Do you believe in spanking?

[CyberPitz]

I've seen it with "normal" kids as well



I think people equate not spanking a child with letting them do whatever they please, which just isnt the case ..the opposite in fact is true ..you have to work that much harder because you dont use spanking as the be all and end of discipline

I don't know, maybe it was just me, but if they threatened me with a stern talking to or a lack of TV/video games instead of getting the belt...I wouldn't be so worried as to not do them personally...

 

[Raeven0]

I was brought up with the idea of if I didn't something I knew was wrong and I REALLY shouldn't have done, then I was going to get the switch/belt. It tought me that I can't go through life without thinking the wrongs I do have no consequences.

I award you 100 points.

 

[CptStern]

I don't know, maybe it was just me, but if they threatened me with a stern talking to or a lack of TV/video games instead of getting the belt...I wouldn't be so worried as to not do them personally...

I'd rather a beating than a lecture

btw using a switch/belt is abuse ..I too got the belt when I was a kid but those were different times ..now using an object to inflict pain is definately abusive


you have to start from the very beginning. I've never lifted a hand against my son but judging from some of the responses from this thread some of you would, and that troubles me because there is nothing he can do that warrents painful retaliation

 

[Ome_Vince]

ummmm no I'm not ..all I said was times change ...I even mentioned it at the time

So you didnt make this comment:
people have been sacrificing virgins to the moon gods for eons as well ...times change

In end you said times change, but you countered my refering to the past with this rediculed example from a totally different scale+subject.

says who? the majority of people here are for spanking ..obviously spanking hasnt been eradicated so your point doesnt really hold up ..now were everyone to follow the exact same methodology and after 20 years we returned to compare how the the 2 groups fared you'd have a point ..but as it stands there is NO set forumla for child rearing

My point holds up since i havent seen any graph or any data/proof to support an occasional spank is bad for kids.
Its been done/not done for thousands of years, surely there must be some proof to support the hype that spanking = bad..
If we're willing to overthrow/ban ancient methods, then whats wrong with asking for proof?

you couldnt possibly come to such a conclusion because there is NO standardized method of rearing children ..without any sort of measuring stick we couldnt accurately tell you what effects what

Says the fact that i havent seen any data/proof supporting the "when you occasionally spank your kid blabl% turns out with trauma's" or something similar.
So far i've seen no credible relation between psychological damage and an occasional spank to correct a kid.
Please provide this and i'll gladly agree.
Again, if you wish to change something, provide credible evidence to support it other than "i've seen" and "i think".

I've worked with the worst children imagineable .."alternative methods" do nothing ..spanking a child who is that far gone is completely ineffectual ..they learn absolutely nothing

Hmm, weird since i have opposite experiences even with kids in our family and none have psychological issues.
Its not like you spank em everyday, usually from what i've noticed throughout the worst-kids entire youth he gets spanked 2-3 times, and later on simply gets the occasional threat to them.

spanking is humiliating, it produces pain, it gives children less self worth ..not something I'm willing to do with my children

So does yelling, putting a kid in the corner, sending it to its room etc.
It is all humiliating for children, do we now have to go Dr Phil on every child to make sure it never gets humiliated?
Cmon, now your overreacting.

You're free to raise your kids however you like, but if your making a case spanking should be outlawed, banned or punished (or even a "just dont do this") then please provide proof that its "bad".
I'm interested to see where this hysteria comes from, and i'll gladly agree if there is credible evidence, since i'd rather not spank than spank a kid.

 

[Razor]

btw using a switch/belt is abuse ..I too got the belt when I was a kid but those were different times ..now using an object to inflict pain is definately abusive

And did your father explain to you what you had done wrong to warrant the punishment and give you a hug afterwards to revitalise the parent/child relationship and cement the bond and the understanding that the spanking was for love?

Do you consider your father abusive towards you and other children?

If you consider your spanking to be abusive, has this changed your outlook on how you raise your own children?

You come across as a person unable to back down from any sort of conflict and are unwilling to give ground on anything, do you feel your fathers spanking has created this inside you?

You also come across as a person that is unwilling to show any sort of violence at all and to run from any sort of physical altercation, again, has your fathers spanking caused you to shy away from pain and physical action?

Of course, all this is based on assumptions and pulling stuff from my arse and like you said, with no sat standard on how to raise your children, spanking can not be judged to be right or wrong scientifically. A lot of the members in here were spanked and yet still support spanking, why is this, they were "physically abused" as a child yet have grown up to be well adjusted individuals from what their posts can tell me.

What i believe is that parents should be offered simple lessons on how to look after their children and shown how to discipline their children, or perhaps childcare should be made compulsary in school for everyone or perhaps go to the extreme that you require a license to have children, only available after taking lessons.

Every child is different, some require spanking, others don't. If a parent is spanking their children regularly, something is wrong, but with more and more kids running wild on the streets and parents unable or unwilling to discipline their children today, something has to be done about it and making spanking illegal is not the right way to go as parents should be educated.

All the anti-spanking people all see spanking as being horrible child abuse, if thats so, you must be calling your own father as well as the parents of a lot of members on here evil child abusing thugs who don't deserve to have children and need their children taken away.

 

[CptStern]

So you didnt make this comment:
people have been sacrificing virgins to the moon gods for eons as well ...times change

In end you said times change, but you countered my refering to the past with this rediculed example from a totally different scale+subject.

stop jumping to conclusions vince you are not me I know exactly what I meant ..times change ..PERIOD, nothiong more nothing less

My point holds up since i havent seen any graph or any data/proof to support an occasional spank is bad for kids.
Its been done/not done for thousands of years, surely there must be some proof to support the hype that spanking = bad..
If we're willing to overthrow/ban ancient methods, then whats wrong with asking for proof?

ok

Results of a landmark survey released today raise questions about what Americans know about raising emotionally, intellectually and socially healthy children.

"This lack of accurate child development information among adults has very real implications for American society," said Kyle Pruett, M.D., clinical professor of psychiatry at the Yale University Child Study Center, and president of ZERO TO THREE. "We're potentially raising overly aggressive children who react to situations with intimidation and bullying, instead of cooperation and understanding; children who won't be able to tolerate frustration, wait their turn or respect the needs of others."

Most Parents Condone Spanking; Child Development Research Doesn't

The effects of spanking are also confusing to most parents. According to the survey results:

61 percent of parents of young children condone spanking as a "regular form of punishment" for young children, while research indicates it's detrimental to a child's development.
37 percent think spanking is appropriate for children under two years of age.
"These findings are surprising," said Ron Lally, Ed.D., co-director of The Center For Child and Family Study at WestEd, "given that while many parents condone spanking as a regular form of punishment, they also understand that this can lead to children acting more aggressively, and that it will not lead to better self-control."

Lally added, "Why would anyone spank an infant or toddler? There is nothing he or she can learn from it other than to distrust bigger and more powerful people."

oh and a survey is next to impossible unless it's a controlled enviroment ..what parent would allow their child to be a gunea pig in a study about physical violence?


http://www.zerotothree.org/parent_poll.html


I'll get to the rest of it when I get a chance ..right now I've got to put my 3 yr old to bed and then it's bath time for the baby ..I can assure you no matter how bad they misbehave neither of them will be going to bed with a sore ass tonight

 

[Ome_Vince]

stop jumping to conclusions vince you are not me I know exactly what I meant ..times change ..PERIOD, nothiong more nothing less

You made a dodgy example in an attempt to overthrow the historical argument, hows that; me jumping to conclusions?
Ah well, i dont have time for a 20 page twist-and-turn discussion on this so i'll drop it, just dont post stupid examples like that.

oh and a survey is next to impossible unless it's a controlled enviroment ..what parent would allow their child to be a gunea pig in a study about physical violence?

http://www.zerotothree.org/parent_poll.html

Interesting read, though its not conclusive and focusses on spanking as a "regular form of punishment" instead of occasional/rare (2-3 time a lifetime) thing .
Spanking toddlers isnt what i usually see -> I remember kids being spanked between 5-8 year olds when some of them become really nasty.
Nevertheless as i mentioned before i'd rather not spank at all (even though i dont believe it generates psychological trauma/damage at all, based on the countless generations that supposingly should have psychological damage; including myself).

I'll get to the rest of it when I get a chance ..right now I've got to put my 3 yr old to bed and then it's bath time for the baby ..I can assure you no matter how bad they misbehave neither of them will be going to bed with a sore ass tonight

Thats great.

 

[Reaktor4]

you pro-child abusers have obviously never watched supernanny.

 

[Raziaar]

you pro-child abusers have obviously never watched supernanny.

Sure we have. I have. Actually, what I watched was nanny 911(and several times). Never heard of Supernanny.

And their techniques are GOOD. They are often effective, and can work very well. And you know what? They are used by parents too, IN ADDITION to the occasional spanking. I was spanked maybe 12-15 times in my childhood. All of the rest was the stuff you see on those nanny shows, and some different things.

My favorite child discipline thing of all though, is the wall. I grew up despising it, but that is because it worked so well. And now today I view it as an effective means of punishment when kids do something wrong.

All you had to hear in our household, was "Go stand against the wall"... followed occasionally by "Nose against the wall, and if you move or look away you're going to get more time". We still disobeyed of course, since that is what kids do... but the wall worked very well.

It's also equivilent to one of the forms I saw on the nanny 911, where she made the young kid sit in a particular area, and wasn't allowed to leave it. Every time they tried to move away, they were sat back down in the spot. Same thing, except the wall in our household was used against kids that were older than those usually on the nanny shows.

 

[Dan]

If you spank your child when you are physically bigger than them, they will spank you back when you are old and feeble

 

[Steel.Inferno]

I think we can all agree the "average" child needs more discipline. Alot more.

Spanking is probably not the best method to obtain said discipline however.

 

[Razor]

Sure we have. I have. Actually, what I watched was nanny 911(and several times). Never heard of Supernanny.

And their techniques are GOOD. They are often effective, and can work very well. And you know what? They are used by parents too, IN ADDITION to the occasional spanking. I was spanked maybe 12-15 times in my childhood. All of the rest was the stuff you see on those nanny shows, and some different things.

My favorite child discipline thing of all though, is the wall. I grew up despising it, but that is because it worked so well. And now today I view it as an effective means of punishment when kids do something wrong.

All you had to hear in our household, was "Go stand against the wall"... followed occasionally by "Nose against the wall, and if you move or look away you're going to get more time". We still disobeyed of course, since that is what kids do... but the wall worked very well.

It's also equivilent to one of the forms I saw on the nanny 911, where she made the young kid sit in a particular area, and wasn't allowed to leave it. Every time they tried to move away, they were sat back down in the spot. Same thing, except the wall in our household was used against kids that were older than those usually on the nanny shows.

Praise the lord, hallelujah. :thumbs:

 

[15357]

If you spank your child when you are physically bigger than them, they will spank you back when you are old and feeble

Not unless you educate them with piety first.

 

[Anthraxxx]

Not unless you educate them with piety first.

Exactly, my parents educated me with Piety. That was the name of the bamboo cane they used to beat me with.

 

[15357]

Lol.


They used to spank me with the Bible when I was younger. I think thats one of the reasons why I have a inherent dislike for all things religious.

 

[Dan]

If you get spanked you'll end up like this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYRhVcJsypg

 

[Razor]

If you get spanked you'll end up like this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYRhVcJsypg

Bloody wars...is that Bill Gates :O

 

[Dan]

he did a pretty good pickup truck impression at the end though

 

[CptStern]

Says the fact that i havent seen any data/proof supporting the "when you occasionally spank your kid blabl% turns out with trauma's" or something similar.

why must everything be so clar cut Vince? why should every single incident be of the magnitude that it causes permanent psychological damage for you to recognise it as a problem? the first time you lost a fight, you were humilated am I right? did that cause "permanent psychological damage"? probably not ..however if that was your experience on a frequent basis it might very well lead to permanent damage if the circumstances are right

being locked in your parents basement till the age of 8 will definately give you "permanent psychological damage" ..some far more than others ..some may walk away and through therapy may even fully recover ..others are not so lucky ..so in such circumstances the measuring stick is far easier to detect because it's catalyst is the single event ..whereas spanking may just be part of it ..so to summarise abuse leads to permanent psychological damage in most instances; spanking I propose has a cumalitive effect and could manifest in undesirable behaviour that may or may not directly link to spanking but could be a result of it ..since the patient wouldnt be able to identify his/her source of whatever pyschological problem they may have there is no way of quantifying exactly how large a role spanking may have had ..it's easy with abuse because that is always the catalyst ..not so obvious when there's no physical trauma

So far i've seen no credible relation between psychological damage and an occasional spank to correct a kid.
Please provide this and i'll gladly agree.

again see above, you're giving it such a narrow list of parameters that unless intensive reasearch is conducted specificaly comparing those two stipulations over many years using a huge study pool no absolutely conclusive evidence could be proven ..either for or against ...as I've already mentioned before what parent woul dwillingly submit their child to such a long study that could potentially cause negative effects
again ..it doesnt have to be pyschological damaging every single time for it to have an effect. But if I must indulge your single mindedness then so be it:

While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child. [big surprise there: fear/pain is a great motivator]

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

It inflicts psychological damage on children. Memories of childhood spankings contribute to low self-esteem, found Hyman and his student Barbara Barrish, PhD, in a survey of 205 college freshmen published this year. Severe beatings were most predictive of unhappiness, while infrequent, mild spankings were not as destructive.

Corroborating these results is research by childhood experts Murray Strauss, PhD, and Glenda Kaufman Kantor, PhD, both sociologists at the University of New Hampshire. Their 1994 analyses of 6,002 families suggest that parents' corporal punishment of adolescents is a risk factor for alcohol abuse, depression, suicide, physical abuse of children and physical assault on wives.

And in a study of 225 11- to 19-year-old African-American youngsters living in Augusta, Ga., medical sociologist Robert Durant, PhD, found that beatings and other forms of family violence led to depression and hopelessness among children. Research unequivocally proves that violence scars children who grow up with it, says Durant, a professor at the Harvard Medical School.

It models violence. Parental use of corporal punishment sends children a message that violence is acceptable, thus perpetuating the cycle of violence in families, said Irwin. Adults who were spanked are most likely to spank their own children. And the more parents hit their children, the more their offspring hit their siblings and other children, his research finds.

'It is simply a contradiction to tell children not to hit other children and then to turn around and hit them yourselves,' said psychologist Jane Knitzer, PhD, president of Div. 37 and a psychologist at the National Center for Children in Poverty in New York City.

http://www.nospank.net/n-d66.htm

Again, if you wish to change something, provide credible evidence to support it other than "i've seen" and "i think".

that's all you've provided thus far (except for the logical fallacy that you seem to adhere to that if society isnt very visibly affected then it stands to reason it has no negative impact ..you couldnt possibly prove that) .

Hmm, weird since i have opposite experiences even with kids in our family and none have psychological issues.
Its not like you spank em everyday, usually from what i've noticed throughout the worst-kids entire youth he gets spanked 2-3 times, and later on simply gets the occasional threat to them.

I fail to see what that accomplishes except give the child the impression that solving problems with violence is ok ..if little jr deliberately punches your 3 year old daughter in the face causing her to lose a tooth would that be grounds for a spanking? ..if so arent you teaching him that the consequence of violence is ...more violence? let me ask you this ..would you allow your child's teacher to spank your child? if so under what circumstances? if not, why not? are you the sole facilitator of violence in your child's life?

So does yelling, putting a kid in the corner, sending it to its room etc.

none of those hurt, none of those teach that violence is neccesary sometimes, none of those teach that an acceptable way to deal with a problem is to use violence

It is all humiliating for children,

please provide clear and concise evidence proving time outs are humilating.

do we now have to go Dr Phil on every child to make sure it never gets humiliated?

please dont associate proven psychological methodology to pedestrian low browed advice giving masquerading as serious therapy ..Dr Phil is the "colour by numbers" equivilent of psychological study ..I mean any moron who sits there and thinks Dr Phil has any hope of fixing serious problems in 10 minutes in between commercials has no real grasp of psychology
Cmon, now your overreacting.

You're free to raise your kids however you like, but if your making a case spanking should be outlawed, banned or punished (or even a "just dont do this") then please provide proof that its "bad".
I'm interested to see where this hysteria comes from, and i'll gladly agree if there is credible evidence, since i'd rather not spank than spank a kid.

I've provided it, perhaps you'd like to provide clear concise evidence that it in fact does nothing ..in absolutely every case because unless you have 100% clear evidence that in 100% of the situations spanking does nothing then my argument stands ..even 1% disproves your assertation that corporall punishment leads to NO negative effects



more when I get a chance

 

[Raziaar]

If you get spanked you'll end up like this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYRhVcJsypg

LOL WTF. that guy is crazy.

What the hell is that from? lol

 

[CptStern]

And did your father explain to you what you had done wrong to warrant the punishment and give you a hug afterwards to revitalise the parent/child relationship and cement the bond and the understanding that the spanking was for love?

50% of the time

Do you consider your father abusive towards you and other children?

yes and no (at the time I didnt see it as abuse), but I dont blame him for it ..even he recognises that it might not have been the correct thing to do but at the time it was an acceptable form of discipline. He would never touch my son ..he's embarrassed and sorry that he acted the way he did

btw I eventually had a fist fight with my dad when I was 16 ..I had assert myself and I wasnt going to stand by and let him hit me like I did when I was a kid ..I absolutely hated him till I was in my early 20's

If you consider your spanking to be abusive, has this changed your outlook on how you raise your own children?

yes but that holds true for every parent ..not just in meteing out discipline

You come across as a person unable to back down from any sort of conflict and are unwilling to give ground on anything, do you feel your fathers spanking has created this inside you?

what does that have to do with anything? I cant for the life of me think of why you would associate being stubborn (which in a sec will prove isnt true) with physical violence?

if I'm "unwilling to back down on anything" as you put it surely overwhelming evidence proving me wrong would shut me up wouldnt it? could it possibly be the case that since you have provided zero concise evidence that your views of spanking trump my own doesnt it stand to reason that I wouldnt back down? Could that extend to pretty much every other discussion we've ever had? I mean how often have you proved me wrong ..I cant think of a single instance (I'm not being arrogant all I'm saying that when it came to facts I dont think I've ever presented material that wasnt factually true), but if you're so sure you could provide evidence of me "refusing to back down" by all means, I'm fairly open to criticism ..I may argue against it, but I'll listen to it :E

..I'm not one to shut up because an idea may be unpopular it often makes me seem arrogant/stubborn but in most instances I'm not basing it on opinion

btw not to be offensive but you have an annoying tendency to attack the messenger rather than the message ..this wouldnt be the first time you've attacked my personality and ignored the topic at hand. Having said that please try to refrain from taking every last of my posts so literal/personal ..I'm starting to think you think I'm gunning for you when that couldnt further from the truth ..if I come across as cold/arrogant I apologise but that's not reallymy intent ..in most cases I have no emotion when arguing a point

You also come across as a person that is unwilling to show any sort of violence at all and to run from any sort of physical altercation, again, has your fathers spanking caused you to shy away from pain and physical action?

you have no idea who I am ..I wouldnt for a split second hesitate to smash your teeth in should I feel you deserve it ..dont mistake anti-war with an inability to rearrange someone's face because if threatened I wont even bother to reason with the person unless I can see it actually having some sort of effect

Of course, all this is based on assumptions and pulling stuff from my arse and like you said, with no sat standard on how to raise your children, spanking can not be judged to be right or wrong scientifically. A lot of the members in here were spanked and yet still support spanking, why is this, they were "physically abused" as a child yet have grown up to be well adjusted individuals from what their posts can tell me.

read what I wrote in response to Ome_Vince ...t doesnt have to be so clear cut it can have a cumalitive effect ..and I have provided credible evidence that it does indeed have a negative effect

What i believe is that parents should be offered simple lessons on how to look after their children and shown how to discipline their children, or perhaps childcare should be made compulsary in school for everyone or perhaps go to the extreme that you require a license to have children, only available after taking lessons.

you do have a point ..the overwhelming majority of parents make glaring mistakes on a daily basis ..you really have to erase everything you know and start from scratch ..again this is impossible to prove unless you actually see it for yourself ..watch the nanny as someone suggested ..it gives you a good idea of how so many )other wise good ntentioned parents) make extremely poor choices when it comes to discipline

Every child is different, some require spanking, others don't. If a parent is spanking their children regularly, something is wrong, but with more and more kids running wild on the streets and parents

unless you can provide clear concise evidence that these kids are products of not being spanked then it's pretty much invalidated

unable or unwilling to discipline their children today,

I dont agree ..I'm probably the oldest person in this thread and one of the few people who believe spanking is ineffectual ..most of you will probably spank your kids (if this thread is any real indicator as to what people are like) ..are you saying that in every single circumstance the use of spanking ensures that kids wont run wild? ..let's see I've been arrested twice for fighting/police obstruction, I've done all kinds of drugs, broken all kinds of laws (misdemeanors mostly) and have had irresposible sex/relationships with dozens of women ..despite the fact that I went to a catholic school and my parents spanked them ..using your logic spanking me did absolutely nothing

something has to be done about it and making spanking illegal is not the right way to go as parents should be educated.

not going to happen ..it's easier to have a child than it is to file your taxes ..parents will continue to make the same mistakes over an over again ..and it doesnt even matter if they're good parents or not, they still make glaring mistakes

All the anti-spanking people all see spanking as being horrible child abuse, if thats so, you must be calling your own father as well as the parents of a lot of members on here evil child abusing thugs who don't deserve to have children and need their children taken away.

please try to be less alarmist/hysterical ..the abuse is just one facet, there's also teaching through the use of violence, subjecting your child to pain/fear. I submit that the problem children as you call them are most likely from homes that use spanking as a form of punishment ..violence begets violence

btw my son is almost angelic in his behaviour in comparison to some kids ..saw a 4 yr old the other day flinch when his mother raised her hand in a threatening manner (that same kid also pushed my son and about three others in our sportball class ..I would never want that for my child ..and I absolutely believe he will be a better person for it because I've seen first hand how effective it is



as a parent I find it absolutely horrific that so many of you would rather use physical punishment than positive reinforcement ..i hope by the time you do have kids you'll change your minds ..an innocent child's mind is a very fragile thing, dont live to regret your decisions because once you head down a certain road there's no turning back

 

[Raziaar]

as a parent I find it absolutely horrific that so many of you would rather use physical punishment than positive reinforcement ..i hope by the time you do have kids you'll change your minds ..an innocent child's mind is a very fragile thing, dont live to regret your decisions because once you head down a certain road there's no turning back

What are you *TALKING* about?

Who said we'd RATHER use physical punishment than positive reinforcement? Haven't you been listening when people on here have said it would be a last resort thing?


According to Stern, we all can't wait to get some kids of our own so we can beat their asses raw.

That is all kinds of messed up.

 

[CptStern]

What are you *TALKING* about?

Who said we'd RATHER use physical punishment than positive reinforcement? Haven't you been listening when people on here have said it would be a last resort thing?

you either spank or you dont

According to Stern, we all can't wait to get some kids of our own so we can beat their asses raw.

That is all kinds of messed up.

that's a huuuuuuge leap of faith and one hell of an assumption ..I also find it rather insulting that you would take something literally ..specifically when I never made such a clear cut statement ..I cant see anything I've wrritten that would lead anyone to that conclusion

 

[Raziaar]

You made the assumption that we prefer to go straight into spanking first, avoiding all other paths.

That's what I gather from this statement.

as a parent I find it absolutely horrific that so many of you would rather use physical punishment than positive reinforcement

 

[CptStern]

please point out where I said that

 

[Ome_Vince]

why must everything be so clar cut Vince? why should every single incident be of the magnitude that it causes permanent psychological damage for you to recognise it as a problem? the first time you lost a fight, you were humilated am I right? did that cause "permanent psychological damage"? probably not ..however if that was your experience on a frequent basis it might very well lead to permanent damage if the circumstances are right

being locked in your parents basement till the age of 8 will definately give you "permanent psychological damage" ..some far more than others ..some may walk away and through therapy may even fully recover ..others are not so lucky ..so in such circumstances the measuring stick is far easier to detect because it's catalyst is the single event ..whereas spanking may just be part of it ..so to summarise abuse leads to permanent psychological damage in most instances; spanking I propose has a cumalitive effect and could manifest in undesirable behaviour that may or may not directly link to spanking but could be a result of it ..since the patient wouldnt be able to identify his/her source of whatever pyschological problem they may have there is no way of quantifying exactly how large a role spanking may have had ..it's easy with abuse because that is always the catalyst ..not so obvious when there's no physical trauma

again see above, you're giving it such a narrow list of parameters that unless intensive reasearch is conducted specificaly comparing those two stipulations over many years using a huge study pool no absolutely conclusive evidence could be proven ..either for or against ...as I've already mentioned before what parent woul dwillingly submit their child to such a long study that could potentially cause negative effects
again ..it doesnt have to be pyschological damaging every single time for it to have an effect. But if I must indulge your single mindedness then so be it:

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

http://www.nospank.net/n-d66.htm

that's all you've provided thus far (except for the logical fallacy that you seem to adhere to that if society isnt very visibly affected then it stands to reason it has no negative impact ..you couldnt possibly prove that) .

I fail to see what that accomplishes except give the child the impression that solving problems with violence is ok ..if little jr deliberately punches your 3 year old daughter in the face causing her to lose a tooth would that be grounds for a spanking? ..if so arent you teaching him that the consequence of violence is ...more violence? let me ask you this ..would you allow your child's teacher to spank your child? if so under what circumstances? if not, why not? are you the sole facilitator of violence in your child's life?

none of those hurt, none of those teach that violence is neccesary sometimes, none of those teach that an acceptable way to deal with a problem is to use violence

please provide clear and concise evidence proving time outs are humilating.

please dont associate proven psychological methodology to pedestrian low browed advice giving masquerading as serious therapy ..Dr Phil is the "colour by numbers" equivilent of psychological study ..I mean any moron who sits there and thinks Dr Phil has any hope of fixing serious problems in 10 minutes in between commercials has no real grasp of psychology
Cmon, now your overreacting.

I've provided it, perhaps you'd like to provide clear concise evidence that it in fact does nothing ..in absolutely every case because unless you have 100% clear evidence that in 100% of the situations spanking does nothing then my argument stands ..even 1% disproves your assertation that corporall punishment leads to NO negative effects

more when I get a chance

I'm not going to quote-war this crap. What are you talking about: where am i the one making a statement that corporall punishment leads to 100% NO negative effects at all? And is it my task to prove that? wtf read instead of quote-waring.
Your making a statement that corporall punishment = per definition bad. So the burden is on you to back that up not the other way around.

Using the past and present as example is a logical fallacy because i have to prove 100% of the cases? No -> thats wrong, i'm using the past as example as to critisize your statement, -> society has worked well/balanced itself with/or without (mixed). I dont have to "review each individual case" to be able to say this.
Throughout history we can usually see patterns of what causes what (especially if something is severely damaging), vague but patterns are there. I dont see any pattern on this subject thats even remotely conclusive, at all. Thats where my comparisson comes from, and i'm asking you for credible evidence that this is "not" the case.

Dont turn this around Stern, there is no fallacy in reasoning asking for proof that an occasional spank is damaging, if that is whats being stated by you(i'm not the one making statements here, i'm just looking at yours critically).
Also, dont black & white it, as if i'm asking "does every spank = 100% psychological damage" cause thats not what i'm saying..

About everybody i know, ranging from friends, kids i worked with, our family, my parents + grand parents age, was raised with spanking of some sort (almost all occasional and not regular -> 1-2 times in a lifetime), and none of them turned out violant or with any psychological damage.
This doesnt mean its 100% "fine", but this does make the issue more complicated hence i'm asking for any evidence or research to back this issue/your statement up.
Thanks for the links, and its possible researchers and psychologists in the links you provided are right that regular spanking is bad for the kid.
I gladly agree.
Though I see a big difference between regularly solving issues with corporall punishment, and a 1-2-3 time in a lifetime spank when things get completely out of hand.

Please sterno, dont again twist and turn this, and just read what i'm saying.
All i'm doing is critisizing statements here (as i never blindly agree to this kind of vague stuff without looking at it critically), i'm not trying to make them as i'm not a psychologist. Preferbly i wouldnt spank a kid ever.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not going to quote-war this crap. What are you talking about: where am i the one making a statement that corporall punishment leads to 100% NO negative effects at all?

but that's the point ..you cannot prove it doesnt lead to ANY negative effects so in essence corporal punishment as a whole has negative repercussions ..there is no arguing this point because if you agree that in some ciircumstances not matter how far fetched or isolated it may be, it can have negative effects then you are disproving your own point

And is it my task to prove that?

yes it is ..if you say there are no negative effects to corporal punishment well then you have to prove it ..I've proved there are ..it doesnt matter if it's only in 0.0000000000000000001% of the cases ..I only have to prove one case

wtf read instead of quote-waring.

I thought it obvious that if I'm quoting your every word, I'm in fact reading what you've written

Your making a statement that corporall punishment = per definition bad.

because it is, if even one case is linked to causation (which you agree with further down this very post) then I am correct in saying that fundamentally it is bad

So the burden is on you to back that up not the other way around.

I just have ..you made the statement earlier that corporal punishment is not damaging ..you should probably back that up

Using the past and present as example is a logical fallacy because i have to prove 100% of the cases? No -> thats wrong,

no it's not. see above

i'm using the past as example as to critisize your statement, -> society has worked well/balanced itself with/or without (mixed).

? you think society is working out well?


http://uk.gay.com/headlines/8787
http://cbs5.com/local/local_story_128232649.html
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/43941.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAFR470441997?open&of=ENG-2F2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

I dont have to "review each individual case" to be able to say this.

yes you do ..you cant say corporal punishment has no negative effects without proving it 100% of the time

Throughout history we can usually see patterns of what causes what (especially if something is severely damaging), vague but patterns are there. I dont see any pattern on this subject thats even remotely conclusive, at all. Thats where my comparisson comes from, and i'm asking you for credible evidence that this is "not" the case.

I've linked to documented cases by respectable organisations that said in their research corporal punishment is detrimental and damaging ..you have to refute this in 100% of the cases I do not ..all I need is one case to disprove your statement that corporal punishment is not damaging ...nowhere have I said that that's the case in every single instance

Dont turn this around Stern, there is no fallacy in reasoning asking for proof that an occasional spank is damaging,

I never made that statement ..not once did I quantify how many times it is necessary to be damaging ..I've stated numerous times that that is impossible to judge without mass research ..even the studies I've linked to from Yale to the American medical assocation dont have that criteria as a basis for their reseach ..it's just impossible to prove without life long study of individual cases

if that is whats being stated by you(i'm not the one making statements here, i'm just looking at yours critically).
Also, dont black & white it, as if i'm asking "does every spank = 100% psychological damage" cause thats not what i'm saying..

then why do you think I'm doing the same?

About everybody i know, ranging from friends, kids i worked with, our family, my parents + grand parents age, was raised with spanking of some sort (almost all occasional and not regular -> 1-2 times in a lifetime), and none of them turned out violant or with any psychological damage.

your friends and family are hardly an accurate sampling of society. Furthermore not once did I say the only consequence to corporal punishment was further violence ..there are literally be thousands of repercussions ..either apparant or not. BTW you keep moving the goal post ..you said earlier "1 or 2 times a year" now it's 1 or 2 times a lifetime

This doesnt mean its 100% "fine", but this does make the issue more complicated hence i'm asking for any evidence or research to back this issue/your statement up.

I've already provided clear evidence corporal punishment is detrimental ..again I dont have to prove it is detrimental 100% of the time

Thanks for the links, and its possible researchers and psychologists in the links you provided are right that regular spanking is bad for the kid. I gladly agree.

point out where it says "regular" spanking. ..is there such a thing? the research avoids using quantifiers like duration, frequency, severity. Look man there's no way you can prove that it doesnt have some effect 100% of the time ..all you can do is draw from experience and even then you wouldnt be factual because for all you know the people in question may not even be aware that that is a causation to their current/past problems ...there are degrees of severity and with each degree there are those bound to affected and those that will not ...in literally dozens of areas of their lives from self worth to relationships to authority figures etc

Though I see a big difference between regularly solving issues with corporall punishment, and a 1-2-3 time in a lifetime spank when things get completely out of hand.

you keep moving the goal post ..you cant say for certain whether something is likely to have an affect till after the fact ..would every kid merit 1-2-3 times a lifetime? ..is 6 too much? is 2 too little?, is 2 too much 6 too little and 7 just right so long as you use open hand as opposed to belt? what set of circumstances has to happen before you feel using one of your 3 opportunities to spank someone? is violence against another child good enough reason, if so doesnt that reinforce that it's ok in some set of circumstances and not in others?

Please sterno, dont again twist and turn this, and just read what i'm saying.

I have ..every word of it ..I understand what you're saying ..I dont think you're understanding what I'm saying

All i'm doing is critisizing statements here (as i never blindly agree to this kind of vague stuff without looking at it critically), i'm not trying to make them as i'm not a psychologist. Preferbly i wouldnt spank a kid ever.

now you're saying you would never spank a kid ..I dont know what to believe ..you either spank or you dont ..to me it's not a matter for debate when it comes to my children ..I wouldnt tolerate someone hitting my child why wouldnt I apply the same rules to myself?

 

[Ome_Vince]

You see, here's where reading instead of quote-warring comes into place:
Where am i stating "corporal punishment has no negative effects 100% of the time".
Please point that out.

I also never said i would never spank a kid, i said preferbly I would never spank a kid ever.

I do understand where your getting at: if corporal punishment even has 0.0000001 chance of having a negative effect, then you say i've disproven my point and its my burden to prove otherwise, but that would be the case if i said corporal punishment has 100% no negative effect at all. Imo it does depend on the levels, the quantity and severeness of the corporal punishment in combination with other factors like the fact that each kid is different and requires a different/adjusted method of parenting.

At some point imo if the situation gets extreme, it could help discipline extreme cases (if done only once/minimal). Preferbly no, your right, but i wouldnt wave the "abuse" flag if a parent gives an extreme nasty kid a spank to get him back in line.

 

[Razor]

lol, all that crap was pulled out of my arse Cpt Stern and you do seem to take that any person who supports spanking uses it for any little thing. A parent should be allowed to spank their children but they should be taught when it is appropriate to and that in 99.9% of situations, spanking is not needed anyway. Spanking is not child abuse as long as it is done correctly.

 

[CptStern]

lol, all that crap was pulled out of my arse Cpt Stern and you do seem to take that any person who supports spanking uses it for any little thing. A parent should be allowed to spank their children but they should be taught when it is appropriate to and that in 99.9% of situations, spanking is not needed anyway. Spanking is not child abuse as long as it is done correctly.

according to whom? what constitutes abuse? if I leave a physical mark is that abuse? if I leave mental scars is that not abuse? you dont know what the outcome will be till you've already gone through with it ..you cant say with absolute certainty that the child you spank will walk away unscathed


EDIT: you guys are hurting my brain, I cant argue with 3 of you at the same time I'm starting to lose track on who said what

ome-Vince ...you're twisting my words .."corporal punishment has no negative effects 100% of the time" ..i never said that all I said was that that is your burden of proof ..quote wars are far more effective is because you can directly answer statements instead of cherry picking statements, pulling them out of context and twisting the meaning to support whatever you want it to support. I've made dozens of statemetns do me the favour of answering all of them because any less means you're acquiescing that point because you have nothing further to provide in supporting your point

edit: jeez that's a lot of garbled english, meh ignore the terrible grammar and just take the ideas I dont have time to be coherent every single time

 

[Ome_Vince]

yes you do ..you cant say corporal punishment has no negative effects without proving it 100% of the time

So you didnt say this ^^ . Ah right, that must be me twisting your words.
I said what i have to say, and all you have to respond is "i'm twisting your words".

Quote-warring is an effective method to twist individual sentances out of context, its a "technique" you happily use because you can nit-pick somebodies post and push them in the corner you want.
Its funny how you say not-quote warring is "cherry picking statements, pulling them out of context and twisting the meaning to support whatever you want it to support.", since thats exactly what quote-warring is and what you do. lol
You dont have any idea what i'm saying, and keep pushing as if i'm stating corporal punishment has absolutely no negative effect at all, (or that i have to take that position)
This discussion is over, you keep thinking that, i've stated that imo psychological damage/negative effects depends on a variety of obvious matters clustering.
I'm sick of going back and forth convincing you what you assume i'm saying is not what i'm actually saying. lol

//ontopic:
A nice URL with info: http://www.corpun.com/
*reading

 

[Raziaar]

//ontopic:
A nice URL with info: http://www.corpun.com/
*reading

That clip on there...

I don't think spanking should be allowed anywhere in education. It's something for the parents to do against their own children... in a non excessive manner, and used as a last resort.


EDIT: LOL why do they call it 'lick'?

"Students get 1-3 licks on the buttocks"

That sounds nasty.

 

[Razor]

according to whom? what constitutes abuse? if I leave a physical mark is that abuse? if I leave mental scars is that not abuse? you dont know what the outcome will be till you've already gone through with it ..you cant say with absolute certainty that the child you spank will walk away unscathed


EDIT: you guys are hurting my brain, I cant argue with 3 of you at the same time I'm starting to lose track on who said what

ome-Vince ...you're twisting my words .."corporal punishment has no negative effects 100% of the time" ..i never said that all I said was that that is your burden of proof ..quote wars are far more effective is because you can directly answer statements instead of cherry picking statements, pulling them out of context and twisting the meaning to support whatever you want it to support. I've made dozens of statemetns do me the favour of answering all of them because any less means you're acquiescing that point because you have nothing further to provide in supporting your point

edit: jeez that's a lot of garbled english, meh ignore the terrible grammar and just take the ideas I dont have time to be coherent every single time

Screaming and shouting causes more mental abuse that a light slap across the arse cheeks and a big "i love you which is why i spanked you" afterwards.

 

[CptStern]

Screaming and shouting causes more mental abuse that a light slap across the arse cheeks and a big "i love you which is why i spanked you" afterwards.

you're comparing the worst of one scenario with the best of another ..you cant give an uniform response that applies to everyone equally

 

[Geogaddi]

Stern, show me on the doll where your daddy touches you.

 

[CptStern]

lol!

 

[Hectic Glenn]

Ah dear me, huge quote wars which i take hours to read through Can't you guys agree to disagree? Unresolved conflict is the basis of the world we live in, and it works! (for a while).

 

[Raziaar]

Ah dear me, huge quote wars which i take hours to read through Can't you guys agree to disagree? Unresolved conflict is the basis of the world we live in, and it works! (for a while).

Yes. Lock this thread please. It was brought back to life unnaturally, and it's about time the zombie dies.

 

[Ennui]

spankings dumb i just punch small children in the face

 

[CptStern]

Ah dear me, huge quote wars which i take hours to read through Can't you guys agree to disagree? Unresolved conflict is the basis of the world we live in, and it works! (for a while).

YUO SHUT UP FACE AND D1E

/me throws grenade

oh no it's glenny

/me runs and dives on grenade, Stern is given medal by queen for heroism ..well she pins it to the box that contains his remains