U
Uncle Ho
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I'm hoping to see one soon
HL : Source (Full Overhaul Modification)
- Thread starter jheaddon
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Fang
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I ventured into this thread late, so my apologies for rehashing points that have already been beaten into submission.
My first reaction after playing HL2 was, "wow." My second reaction, though, was to think how cool HL:S would be if it were redone with the same level detail and model quality found in HL2. I found this thread and Leakfree's similar endeavor while searching for people who felt the same way.
After reading through all 22 pages, I find myself siding very strongly with people like Logic, TriggerHappy, and Darkside55, who believe that Black Mesa: Source should strive to hit the very narrow sweet spot between a simple port of HL1 (i.e. HL:S) and a "reinterpretation" of HL. I think Carbon, with his superb tram model, and Mechagodzilla's perceptive and level-headed (pun intended) level change suggestions are spot on. The Half-Life canon is set by Valve, and deviating from that breaks potential compatibility with future Half-Life games. There's a difference between "improvement" and "change"; striving for the former and avoiding the latter will guarantee that the mod benefits from HL's brilliant design without risking adulterating influences. I'm also in favor of importing HL2 models where applicable, since it saves time and guarantees compatibility with the second game.
One of the things touched on so far is sound design and music. The importance of sound cannot be overrated--just try substituting Bach for the music in Doom 3. Half-Life was very spare with the music, which helped make it immersive and enhanced the player's response when music was introduced. The sparsity of the sound also emphasized the emptiness of Black Mesa and made bursts of gunfire or the howls of monsters startling. I recommend touching the sound and music only where absolutely necessary.
Finally, one of the things mentioned in a review of HL:S is that the movement is still fast and "slidey." Motion and physics response should be tweaked so that gameplay feels like HL2. This I could actually help with, since I'm a programmer.
This mod has the potential to be the coolest thing since the invention of beer, what with all the talented and creative people involved, and I'd like to be a part of it. However, I think the cathedral-building example should be taken to heart: Cathedrals took two or three generations to build, so some cathedrals have one section built according to the original architect's design, another section done in the style of his successor, and so on. The result is an ugly hodgepodge of design trends. The most beautiful cathedrals are those where subsequent architects subordinated their ideas of how they would design a cathedral in the interests of creating a thing of unified beauty. They took what existed and extended it in its original style, resulting in the most beautiful buildings in the world. If this mod takes the same attitude, I don't see how it could avoid being good.
My first reaction after playing HL2 was, "wow." My second reaction, though, was to think how cool HL:S would be if it were redone with the same level detail and model quality found in HL2. I found this thread and Leakfree's similar endeavor while searching for people who felt the same way.
After reading through all 22 pages, I find myself siding very strongly with people like Logic, TriggerHappy, and Darkside55, who believe that Black Mesa: Source should strive to hit the very narrow sweet spot between a simple port of HL1 (i.e. HL:S) and a "reinterpretation" of HL. I think Carbon, with his superb tram model, and Mechagodzilla's perceptive and level-headed (pun intended) level change suggestions are spot on. The Half-Life canon is set by Valve, and deviating from that breaks potential compatibility with future Half-Life games. There's a difference between "improvement" and "change"; striving for the former and avoiding the latter will guarantee that the mod benefits from HL's brilliant design without risking adulterating influences. I'm also in favor of importing HL2 models where applicable, since it saves time and guarantees compatibility with the second game.
One of the things touched on so far is sound design and music. The importance of sound cannot be overrated--just try substituting Bach for the music in Doom 3. Half-Life was very spare with the music, which helped make it immersive and enhanced the player's response when music was introduced. The sparsity of the sound also emphasized the emptiness of Black Mesa and made bursts of gunfire or the howls of monsters startling. I recommend touching the sound and music only where absolutely necessary.
Finally, one of the things mentioned in a review of HL:S is that the movement is still fast and "slidey." Motion and physics response should be tweaked so that gameplay feels like HL2. This I could actually help with, since I'm a programmer.
This mod has the potential to be the coolest thing since the invention of beer, what with all the talented and creative people involved, and I'd like to be a part of it. However, I think the cathedral-building example should be taken to heart: Cathedrals took two or three generations to build, so some cathedrals have one section built according to the original architect's design, another section done in the style of his successor, and so on. The result is an ugly hodgepodge of design trends. The most beautiful cathedrals are those where subsequent architects subordinated their ideas of how they would design a cathedral in the interests of creating a thing of unified beauty. They took what existed and extended it in its original style, resulting in the most beautiful buildings in the world. If this mod takes the same attitude, I don't see how it could avoid being good.
Zeus said:
I second that.
I say it should be for both HL2 and HL: Source, but the difference is the HL2 mod version will weigh much more than the HL: Source one as it'll probably just be a turn on/off-able upgrade. That's fair enough, isn't it? Unless VALVe Software have a problem with selling something much worse than something you can download for free.
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Fang
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If I'm not mistaken, HL:S already has AI enhancements applied to some, if not all, of the enemies.jheaddon said:
Mediocrity
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Fang said:
Any idea how significant those enhancements are? It'd be pretty odd to see the old HL Marines running and shooting at the same time.
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cdgoin
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How about redoing HL1 and incorporating them WITH HL2.
Not as a seperate MOD per se. But when you play the game it opens with HL1 as being the first chapter, then to clear and inconsistancies in storyline and fill the gap between HL:1 and HL:2, have a few other chapters created (Say called HL:1.5) , borrowing of course from the other MODs and Storys already out there (like Blue Shift, etc..)
Then releasing it all as one game that plays from beginning to end. By the time this is all done Valve can release HL:3, which of course will introduce more inconisistancies and gaps in storyline so HL:2.5 will be created as HL:1.5 was so they all merge..
Or is hoping to have one consistant storyline as hopeless as having one consistant Star Trek storyline (The Star Trek MMORG designers are going to have fun with that aren't they) or X-Files storyline?
Not as a seperate MOD per se. But when you play the game it opens with HL1 as being the first chapter, then to clear and inconsistancies in storyline and fill the gap between HL:1 and HL:2, have a few other chapters created (Say called HL:1.5) , borrowing of course from the other MODs and Storys already out there (like Blue Shift, etc..)
Then releasing it all as one game that plays from beginning to end. By the time this is all done Valve can release HL:3, which of course will introduce more inconisistancies and gaps in storyline so HL:2.5 will be created as HL:1.5 was so they all merge..
Or is hoping to have one consistant storyline as hopeless as having one consistant Star Trek storyline (The Star Trek MMORG designers are going to have fun with that aren't they) or X-Files storyline?
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Logic
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As far as you (Gordon Freeman) are concerned, the start of Half-Life 2 is the first thing you see after the ending of Half-Life. There's no gap to fill in, unless you were to become a different character, and then go back to Gordon, which wouldn't flow.cdgoin said:
Incidentally, what's inconsistant about the storyline? I see nothing in HL2 that contradicts anything revealed in the first game, or subsequent expansions.
As far as joining them up into one big mod goes, you could always just quit and load the next game, right?
Sure, you'd be taken out of the immersion for a minute or so, but at least it's at times when Gordon's not supposed to be conscious anyway . Seems like unnecessary additional effort to me.
C
cdgoin
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I guess its been so long since I played HL:1 that I couldn't remember the ending quite well. Just some kind of explination on how you end up on that train 10 years later would be nice.
As for the Chapters, I just was basically agreeing that they could rewrite the whole HL game in the same style, same models, etc.. as HL2. Not just a port like they have done with HL:S. Then incorporate it all as one game.
As for the Chapters, I just was basically agreeing that they could rewrite the whole HL game in the same style, same models, etc.. as HL2. Not just a port like they have done with HL:S. Then incorporate it all as one game.
The Dark Elf
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They started out as a proper remake from scratch, now it seems to be just texture replacements like the others are doingKristafon said:
TDE - Already said mate that the texture replacement is only for HL:S owners (along with models, sounds and if they wish, maps)
They HL2 version is still an overhaul with maps getting more of an upgrade in architecture and visuals
They HL2 version is still an overhaul with maps getting more of an upgrade in architecture and visuals
The Dark Elf
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Just seems like a waste of time making texture replacements for a version of HL1 thats already had texture replacements done on it.. Especially considering none of the new textures teams are doing contain anything more than basic textures.jheaddon said:
I'd concentrate on doing the full version only, otherwise you'll all get bored way before then and it'll never happen.
Mr.Wotsit
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Doesn't it make a lot of sense to redo what's there at the moment and then move on to adding in the cool new ideas?
My view is that any testures that can be reused should be as long as the style of the mod remains consistent. Obviously Eli would need a little modding though.
My view is that any testures that can be reused should be as long as the style of the mod remains consistent. Obviously Eli would need a little modding though.
TDE - We aren't actually working on any of the HL:S patches till later, the patches will be our HL2 content at bare minimum. We are still going ahead with your idea of modelling each texture with alot of detail and the texture maps.
Mr.Wotsit - We are already doing this, we are leaving the bits which we can develop with for now and will redo them when they are absolutely critical. I for one won't be mapping with any textures for a while, all orange level to start with.
Mr.Wotsit - We are already doing this, we are leaving the bits which we can develop with for now and will redo them when they are absolutely critical. I for one won't be mapping with any textures for a while, all orange level to start with.
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That seems like an odd decision.
Valve used the orange textures to they could concentrate on layout and flow of the map. You're remaking maps, and so have no such requirement.
Surely the optimal method is to create the new geometry using the original textures, replacing them with new ones as and when they are completed.
Valve used the orange textures to they could concentrate on layout and flow of the map. You're remaking maps, and so have no such requirement.
Surely the optimal method is to create the new geometry using the original textures, replacing them with new ones as and when they are completed.
C
CyberGeek
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First, I just want to say that this is a cool idea and I would love to play a far more visually enhanced version of Half-Life on the Source engine.
I have a suggestion. In the three official expansions to the Half-Life storyline - those being Opposing Force, Blue Shift, and Decay - there are several points where the game crosses over with the original Half-Life. It would be very nice if you could make sure that these crossover points fit in with the expansions. This will require that some extra care be taken at these points, and sometimes you may need to add something like an additional door, but it will greatly improve the consistency between HL and the expansions.
The best reason for doing this would be if any other team decides to do an Opposing Force: Source, Blue Shift: Source or Decay: Source. If a team does this, and you're willing to share points of crossover with the team, there will be nice consistency across the mods.
Just for reference, I've made note of and detailed all the points of crossover. Note that I pretty much assume that you haven't played any of them, just to be safe, so don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence when you hear me say that the Barney at the beginning of HL's tram ride is the player character in Blue Shift.
Opposing Force
-The cliff wall in Surface Tension is shown during Opposing Force's introductory sequence. The Osprey that the player is in flies along the side of the wall. You will need to make certain that an Osprey could conceivably fly past it (don't make the wall opposite the cliff wall only be a few feet away or anything.) If you play this part in HL:S you'll notice that there's a nice new 3D Skybox that makes it look like you're in a large canyon. This is a good way for it to look, though you may want to make it look like the far ends continue on, rather than creating what is effectively a gigantic bowl.
In fact, you may wish to replace the jets that you see fly by with Ospreys, just so the player can think that it's Shephard going by. Given as Shephard arrives rather late into the Black Mesa incident, it's conceivable that he was flying by right around the same time that Freeman walked across the wall.
-The alien planes that sometimes fly by (and that you need to hitch a ride on at one point in Xen) appear in Opposing Force, Blue Shift, and Decay. I include this because they're constructed out of brushes in all 3. It would aide another team if you would be willing to share your work on it.
-Introductory Tram Ride: The part with crossing arms where your tram stops so that a robotic walker can go into a tunnel and a truck hauling some cargo can drive by appears in Opposing Force.
-Introductory Tram Ride: The other part with a robotic walker also appears. This is the part where the G-Man and a scientist are stranded in another tram car and the robotic walker is walking towards nuclear sewage. Note that in Opposing Force the player pushes a cart with supplies to the door of the stranded car, so keep it relatively close to the concrete floor.
-Shephard goes into the massive teleporter room in Lambda Labs just as Freeman runs into the teleporter to Xen. The large door that is never opened in the original HL is what lets Shephard in, so it needs to stay.
-The dam in Surface Tension appears. A Garg will be there, so make it wide enough for one to stand on its surface. In addition, Shephard comes in through the blast door next to the turret, so it should remain as well.
-Shephard has the opportunity to go into a room in the Hazard Course, but there is little that should be noted about it. Decay, on the other hand, will require special attention be payed to the Hazard Course.
Blue Shift
-Introductory Tram Ride: The Barney that you see beating the door at the very beginning of the ride is the player character from Blue Shift. Note that in HL the door he is beating against is protruding out from the wall. It should actually be set into the wall. Also, at the far end of the platform there should be some extendable stairs that the Blue Shift player will use to get from the tram on to the platform.
-In Blue Shift, the player sees the sequence where Freeman has been knocked out and is being dragged by soldiers. He views it through a grate on the bottom of the wall, but as long as the camera perspective in that sequence remains the same as the original HL, you shouldn't have to worry about any sort of conflict.
Decay
There's only one part to pay attention to for Decay, but it's a big one. In Decay the player revisits the Hazard Course and journey's over much of it, so there's quite a few points to be careful about. First and foremost are the four rooms where you jump three times, then duck three times, then jump twice and duck once, then jump-duck three times. There's a lot to make note of, so I made a rough map of the area:
http://donald.hays.org/pics/decaymap.jpg
The darker grey areas are where the player walks in HL. The red bars are the red bars the player jumps and ducks over. The light grey areas are the observation decks, except the squares in the room on the bottom which are the pipes the player must duck-jump through. The player in HL starts in the room on the left and traverses clockwise to the room on the bottom.
First thing to note is that apparently toxic sewage flows through the red pipes, so keep them as red pipes, don't make them wood bars or anything.
The blue parts on the map are regular doors that the Decay player will go through. These don't exist in the original HL's Hazard Course but should be added anyway, if for no other reason than to give the poor scientists a way out of the rooms.
The purple parts are mounted keyboards and monitors. These are used by the scientists to let the HL player go on to the subsequent rooms, and by Dr. Rosenberg in Decay to allow the Decay player into the Hazard Course.
If you can add metal grates that could slide down in front of the windows between the rooms and the observation decks, it would be great. They exist and open from a closed state in Decay.
The green area is a set of elevator doors with accompanying elevator button.
That's the most detailed part, the next few are much easier.
-You may wish to put a doorway under the entryway to the shooting range. The Decay player will enter the shooting range here.
-The grate just outside the exit of the shooting range with the crawlway underneath should remain because the Decay player will crawl through there. Obviously the crawlway should be tall enough that a player can crawl through it.
-Just in case there's any doubt, the turrets at the very end should remain. The player in Decay will have to destroy them.
That should cover all the crossover points, hope it helps. Once again, I look forward to the mod!
I have a suggestion. In the three official expansions to the Half-Life storyline - those being Opposing Force, Blue Shift, and Decay - there are several points where the game crosses over with the original Half-Life. It would be very nice if you could make sure that these crossover points fit in with the expansions. This will require that some extra care be taken at these points, and sometimes you may need to add something like an additional door, but it will greatly improve the consistency between HL and the expansions.
The best reason for doing this would be if any other team decides to do an Opposing Force: Source, Blue Shift: Source or Decay: Source. If a team does this, and you're willing to share points of crossover with the team, there will be nice consistency across the mods.
Just for reference, I've made note of and detailed all the points of crossover. Note that I pretty much assume that you haven't played any of them, just to be safe, so don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence when you hear me say that the Barney at the beginning of HL's tram ride is the player character in Blue Shift.
Opposing Force
-The cliff wall in Surface Tension is shown during Opposing Force's introductory sequence. The Osprey that the player is in flies along the side of the wall. You will need to make certain that an Osprey could conceivably fly past it (don't make the wall opposite the cliff wall only be a few feet away or anything.) If you play this part in HL:S you'll notice that there's a nice new 3D Skybox that makes it look like you're in a large canyon. This is a good way for it to look, though you may want to make it look like the far ends continue on, rather than creating what is effectively a gigantic bowl.
In fact, you may wish to replace the jets that you see fly by with Ospreys, just so the player can think that it's Shephard going by. Given as Shephard arrives rather late into the Black Mesa incident, it's conceivable that he was flying by right around the same time that Freeman walked across the wall.
-The alien planes that sometimes fly by (and that you need to hitch a ride on at one point in Xen) appear in Opposing Force, Blue Shift, and Decay. I include this because they're constructed out of brushes in all 3. It would aide another team if you would be willing to share your work on it.
-Introductory Tram Ride: The part with crossing arms where your tram stops so that a robotic walker can go into a tunnel and a truck hauling some cargo can drive by appears in Opposing Force.
-Introductory Tram Ride: The other part with a robotic walker also appears. This is the part where the G-Man and a scientist are stranded in another tram car and the robotic walker is walking towards nuclear sewage. Note that in Opposing Force the player pushes a cart with supplies to the door of the stranded car, so keep it relatively close to the concrete floor.
-Shephard goes into the massive teleporter room in Lambda Labs just as Freeman runs into the teleporter to Xen. The large door that is never opened in the original HL is what lets Shephard in, so it needs to stay.
-The dam in Surface Tension appears. A Garg will be there, so make it wide enough for one to stand on its surface. In addition, Shephard comes in through the blast door next to the turret, so it should remain as well.
-Shephard has the opportunity to go into a room in the Hazard Course, but there is little that should be noted about it. Decay, on the other hand, will require special attention be payed to the Hazard Course.
Blue Shift
-Introductory Tram Ride: The Barney that you see beating the door at the very beginning of the ride is the player character from Blue Shift. Note that in HL the door he is beating against is protruding out from the wall. It should actually be set into the wall. Also, at the far end of the platform there should be some extendable stairs that the Blue Shift player will use to get from the tram on to the platform.
-In Blue Shift, the player sees the sequence where Freeman has been knocked out and is being dragged by soldiers. He views it through a grate on the bottom of the wall, but as long as the camera perspective in that sequence remains the same as the original HL, you shouldn't have to worry about any sort of conflict.
Decay
There's only one part to pay attention to for Decay, but it's a big one. In Decay the player revisits the Hazard Course and journey's over much of it, so there's quite a few points to be careful about. First and foremost are the four rooms where you jump three times, then duck three times, then jump twice and duck once, then jump-duck three times. There's a lot to make note of, so I made a rough map of the area:
http://donald.hays.org/pics/decaymap.jpg
The darker grey areas are where the player walks in HL. The red bars are the red bars the player jumps and ducks over. The light grey areas are the observation decks, except the squares in the room on the bottom which are the pipes the player must duck-jump through. The player in HL starts in the room on the left and traverses clockwise to the room on the bottom.
First thing to note is that apparently toxic sewage flows through the red pipes, so keep them as red pipes, don't make them wood bars or anything.
The blue parts on the map are regular doors that the Decay player will go through. These don't exist in the original HL's Hazard Course but should be added anyway, if for no other reason than to give the poor scientists a way out of the rooms.
The purple parts are mounted keyboards and monitors. These are used by the scientists to let the HL player go on to the subsequent rooms, and by Dr. Rosenberg in Decay to allow the Decay player into the Hazard Course.
If you can add metal grates that could slide down in front of the windows between the rooms and the observation decks, it would be great. They exist and open from a closed state in Decay.
The green area is a set of elevator doors with accompanying elevator button.
That's the most detailed part, the next few are much easier.
-You may wish to put a doorway under the entryway to the shooting range. The Decay player will enter the shooting range here.
-The grate just outside the exit of the shooting range with the crawlway underneath should remain because the Decay player will crawl through there. Obviously the crawlway should be tall enough that a player can crawl through it.
-Just in case there's any doubt, the turrets at the very end should remain. The player in Decay will have to destroy them.
That should cover all the crossover points, hope it helps. Once again, I look forward to the mod!
B
Blood.Bullet
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Does anyone have any idea how long this will take? I want this as much as HL3. I've never played HL1 so for me this is like playing a whole new HL game. Anyone hve an estimate? Please?!?!?!?
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Not very long :|Blood.Bullet said:
The Dark Elf
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It'll take a lot longer than not very long if they're gonna do a good job of it.Alan Freeman said:
The Dark Elf
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They should put together a whole group of security guards. Never show the same one twice unless he or she is supposed to be there, have Barney in a certain place, or places but the rest should be other Security peeps, with different voices, different names, appearances etc.AJ Rimmer said:
The Dark Elf
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You'll just have to fall for them all over again, never know, maybe Barney's got a younger brother who works there too hehe, oh and it _definately_ need some trigger happy security guard who thinks he's rambo (waits for a certain person to notice that and chuckle)AJ Rimmer said:
AJ Rimmer
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Well, we also need someone who live by the ancient principal of AJ Rimmer: When the going get's tough I find a good hiding place.The Dark Elf said:You'll just have to fall for them all over again, never know, maybe Barney's got a younger brother who works there too hehe, oh and it _definately_ need some trigger happy security guard who thinks he's rambo (waits for a certain person to notice that and chuckle)
The Dark Elf
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There needs to be loads of anal work gone into giving each and every person in BM a background too.. and then make it all modable for others to use whats there to come up with even more HL1 type adventures. heh.AJ Rimmer said:
The Dark Elf
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I'd say so yeah, keep Barney's intact, just make him look more like he does in HL2 only younger, then put lots of effort into the other guards, who knows, one of the new ones might become popular, or even one of the new scientists dotted about the place. Then you want maintainance workers, janitors etc.AJ Rimmer said:
Ñ
.ñµkËz
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Unfortunately, I don't know enough to help, but I would be very interested about being a tester for the game, as I played HL1 on it's release day, and I am a very experienced gamer.
