchased the game...

Reading the last sentence of your statement clearly shows that you are talking about how those descriptions apply to people. Oops, I mean people's reactions....

namecalling: these adjectives describe you (what you said)

describing people's reactions: these adjectives describe your rant (not what you said)



EDIT: Anyways, seeing that you're a moderator, you surely won't respond as this conversation is taking the thread off topic.

It's not offtopic. The topic is about Valve's treatment of the fans. What we're currently discussing (Valve owing the fans) IMO isn't that far off topic.

 

[poseyjmac]

The problem is that it's Valve's "waving the icecream in our faces" is part of their job.
It's called marketing.

Using your example as a template, it would be more like this:

The kid sees an icecream truck with a sign. The sign says:
TRY OUR DELICIOUS ICECREAM
25 CENTS

The kid asks his parents to buy him some, but is then told that the truck is closed and that there is no-one there to serve it.

The kid swears, and says how he'll just steal all the icy treats from the good people from Baskin Robbins because he can't stand the wait for the DELICIOUS ICECREAM he read about.

He of course, gets reprimanded by his parents and has his desserts taken away for a week.

So, with nothing left to do, he goes to the Baskin Robbins Forums and angrily compares their icecream service to Valve's goddamn delay of Half-Life 2.

See? Much more accurate.

part of their job to wave ice cream in front of the face? then why does bioware and blizzard do the job so much better, so the fan does not bitch? huh?

 

[matthewryanc]

So Valve (the parent) purposely delayed HL2 to make us (the kid) angry? I don't think so. Shit happens, HL2 got delayed and it wasn't because Valve wanted to delay it... they had to.

It's not their fault... so it's the programmer's fault? Someone is at fault. If it is not valve as a company, then it must be a programmer/artist in the company. Someone must take the blame, 'mistakes' do not simply 'happen'.

You know what happens to games that miss their confirmed release date by over a year (which this will be)? They get cancelled. I have seen it happen. Millions in development and licensing fees gone. All because the game was delayed too long.

Sure there are exceptions, of course half-life 2 is going to come out (or is it), but there is more than just a few teenagers being affected by this. This will determine Valve, and possibly ATi's fate as companies. How do you expect valve to get investors after a screw up like this?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

if you like being jerked around

I don't see how you're being "jerked around". There's no effort involved on your part. It isn't like Valve are saying that it's going to be in stores tomorrow, and you run down there to queue up only to find it's delayed.

being complacent,

I don't see it as being complacent. I just don't see that it's worth getting worked up over. What have you lost?