I just saw farenheit 9/11

[Absinthe]

i like how all these people that hate that USA seem to have enough time to think about the evils of America, because of america

The administration of today is not the administration of the 1940's.
The United States has changed as a country since World War 2.

Do not kid yourself into thinking otherwise.

I am grateful and proud of the United States for what it has done in the past. I'm not going to deny that it has done a lot of good. But it's past reputation is not going make me turn a blind eye to its current slip-ups and misdeeds.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I am grateful and proud of the United States for what it has done in the past. I'm not going to deny that it has done a lot of good. But it's past reputation is not going make me turn a blind eye to its current slip-ups and misdeeds.

You still overlook the good that we currently perform, and focus on the bad. When was the last time a topic was created applauding our efforts for the poor of the world? When did someone other than myself and a few others applaud the US on toppling Saddam's regime and that of the Taliban's to give those people the chance for freedom. I understand completely that those were not the main reasons for what we did, but like it or not, it is a side effect. Freedom will take time to blossom in those countries, just as it did in the good ole' USA, but give it time and it shall happen.

 

[Bait]

You still overlook the good that we currently perform, and focus on the bad. When was the last time a topic was created applauding our efforts for the poor of the world? When did someone other than myself and a few others applaud the US on toppling Saddam's regime and that of the Taliban's to give those people the chance for freedom. I understand completely that those were not the main reasons for what we did, but like it or not, it is a side effect. Freedom will take time to blossom in those countries, just as it did in the good ole' USA, but give it time and it shall happen.

What I don't understand is what gives the USA the right to more or less impose its perception of "freedom" upon another soverign country and still maintain the idea that they are upholding a righteous and noble cause.

And on topic, it was clear what was Moore's goal was in making the movie. While it is possible and probably likely that some parts were exaggerated, it is no worse than what the Bush administration could have done. But, I think it is safe to say that his depictions of the state Iraq is in is quite accurate.

 

[seinfeldrules]

What I don't understand is what gives the USA the right to more or less impose its perception of "freedom" upon another soverign country and still maintain the idea that they are upholding a righteous and noble cause.

Sorry, but life under Saddam was nothing close to anybody's idea of freedom.

 

[Absinthe]

You still overlook the good that we currently perform, and focus on the bad. When was the last time a topic was created applauding our efforts for the poor of the world? When did someone other than myself and a few others applaud the US on toppling Saddam's regime and that of the Taliban's to give those people the chance for freedom. I understand completely that those were not the main reasons for what we did, but like it or not, it is a side effect. Freedom will take time to blossom in those countries, just as it did in the good ole' USA, but give it time and it shall happen.

I have read no such topic about our efforts towards to the world's poor. If there was, I'd comment.

But I am not going to praise the USA for bullshitting the country into an unnecessary war, regardless of the outcome, even if the outcome was one of freedom for the people of those countries. Why? Because I don't like the "ends justifies the means" mindset. Afghanistan and Iraq could have turned out far worse than they currently are. I could have been a bit more forgiving if we invaded those countries with up-to-date attack plans and a plan for peace. Sadly, both of those were absent.

 

[Spartan]

You still overlook the good that we currently perform, and focus on the bad. When was the last time a topic was created applauding our efforts for the poor of the world?

Oh, you mean like corporations using child labour and ripping off poor and developing countries?

 

[MadHatter]

Seinfeld, what country are you from?

 

[Tr0n]

Seinfeld, what country are you from?

I hope thats not a joking/sarcastic question... :|

*cough*top right corner*cough*

 

[CptStern]

You still overlook the good that we currently perform, and focus on the bad. When was the last time a topic was created applauding our efforts for the poor of the world? When did someone other than myself and a few others applaud the US on toppling Saddam's regime and that of the Taliban's to give those people the chance for freedom. I understand completely that those were not the main reasons for what we did, but like it or not, it is a side effect. Freedom will take time to blossom in those countries, just as it did in the good ole' USA, but give it time and it shall happen.

come on! freedom will eventually happen in iraq? I dont think so ..the current PM (Iyad Allawi) is a terrorist and a murderer, a saddam in the making ..I'm willing to bet this will not be the last time the US invades Iraq to topple the regime

 

[MadHatter]

I hope thats not a joking/sarcastic question... :|

*cough*top right corner*cough*

He could be from another country and currently live in the states.

Duh, next time think.

 

[seinfeldrules]

come on! freedom will eventually happen in iraq? I dont think so ..the current PM (Iyad Allawi) is a terrorist and a murderer, a saddam in the making ..I'm willing to bet this will not be the last time the US invades Iraq to topple the regime

He was a 'terrorist' in the sense he was trying to topple Saddam. He was almost chopped to death by Saddam's thugs, I'm sure there is nobody more determined to make it work than him.

 

[CptStern]

He was a 'terrorist' in the sense he was trying to topple Saddam. He was almost chopped to death by Saddam's thugs, I'm sure there is nobody more determined to make it work than him.

he personally executed 6 iraqi prisoners by shooting them in the head at point blank range. During the 90's there were terrorist attacks attributed to his group that killed dozens of civilians in movie theaters and school buses. He prefered the car bomb. So how is Allawi any different from the insurgents who blow up civilians with car bombs? oh btw during Allawi' terrorist campaigns he was a payed CIA operative. This is how america brings the iraqi people freedom? by putting in a puppet regime made up of terrorists?

 

[seinfeldrules]

he personally executed 6 iraqi prisoners by shooting them in the head at point blank range. During the 90's there were terrorist attacks attributed to his group that killed dozens of civilians in movie theaters and school buses. He prefered the car bomb. So how is Allawi any different from the insurgents who blow up civilians with car bombs? oh btw during Allawi' terrorist campaigns he was a payed CIA operative

Those are only allegations, not factual proof. It seems organizations like the CIA and MI5 played a larger role in conducting the bombings than he did. Also, I dont blame him for being willing to execute soldiers that were loyal to Saddam. We dont know the situation leading up to the supposed executions.

PS Dont use sites people need to register for.

 

[CptStern]

Those are only allegations, not factual proof. It seems organizations like the CIA and MI5 played a larger role in conducting the bombings than he did. Also, I dont blame him for being willing to execute soldiers that were loyal to Saddam. We dont know the situation leading up to the supposed executions.

he exectued the iraqi prisoners in front of witnesses ...you're not trying to justify cold blooded murder are you? you're being hypocritical

"In December 1990, Allawi announced the Iraqi National Accord (INA). The main sponsors of INA were the British, but they received secret backing from Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United States. The group consisted mainly of former military personnel who had defected from Saddam Hussein's Iraq to instigate a military coup. Allawi was recruited by the CIA in 1992 as a counterpoint to the more well-known CIA asset Ahmed Chalabi, and because of the INA's links in the Ba'athist establishment. According to former CIA officers, Allawi's INA organised terrorist attacks in Iraq between 1992 and 1995, allegedly including the bombing of mosques, a cinema and a school bus that killed school children. This campaign never posed a threat to Saddam Hussein's rule, but was designed to test INA's capability to effect regime change. It is estimated to have caused up to 100 civilian deaths"

source ..there are literally 100's of other sources that say the same thing


btw I dont think you need to register to any of the links provided ..the only ones that I knowingly use that are register only are the Washington post and New York Times (older articles)

 

[seinfeldrules]

"In December 1990, Allawi announced the Iraqi National Accord (INA). The main sponsors of INA were the British, but they received secret backing from Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United States. The group consisted mainly of former military personnel who had defected from Saddam Hussein's Iraq to instigate a military coup. Allawi was recruited by the CIA in 1992 as a counterpoint to the more well-known CIA asset Ahmed Chalabi, and because of the INA's links in the Ba'athist establishment. According to former CIA officers, Allawi's INA organised terrorist attacks in Iraq between 1992 and 1995, allegedly including the bombing of mosques, a cinema and a school bus that killed school children. This campaign never posed a threat to Saddam Hussein's rule, but was designed to test INA's capability to effect regime change. It is estimated to have caused up to 100 civilian deaths"

The bold words at the bottom indicate why I think it was a foreign planned operation.

btw I dont think you need to register to any of the links provided ..the only ones that I knowingly use that are register only are the Washington post and New York Times (older articles)

The one two posts up required it as well.

 

[CptStern]

The bold words at the bottom indicate why I think it was a foreign planned operation.

of course it was foreign, he was on the CIA payroll

it's funny how selective you are ..Saddam "allegedly" had WMD but that was enough for americans to support the invasion and subsequent deaths of over 14,000 iraqis ...all on the word of a murderer ...btw you do know that Allawi was the source behind the false claims that Saddam had traveled to Niger to pick up uranium, or that he possesed WMD, or that saddam was capable of launching missles at the UK in 45 minutes ..every last one has been proven an outright lie ...and you want him to lead the people of iraq into freedom? Mark my words, he is just as bad if not worse than Saddam

 

[seinfeldrules]

of course it was foreign, he was on the CIA payroll

it's funny how selective you are ..Saddam "allegedly" had WMD but that was enough for americans to support the invasion and subsequent deaths of over 14,000 iraqis ...all on the word of a murderer ...btw you do know that Allawi was the source behind the false claims that Saddam had traveled to Niger to pick up uranium, or that he possesed WMD, or that saddam was capable of launching missles at the UK in 45 minutes ..every last one has been proven an outright lie ...and you want him to lead the people of iraq into freedom? Mark my words, he is just as bad if not worse than Saddam

Mark my words that Iraq will one day be a free country. Whether it is under his rule or not, it will happen over the next decade. Pessimists like you will be the only thing that prevents them from acheiving this. If the Iraqi people dont want him to lead the country, they will vote as such.

 

[CptStern]

Mark my words that Iraq will one day be a free country. Whether it is under his rule or not, it will happen over the next decade. Pessimists like you will be the only thing that prevents them from acheiving this. If the Iraqi people dont want him to lead the country, they will vote as such.

I'm sure that's what Reagan said when he introduced the Taliban comparing them to the founding fathers: "They are the moral equal of our Founding Fathers"


"In making mention of freedom fighters, all of us are privileged to have in our midst tonight one of the brave commanders who lead the Afghan freedom fighters-Abdul Haq. Abdul Haq, we are with you .

They are our brothers, these freedom fighters, and we owe them our help. I've spoken recently of the freedom fighters of Nicaragua. You know the truth about them. You know who they re fighting and why. They are the moral equal of our Founding Fathers and the brave men and women of the French Resistance. We cannot turn away from them for the struggle here is not right versus left; it is right versus wrong."

Ronald Reagan, speech to National Conservative Political Action Conference (8th March, 1985)


we all know how that turned out in the end

 

[Bait]

Sorry, but life under Saddam was nothing close to anybody's idea of freedom.

Sorry, but getting public schools and civilian areas shelled isn't close to anybody's idea of freedom either.

To add onto cptstern's post, I find it funny how when the Afghans faught a common enemy of the US, they were freedom fighters. When the US invaded Iraq, insurgents could just as easily be called "radicals" and "terrorists".

 

[Eg.]

thats because they were killing russkies, and that was fine. ut notice how we dealt with them later?

 

[CptStern]

thats because they were killing russkies, and that was fine. ut notice how we dealt with them later?

I guess that made it ok :upstare: ..one day Reagan calls the taliban "the founding fathers" and the next they are evil incarnate

 

[GiaOmerta]

The difference here is... many of these insurgents are foreign. They arent Iraqis. They hold no allegience to any nation for that fact. They're in business for blood, not freedom. They will not rest til the West is reduced to ashes. It's either us or them. Your tombstone or their's.

 

[CptStern]

well maybe if you hadnt invaded iraq under false pretenses this wouldnt have happened. The invasion stirred up a hornets nest that I dont think even the US government foresaw

 

[GiaOmerta]

What's done is done.... there is no changing it. Everyone deserves a chance for freedom. Those who oppress should be punished. These hornets who hinder freedom shall be punished. We shall got stung... but that's the price for freedom.

That hornet nest which has housed terror shall fall.

 

[CptStern]

What's done is done.... there is no changing it. Everyone deserves a chance for freedom. Those who oppress should be punished. These hornets who hinder freedom shall be punished. We shall got stung... but that's the price for freedom.

freedom? the current PM is a terrorist and murderer

That hornet nest which has housed terror shall fall.

you're wrong, much like the mythical hydra for every head you hack off 2 more will grow in it's place

Iraq is and was a dismal failure

 

[GiaOmerta]

freedom? the current PM is a terrorist and murderer

Yes... freedom.

These terrorists and murderer oppose freedom.

I'm not wrong. I have several friend's overseas stationed within Iraq and within the surrounding areas. The media is not a valid source. Their spitting out lies, making my country's defender look bad, sickens me.

As for the hydra-bit.

You take 50 captured terrorists.
Have 49 dig trenches. Cover them in pigblood and shoot them, bury them. Let the 50th one go. Resistance has a 99% chance of disbanning... Why? Do a little research. This method has been used in the past and worked successfully.

 

[CptStern]

Yes... freedom.

These terrorists and murderer oppose freedom.

whose version of freedom? yours? Who are you to decide what is best for others? they dont want you there

I'm not wrong. I have several friend's overseas stationed within Iraq and within the surrounding areas. The media is not a valid source. Their spitting out lies, making my country's defender look bad, sickens me.

lies? so there was no torture of iraqis no outright murdering of soldiers either? they're all a bunch freedom loving boy scouts defending ol' faithful?

I can give you dozens of examples of US "benevolence", if you'd like

As for the hydra-bit.

You take 50 captured terrorists.
Have 49 dig trenches. Cover them in pigblood and shoot them, bury them. Let the 50th one go. Resistance has a 99% chance of disbanning... Why? Do a little research. This method has been used in the past and worked successfully.

that methodology is no better than beheading prisoners to get your point across. BTW I thought you were there to help the people of iraq not murder them

 

[hasan]

I have several friend's overseas stationed within Iraq and within the surrounding areas. The media is not a valid source. Their spitting out lies, making my country's defender look bad, sickens me.

the media isn't even reporting one tenth of the truth aka the ugliness of "your country's defenders".

be offended :naughty:

 

[seinfeldrules]

I can give you dozens of examples of US "benevolence", if you'd like

And you could also give hundreds of examples of true benevolence if you looked hard enough, but you are blinded by pessimism and hatred.

Who are you to decide what is best for others?

Man, you're right. I bet Saddam was such a better fit. I'm sure we all love to have genocidal leaders running our countries! I bet the families of the 400,000+ dead Iraqi victims love him too!

 

[hasan]

Interested in a Combine vs. Resistance MP mod?

How about Resistance vs. Marines :naughty:

 

[seinfeldrules]

How about Resistance vs. Marines

You mean 20 : 1. Nah, nobody would have a good time playing as the resistance.

 

[CptStern]

And you could also give hundreds of examples of true benevolence if you looked hard enough, but you are blinded by pessimism and hatred.

on an individual basis I know there are instances of benevolence but when the entire mission is mired in self-serving objectives and less than ethical practices the benevolence is hard to see

 

[seinfeldrules]

on an individual basis I know there are instances of benevolence but when the entire mission is mired in altruistic goals and less than ethical practices the benevolence is hard to see

Only by those unwilling to open their eyes.

 

[CptStern]

my eyes are open, I see both sides ..as they truely are

seinfeldrules you could stand to learn something from this quote:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials


you fell for it hook line and sinker

 

[GiaOmerta]

that methodology is no better than beheading prisoners to get your point across. BTW I thought you were there to help the people of iraq not murder them

You continue to mistaken the terrorist whom are mostly foreign fighters with the Iraqi civilian population. The method which I described were used in the Philippines. They were affective.

Let's look at this.

Terrorist capture contractor.
Contractor is in Iraq. Risking he's life and at the same time to get a quick buck. Contractor is doing he's job. He isnt hurting anyone. He's a civilian. A noncombant.

Terrorist's torture the noncombant. Terrorist then shortly proceed in with merciless killing. They literally saw the noncombant's head off. That must be one of the most painful deaths one can experience.

Coliation forces capture terrorists.
The same who commited the acts above and below.
What happens now: Held in detention center and questioned.

What should happen: Questioned, held and eveuntally executed.


EXECUTING recently trained Iraqi soldiers is terror.
SHOOTING DOWN missonaries is terror.
BLOWING UP a market square, and killing dozens and injuring hundrens in the process is terror.

TERRORISM cant and will not go unpunished.

 

[hasan]

The only foriegn fighters in Iraq are american soldiers.
The majority of the resistance are Iraqis, There are among them a minority of arabs andmuslims from nighbouring countries to help. but arabs are not foriegn, niether are muslims.
Americans however, ARE foriegn.

Contractor is in Iraq. Risking he's life and at the same time to get a quick buck.

poor guy, making money on the cost of my people's blood.

He isnt hurting anyone. He's a civilian. A noncombant.

military contractor != noncombatant

Terrorist's torture the noncombant.

Why does everybody say they were treated well?
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6389252
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/20/iraq.poland/

guess who turtores who?

edit:

Coliation forces capture terrorists.
The same who commited the acts above and below.
What happens now: Held in detention center and questioned.

What should happen: Questioned, held and eveuntally executed.

Americans arrest mostly ordinary people ... put them in jail without a trial, without even telling them what there charge is .. without anything.
they just throw them there, like dogs.
Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/21/iraq8477.htm

 

[GiaOmerta]

military contractor != noncombatant

Referring to civilian contractors. Whom equal noncombant.

Combat Engineers are properely equipped for combat and would classify as a combant.

"The kidnappers treated me decently," the 54-year-old freed hostage said. "They explained they acted so for religious reasons...

I believe Muslim's have something against killing women. Which is good in my eyes. I'm protective especially of women. BUT this shall not be the savation of them. They have commited barbaric acts which are unforgivable in the courts of man.

 

[hasan]

I believe Muslim's have something against killing women.

I thought you thought muslims opressed women =P

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/15/iraq.hostages.japan/ (two males, one female)

http://www.chinaembassy.org.in/eng/zgbd/t84227.htm (7 chinese .. me thinks all males)

P.S. I edited the previous post ..

 

[GiaOmerta]

Oppressing and killing are two different things.

The release of the Japanese follows the execution of an Italian hostage by his captors in Iraq and reports of the abduction of two other Japanese.

Officials in Rome said on Thursday that Fabrizio Quattrocchi -- a contractor with a private security firm -- had been killed. Quattrocchi's death is the first confirmed killing of a hostage in Iraq.

Wow, look at that, a paisan got killed. What he was a civilian contractor?

The majority of the resistance are Iraqis, There are among them a minority of arabs andmuslims from nighbouring countries to help. but arabs are not foriegn, niether are muslims.

How do you know this?

If they arent Iraqi they are foreign. Religion also doesnt hold a bases for nationality.

This whole glorified image that you people give these terrorist is unreal. They arent freedom fighters. They're terrorists. They're rebels. They're fanantics. They will not rest until the West is gone. That includes Canada... hasan.

 

[hasan]

How do you know this?

Because I am from Iraq.
or .. because no one else says otherwise other than the american military?
or .. because most of the arested people are iraqis?

They arent freedom fighters. They're terrorists. They're rebels. They're fanantics. They will not rest until the West is gone. That includes Canada... hasan.

I support the resistance, and I know their mentality, and I knwo that is not true.

I don't think even that's Al-Qaeda's goal. (althu I can't tell)
I don't think even the most radical ones want that, I came across people with very extreemist mentalities .. I've yet to find a person who thikns the ultimate solution is to totally destroy the entire western countries.