Why treat your fans like this?

[Grand Architect]

I am only upset about the lack of any news reguarding the preload. To say it will be release the 23rd and it was ready the 17th. Then when the day comes nothing, not even a 5 min post of "sorry its delayed because of another CS:S beta update" is just a lack of respect. If valve fails to respect the comminuty(me) then I see no need to show respect for them.

 

[poseyjmac]

and pi, its not about being childish or prissy, what it is is its not putting up with BS. i mean, not everyone is complacent and will let people slap them in the face. we aren't childish for complaining, its the ONLY way things can improve, its the only way valve can improve if they realize that what they are doing is messed up. its not because we hate valve, i complain because maybe they'll improve as a company and that can only be better for us right?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

It's not their fault... so it's the programmer's fault? Someone is at fault. If it is not valve as a company, then it must be a programmer/artist in the company. Someone must take the blame, 'mistakes' do not simply 'happen'.

That depends on the corporate culture. Valve may not be into the whole "blaming" thing.

You know what happens to games that miss their confirmed release date by over a year (which this will be)? They get cancelled. I have seen it happen. Millions in development and licensing fees gone. All because the game was delayed too long.

Yes. Publishers cancel games that take too long. When the publisher has funded it. Valve self-funded HL2.

Sure there are exceptions, of course half-life 2 is going to come out (or is it), but there is more than just a few teenagers being affected by this. This will determine Valve, and possibly ATi's fate as companies. How do you expect valve to get investors after a screw up like this?

Valve don't need investors. Half-Life paid for the development of Half-Life 2. Half-Life 2 will pay for their next project. Self-funding is a wonderful thing.

 

[thefiznut]

no they just decided the ice cream wasn't ready each time.

if you still think we are a greedy bunch you need to read my post again. if you like being jerked around and being complacent, hey thats your prob, but some of us dont like to put up with bullshit.

They didn't DECIDE it wasn't ready, it simply wasn't ready. It was NOT their choice to delay it. To not delay it would have shipped an incomplete game.

And yes, I still feel you're a greedy bunch. People whine about shadows overlapping, blood decals not splattering, the lighting/shadowing not being as dynamic as they could, and why Valve hasn't fixed these issues. Then the next, they're complaining because Valve hasn't released the game soon enough .

 

[CrazyHarij]

So.. the game is once again delayed? Meh. :|

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

and pi, its not about being childish or prissy, what it is is its not putting up with BS. i mean, not everyone is complacent and will let people slap them in the face. we aren't childish for complaining, its the ONLY way things can improve, its the only way valve can improve if they realize that what they are doing is messed up. its not because we hate valve, i complain because maybe they'll improve as a company and that can only be better for us right?

I don't see it as a slap in the face. It doesn't affect me in any way. Nothing has been lost.
I think you're somewhat deluded if you think it'll change the way Valve operate. HL2 will be out soon, and everyone will forget all about it. Until the next game, and the delays. It's an infinite cycle.

 

[matthewryanc]

Do Ford Explorers come with vouchers for tyres? Stereos? The ignition system? The braking system?
Are Ford Explorers advertised with slogans such as "Now with free tyres!!!!" or "bundled with Ignition System 2.0!!!"
Next time, pick an anology that works. A car is the entire package. HL2 is a bundled extra with an ATI card.

See the last word in my quote? "reactions". Understand yet?

Right, so nobody bought a Radeon just so that they could get the game. Right... It is an advertised feature of the product. To some people it is an integral part of the product.

Quote of you: Surely it could only be construed as offensive if it describes you?

See the last word in your quote. "you". Understand.


This is simply a differing in opinions. Obviously neither yours nor mine are going to change, neither is right. The only truth is that Valve made commitments/promises/contractual statements stating that xxxx product would be released within xxxx timeframe, and that timeframe was not met.

 

[thefiznut]

Right, so nobody bought a Radeon just so that they could get the game. Right... It is an advertised feature of the product. To some people it is an integral part of the product.

Quote of you: Surely it could only be construed as offensive if it describes you?

See the last word in your quote. "you". Understand.


This is simply a differing in opinions. Obviously neither yours nor mine are going to change, neither is right. The only truth is that Valve made commitments/promises/contractual statements stating that xxxx product would be released within xxxx timeframe, and that timeframe was not met.

Why on earth would someone spend over 100 dollars to get a Radeon JUST for HL2?

 

[dream431ca]

Come on people...Have you ever seen a game like this before?? I understand why valve is missing their so called "release dates" for the HL2 preload and the game. This is the first time in my life that I have seen a game this complex and this awesome. Of course I expect delays and bugs and all of that. I mean how could you not?? First of all...the source engine is a one of kind, state of the art engine that valve themselves created and because it's a new engine I expect LOTS of bugs. Valve wants the game to be completely polished before preloading and release because I know that if they release the game now...and you try and start the game and it crashes at the main menu screen...you'll be really pissed off...probably even more so than all these delays and "missed" dates. So what would you rather do?

A) wait until valve is finished all the debugging and last minute checks and release a well polished, well tuned game that runs almost perfectly...

or

B) Valve releases the game now and it constantly crashes and the textures turn random colours and the game runs horribly.

I would rather wait. It would be extremely frustrating to actually buy the game and then it has all these problems. I would much rather want them to have the game almost perfect before it's released. Of course you can't get out all the bugs in a game but you can sure dam well try.

Oh and about that "Valve ows me something" thing.....I think we ALL owe THEM something. We are all DAM LUCKY that valve never cancelled it after the hackers. They re-wrote 1/3 of the source code instead of cancelling the whole project.

We are all lucky that we have a developer like valve because I can tell you...there are very few developers that join forums...give out information and answering a TON of e-mails from all you guys. They even give out tours to random fans..I have never seen that with other developers.

So about Valve treating their fans bad....I believe this is the only game company that actually LISTENS to their fans.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Right, so nobody bought a Radeon just so that they could get the game. Right... It is an advertised feature of the product. To some people it is an integral part of the product.

To some people. However, it isn't an integral part. You can buy ATI hardware without

Quote of you: Surely it could only be construed as offensive if it describes you?

See the last word in your quote. "you". Understand.

Oh, I see. You're not going off my original statement, the one that is quite clear, you're instead using my reply to your initial attack on my statement. Right...

This is simply a differing in opinions. Obviously neither yours nor mine are going to change, neither is right. The only truth is that Valve made commitments/promises/contractual statements stating that xxxx product would be released within xxxx timeframe, and that timeframe was not met.

A fact that I've never disputed.

 

[poseyjmac]

They didn't DECIDE it wasn't ready, it simply wasn't ready. It was NOT their choice to delay it. To not delay it would have shipped an incomplete game.

And yes, I still feel you're a greedy bunch. People whine about shadows overlapping, blood decals not splattering, the lighting/shadowing not being as dynamic as they could, and why Valve hasn't fixed these issues. Then the next, they're complaining because Valve hasn't released the game soon enough .

it actually does boil down to them deciding because ultimately they decided on too much of an optimistic schedule which is why they had to take the ice cream away. we arent talking about shadows overlapping and blood decals, thats called YOU bitching about other people bitching and you're just as much to blame.

you just dont realize that complaining is the way for things to change. not being complacent. by not complaining, you're actually promoting valve's behaviour, which no lawyer could defend, so theres no use trying to do it.

 

[matthewryanc]

Why on earth would someone spend over 100 dollars to get a Radeon JUST for HL2?

Why on earth would someone pay thousands of dollars for a piece of hardware that has no support, and no offficial drivers? Someone did that for a VooDoo 6000. I am not trying to convey that I purchased an ait card for HL2 (haven't bought ati since the radeon 8500), but surely some people purchased an ati card solely based on the fact that not only would ati hardware handle hl2 better, but it also included it.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

part of their job to wave ice cream in front of the face? then why does bioware and blizzard do the job so much better, so the fan does not bitch? huh?

Maybe you don't understand. They're not baiting you.

Valve, like any business, is marketing their product.

Now, they have marketed HL2, evidently, far less than Coca-Cola markets Diet Lime Coke.

If you get extremely angry when the store runs out of Lime Coke, is that Coke's fault? Is it the store's?

No: it's your fault that you are angry.

The same applies if you are miffed, depressed, ambivalent or overly excited. Every game gets delayed. Every store eventually runs out of a product. Coke might even discontinue the Diet Lime division if it doesn't sell well.

Now, if you are mad because an ad told you to want something that isn't there, that's your fault. I'm not whining that I don't have the robots as seen on TV. No matter how awesome TV makes them look.

Like in the icecream example, you are getting mad at the sign that says TRY OUR DELICIOUS ICECREAM
25 CENTS. You are getting mad at the icecream man who isn't there. You are getting mad at factors outside anyones control. You are getting mad at things being more or less unexceptional.

There is no difference between the coke, the icecream and the game that aren't availiable. Except that for one of them, you've let yourself get carried away with hype to the point that you actually care more than you should. Unexceptional has become the opposite.

And, since the only factor creating that difference is you, it stands to reason that it's your fault that you care. Not Valve for trying, and failing, to give you something to care about, because such failures are constant. They are an industry fact. Delays are to be expected, and they are unexceptional. You just disregarded that fact, ignored the possiblity, and are now shocked that it transpired exactly as with hundreds of projects before.

 

[Grand Architect]

Why on earth would someone spend over 100 dollars to get a Radeon JUST for HL2?

If I was going out to buy a new Video card and saw "Free copy of Half-Life 2 inside" on the box I would buy that card over another. And actual alot of people got ATI cards just because of this ad other wise they would have gone for the less costly nivdia cards.

 

[matthewryanc]

Oh, I see. You're not going off my original statement, the one that is quite clear, you're instead using my reply to your initial attack on my statement. Right...

Because I was making a point. You were stating that it was to people's reactions, but your actions/posts were showing that you intended to namecall.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Because I was making a point. You were stating that it was to people's reactions, but your actions/posts were showing that you intended to namecall.

No, that's just your inference.

 

[poseyjmac]

I don't see it as a slap in the face. It doesn't affect me in any way. Nothing has been lost.
I think you're somewhat deluded if you think it'll change the way Valve operate. HL2 will be out soon, and everyone will forget all about it. Until the next game, and the delays. It's an infinite cycle.

yes you dont see it that way, and you know why? because you are complacent and you accept whatever is given to you. its a good thing and a bad thing, but in this case a bad thing.

the community can be heard, no doubt about that, itd be unwise to assume change can never happen, do you even believe in voting? or a democracy? or are they all childish for voicing their beliefs? some of us are a little extreme in the bitching but our general attitude is correct, we dont deserve this, and valve CAN improve if they want to.

 

[stanr]

Imagine that you are Valve.

Also, imagine that the fans of the game that you're about to release are nosy and like to listen to WAV files, look at textures and read text files in the Steam directories.

Now, imagine that, in a week where you have to do tons of other important work (bug-squashing etc) you also have to come up with *strong* encryption for all your data (something that cannot be easily cracked), write code for it, and encode > 1GBs of data with it.

I would imagine that would set you back more than it would if you could just release the files as-is, unencrypted.

I am not saying this is the reason for day, but it could be one of many.

Stan R.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The bottom line is that no-one has paid Valve for HL2. Valve have no obligation to provide you with an accurate release date. That's their prerogative, regardless of the reason.

Want to show Valve how much that pisses you off? Don't buy the game. Bitching about on a forum isn't really likely to get them to take notice.

 

[poseyjmac]

Imagine that you are Valve.

Also, imagine that the fans of the game that you're about to release are nosy and like to listen to WAV files, look at textures and read text files in the Steam directories.

Now, imagine that, in a week where you have to do tons of other important work (bug-squashing etc) you also have to come up with *strong* encryption for all your data (something that cannot be easily cracked), write code for it, and encode > 1GBs of data with it.

I would imagine that would set you back more than it would if you could just release the files as-is, unencrypted.

I am not saying this is the reason for day, but it could be one of many.

Stan R.

and that would be a perfectly good explanation if it were true!

but its not what valve claims. they say the preload content was ready, but that they wanted to wait till monday for more bandwidth. come monday, looking at steam, almost 8 gigabits free. and nothing.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

yes you dont see it that way, and you know why? because you are complacent and you accept whatever is given to you. its a good thing and a bad thing, but in this case a bad thing.

I am most assuredly not complacent. However, I am a developer myself, and I can identify with Valve over this.
Obviously, I'd rather Valve hit their release targets, and it causes mild annoyance when they don't. However, it doesn't affect me on any particular level, and I can understand it from their perspective.

the community can be heard, no doubt about that, itd be unwise to assume change can never happen, do you even believe in voting? or a democracy? or are they all childish for voicing their beliefs? some of us are a little extreme in the bitching but our general attitude is correct, we dont deserve this, and valve CAN improve if they want to.

See my previous post.

EDIT:

Voting and democracy are utterly, utterly irrelevant in this case. Valve isn't a government. You are not The People. Vote with your wallets if it bothers you that much.

 

[matthewryanc]

No, that's just your inference.

Same thing in reguards to your take on my original post. Just as it may appear to be an attack, some may take it diferently. Just as many other people on this forum might construe your statements to be directed at people, not at statements/reactions.

I would prefer to take this to PM's if you have anything further to say. I don't see why my meager post-count should double in reguards to the inference of a statement.

EDIT: And in comment to your previous post (or next to previous.... whatever), most people cannot unbuy the game. They have purchased the game through the purchase of their cards. Thus they have a right to complain.

EDIT2: You're a developer? Now I understand your position. During the development of the game, some features get added, while some features get cut. Some of the added features make the development take longer. Thus the team leads are to blame for adding features, that they simply did not budget enough time to develop fully. This is the information I want to hear! "Hey guys, gonna be just a little bit longer. We are missing the release date because back in july we decided to add feature x, which will make the game better in x ways. We have passed the development stage, and were are just squashing bugs right now, so worst case scenario is that the game will be released in x days/weeks/millenia..."

 

[poseyjmac]

The bottom line is that no-one has paid Valve for HL2. Valve have no obligation to provide you with an accurate release date. That's their prerogative, regardless of the reason.

Want to show Valve how much that pisses you off? Don't buy the game. Bitching about on a forum isn't really likely to get them to take notice.

blizzard and bioware have no obligation to provide an accurate release date either, BUT they also take the obligation to not BS the community and because of that, no one talks shit about them.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You see? It's words like "BS" that annoy me. That suggests that Valve were deliberately misleading you over the release date. It's not "BS", it's not lieing. It's a missed release date.

 

[DarkStar]

However, I am a developer myself, and I can identify with Valve

Really? Who do you work for? What are you working on?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Same thing in reguards to your take on my original post. Just as it may appear to be an attack, some may take it diferently. Just as many other people on this forum might construe your statements to be directed at people, not at statements/reactions.

I would prefer to take this to PM's if you have anything further to say. I don't see why my meager post-count should double in reguards to the inference of a statement.

Up to you. Personally, I'm not bothered.

EDIT: And in comment to your previous post (or next to previous.... whatever), most people cannot unbuy the game. They have purchased the game through the purchase of their cards. Thus they have a right to complain.

Except they didn't buy it. They don't have to send in their coupon, or activate the key via Steam. In fact, I'm willing to bet that there's a percentage of people that bought an ATI card without even knowing what HL2 is, and will never, ever, use their free entitlement.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Really? Who do you work for? What are you working on?

UMOCO

Can't say what we're working on (it's not a handheld/mobile game )

 

[dream431ca]

If you wanna good read...see my previous post on this thread...page 9 I believe.

 

[poseyjmac]

You see? It's words like "BS" that annoy me. That suggests that Valve were deliberately misleading you over the release date. It's not "BS", it's not lieing. It's a missed release date.

ok, its interepreted as BS to the community. i know valve didn't mean it to be BS, but bullshit starts as healthy green grass.

 

[The_Nexus]

I posted this in Driverhaven..feb 2004..and i feel it is still fitting.

When it is done it is done is the way i see it. I'm harcore og Halfife baby and have been waiting with lwet lips myself. MAy i suggest not getting so worked up..

In response to a poster who demanded Valve Owes Him:

They owe you?....lets take a closer look at this "opinion"

Is the HL2 coupon still gonna be valid when the game is released...uh i think so...the game will still cost 70-80 CAN when released and you will still get it with that voucher...unless i missed something..whats wrong with that? How is that deal broken? If i'm right they also gave the ati voucher buyer an option for a hl 1 complete super edition package if your attention span is as long as lesbo suggestive beer commercial.

HL was so popular because it was rated BEST FPS GAME EVER by countless thousands of users and mags. It was literally a goundbreaking new direction for the fps shooter. I remember plugging away on a Cyrix pr 200 chip and an 8 meg rage pro turbo with the nano x geek tweaked drivers at 5 to 10 fps to finish the game it was so damn good.

There are Hundreds of user created modifications for the game- 2 had direct support from VALVE (unheard of before and groundbreaking in that scope alone) and went retail. as a direct result CS was rated #1 online fps game EVER (the number of online player spoke more than words)and created new standards and direction for online fps.

VALVE has been supporting and releasing patches since 1998----thats a six year life span of support to play oodles of mods..really different games altogether.

You name any other game/ software company that has given you that much value for the original 49.99 --CAN sticker price----thats right 50 bucks for hundreds of mods and continuous Publisher support for 6 years running .... i'll eat my socks...better yet i'll PR myself to hypothetical performance rated AMD land.


And becasue Valve decides for a damn good reason, whatever it is.. to delay their release of what i bet will be another steller display of the definition of sticker value.....

THEY OWE YOU........................

Go whine to momma, causue you need a diaper change

 

[Mechagodzilla]

blizzard and bioware have no obligation to provide an accurate release date either, BUT they also take the obligation to not BS the community and because of that, no one talks shit about them.

I have no knowledge of Bioware, but Blizzard has cancelled games entirely after they'd been advertised, and has more then a few delays under their belt.

Delays happen. Shit happens. Only here you want to know why, and you want to know how, and you don't want people to make mistakes while telling you why or how. You want, and you want. But all the want in the world won't change a thing. Valve would have delays regardless.

If Bioware has a 7-day delay and Valve has the same, even if bioware disclose everything, it's still a 7-day delay for everyone.

Basically, your whining about the aspect of production that is least integral to the production of the game. Valve telling you everything won't make the game better. And we all know you'll buy it no matter how delayed it gets.

So, in the end, Valve really much more important things to do than answer to you and, in my opinion, that shows that they have their priorites straight.

 

[poseyjmac]

I have no knowledge of Bioware, but Blizzard has cancelled games entirely after they'd been advertised, and has more then a few delays under their belt.

Delays happen. Shit happens. Only here you want to know why, and you want to know how, and you don't want people to make mistakes while telling you why or how. You want, and you want. But all the want in the world won't change a thing. Valve would have delays regardless.

If Bioware has a 7-day delay and Valve has the same, even if bioware disclose everything, it's still a 7-day delay for everyone.

Basically, your whining about the aspect of production that is least integral to the production of the game. Valve telling you everything won't make the game better. And we all know you'll buy it no matter how delayed it gets.

So, in the end, Valve really much more important things to do than answer to you and, in my opinion, that shows that they have their priorites straight.

don't even and try to equate those companies with valve, they aren't in the same ballpark in terms of community respectability.

if you've been paying attention, the community doesn't want more updates as much as it wants valve to shut up until hl2 is gold.

 

[poseyjmac]

bullshit stating that since valve has done some good stuff it writes off all their screwups

sorry, that doesn't fly buddy.

 

[CR0M]

edit - forget it

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Purely as a matter of interest - how many release dates have Valve met?

And I mean patch releases, game releases, Valve-owned mod releases etc.

 

[matthewryanc]

The fact is, valve used to be a respectable company. A company that many love and care for due to the original half life. Some are dissapointed that their favorite company has become a laughingstock. No matter how good HL2 is, it will always be known as being 'that really good game that missed it's original release date by a full year'. Or you can remember them as releasing Team Fortress 2 as a continuous stream of patches, until finally TF1 became TF2. Take your pick...

 

[SATANITRON]

"So, in the end, Valve really much more important things to do than answer to you and, in my opinion, that shows that they have their priorites straight."

If they have more important things to do, then why bother telling us
that its gonna come out monday?
shouldnt they just keep working and forget about us?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

don't even and try to equate those companies with valve, they aren't in the same ballpark in terms of community respectability.

Again you missed my point. Respectability is irrelevant to not only the production of the game, but also to your very purchase of it. Blizzard may be 100X more respectable (an arbitrary designation in any case), but you'll still buy StarCraft 2 as readily as you'll buy HL2. And for the same price, I'd warrant.

if you've been paying attention, the community doesn't want more updates as much as it wants valve to shut up until hl2 is gold.

The key word there is "want".
As I said above, no matter what you want, be it more or less information, it has no impact on anything inside Valve HQ.

No matter how bad their marketing is, your whining wont stop them from doing things their way. It won't even stop you from handing them 60$ out of your own free will and faith in capitalism.

And all for a game that would be equally good as the game you'd get if you hadn't whined at all.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The fact is, valve used to be a respectable company. A company that many love and care for due to the original half life. Some are dissapointed that their favorite company has become a laughingstock.

They have? Strange, I still get the impression that they're one of the most respected companies in the business, with possibly the most highly-anticipated game for a long time.

No matter how good HL2 is, it will always be known as being 'that really good game that missed it's original release date by a full year'.

No it won't. As soon as it's released, no-one will care. Half-Life missed it's release by a full year. Is that how you remember it?

Or you can remember them as releasing Team Fortress 2 as a continuous stream of patches, until finally TF1 became TF2. Take your pick...

TF2 hasn't been released.

 

[matthewryanc]

TF2 hasn't been released.

Sorry for the hidden humor. I'll try to be more obvious next time...

And no one cares about HL being delayed by a year, because it wasn't important at the time. Things are remembered as being letdowns. No one knew what to expect with HL, so it didn't really matter to most people. No one cares that the USA did horribly in womens 10m air rifle at the olympics this year, because hardly anyone follows it, let alone know's that it exists. But if Iran decides to not box because of a jew, then it makes news. Why? Because a larger portion of people care about it/them.