I just saw farenheit 9/11

[MadHatter]

Michael Moore= liar, conman, trickster,propagandist, bullshit artist.

www.moorelies.com

www.moorewatch.com

http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.2189/pub_detail.asp





And another lie

“





Want me to go on?

Or will you agree and admit that Moore is an out and out liar, a con artist and his "film" the worst kind of crap anyone has ever had to watch??

Sad when you idiots dont check your facts.Even sadder when you are taken in by a modern day Leni Riefenstahl.

Concurs... Except the idiot part.

 

[Cole]

Look I really don't care for moore, all I know is that bush will just start another war....
Personally I was watching a late night show(forgot what one) moore was there, a very big supporter for bush(worked on his campaign or something..), and ralph nader. Moore challenged the bush dude to name one thing that was wrong in his movie. The guy failed to do so. All I know is that this guy, was somewhere in one of the gov. deparments and supported bush. Maybe someone else remembers this in better detail than me.

So personally I don't know.

 

[Shad0hawK]

and I see why so much people hates bush

since the fact that looks like he win the 2000 elections cheating,and the comertial stuff whit the saudi until the irak war

and wow some images of the irak where perturbing
like the irak guy that pick up the dead body of a baby and say something like "whats sim this kid has made to be killed?!" or something like that

but the true that was a good documental,it show me things that I didnt know about the current USA situation

another one lets michael moore's editing skills do his thinking for him...

i saw it and could not believe how many people were dumb enough to fall for yet another moore bullshit film ,this one was even worse than "bowling for columbine"

 

[Shad0hawK]

minor compared to the invasion and occupation of an entire country

yes, letting the baath socialist structure that killed hundreds of thousands of iraqi's was the better option... that and the continuation of over a decade of failed diplomacy.

NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!(unless the profits goto europe and the UN of course...)

 

[SunHawk]

since the fact that looks like he win the 2000 elections cheating,and the comertial stuff whit the saudi until the irak war

1.Bullshit.

2.Learn to spell.

3.Grow up.

 

[Javert]

Admit it, the Democrats love it and Republicans hate it (because it makes them look so bad). I love it.
It's because he fights the indifference that has since pervaded the American 90's (Clinton winning with less than 50% of the popular vote??) He FORCES you to take a stance, to agree or disagree with him. He works to inspire, to incite, and to entertain.

People call him a liar. They are wrong because they can not distinguish fact from opinion. That and they can not accept what the general belief is: that Bush screwed up majorly and that no one has yet to walk the Walk of Shame. The Republican response is so aggressive and bitter, it's troubling. And sometimes it makes them look worse. (Ask others here at hl2.net about "merc".)

If you haven't seen the movie, don't criticize it. I haven't seen "The Passion of Christ" (entirely), so don't expect me mouthing it off soon either.

If you want to say something about a movie, see it first. You have no excuse.

 

[Absinthe]

yes, letting the baath socialist structure that killed hundreds of thousands of iraqi's was the better option... that and the continuation of over a decade of failed diplomacy.

NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!(unless the profits goto europe and the UN of course...)

I don't think anybody here is going to say that Saddam's rule was a good one, so you can drop that bullshit right now.

 

[SunHawk]

People call him a liar. They are wrong because they can not distinguish fact from opinion

Moore is a liar.

Its been proven.

Above, I have provided links to prove every word I have said.

Moore is a liar.

FACT.

Get over it.

That and they can not accept what the general belief is: that Bush screwed up majorly and that no one has yet to walk the Walk of Shame.

Kerry and Edwards get to do that...oh wait, yes that's right, the old meme is starting again "stolen election"..tell me do you have any idea how sick and tired we are of the continued whining?

George W Bush is the duly ELECTED President of the United States of America, will be the President until his term is over, all your whining and whingeing and "protests" and "Moore talking points" will get you NOTHING because he IS the President, will CONTINUE to be the President, and there is sweet FA you can do about it.

Give it, and us, a rest.

The Republican response is so aggressive and bitter, it's troubling. And sometimes it makes them look worse. (Ask others here at hl2.net about "merc".)

Aggressive and bitter?? Jeez, kiddo, go take a look at the Democratic Underground forums some time, that lot need serious psychotropic medication...the Dems have continued whining and beefing because they lost the election

Face it..admit it, come on, whiner, let's hear it.

Would the Republicans be kicking this much of a stink about it if they had lost?

No.

And oh by the way, as for the "close relationship with the Saudis", tell me, which past President of the USA (a Democrat) has just received a large donation to his "presidential library" from a certain Middle East country?

Which President was it that left office as a known sex offendor?

Which recent President left office and was impeached for lying to Congress?? Which President has the reputation of being the head of one of the most corrupt administrations since Trickie Dickie Nixon??

What's that???.... I can't hear you.............

OH YES THATS RIGHT..how could I forget...

Wasn't his name...ahhh yess Bill Clinton. Moore never ever mentioned any of what Clinton did...funny that, you'd think that he'd make great film material.

But no..that's not possible..Michael Moore, biased...no, surely you jest..no, he's honest you say? Truthful?

Lemme see here,Moore also accused the President of draft dodging by getting into the National Guard. He is also a supporter of Clinton.

Hmmmm

Clinton completes his first term at Oxford in December, 1969, and is ordered to report for a physical in January, which he did.

In April 1969, Bill was ordered to report for induction. However, delays in International mail delivery resulted in Clinton receiving his orders after the induction date had passed. By this time, he had begun his second term at Oxford. Regulations allowed him to complete the term, but he must report for induction by July 28, 1969.

Once again utilizing extensive political connections, Clinton gets accepted into the University of Arkansas ROTC program on July 17, nullifying his draft notice. Clinton would not have to enroll until he completed basic training the following year.

And this

It is extremely disappointing that many Democrats, government officials, and members of the legal profession were not outraged by President Clinton's clear perjury in the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit.

Apparently, they either fail to understand or else don't care that his contemptible example can cause severe damage to the justice system and society at large.

The problem of perjury is already very serious in the legal field. Former prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, who prosecuted the Charles Manson case, says perjury in criminal trials is so common as to be routine. He also states experienced prosecutors are not surprised by perjury and expect to encounter it.

Because perjury is such a serious crime - particularly when committed by a high government official - Clinton should have resigned from office or Congress should have removed him.

Tsk tsk tsk..I keep saying it and you keep falling flat on your faces, kiddies, check your facts or the truth will come back and bite you.

 

[SunHawk]

Can anyone tell me why didn't Moore make a film about that?

(sound of crickets chirping)

Thought so.

 

[CptStern]

refute these facts or leave your partisan diatribe at the door, we're not all americans we dont give a shit which party is responsible for what

here's an example of your biased partisan bullshit you're trying to ram down our throats:

"Lemme see here,Moore also accused the President of draft dodging by getting into the National Guard. He is also a supporter of Clinton."

sidestepping and outright avoidance of the issues: who cares wtf clinton did. Moore was accusing BUSH! not clinton. You dont answer the charge you atempt to steer the discussion away from bush thus avoiding any responsibility

 

[.ñµkËz]

basically proved what I knew, Bush is an evil facist bastard who should be assassinated.

 

[Javert]

Red Vs. Blue: Real Life Vs. Internet.
Politics: Internet.

No, Moore is not objective, and yes he's very opinionated.
This topic is not about Clinton (I brought him up merely for context). Yes, he had problems. No, Moore personally didn't care.
The 'Walk of Shame' was aimed at the debacle of the Iraq War, not of the election.
Your use of caps, italics, "kiddo", "whiner", "kiddies" etc. doesn't hold you in the highest regard in my terms.
I'd rather discuss politics with the likes of 'rico' and 'gh0st'.

The role of the artist is not to perceive and relate the absolutism of fact and truth, since none exists. There will always be a dichotomy for history. The artist rather transcends his own fact and truth. If you don't agree with it, transcend your own.

 

[Spartan]

Tsk tsk tsk..I keep saying it and you keep falling flat on your faces, kiddies, check your facts or the truth will come back and bite you.

Is it honestly that difficult to comprehend that anything you say will always be countered by someone else, using facts or supposed facts? I believe in Moore because I have a feeling that I should. And that's it.

 

[SunHawk]

sidestepping and outright avoidance of the issues: who cares wtf clinton did. Moore was accusing BUSH! not clinton. You dont answer the charge you atempt to steer the discussion away from bush thus avoiding any responsibility

Ah,hypocrisy at its best.

Moore was accusing BUSH! not clinton

Thank you.My point has been proven.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

he has sources to back it up, refute them

CptStern, you can only refute Hawks claims with Michael Moore's beliefs. But, can you refute it with your own opinion?

You dont answer the charge you atempt to steer the discussion away from bush thus avoiding any responsibility

Huh? This does'nt make any sense at all.

I'll try to make something better of it:

You have not answered the charges. You've attempted to steer the discussion away from Bush, thus avoiding any personal responsibility.

There. Better.

But see Stern, when people ask you to refute Hawks sources, you just point to Michael Moore -- who was the man being refuted by Hawks sources. Either your rubbing in Moore's defeat, or your trying to tell us without saying it, you have no other sources besides Moore.

Oh, your avoiding too. Infact, lead us by example -- refute this claim; "Moore became angry when the bank clerk refused to give him a weapon, based on the grounds he had no previous account there to receive a weapon -- let alone, a permit."

 

[Absinthe]

But see Stern, when people ask you to refute Hawks sources, you just point to Michael Moore -- who was the man being refuted by Hawks sources. Either your rubbing in Moore's defeat, or your trying to tell us without saying it, you have no other sources besides Moore.

Wrong. Stern did not point to Moore, but to Moore's factual backup. There's a difference.

 

[Spartan]

Wrong. Stern did not point to Moore, but to Moore's factual backup. There's a difference.

Out of morbid curiosity: what's your signature all about?

 

[Phisionary]

check your facts or the truth will come back and bite you.

Hahaha. Hey, that's kinda like, ya know, what the Dubya administration didn't do - ha ha... ha?

Fahrenheit 911 was an entertaining and informative flick. I wouldn't call it an accurate documentary, but even Moore called it propaganda.

As for accusations of lies... well maybe. some insinuations were made certaintly, suggestions... but hell we know Bush and Co. lies about many things as well.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Hahaha. Hey, that's kinda like, ya know, why the Kerry people [blost[/b] too - ha ha... ha?

I just saw the movie today -- very entertaining.
However, absinthe had a point.

CptStern, do you have any sources besides Michael Moore -- and what sources for the movie, would these be?

 

[CptStern]

Ah,hypocrisy at its best.



Thank you.My point has been proven.

and you proved my point



now that we got that out of the way, do you want a stab at disproving Moore's sources? (thx, Absinthe ..why do some people have such a hard time understanding? while others see it clear as the light of day) And none of the bullshit you call "sources" I want many sources directly disproving Moore's sources ..if you cant then kindly stfu

 

[seinfeldrules]

Again, he distorts his interviews, cuts clips to make them out of context, and exaggerates beyond belief. The clip in the movie dealing with the congressmen proves that. His FOXNews clip proves the other point (FOXNews called the election for Bush 2 whole seconds ahead of the other stations) and called it first for Gore if I remember.

I did remember correctly. FOX called FLA for Gore even before the polls closed, about 2-3 mins after CBS and NBC made the same call. The other networks pulled this call at 10 PM, FOX stuck with it until 2 AM (that FLA was for Gore).

 

[CptStern]

these are his sources, disprove them

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=18
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=19
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=20
http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=21

on all of these pages are a breakdown of his sources, most with links: disprove them


and for the last time: NEVER EVER USE FOXNEWS AS A SOURCE! I dont recognise them as a "news" source. Unless you can prove beyond a doubt by producing cross referenced sources you'll have to do better than that

here is a cnn article contradicting fox"news"

here is a source back it up

 

[seinfeldrules]

Moore attempted to disprove Mr. Kopel, but he responds to every attempt at the bottom of each point.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Again, Moore doesnt generally out and out lie, he deceives and distorts beyond belief. What is your response for the FLA call? One minor point in the overall movie. If he cant get that straight, what can he?

What are you talking about, cant use FOXNews. You are using results from michaelmoore.com. The response is in the above link.

 

[CptStern]

could you try using someone who isnt a biased gun nut? He has a conflict of interest as cannot be seen as a realiable source ..he's a card carrying gun supporter ..hmmm I wonder if B for Columbine has anything to do with his hate for Moore.

I cant take someone seriously who writes articles with titles such as "Rapists Like Gun Control." or "Selective Disarmament: No Guns for the Poor."...pure fear-mongering

 

[CptStern]

Moore attempted to disprove Mr. Kopel, but he responds to every attempt at the bottom of each point.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Again, Moore doesnt generally out and out lie, he deceives and distorts beyond belief. What is your response for the FLA call? One minor point in the overall movie. If he cant get that straight, what can he?

What are you talking about, cant use FOXNews. You are using results from michaelmoore.com. The response is in the above link.

seinfeldrules, do yourself a favour and read the actual moore link ..it has his sources in plain english

 

[seinfeldrules]

could you try using someone who isnt a biased gun nut? He has a conflict of interest as cannot be seen as a realiable source ..he's a card carrying gun supporter ..hmmm I wonder if B for Columbine has anything to do with his hate for Moore.

I cant take someone seriously who writes articles with titles such as "Rapists Like Gun Control." or "Selective Disarmament: No Guns for the Poor."...pure fear-mongering

Then you arent allowed to cite Michael Moore either. Quit being a hypocrite about what sources a person can and cannot use. You are pretty much saying that everyone who doesnt agree with you is an invalid source. In that case, Moore is an invalid source because I disagree with him.

seinfeldrules, do yourself a favour and read the actual moore link ..it has his sources in plain english

And Kopel provides his sources as well. He also includes Moore's responses to his points. Does Moore do the same and include Kopel's points?

pure fear-mongering

Moore's response to 9/11...

If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who did not vote for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California--these were places that voted against Bush!

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FQP/is_4664_132/ai_111357919

 

[CptStern]

Then you arent allowed to cite Michael Moore either. Quit being a hypocrite about what sources a person can and cannot use.

for the last ****ing time I AM NOT USING MOORE AS A SOURCE!!! I'm pointing to Moore's SOURCES

And Kopel provides his sources as well. He also includes Moore's responses to his points. Does Moore do the same and include Kopel's points?

link me

 

[Javert]

seinfeldrules. Have you seen the movie out of curiosity?

 

[seinfeldrules]

for the last ****ing time I AM NOT USING MOORE AS A SOURCE!!! I'm pointing to Moore's SOURCES

And Kopel provides his sources within the article. Is it that hard to grasp? You must have never even looked at the page. You blast me for not watching F9/11, but you have never looked at the 59 deceits page? Come on now.

He even includes this at the bottom of the page

Critiques of this critique, and/or defenses of Fahrenheit. Anthony Wade. Mr. Graff. Brian Ragle (PDF). Ed on Open Speech. Thread on the Randi Rhodes Show discussion forum. Daily Kos. Defending Fahrenheit 911. Fahrenheit Fact Check.

Does Moore provides links to webpages and articles that disagree with his movie?

seinfeldrules. Have you seen the movie out of curiosity?

Yes, and found it quite boring. He has an annoying and tiring voice. Have you read the 59 Deceits page? Or seen Fahrenhype 9/11/Celsius 4.11? Just out of curiosity.

 

[CptStern]

the article reads lile an opinion piece with a few vague sources to back up nitpicking points while glossing over the bigger issues in a vain attempt to deride Moore's overall argument. Case in point:

"In contrast to the large number of patriots who have argued against particular wars or wartime policies, a much smaller number of Americans have hated America. They have cheered for the fighters who were killing Americans. They have belittled America’s right to protect itself, and they have produced propaganda designed to destroy American morale and to facilitate enemy victory. To advance their anti-American cause, they have sometimes feigned love for the nation they despised.

For example, during the Vietnam War, many sincere patriots--such as George McGovern and Robert Kennedy--opposed the war. But some people actively collaborated with the totalitarian government of Ho Chi Minh, and the totalitarian armies of the Khmer Rouge and the Pathet Lao. These people tried to convince the American public that the soldiers who were killing American troops were fighting in a just cause. They were not; they were fighting for Stalinism and genocide.

Do the many falsehoods and misrepresentations of Fahrenheit 9/11 suggest a film producer who just makes careless mistakes? Or does a man who calls Americans "possibly the dumbest people on the planet" believe that his audience will be too dumb to tell when he is tricking them? Viewers will have to decide for themselves whether the extremist and extremely deceptive Fahrenheit 9/11 is a conscientious work of patriotic dissent, or the cynical propaganda of a man who gives wartime aid to America’s murderous enemies, and who accepts their aid in return."


what does this have to do with critical analysis of the facts?

He even includes this at the bottom of the page


Quote:
Critiques of this critique, and/or defenses of Fahrenheit. Anthony Wade. Mr. Graff. Brian Ragle (PDF). Ed on Open Speech. Thread on the Randi Rhodes Show discussion forum. Daily Kos. Defending Fahrenheit 911. Fahrenheit Fact Check.


Does Moore provides links to webpages and articles that disagree with his movie?

why didnt you post the entire set of sources? doesnt sound too fair and balanced to me:

"Critiques of Moore or F9/11.Ethics ad Public Policy Center, War, Lies, and Videotape: A Viewer's Guide to Fahrenheit 9/11. MooreLies. Moorewatch. Neoperspectives. Fahrenheit Fact. Centigrade 9/11. Moore Exposed. Bowling for Truth. Fahrenheit 411. Watching Michael Moore. Democratic Leadership Council, "Michael Moore's Truth Problem." Democrats United Against Michael Moore. The Unofficial Michael Moore forums. Kelton Rhoads, Propaganda & Fahrenheit 9/11. Joey Tartakovsky."

 

[seinfeldrules]

why didnt you post the entire set of sources? doesnt sound too fair and balanced to me:

"Critiques of Moore or F9/11.Ethics ad Public Policy Center, War, Lies, and Videotape: A Viewer's Guide to Fahrenheit 9/11. MooreLies. Moorewatch. Neoperspectives. Fahrenheit Fact. Centigrade 9/11. Moore Exposed. Bowling for Truth. Fahrenheit 411. Watching Michael Moore. Democratic Leadership Council, "Michael Moore's Truth Problem." Democrats United Against Michael Moore. The Unofficial Michael Moore forums. Kelton Rhoads, Propaganda & Fahrenheit 9/11. Joey Tartakovsky."

I posted the set of critiques against his article. At least he included some, did Moore include any?

what does this have to do with critical analysis of the facts?

hahahahaha that is his opinionated conclusion. You skipped over his entire argument for that? Are you kidding me? You blame me and others for skipping over the juice of the argument? Wow.

 

[CptStern]

I posted the set of critiques against his article. At least he included some, did Moore include any?

what was first the chicken or the egg?

hahahahaha that is his opinionated conclusion. You skipped over his entire argument for that? Are you kidding me? You blame me and others for skipping over the juice of the argument? Wow.

you're avoiding the issue. I read his arguments and I gave you my assesment

 

[seinfeldrules]

what was first the chicken or the egg?

Again, did Moore include any links to articles disputing his claims? You seem to be dodging a very simple question.

you're avoiding the issue. I read his arguments and I gave you my assesment

Well, you need to disprove them. You said to post evidence of Moore's extreme distortions and exaggerations. I did. Your response is that? You say he uses "a few scattered sources". They are throughout his paper where needed, should he post some erroneous CNN link that does nothing to further his claims- just to make you happy? He discredits major portions of Moore's film and you claim he doesnt touch on them. Well if thats the case, I'm glad to see we both agree Moore did exaggerate and distort.

 

[SunHawk]

Viewers will have to decide for themselves whether the extremist and extremely deceptive Fahrenheit 9/11 is a conscientious work of patriotic dissent, or the cynical propaganda of a man who gives wartime aid to America’s murderous enemies, and who accepts their aid in return."

Exactly.

 

[drolo]

and I see why so much people hates bush

since the fact that looks like he win the 2000 elections cheating,and the comertial stuff whit the saudi until the irak war

and wow some images of the irak where perturbing
like the irak guy that pick up the dead body of a baby and say something like "whats sim this kid has made to be killed?!" or something like that

but the true that was a good documental,it show me things that I didnt know about the current USA situation

Well, Farenheit wasn't a real documentary ! It was pseudo documentary propaganda, but it was nessesary, because the neo conservative government propaganda is much stronger and louder, including CNN FOX and all the other newschannels owned by the big 5 media coperations in the US.

Farenheit shows the tip of the iceberg. If you want to see more you have to do some reading. But be careful: don't get into the trap of conspiracy theories. The gap between the truth and a conspiracy theory is very thin and you might be tempted to belive that there is a huge conspiracy going on.

This is not the truth, because everything that is happening in the US and in Europe is based on the biological mechanics of man kind behaviour (greed for power and money, only to mention the most famous two of them).

Is is supported by structures we know from systems like 'The Mafia', which deal with bribing and the production of fear.
And yes, all western governments and the government of Russia have connection to 'organisations' which have a Mafia structure, some based on religeous interests, some based on political, rassistic, nationalistic or simply economical interest.

As you can see from the reactions to the initail postings to this thread, the belive in 'the own Nation' (the own nest) is stronger than the will to see the truth (whatever truth is).

Me as a German, I am used to be blamed for the crimes of my grand gradparents - I got used to it in 40 Years of US occupation. Someone is verbally attacking Germany ? That doesn't matter to me .... German society is, like other societies a heap of shit, a nessesary evil, you need to live (like going to toilet every morning .... this is something I would not miss in my life if it would be possible to get rid of) .

Bush has stolen the election ? Don't worry, this happens in all countries with a political establishment .... sometimes very drastical like in the US, sometimes more subtile, like in many other countries.

That's the walk of Life ... and it's up to the young generations to change this.

 

[drolo]

Want sources .... here are some of them:

Linkpage in German, further reading mainly in English.
http://www.broeckers.com/9_11_Links.htm

Very interestion (not mentioned by Moore):
Atta's american girlfriend
http://www.madcowprod.com/

Detailed sources ? For those who can read German:
http://www.medienanalyse-international.de/

Read carefully ! Partial conspiracy theories :
http://www.911truthla.us/

Want to get a taste of the 'master plan' ?

http://newamericancentury.org/

be careful ! Not all sources are thrustful ! Some are even fakes !
But the picture gets clear, while getting more and more confused.

 

[CptStern]

Viewers will have to decide for themselves whether the extremist and extremely deceptive Fahrenheit 9/11 is a conscientious work of patriotic dissent, or the cynical propaganda of a man who gives wartime aid to America’s murderous enemies, and who accepts their aid in return."



Exactly.

you wouldnt know a biased argument if it bit you in the ass

 

[seinfeldrules]

Me as a German, I am used to be blamed for the crimes of my grand gradparents - I got used to it in 40 Years of US occupation.

You werent complaining when we were protecting you from the USSR and dropping supplies into Berlin. Now we are occupiers?

neo conservative government propaganda is much stronger and louder, including CNN FOX and all the other newschannels owned by the big 5 media coperations in the US.

Such a paranoid and uninformed response.

 

[Shad0hawK]

you wouldnt know a biased argument if it bit you in the ass

any opinion is "biased". otherwise it would not be an opinion...

 

[Eg.]

You werent complaining when we were protecting you from the USSR and dropping supplies into Berlin. Now we are occupiers?


Such a paranoid and uninformed response.

nore does he mention the fact that germany was trying to surrender to the USA wholeheartedly, instead of the USSR. another great little thing was that when stalin told the troops to got to berlin, there were 200,000 suicides by young girls, beacuse they were raped by russian troops.

yes, i think russia is the better of the 2 nations. along with the gulags that eatern germany had for vacation resorts.

i like how all these people that hate that USA seem to have enough time to think about the evils of America, because of america