Danish Muhammad cartoon

[The Monkey]

I like to compare it to if a Saudi Arabian newspaper posted some silly cartoons of, for example, our king. Would we then boycott products from that country? Would we threaten its citizens to death and burn that country's flag? This is utter madness.

 

[Sulkdodds]

people are not allowed to make fun out of other people's beliefs.

Yes they are.

Freedom to say what the heck you like sucks

No it doesn't.

 

[Shodan]

I don't think that firing guns in the air, burning the danish flag and sending out death threats is the best course of action, if anything, it seems almost ironic.

The cartoon (I assume) was suggesting that mohammed was a terrorist, so why would you add fuel to the fire by masking yourself and pointing an AK47 at someone?

I really don't understand, those people running around in the street burning flags are just giving the worst name possible to Islam.

 

[Flyingdebris]

goddamn, it seems every 5 minutes there seems to be some crowd of people somewhere in the middle east burning flags and yelling crap. Can't they just sit down and type angry stuff on the internet like everyone else?!

 

[kirovman]

I don't think that firing guns in the air, burning the danish flag and sending out death threats is the best course of action, if anything, it seems almost ironic.

The cartoon (I assume) was suggesting that mohammed was a terrorist, so why would you add fuel to the fire by masking yourself and pointing an AK47 at someone?

I really don't understand, those people running around in the street burning flags are just giving the worst name possible to Islam.

I guess if you've been riding around firing guns in the air everyday for the last 30 years, then that seems the most logical solution.

'maybe if we act violently, people will fear us so much and stop thinking we're violent'

 

[jerkasaur]

I like to compare it to if a Saudi Arabian newspaper posted some silly cartoons of, for example, our king. Would we then boycott products from that country? Would we threaten its citizens to death and burn that country's flag? This is utter madness.

we're talking about insulting relig, not leaders, lots of people make jokes out of for example ahmadinejad, hell i laugh at them too, but not when it comes to beliefs.

 

[Raziaar]

All religions are made fun of. People need to develop a thicker skin when it comes to these comics. They're light hearted and meant to make people chuckle. Offense shouldn't be taken unless its real serious.

I laugh at all those "Jesus LOL" things. They're funny.

 

[Kangy]

Jerkasaur, they have the right to say whatever the **** they want as long as they're not inciting hatred. Don't like it? Don't subscribe to their newsletter. At what point does something become "religious"? I just made my god up, and his brother is this deodrant can in front of me. Is nobody allowed to throw deodrant cans, or draw cartoons of them now?

And first of all, you're right up Solaris' road, in that if the US had got all angry about a Danish newspaper drawing a caricature of Jesus, you'd probably be the first to call them something, or accuse them of wrong doings.

 

[dream431ca]

I just heard that on the news here in Canada. That's a pretty big problem. Hope you can work it out.

This is a big deal...apparently they kidnapped a german already but that's just speculation.

 

[Sulkdodds]

we're talking about insulting relig, not leaders, lots of people make jokes out of for example ahmadinejad, hell i laugh at them too, but not when it comes to beliefs.

And if you don't like it, grumble and don't boycott goods/threaten citizens when it's not the entire country's fault. if it upsets Muslims, I'm afraid that's too bad. You can nark at them all you want but that's free speech for you.

Or, you know, grow a pair. But that's just my opinion; I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

 

[jerkasaur]

I just made my god up, and his brother is this deodrant can in front of me. Is nobody allowed to throw deodrant cans, or draw cartoons of them now?

your deodrant can is not as popular as jesus or muhammad i'm afraid... don't compair more than 3 billion people's beliefs to your deodrant can. i'm against jesus jokes as much as i'm against muhammad jokes. the difference however is you never see a jesus joke with jesus being a terrorist. fuck those who created these comics i'd say. i'm out of here.
"freedom of speech" ey?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yes. Freedom of speech.

Jesus? never a terrorist? Well, perhaps not - but then I don't remember him ever doing anything violent ever, and I don't remember quite as many Christian terrorist groups as Muslim terrorist groups (although this may change) and he's pretty evil here.

 

[Raziaar]

Yes. Freedom of speech.

Jesus? never a terrorist? Well, perhaps not - but then I don't remember him ever doing anything violent ever, and I don't remember quite as many Christian terrorist groups as Muslim terrorist groups (although this may change) and he's pretty evil here.

Christian terrorist groups are groups such as the KKK. I don't consider them christian because they're so far off the path that the bible teaches.

 

[jerkasaur]

Christian terrorist groups are groups such as the KKK. I don't consider them christian because they're so far off the path that the bible teaches

any terrorist group is far off the path any holy book or religion teaches.
there is no such thing as "muslim" terrorist group or "christian" terrorist group. they're ****ed up and that's what they are.

but then I don't remember him ever doing anything violent ever.

it's not like muhammad did.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Just as many Muslims don't consider Islamic terrorists true Muslims. The fact remains, it's 'islamic terrorists' and 'islamophobia' that's making the news - and with responses like this it seems like that Danish cartoon might even have a point. OOOH, AM I BEING OFFENSIVE? Maybe someone will shoot me.

Note that said point would be 'mohammed is being used as an excuse for terrorism by utter bastards' and not 'mohammed is evil lol'.

 

[Kangy]

it's not like muhammad did.

Muhammad's life was pretty much BASED around violence Jerkasaur... glad that you know plenty about those you seek to defend Secondly, you don't get this - freedom of speech extends to nearly EVERYTHING. The idea is that just because the majority do not like it, then those who have a point to make can make that point anyway, right or wrong.

 

[Jintor]

These cartoons aren't really as offensive as half the stuff I see on the internet about Christianity (weirdly enough Buddhism seems to get a good rap on the internet)

 

[OCybrManO]

(weirdly enough Buddhism seems to get a good rap on the internet)

You hardly ever hear of Buddhist riots, violence, racism, etc... do you? That is, unless they're on the receiving end... like when China invaded and took over Tibet around 1950 (and still occupies it)... and no one came to help them. So, that's part of it. Their religion is very unambiguous when it comes to hatred and violence. At its core is ahimsa, non-violence and respect for all sentient beings. So, that doesn't really leave room for a lot of the crap you see based on vague interpretations of other religions. In fact, a lot of Buddhists take non-violence to the extent of being vegetarians or even vegans. In the West they are often mocked by the Christian-dominated society for practicing "new age crap" like meditation, vegetarianism, yoga, not fighting, living in moderation, not being materialistic, etc. Also, Buddhism isn't constantly locked in a battle against science... unlike Christianity. Buddhism actually works well with psychology... and there is a passage that directly describes an expanding/contracting universe in which beings gradually change form over long periods of time (big bang/crunch and evolution, respectively). Plus, according to Buddhism you need to have form, sensations, perceptions, will, and consciousness to be a living being... meaning that an embryo (at least, in the first several weeks) would not yet qualify, based on what we know about the fetal development process. So, even though I'm not religious, I like the ideas around which Buddhism is based.

 

[Bait]

Muhammad's life was pretty much BASED around violence Jerkasaur...

................No.

Now...being a muslim, I will try to shed some light. I apologize for not reading the last 4 pages, but I wanted to get my comments in first.

Muslims take their religion very seriously, with good reason. Islam is built to be a religion of moderation, despite what we are bombarded with by whatever media outlet you plug yourself into. As such, muslims are extremely proud, more so than people in the west can understand, I think.

Muhammad (pbuh) was a great man, whether you believe in him or not. His presence changed the face of the earth, and people would do well to respect him. Islam regards Muhammad (pbuh) as the pinnacle of human conduct, and for lesser men to disrespect him is obviously done out of sheer ignorance of the magnitude of this man. For someone who is monstrously inept about the tenents of Islam, and the manner in which muslims hold Muhammad (pbuh) dear to their hearts acts as evidence for the reason as to why these pictures are inappropriate. The muslims asking for an apology have full and complete right to do so, and should the cartoonists have a shred of understanding, they would comply.

What I really dislike, however, is how this is being defended by using the "freedom of speech" defence. How much can someone say, knowing full well of the reprocussions, before a limit is drawn?
1 of two scenarios seems to be the case here:
1) The cartoonists did the cartoons completely ignorant of the reaction of the muslim community.
or
2)The cartoonists were fully aware, and proceeded with the cartoons anyways.
#2 seems the more likely scenario to myself. That being said, these cartoonists hit a wasp nest with a rock knowing full well the consequences. What have they gained? All they have done is provoke and convolute and no benefit for anyone has come.

Yes. Freedom of speech.

Jesus? never a terrorist? Well, perhaps not - but then I don't remember him ever doing anything violent ever, and I don't remember quite as many Christian terrorist groups as Muslim terrorist groups (although this may change) and he's pretty evil here.

Realistically speaking religion and terrorism are worlds apart. Just because a member of one such group claims to be a member of whatever religion does not make him so. Keeping that in mind, I hate hearing things like "muslim terrorist" or a "christian terrorist" and the like. These people, who knowingly attack civilians cannot possibly be considered part of the moderate religions which they claim to be adherent to. As such, the distinction between "muslims terrorists" and "christian terrorists" are unnecessary and misleading.

Oh, and I read that "grow a pair" statement. Sulk, don't for a minute convince yourself that the miraculous "freedom of speech" is such that any man can say anything without fear of reprisal for his comments. If you are going to say something to the masses: be responsible, be informed and don't be a ****ing idiot. Otherwise, you should forfeit your protection under that freedom. The reason you, and others, think this is rediculous is being you haven't been exposed to things which these events concern. It's strange and it's foreign to most, but that does not mean people may use rubrics and checklists that they use in their everyday lives as to what is strange and what isn't in this case.

 

[Kangy]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but isn't part of the the accepted history of Islam that Muhammed spread it via various battles, for example, this one from Wikipedia:

"In March of 624, Muhammad led some 300 warriors in a raid on a Meccan merchant caravan. The Meccans successfully defended the caravan and then decided to teach the Medinans a lesson. They sent a small army against Medina. On March 15, 624 near a place called Badr, the Meccans and the Muslims clashed. Though outnumbered more than 3 times (1000 to 300) in the battle, the Muslims met with success, killing at least forty-five Meccans and taking seventy prisoners for ransom; only fourteen Muslims died. This marked the real beginning of Muslim military achievement."

Surely that's violence on a significant level?

Oh, btw, Bait, they apologised for publishing the cartoon I believe.

 

[Bait]

I am well aware of the battle of badr, but the description you posted seems rather innacurate. I have to leave right now, so I can't post something long. Perhaps later.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

excuse me, but do shut up. how does it feel when you hear someone has put the holy bible in the toilet? they did this with the quran. don't think this is "over reacting", people are not allowed to make fun out of other people's beliefs.

Excuse me, but yes they are. There is no right to not be offended. In the western world, we generally have a freedom of speech that is cherished, and it protects just that right to do so.

If someone put the Holy Bible in the toilet I'd think they're a dumbass and an asshole. However, I would not organize an armed takeover of their country's diplomatic offices, call for their DEATH, or go on rampages. That is lunacy at it's peak. We have the right to blaspheme, whether they like it or not.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

Bait man,It boils down to this. Though the newspapers were wrong to publish the comics simply to test the water however it boils down to this "Though I don't agree with what you say,I'll defend to the death your right to say it"

Furthermore saying that Muhammad himself is above critizism from "Lesser men" is crazy. I mean,I respect the guy for getting off his ass and establishing a global religon. That takes alot of work,Balls and wisedom however as much as aspects of Islam are commendable he also laid the gorundwork for suicide bombings and a religon apparently intolerent of critizism. Whether or not Muhammad intended this or not is irrelevant as its here. And unlike Christianity where selfish Cardinals,Popes and Apostles have changed the books of the bible to suit their own purposes, One of the main selling points(And on two seperate occasions I have been told this during attempts to convert me) of Islam is that the Koran is unchanged from Muhammads words and that they are a directly from Allah.

Look man to boil it down,All we're saying is that these comics are attempts at humor, Poor attempts and in bad taste,but humor nonetheless and that such things will happen again and rather then a major international incident Muslims could tolerate that jokes will be made.
But remember tolerence is just that. Tolerate, You don't need to like it.

EDIT: ohhh Post number 500. Well its been a long two years but I finally made it to a milestone. Roll on 1000 in 2008

 

[Icarusintel]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/02/gaza.cartoon/index.html
Why would I want to listen to people who can only express themselves through threats and violence? They are certainly not helping themselves any, and really, they're making fools out of themselves. Sure, you can defend your religious beliefs, but this is so damn pointless it's not worth getting up for. I have no respect for them at all, you can go about this whole process peacefully and democratically. And yes, I understand that all they've really known is violence for their whole lives, but the process has to start somewhere, or the cycle will merely continue.

 

[jerkasaur]

Bait man,It boils down to this. Though the newspapers were wrong to publish the comics simply to test the water however it boils down to this "Though I don't agree with what you say,I'll defend to the death your right to say it"

Furthermore saying that Muhammad himself is above critizism from "Lesser men" is crazy. I mean,I respect the guy for getting off his ass and establishing a global religon. That takes alot of work,Balls and wisedom however as much as aspects of Islam are commendable he also laid the gorundwork for suicide bombings and a religon apparently intolerent of critizism. Whether or not Muhammad intended this or not is irrelevant as its here. And unlike Christianity where selfish Cardinals,Popes and Apostles have changed the books of the bible to suit their own purposes, One of the main selling points(And on two seperate occasions I have been told this during attempts to convert me) of Islam is that the Koran is unchanged from Muhammads words and that they are a directly from Allah.

Look man to boil it down,All we're saying is that these comics are attempts at humor, Poor attempts and in bad taste,but humor nonetheless and that such things will happen again and rather then a major international incident Muslims could tolerate that jokes will be made.
But remember tolerence is just that. Tolerate, You don't need to like it.

EDIT: ohhh Post number 500. Well its been a long two years but I finally made it to a milestone. Roll on 1000 in 2008

i like the logic behind that but how much more could you tolerate?
and it's not just humor.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

i like the logic behind that but how much more could you tolerate?
and it's not just humor.

listen, humor is subjective. But if it was meant as a straightforward attack to islam then why cover it up in a cartoon?

Furthermore, it's a cartoon for god's sake! lighten up! if you are insulted by attempts of humor then that's your own problem. Let me ask you this:how do you feel about these violent reactions? Do you justify them?

 

[Razor]

And the Muslims who are offended by this need to learn that in a western, secular democracy, people may actually say or do things that may offend them.

There is a subtle difference between criticizing a religion, and criticizing its people.

I could see where you're coming from if the articles were intelligent criticism leading from research into the Islamic faith, all the articles in this case are designed to do are insult and poke fun at the Islamic faith. There have been court cases in Britain where people have been arrested for insighting violence towards a people and belittling a people based upon their race or religion...unfortunately the rest of Europe isn't that civilised.

 

[jerkasaur]

But if it was meant as a straightforward attack to islam then why cover it up in a cartoon?

you want me to post more than 10 pictures i've just seen with islam being insulted in them? and they're not cartoons.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Oh, and I read that "grow a pair" statement. Sulk, don't for a minute convince yourself that the miraculous "freedom of speech" is such that any man can say anything without fear of reprisal for his comments. If you are going to say something to the masses: be responsible, be informed and don't be a ****ing idiot.

Yes, well I apologise for that comment (because it was stupid). The publification of the cartoons was stupid and inflammatory and not even very funny - I don't support them in the slightest. It just doesn't justify economic sanctions against the country (even when the newspaper's a private body) or death threats, or storming offices with guns. Sure, you say something stupid and others criticise you - look it's happened here and I've payed the price for saying something I shouldn't have said - but how can it justify anything other than a merely verbal reprival?

(I guess what I'm saying is not that "any man can say anything without fear of reprisal for his comments". I want to say the reprisal is disproportionate.)

And on the use of the phrase 'Muslim terrorists' and 'Christian terrorists' - well, I'm not a Muslim so I wouldn't know, and it wouldn't be for me to decide who's a Muslim and who's not. However, most Christians pick and choose what bits they want from the bible - for example, they leave out the bits in the old testament about burning non-Christians, slaughtering those who worship false prophets, killing homosexuals, eccetera. The atrocities committed in the crusades, and many other atrocities besides, could be considered perpetrated by Christians because the old testament actually does condone that sort of behaviour. If people who leave out the nasty bits are Christians then so too are people who leave out the nice bits. They are still Christians.

I don't know myself but I'd be quite surprised if there's no similarly nasty stuff in the Koran.

EDIT: Again, people have a right to have an opinion about Islam even if it's an intolerant, inflammatory one. Conversely, people have a right to have an opinion about that opinion. They don't have any justification for death threats etc.

WARNING: This post may repeat itself a lot. Basically I'm apologising for being stupid and using that as a cover to shift my argument slightly so it's now against the severity of their response rather than the fact that they've got a response at all.

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

@jerkasaur

No need to do that, I've seen them. And yes they are on the edge, but still I don't see this as an attack on a religion. Humor is often used to put things into perspective. For example the cartoon with the guy yelling that there are no more virgins. I do not know if it's correct but media has told us that islamic terrorists see it as a great honor to die for their beliefs. They bomb buildings and people and receive the ultimate honor and get to spend an eternity in heaven with virgins. Now if Islam condones this or not (I certainly don't think so btw) this is what a lot of people associate with Islam nowadays. Therefore the cartoon. I think that Islam should certainly make it very clear that their religion is not about killing and terrorism but certain people should not do it in the way they are doing right now. It just proves what this cartoon tried to ridicule.

 

[Jintor]

I don't see Christians roaming around brandishing torches and burning American flags whenever a cartoon involving Jesus appears anywhere (Penny-arcade, I'm looking at you!)

I don't see Buddhists roaming around brandishing torches and burning Chinese flags because China is f***ing Tibet over.

But what do I see?

 

[Chrysalid]

Karl Marx himself once said: "Religion is the opium of the masses". This is absolutely true; people kill, bitch around and betray their friends just because some run-of-the-mill fairytale book tells them to. Muslims are stupid

 

[Ome_Vince]

people have made jokes and cartoons about:
-Fat budha
-Christians in general
-Jesus Christ smoking weed
-God as a wigga
-The Pope as emperor palpetine
-Hindoes as respawning pigs
etc etc

Cartoonists and comedians screw around with anything and everything Just see the humor of it. See any hindoes, budhists or christians riot or protest after 1 funny cartoon?
And man has there been some jokes on them...
This situation is just hilarious and i totally agree with the "its just a joke" thing.
These people just need to start removing the stick up their ass, for its been there too long.
If the cartoon wants to make fun of the "i will sacrifice myself for 72 virgins" then it has the full right to make fun of that...
Here we allready had a VIP murdered by an Islamic extremist as he called middle-east muslims goat-****ers. He got shot and stabbed in public.
Also large islamic riots after every "negative" comment concerning Islam.
People are scared to critisize here, scared to get a fatwa on their heads, which is destroying our freedom of speech.
And we all want to be lefties and say : "ah we have to respect them, we have to addapt to them". I say: wtf why cant some people respect us? and addapt to us?
Ofcourse we must be tollerant, but not if it undermines or destroys what the world fought for 60 years ago... If so then THEY should addapt, not us..

 

[Sulkdodds]

I still think it's incredibly stupid and lame to get so worked up about some cartoons. But that's just my opinion.

 

[HunterSeeker]

-Hindoes as respawning pigs

Sorry but, reincarnating. I normally dont do this but it just got on my nerves, sorry

 

[$kelet0r]

Freedom of speech is awesome - i would die defending it
end of debate

 

[Ome_Vince]

Sorry but, reincarnating. I normally dont do this but it just got on my nerves, sorry

hehe, was a gamer-joke ( i admit not a very good one )

 

[^Ben]

Hrmmmm, tryicky situation.

On the one hand, yeah free speach and all that yay.

On the other hand, if you basically equate muslim = terrorist, I would expect muslims to get rightly pissed off at that.

I think free speach is all well and good, but inciting people and trying to hide behind free speach is wrong.

 

[The Monkey]

we're talking about insulting relig, not leaders, lots of people make jokes out of for example ahmadinejad, hell i laugh at them too, but not when it comes to beliefs.

OK, fine, say some arab newspaper did some silly cartoons of Jesus. Sure, some people mightbe upset, but how many would burn flags and try to kill that country's citizens?

The muslims asking for an apology have full and complete right to do so, and should the cartoonists have a shred of understanding, they would comply.

The newspaper have apologized! But now they want the Danish government to apologize as well, which is ridiculus, because they have nothing to do with it.

 

[gick]

Freedom of speech is awesome - i would die defending it
end of debate

QFT, QFE

HELL YES.