HL : Source (Full Overhaul Modification)

[-Stratesiz-]

I'm talking about years, not months.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I'm talking about years, not months.

So am I..


Why rush something out in months when it can be done really well in years.. The versions cropping out in months will be little to no different from the official HL1:S.. and there's not much point in doing it if its so similar to that one.

 

[comoxer]

Love the concept art on front page very HR giger :E

 

[-Stratesiz-]

I'm not talking about rushing. If you want to do something with great quality, you will need a dozen mappers because each map part will require an immense amount of time to plan and create. And given that in source, you need a mapper, a texture artist, a modeler to create someting one person could have done well previously. So having like two or three working on something that is as long as HL will take forever if you do it well. It would turn into a full time job and you would still require more mappers like Valve has.
Bottomline is that do they know how much commitment is requires? Singleplayer projects are a completely different ballgame than multiplayer mods.
Guess how long Nightwatch has been worked on.

 

[jheaddon]

Great to hear all the interest, if anyone else would like to express their help in anyway, feel free to pm me or email (or some other crazy method, just as posting here?).

Stratesiz, we're not planning on being finished by new years kind of time, this will be a fairly on-going project.

Your comment on ten mappers though... I don't think quite that many will be required, yes there will be a fair bit of work to do, but we plan on using Cabal esque techniques for the design, aswell as community support through releasing the design document on the website.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I'm not talking about rushing. If you want to do something with great quality, you will need a dozen mappers because each map part will require an immense amount of time to plan and create. And given that in source, you need a mapper, a texture artist, a modeler to create someting one person could have done well previously. So having like two or three working on something that is as long as HL will take forever if you do it well. It would turn into a full time job and you would still require more mappers like Valve has.
Bottomline is that do they know how much commitment is requires? Singleplayer projects are a completely different ballgame than multiplayer mods.
Guess how long Nightwatch has been worked on.

I've 3plenty of commercial games under my belt since the early 90's, you tell me?

While all I'm doing on this mod is the Xen concepts.. I'm confident they'll pull it off, and I hope they do, someone needs to do a good version since Valve dont seem to be wanting to, which is a shame. i'd have waited another five years for a HL2 style remake of HL1, even would have bought it, I'm sure a lot of people would have.


Edit: I'm not wasting my 10,000 post on tutoriing newbies so I'll just edit this one....


Biomechanical is the STYLE, Biomechanical, Surrealism, Biomechanics..

A Biomechanoid is a creature made from flesh AND something it wasn't born with.. it does not have to be metal.

Biomechanical is the agreed name for H. R. Giger's style of which I follow, and was given to it BECAUSE some of his paintings depict flesh/otherthings hybrids. It does not automatically mean EVERYTHING must have some metal in it. Many of his creatures were biomechanoids and yet didn't even have metal in them atall. His landscape images were biomechanoids, his baby landscapes were biomechanoids.. no metal in those.

Please people, before attacking a style of artwork, study it first.

 

[X-Vector]

This one, by all accounts is staying true to the original.

Yes Xen does look different [...]

This looks a bit schizophrenic - it's staying faithful to the original, but it's not.
Such an in-between approach runs the risk of producing a neither-fish-nor-flesh product, IMO it would be better to either do a faithful port with no thematical changes and only minor architectural updates or to create a new design "inspired by" Valve's work.
The latter would probably be too ambitious a project for a team this size, though.

Besides, the Garg and that headcrab laying thingy were very Biomechanical in nature.. As was the tentacles, barnacles etc. Heck the Headcrabs are a direct rip from Face Huggers.

I may have neglected to educate myself on the nature of the alien fauna in HL, but what evidence is there to prove that any of these creatures are partly mechanical?
IMO this isn't overtly suggested in the game at all, for one thing I would consider it rather strange that the tentacle creature would burn to a stump with no metallic residue if it has a mechanical structure.
To me, it seems to be a purely biological being; more plant than animal, even.

NB: as far as I know, the facehuggers from Alien aren't biomechanical either.

 

[Logic]

Yes Xen does look different, doesn't mean it wont be any more enjoyable, it just fits in better now with the way the combine look. A "dirtier" biomechanical world than the cleaner combine style, but still recognisable.

But that's assuming the combine actually have any relation to the xen and the xen aliens, which we don't actually know. I really don't like the idea that these sorts of liberties are being taken, mainly because I want more than anything for this project to be perfect. I want an updated HL as much as anyone... but to make design changes that rely on assumptions about the story, risks directly contradicting parts of the story that Valve are yet to tell with HL3 (and of course HL2, which we haven't played yet). The only way to garantee that this game will be compatable with the HL universe is to recreate things in such a way that the basic design remains exactly the same.

I appreciate what you're all trying to do with this mod, and will follow it's development and even help out where I can, but I just don't think it's right to be re-interpreting things. If something is "biomechanical", that basically means that it has been partially engineered to be the way it is, which (if it turns out that the Xen aliens and environments formed naturally) is too big of a plot change in my opinion.

Valve have said that while the player won't visit Xen in HL2, "parts of Xen have come to Earth", or something similar. At least wait and see what those places look like, and base the look of this project's Xen on that... after all, if HL3 or an expansion has some time in Xen, and it looks lush and organic and very different to the xen in this project, there will no longer be continuity, and as demonstrated by fans of films, books, films based on books, tv series, etc etc etc, nothing annoys a fan of something more than a lack of continuity, especially when it's a remake.

 

[NetWarriorDan]

If you want something that is exactly the same you should play HL:S. What we are doing is a remake HL to retell the story. I don't know how many remakes you have seen but the ones I have seen are always different. Some of you think this should be done without creativity. If we did that we would copy every useless detail and add nothing to it. We don't think this makes for a good remake. Some of you will disagree but I am confident they will change their mind once we release something playable. We intend to make use of the important things from HL. Such as the story, story telling, mood, etc. But what we will avoid is limitations of the HL engine.

 

[Logic]

If you want something that is exactly the same you should play HL:S. What we are doing is a remake HL to retell the story. I don't know how many remakes you have seen but the ones I have seen are always different. Some of you think this should be done without creativity. If we did that we would copy every useless detail and add nothing to it. We don't think this makes for a good remake. Some of you will disagree but I am confident they will change their mind once we release something playable. We intend to make use of the important things from HL. Such as the story, story telling, mood, etc. But what we will avoid is limitations of the HL engine.

I'm not saying this project should be done "without creativity". I'm not saying you should copy "every useless detail", and I'm certainly not saying you should limit yourself to "limitations of the HL engine". You're not really listening to what I'm saying, and putting words in my mouth.

Of course, as a remake, things need to be re-built from scratch, and changed in various ways to make use of the latest technology, but why should that involve changing designs in ways that actually affect the storyline? There is a huge, critical difference between biomechanical and biological, and there is no real reason to make such a change. The only way this project can stay true to the original is if the look and design of the locations is maintained (at the very least in a general way) to be the same as the original.

Changing the very essence of what Xen is risks directly contradicting Valve's story, which they haven't even finished telling yet. Surely if you love Half-Life enough to re-make it, you would want to honor Valve's creative decisions and official designs, and just bring them up to date technologically. This project shouldn't be about demonstrating what cool things you can come up with creatively... that's for original mods to do. This should be all about bringing Valve's game, how they intended it to be, to today's gaming audience, not re-making Half-Life how you personally would have done it. Once again I'm just worried you guys are making changes too liberally.

No offense, but when I play an overhaul of Half-Life, I don't want to play YOUR game. I want to play Valve's game, Half-Life, with the bells and whistles, and a level of detail and quality, that new technology affords. And don't tell me to play HL:S, because we both know very well that that's not what it is.

 

[Kalashnikov]

Alright.....

.... I'm from the LeakFree Development Community, I read about this from the news at Halflife2-mods.net and we also have started this idea and code named it 'Black Mesa: Source'. We started this project back in September and have gotten a fair bit of progress in terms of setting up, planning, details, etc. The prelude of both ideas are the exact same "What Valve is doing is far too simple and the community needs to improve it". I'm just letting you know this so in case something stumbles over to LeakFree and starts complaining about idea theft, etc. Anyways, I think it would be awesome if the two teams came together to work on it, but of course it all depends upon both parties.

I'm pretty much the project lead over at LeakFree for Black Mesa: Source, so if you're interested in joining together then contact me over @ [email protected] . Overall it would be better if both parties came together and worked together making more progress rather then having the two teams work seperate and then having two modifications released.

Our area for development of Black Mesa: Source can be found:
http://forum.leakfree.org/viewforum.php?f=33

 

[The Dark Elf]

But that's assuming the combine actually have any relation to the xen and the xen aliens, which we don't actually know.

They ran things, besides just look at the gunship, strider, dropship, those are biomechanoids, a cleaner style which indicates simply a different race of creature was used. Xen style is biomechanoid to a different degree, and being a different race, some of which appeared to be genetically engineered another way.. it makes even more sense.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

Uhh, no, those don't look biomechanical at all; they look like machines that have organic visual influences; not like machines that were grown and have fleshy bitss.

Also, Xen never looked biomechanical (Especially the level geomotry; which looks like a bunch of floating ROCKS for crying out loud.. not even the least bit organic); also the various flora and fauna looked organic, even though Valve could have easily have made them look more machine like.

Finally, even IF the Combine was in control of Xen (Which, at the moment, nobody knows (And if you DO know for some reason; don't spoil the rest of us, K?)) it doesn't neccassarily mean Xen is going to look biomechanical. The Combine is in control of Earth in Half-Life 2; but naturally occuring flora and fauna doesn't look biomechanical. Unless they built Xen from the ground up; there's no reason for it to look like a bunch of living machines. Especially since the Combine hasn't shown any prediliction towards biomachinery from the media we've seen.

 

[Logic]

I agree.

Xen, to me, always seemed very natural... lots of mossy rocks, water, and native life (tentacle plant things, the retracting light plant thing, flying manta type creatures).. the actual creatures\monsters look more akin to crustaceans than biomechanoids. Even if the combine were in control of Xen, it would seem likely that they took it over (after the events in HL) in order to have control of the "border world", from which they could prepare their invasion of earth, and eventually launch it. Nothing whatsoever suggests that they CREATED Xen, or the creatures there. The floating rocks are doing so on their own... I don't see any mechanical propulsion systems.... or pipes, or wires, or metallic surfaces, or symmetrical structures... or anything that remotely resembles combine architecture. Xen seems very natural to me, and the buildings\machinery there (ie the factory) aren't far enough removed from that to suggest outside influence - the structures on Xen were most likely crafted by the Xen occupants themselves.

To assume otherwise, and change the core design of the location as a result, is basically just taking the story and design of Half-Life into your own hands, without any consideration for continuity with the series, or the story Valve is still telling. Surely a project like this needs to be approached with a little more delicacy than that. In fact, if I were you guys, I'd be communicating with Valve, and asking for approval of major design decisions like that. Half-Life is, after all, their game.

Edit: I do think that the combine vehicle\enemy\things (strider, dropship etc) may be partially biological, but that doesn't have any relation to Xen, without making huge assumptions about the combine's relation to Xen.

 

[jheaddon]

As previously stated this is TDE's view of Xen, it is indeed an interesting one with which the idea may be played with.

All the design document will be made available for public viewing soon.

 

[dogboy73]

Check out the "Remake Half-Life Textures" thread (over 40 pages of HL1 textures remade for source)

http://mapcore.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=32

some very talented people in that thread, so impressive!

some good stuff for sure. What do people use to create those textures?


Also, What are you doing about sound for your HL Source Mod? Anyone working on anything yet?

 

[jheaddon]

Textures are going to be made through modelling the object itself, rendering it and using that as textures (much better quality).

The sound from the original HL was CD Quality, was also very nicely incorporated so will most likely use the same sounds effects and music, will take a look at HL2 sounds too.

Voice actors are the only sound files needed really, but that won't be till much later

 

[Logic]

Textures are going to be made through modelling the object itself, rendering it and using that as textures (much better quality).

The sound from the original HL was CD Quality, was also very nicely incorporated so will most likely use the same sounds effects and music, will take a look at HL2 sounds too.

Voice actors are the only sound files needed really, but that won't be till much later

Well, music was CD quality, but a lot of the sounds are lower quality than they could be. Voice acting will be the majority of sound work needed though.

 

[jheaddon]

What he said

Till proper voice audio is needed will just use my own recordings or someone else with a fairly nice voice

 

[Logic]

It's almost a shame I'm in Australia.. hehe... I've got quite a decent home studio set up, with a few professional condenser microphones etc, so I could sort out the voice recording no problem... except that there are very few people here with American accents :rolling: .. doh.

 

[Twister]

What about that when you complete all of the missions... A coulple of new missions sow up... So that it wont be the same as the old hl1 with improovements but also some new cntent...
BTW... Is that site up yet????? I wanna put up some banners and links on my web-site...

 

[TriggerHappy]

I think this mod could certainly be interesting... but it strays far enough from the original Half-Life that I would still be interested in a separate, more literal translation of Half-Life to the new engine. It seems like it would be less work anyway?

However, I think any fanmade work will annoy some people by straying too far and being "unpure." I'd love to see a very accurate remake, but some problems I foresee:

1) More advanced level geometry, props etc would have to be invented to maintain a consistent graphical quality.
2) High quality versions of all of Half-Life's sounds might not be available.
3) Textures would have to be redone... probably with people taking more liberties.
4) Physics could mess up the game (maybe a shortcut would open up or the path forward might be blocked)
5) Better AI could mess up situations (maybe AI characters would roam too far or certain sections might be too difficult)

Maybe Valve will update Half-Life: Source over time? We can always hope...

 

[Zeus]

I think this mod could certainly be interesting... but it strays far enough from the original Half-Life that I would still be interested in a separate, more literal translation of Half-Life to the new engine. It seems like it would be less work anyway?

However, I think any fanmade work will annoy some people by straying too far and being "unpure." I'd love to see a very accurate remake, but some problems I foresee:

1) More advanced level geometry, props etc would have to be invented to maintain a consistent graphical quality.
2) High quality versions of all of Half-Life's sounds might not be available.
3) Textures would have to be redone... probably with people taking more liberties.
4) Physics could mess up the game (maybe a shortcut would open up or the path forward might be blocked)
5) Better AI could mess up situations (maybe AI characters would roam too far or certain sections might be too difficult)

Maybe Valve will update Half-Life: Source over time? We can always hope...

1) That shouldn't be a problem.
2) Diolouge could be redone
3) I'm sure HL2 will have most of the textures needed for this mod
4) Hey, that's what source is all about. Things acting the way they should in real life.
5) They could block the AI from entering certain places until it sees the player.

 

[Darkside55]

I have to say, and I know that you're probably tired of hearing this comment TDE, but those concepts really do look like something out of aliens. Before you dismiss this post as another "ZOMG WTF ALIENS WHAT IS THIS SHIT?!" rant, let me say first off that I think you're an excellent artist and your style really imitates that of Giger's (which I gather is what you're going for since you follow that biomechanical look). However, I think you follow it too faithfully. That gargantua really, really looks like an overgrown alien, right down to the fact that it has no eyes and a shiny headplate to all the bumps and wire-like tendons in its head, to the drool copiously spilling out of its mouth. The landscape has this nightmarish quality to it, and the tentacle...well, I'm not so sure what to think of the tentacle's new mechanical enhancements.

I'm eager to see Half-Life 1 done right in the source engine. I don't mind at all if certain things are expanded to make things better, if things are made to look nicer, more impressive, or make more sense (the layout of the facility, for instance). However, as one of those insane fanboys who's analyzed every little thing about HL--especially its flora and fauna--I think it might be better for this mod to be billed as a re-envisioning of the story, rather than a retelling or a remake of the original Half-Life. The reason being is that by calling the mod a remake leads people to believe that this is going to be Half-Life done almost exactly the same, only with upgrades in textures, models, and maps that fit the original look and feel of Half-Life 1. Obviously, then, if creative liberties are to be taken with the game it can't be called Half-Life 1 in source, because it isn't. There are going to be fans who'll bash this mod for all its changes, big or small, because these changes make it NOT Half-Life.

I'm going to follow this mod, and I'll play it just to see what changes have been made to Xen, but it seems like more of a "loosely inspired by Half-Life" mod rather than a remake of the story. I'm sure in it's own right this mod's gonna be spooky as hell, though. The twisted landscape is nauseating to look at (which is a good thing); really sells the "alien" factor.

Edit: I meant alien as in "otherwordly," not alien as in the movie aliens. Just so you don't get the wrong idea about what I'm saying.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Here is some ideas for the remake of HL

Intro: You get to visit your personal dormatories prior on getting on the train

On the Train: Just before the train passes the apache copter, you encounter some excavation work going on in the unfinished tunnel(where a new facility is being constructed)

Anomalous Materials: Guard has four small screens, each image from four seperate cameras in the facility

Office Complex: At least a new corridor with four new offices in a row, two new toilet facilities. The main kitchen area (the place with four tables) has a serving area.

We've got hostiles- besides the fact there are ventilation shafts, the level seems too linear and some of the props are a bit inconsistent.

On a Rail- better train handling, signal control, more consistent environment (come on, it looked like a scene from the labyrinth). 2 cameras watching the launch of the rocket (one underground and one looking at the rocket as it goes up into space), and a more explosive feel to it.
The hologram of the world is alright except I think it needs to be more round and greenish beams strobing from projectors from all sides of the hologram, beams project the hologram.

Apprehension- More consistent level design

Processing- More consistent level design

Questionable ethics- There seems to be more halls then rooms in the level. Possibly clean rooms (windows, no walls) where you get to see into. The experiments in there were unfinished, but it was obvioud they were doing autopsies on houndeyes, headcrabs, etc. Chemistry lab as well as a high energy weapons lab (prototype manipulator found in there, but you cannot use it) The weapons lab would be found on the top level as well as the original laser facility.

I would give you concept art, but the scanners not working correctly. Anyway heres other ideas.

The game is set in the year 200- (this could mean a year between 2000 to 2009), for this case instead of using the f-18 model, use the f-22 raptor model or the JSF.

Another thing do we wan't to include the osprey heli-plane, or use something else (a BlackHawk or a chinook for paradrops)?

I was thinking of vapour trails chris-crossing the sky, as military movement is apparent in all the chaos (obviously you don't see the aircraft).

I thought that the sounds that the grunts made through the headsets were too low. They could sound more lighter but chaotic,

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Also, Xen never looked biomechanical (Especially the level geomotry; which looks like a bunch of floating ROCKS for crying out loud.. not even the least bit organic); also the various flora and fauna looked organic, even though Valve could have easily have made them look more machine like.

But the towers on the floating rocks kind of reminds me of devolved citadels

 

[The Dark Elf]

I have to say, and I know that you're probably tired of hearing this comment TDE, but those concepts really do look like something out of aliens. Before you dismiss this post as another "ZOMG WTF ALIENS WHAT IS THIS SHIT?!" rant, let me say first off that I think you're an excellent artist and your style really imitates that of Giger's (which I gather is what you're going for since you follow that biomechanical look). However, I think you follow it too faithfully. That gargantua really, really looks like an overgrown alien, right down to the fact that it has no eyes and a shiny headplate to all the bumps and wire-like tendons in its head, to the drool copiously spilling out of its mouth. The landscape has this nightmarish quality to it, and the tentacle...well, I'm not so sure what to think of the tentacle's new mechanical enhancements.

Look at the original Garg.. it had an eye where I've put one on mine, just didn't make mine glow cause its kinda cheesy IMO.

-

Xen interiors, ribbed walls and living pillars and area's.. yeah they were flat, limitation. I bet they wouldn't have been if Valve artists could have added more into it.

Big Momma.. again, same style

That big baby at the end.. again same.

Those aliens with guns as parts of their arms, again same.


You had the biomechanical grown/altered kind, the fauna that just happened to get sucked into it all (bullsquids).

 

[Mess]

I'd love to do some concept art for this! Someone PM me.

Also, I'm pretty sure the facial models for characters are programmed to automatically lip-synch any .wav file, so there's no need for animators in that department.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I'd love to do some concept art for this! Someone PM me.

Also, I'm pretty sure the facial models for characters are programmed to automatically lip-synch any .wav file, so there's no need for animators in that department.

No software can do that properly.. just basic stuff (and then you still need to tell it how it can move, the app doesn't automatically know how to do it).. gonna need animators regardless.

 

[Mess]

Oh right, I thought I once saw the G-man speak japanese or something on an E4 demo. My bad.

 

[jheaddon]

E3 demo and yeh he did, but it isn't totally accurate, rough at best really

 

[The Dark Elf]

Oh right, I thought I once saw the G-man speak japanese or something on an E4 demo. My bad.

You still need to do it yourself.. The software simply cannot know what points to move, how much or what direction. There's no preset "old person talking, young person takling" everyone/thing is different. There's _no_ easy way around it. You need to still work at it and set things up.

 

[NetWarriorDan]

From the HL xen textures.

EDIT: Added this sentence.

 

[dogboy73]

Textures are going to be made through modelling the object itself, rendering it and using that as textures (much better quality).

I'm totally new to all this. Are there any tutorials that exaplain the whole process? I'd like to get into this stuff myself but I'm not really sure of where to start. What software is used?

The sound from the original HL was CD Quality, was also very nicely incorporated so will most likely use the same sounds effects and music, will take a look at HL2 sounds too.

How about using some new music? I was thinking HL would be good with some nice dark & minimal Soundscape type stuff. Also lots more atmospheric noises like Doom3 (Which I happen to think has the best sound of any game ever).

 

[dogboy73]

.......... Actually, Just found this link on the HalfLife2 news pages;

http://www.snarkpit.com/

 

[jheaddon]

Good to hear your interested in the technique dogboy

you got any examples to show what you mean, music wise?

 

[Mannex17]

I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but all of the concept art looks a lot like H.R. Giger's stuff.

 

[Neutrino]

You still need to do it yourself.. The software simply cannot know what points to move, how much or what direction. There's no preset "old person talking, young person takling" everyone/thing is different. There's _no_ easy way around it. You need to still work at it and set things up.

I thought it was suppose to be pretty automatic? Certainly facial expressions require an animator, but from what Valve said it sounded like lip synching would be handled almost entirely be their program.

 

[The Dark Elf]

I thought it was suppose to be pretty automatic? Certainly facial expressions require an animator, but from what Valve said it sounded like lip synching would be handled almost entirely be their program.

If it could do that properly, they wouldn't be giving it away they'd be selling it to the studios for many many thousands of dollars.

You make a face, there is NO way software knows whats supposed to move without you putting in the information first, and even then, lip-synch apps just approximate the movement.. No way on earth can software recognise emotion in a voice to animate the face correctly. Just ain't gonna happen. You need a human eye to get it right, best you'll get for automatic lip-synching, after inputting all the required data, is the mouth wobbling about a bit to how loud the audio is, to do it right, do it by hand or it'll look like HL1 mouth movements and even on the best model, its gonna ruin the effect.

Some things there aren't any shortcuts for.. well apart from motion capture of facial movements.. but I doubt many will be able to afford the equipment to do that properly, can be done on the cheap, but not too well.

 

[Neutrino]

If it could do that properly, they wouldn't be giving it away they'd be selling it to the studios for many many thousands of dollars.

You make a face, there is NO way software knows whats supposed to move without you putting in the information first, and even then, lip-synch apps just approximate the movement.. No way on earth can software recognise emotion in a voice to animate the face correctly. Just ain't gonna happen. You need a human eye to get it right, best you'll get for automatic lip-synching, after inputting all the required data, is the mouth wobbling about a bit to how loud the audio is, to do it right, do it by hand or it'll look like HL1 mouth movements and even on the best model, its gonna ruin the effect.

Some things there aren't any shortcuts for.. well apart from motion capture of facial movements.. but I doubt many will be able to afford the equipment to do that properly, can be done on the cheap, but not too well.

Well, I just meant lip movement and not any other facial animations. But I understand what you're saying, thanks for the explanation.

Edit: So what exactly does Valve's lip synching program do? It seemed from the first videos we saw that it worked quite well for the g-man.