LOST: Destiny Found

Well at least that's the last Kate centric we'll ever have to sit through! Hopefully.
 
There's definitely something intrusive and obnoxious about the character of Kate that makes her episodes so mediocre. I didn't mind last night, actually- it's certainly one of the better (scoff) Kate centric episodes.

I like the pace of this season, to be sure. Season 4 started to pick up the pace in a way that I was kind of at ease with, but Season 5 moved at a pace that was just far too fast; they were completely unable to give the time travel arc the justice it deserved by moving from plot point to plot point without even a semblance of depth at times. Many great opportunities were missed with that season. Fortunately, Season 6 is a lot more at east with itself and I think the storytelling is superior better because of it.
 
a pretty mediocre episode, i thought, broken up by a few short interesting parts -

poison, danielle/claire, ethan as the doctor...

not bad, not great.
 
You guys think "The Others" always want newcomers to the island to be killed because they fear of them becoming infected and infiltrating the Temple?
 
I thought last night's episode was good. It was not anything particularly compelling, but it was not exactly sub-standard either. It was, as Samon rightly pointed out, mediocre.

But what does one expect when delving into Kate centric episodes? I was never really expecting much at all anyway from tonight's episode, knowing the centricity of it in advance.

Having said that, there were several powerful moments in the episode; namely, Jack and Sayid's conversation, and the exchange between Sawyer and Kate at the dock. Truly, they were very well-written, and very well acted. I am surprised how much I have grown to appreciate Sawyer and it is so interesting, from what we saw of him on 815 in 'LA X', being juxtaposed with his alt-reality persona. I am looking forward to his centric episode in the coming weeks.

But, as I said, the episode wasn't particularly compelling as a whole, and I believe much of last night's episode was needlessly stretched out. The Temple plot is incredibly intriguing, but it suffered somewhat from being drawn out too long.

Kate's alt-reality plot wasn't written badly per se; it was merely uninteresting and devoid of concrete direction. Not to mention, of course, that we got so much screen time with Kate!

She isn't a terrible character, exactly, but I just cannot empathize with her circumstances and her motives; the only time I ever felt any connection to her was when she let go of Aaron - one of the few truly selfless acts she has committed in the series. She's simply so obnoxious and self-centered, and I would argue she is perhaps the only character in the series who has not progressed from where she started in Season 1; I simply cannot detect any discernible difference between her two persona's in both realities.

I am beginning to wander whether her reasons for returning to the Island are true at all - she says she returned to find Claire, but I am no longer sure of this. On the contrary, she seems selfishly adamant about re-establishing a relationship of sorts with Sawyer. Certainly, her decent into tears at the dock after Sawyer makes it clear how much he was committed to and in love with Juliet all but solidifies this.

I hope she dies, to be honest. She's just complicating the other survivors' lives. She is the Black Sheep.

With all that said, it's damn good to see the series adopt a slower pace, and place a greater emphasis on character - even if this one was centered around Kate.

I am happy to see Claire back; for the first time, really, I am thoroughly interested in seeing her story play out in both realities.

Looking forward to the episodes ahead:

We have a confirmed Locke centric next week, followed by Jack, Sayid, Ben, Sawyer, Richard, Sun/Jin, Desmond, and Hurley. All of whom are far more compelling than Kate.
 
hool10 said:
You guys think "The Others" always want newcomers to the island to be killed because they fear of them becoming infected and infiltrating the Temple?
Click to expand...

If that was the case, the Temple Others could have just gunned them all down, instead of insisting that they stay there where it was "safe". I think it's also worth noticing that the Temple Others aren't natives of the island. I suspect their leader may have been there as long as Richard, but they were all newcomers at some point.
 
"Today's big revelation is...wait for it....wait for it....waaaaait for eeeeet.....THERE'S POISON IN THE PILL!"

The more i watch this show the more it pisses me off. ****! I mean, seriously. How about releasing a piece of information that we have been longing for for years instead of giving us these useless tidbits that we figured out several seasons ago. Claire is Jack's sister. No shit!? Ugh. The soap opera vibe ain't helping either.
 
TwwIX said:
"Today's big revelation is...wait for it....wait for it....waaaaait for eeeeet.....THERE'S POISON IN THE PILL!"

The more i watch this show the more it pisses me off. ****! I mean, seriously. How about releasing a piece of information that we have been longing for for years instead of giving us these useless tidbits that we figured out several seasons ago. Claire is Jack's sister. No shit!? Ugh. The soap opera vibe ain't helping either.
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I don't disagree that the suspense did little but draw out the episode needlessly, but I think you are over-exaggerating.

Just wait. There are 15 episodes to go. How stupid it would be for the likes of Lindelof and Cuse to start dishing out as many answers as possible as soon as the season starts.

Season 5 suffered as a result.
 
brad92 said:
Just wait. There are 15 episodes to go. How stupid it would be for the likes of Lindelof and Cuse to start dishing out as many answers as possible as soon as the season starts.

Season 5 suffered as a result.
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Care to elaborate on that?
 
Yorick said:
Care to elaborate on that?
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Of course.

I am inclined to think that Season 5 was simply much too fast - a majority of it felt as if the writers were trying to cover as much narrative ground as possible, and save from a few episodes here and there, the focus on character dwindled substantially. I enjoyed it immensely - it is, after all, LOST - but after having watched it systematically less than a month ago on DVD, it became clearer to me that they often skimmed over important issues - and events - that should have been explored more thoroughly.

It felt rushed. Sporadic. Disjointed.

We also got two Kate episodes. Tsk tsk. :p

My favorite episodes from the season, if anyone is curious was:

Because You Left
316
The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham
He's Our You
The Variable
Follow the Leader
The Incident
 
brad92 said:
Of course.

I am inclined to think that Season 5 was simply much too fast - a majority of it felt as if the writers were trying to cover as much narrative ground as possible, and save from a few episodes here and there, the focus on character dwindled substantially. I enjoyed it immensely - it is, after all, LOST - but after having watched it systematically less than a month ago on DVD, it became clearer to me that they often skimmed over important issues - and events - that should have been explored more thoroughly.

It felt rushed. Sporadic. Disjointed.

We also got two Kate episodes. Tsk tsk. :p

My favorite episodes from the season, if anyone is curious was:

Because You Left
316
The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham
He's Our You
The Variable
Follow the Leader
The Incident
Click to expand...
didnt like this place is death?
 
In the grand scheme of Lost, The Incident was a pretty rubbish finale. 316 was the best episode of Season 5. I also nominate Jughead as the best time travel episode.
 
Samon said:
In the grand scheme of Lost, The Incident was a pretty rubbish finale. 316 was the best episode of Season 5. I also nominate Jughead as the best time travel episode.
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I do not agree with this.

You spend so much of your time, Samon, asking people to elucidate their arguments, yet you never quite do this yourself:

Samon said:
I certainly enjoyed the finale, and the appearance of Jacob was very welcome. I would argue that it failed to resolve certain issues that could have been dealt with if they weren't going so ludicrously fast with the rest of the season, but other than that, it was very well done.
Click to expand...

You are not very consistent, Samon.

swan_song1973 said:
didnt like this place is death?
Click to expand...

I did like it, yes. It's just not one of my favorites. :)
 
Great episode.
What the fuuck Ben's a teacher, Hurley owns quite a few companies it seems, Rose has cancer again, Locke's girlfriend Helen is back, the Losties are apparently all ****ing candidates for Jacob's position?! ghdjsadgklfh
 
that was a pretty good episode, mainly because it dealt more with island-related stuff, and not kate.
 
Good episode overall.

I don't understand how Ben could have made it off the island, as he was with the Others when the nuke went off. Also, why wasn't Kate among those names?
 
brad92 said:
I do not agree with this.

You spend so much of your time, Samon, asking people to elucidate their arguments, yet you never quite do this yourself.
Click to expand...

I rarely have the time to humour you, but oh, go on, just this once.

There is too much to say about The Incident for me to cover here, but I'll start by hitting on the point that, much like the majority of Season 5 before it, the episode held all the cards. Jack was on a mission to change the future and save all of those lives. It is the ulimate culmination of where his arc has taken him for the entirety of the show. You could believe it. Shooting his way through an alternate universe that didn't at all matter if he succeeded, we could believe that Jack would commit this selfish and potentially devastating act to erase the 5 seasons that preceded it. We were on board, and then something happened that rocked the boat.

"I lost her." Seriously. It wasn't the first time Season 5 had presented us with absurd character motivations, but here we were in a quagmire of stupidity - Juliet, Sawyer and Kate changing their minds, on a whim, to detonate the bomb. "If I never meet you, I never have to lose you." Is this why we're changing the past? These characters had just witnessed a very happy and content Bernard and Rose. Are we meant to believe they would actually go through with this plan after that? It wasn't believable. In fact, it was almost believable as Radzinsky's contrived and laughable antagonism throughout the episode. "Keep drilling!" Not very.

In retrospect, it ruins the episode.

brad92 said:
You are not very consistent, Samon.
Click to expand...

Of course not - so very far from if you find quotes from more than half a year ago. I am a person and I am mutable; my perception changes and so too do my ideas with every additional layer to my scope and experience. Bigger fool you to be otherwise.
 
Damn it Samon, you just made me remember what I hated about that episode when I watched through it, something I was happily forgetful of since it's been a year.

Anyway, with regards to the great episode we have just witnessed:
Whether or not the impact has really hit you yet, that last scene was essentially the core plot of Lost explained for you - of course, Smokey could be lying through his shiny new teeth. With the flashbacks included however I doubt that is the case. A few things of note - as Monkey mentioned Kate isn't on the list, in addition if you ignore the known Jacob visits there are a bunch of people who also likely have the last names on the walls:

Shephard - what should be both Claire and possibly Aaron's last names, as well as the obvious Christian (dead).
Reyes - his parents
Jarrah - Nadia (dead thanks to Jacob no less in old timeline)
Kwon - Ji-Yeon
Locke - in the new parallel time-line, the soon to be Mrs. Locke
Ford - possibly the daughter in Alabama

Almost certainly nothing, though it's probably worth noting that other than Sun the 6/7 candidates are all male, and at least one person of each name listed are female. Again, I really don't think this is too significant given we've now pretty much got the plot spelled out for us.
 
I gotta agree with brad92 Samon. But anyways, let's talk about last nights episode!

  1. The kid that the smoke monster was scared of. At first he had blood on his hands and Richard Alpert could not see. The second time he had no blood and Sawyer could see him. Could this be Aaron making him special? You can't kill them yourself he mentioned as a rule.
  2. The numbers on the ceiling.
  3. Powerful scene with smokey tipping the scales to remove good.
  4. Once a leader and massacred an entire village, Ben is now a history teacher at a high school. Has a funny scene with John who is now a substitute teacher.
  5. John is now getting married to Helen, he chooses to remain wheelchair bound. He also loses his job and has a few funny scenes with the wheel chair lift. We also learn Hurley not only owns Mr. Clucks but John Locke's former box company and a temp agency.
  6. Rose still has terminal cancer and is the manager of the temp agency.
  7. John got a terrible funeral. :(
  8. Illana collects the ash of Jacob.
  9. Never trust evil. Smokey promises answers but will only kill you.
  10. Smokey is stuck in Johns image now. It also appears he takes on the personality or some parts as well. "Nobody can tell me what I can't do" is Johns line as well.

Here is a sneak peek for next weeks episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4XUWzqxX2A
 
We already knew that Hurley owned the box company, they hinted at that last season or the one before it (when he's with his accountant discussing his assets)

This season sucks balls dipped in motor oil. I was absolutely obsessed with this show in the first few seasons and now...this. Last night I found myself wishing the episode would just end, there is nothing exciting anymore. All this new information that I would have killed for a couple years ago I am now passing over with a strong sense of annoyance.

I won't lie and say I'm done watching, I've put too much time into this series, I just hate what they have done with it.
 
I don't think Ben actually killed anyone in the new timeline. The same for Ethan, I think he's just a Doctor. The Island is underwater in the new timeline and I don't think Ben and all the other others have anything in common.
 
Samon said:
I rarely have the time to humour you, but oh, go on, just this once.
Click to expand...

I am so very flattered.

Samon said:
"I lost her." Seriously. It wasn't the first time Season 5 had presented us with absurd character motivations, but here we were in a quagmire of stupidity - Juliet, Sawyer and Kate changing their minds, on a whim, to detonate the bomb. "If I never meet you, I never have to lose you." Is this why we're changing the past? These characters had just witnessed a very happy and content Bernard and Rose. Are we meant to believe they would actually go through with this plan after that? It wasn't believable. In fact, it was almost believable as Radzinsky's contrived and laughable antagonism throughout the episode. "Keep drilling!" Not very.
Click to expand...

I have never doubted that Juliet's motivations for detonating the bomb - especially after she had previously been so intent on preventing Jack from doing so - was near laughable.

But you are forgetting that Jack's true motivation transcends his loss of Kate.

"All the misery that we have been through, everyone we've lost, we can just wipe it clean".

Jack has always attempted to do everything he can to get his people off the Island. That core aspect of his character and the underlying motives for his desire to detonate Jughead - regardless of risk - does not change.

Samon said:
In retrospect, it ruins the episode.
Click to expand...

Oh, how melodramatic.

Samon said:
I am a person and I am mutable; my perception changes and so too do my ideas with every additional layer to my scope and experience.
Click to expand...

Don't be stupid!

If you believe that the motivations of the characters in The Incident was, for lack of a better term, obtuse, then surely you must always have thought so. Why? Because there was never anything for you to uncover about them from the start that could possibly have left you oblivious to their questionable nature. They were revealed explicitly.

You've pulled a wonderful 180:

Samon said:
I certainly enjoyed the finale, and the appearance of Jacob was very welcome. I would argue that it failed to resolve certain issues that could have been dealt with if they weren't going so ludicrously fast with the rest of the season, but other than that, it was very well done.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you just don't do that when the absurdity of, say, Juliet's motives were damn obvious from the very start.
 
180.

Yeah. I remark on that. You made a mistake. But I get grammar nazi'd all the time. So while this might not be a grammatical error, it feels good not being on the receiving end of the shit stick. Suck it.

(If anyone corrects my spelling or grammar I will hunt you down and kill you.)
 
brad92 said:
You've pulled a wonderful 360.
Click to expand...

Chortle. Haven't I just.

brad92 said:
But you are forgetting Jack's true motivation.

"All the misery that we have been through, everyone we've lost, we can just wipe it clean".

Jack has always attempted to do everything he can to get his people off the Island. That core aspect of his character and the underlying motives for his desire to detonate Jughead - regardless of risk - does not change.
Click to expand...

No, I clearly didn't 'forget' what you're calling Jack's 'true motivation'.

Samon said:
There is too much to say about The Incident for me to cover here, but I'll start by hitting on the point that, much like the majority of Season 5 before it, the episode held all the cards. Jack was on a mission to change the future and save all of those lives. It is the ulimate culmination of where his arc has taken him for the entirety of the show. You could believe it. Shooting his way through an alternate universe that didn't at all matter if he succeeded, we could believe that Jack would commit this selfish and potentially devastating act to erase the 5 seasons that preceded it. We were on board, and then something happened that rocked the boat.
Click to expand...

That is what I said and I am having to quote myself in order for you to read it properly. "...the episode held all the cards." "Jack was on a mission to change the future and save all of those lives." Yes, therein is recognition of Jack's motivation to detonate the bomb.

But then something happened to rock the boat. Yeah, I am actually having to repeat myself. Sweet. Something happened. Sawyer probed Jack as to why he truly wanted to detonate the bomb - as to why he was doing what he was doing, after Jack's previous explanation and without reiteration of it. Jack's answer was plain. "I had her. And then I lost her." Ergo, the underlying motivation is actually Jack's desire for Kate, pulling this whole story arc into the love quadrangle. That was the writers' purpose in introducing it. That was a development. I am making the argument that Jack's initial motivation for detonating the bomb was far more convincing and endearing than this unnecessary and derivative development. It is bad storytelling and character development.

brad92 said:
Don't be stupid!

If you believe that the motivations of the characters in The Incident was, for lack of a better term, obtuse, then surely you must always have thought so. Why? Because there was never anything for you to uncover about them from the start. They were revealed explicitly.

You've pulled a wonderful 360.

Samon said:
I certainly enjoyed the finale, and the appearance of Jacob was very welcome. I would argue that it failed to resolve certain issues that could have been dealt with if they weren't going so ludicrously fast with the rest of the season, but other than that, it was very well done.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but you just don't do that when the absurdity of, say, Juliet's motives were damn obvious from the very start.
Click to expand...

That quote does indeed reveal that I enjoyed the finale, as I certainly did when it was released, and it would apparently appear I thought it was very well done to boot. Gasp. It was. For an episode of network television it was very good indeed. I am sure if I watched The Incident now, I would still enjoy it. So, with that addressed, I think you can stop using that quote to support your pompous and obnoxious post. Notice, too, that Juliet is not mentioned and nor did I mention many other elements of the episode within those two sentences. There is nothing conflicting, so what are you trying to prove? Your argument is fallacious. The failure is all yours. I've admitted to my mutability, and I'm quite happy to say that my opinion of the episode has changed over time after reflection and consideration. I have moved considerable places in certain periods of time, providing me with the ability to reflect and reevaluate. If you actually go back and read what I said - appropriating it properly, mind you - I clearly stated the following: "In the grand scheme of Lost" and then went on to say that the episode was a "pretty rubbish finale".

I did enjoy the finale when it aired, and I probably still would -- only now, I'm yet more critical of the poor developments that accompanied the entirety of the episode, as opposed to being merely aware of them. There is phenomenal difference.
 
Locke's funeral was excellent, I just absolutely love Ben as a character, and it's always great to see real emotion from him. The eulogy was short, and incredibly honest. Meanwhile off-island Locke is still a really tragic man. :(

I'm very interested in the changes that are occurring in the alternate timeline. Some of them are big, and others seem small. Like, yes, Locke is still with Helen, and they're getting married, but it's also worth noting that he gets along with his father, and even sometimes sees what a fool he can be. Really interested to see where this goes. I can understand how some people aren't liking the alt so far, because it feels more like a digression with cameos than having any actual importance, but I have faith that it'll turn around before the end.

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "candidacy" thing yet, but I also don't exactly trust Smokey. That said, I also don't think calling him 'evil' and Jacob 'good' is entirely accurate.
 
loved this weeks episode, this show is wrapping up just nicely
 
It was interesting to say the least.
Can't say I really like Claire's new direction all that much though but then again I probably just need to get used to it.
 
It was a really good episode, probably the best of the season. Jacob is really manipulative, although I'm still not sure if he's good or bad. Also, I wonder what Jin's reasons for lying to Claire are, why would he want to get back in the Temple? I thought he was looking for Sun. Also, unfortunately it seems like Emilie de Ravin isn't a strong enough actor to pull off Claire's new personality.

8/10
 
Good episode, but it's no The Substitute. Claire... well, it's a thoughtful direction, but Emilie de Ravin just can't deliver when it's needed. She isn't that good.
 
Yeah, her "tough guy" personality just feels forced and awkward.
 
episode was alright. i thought last weeks was better but i must say i think things are unravelling at a good pace
 
This episode was good, but The Substitute is my favorite so far.
Also that scene where Hurly and Jack were talking about the lighthouse made me LOL:

"Jack: A lighthouse? How come we never saw it before?
Hurly: Maybe because we didn't look for it?"
 
Really enjoyable episode. I am quite astonished by how much my feelings towards Jack have grown; initially, I was indifferent to his character. He has always been exquisitely written, and Matthew Fox is an excellent actor, but I cannot say that throughout the first three seasons I ever felt myself establish a connection with him - he was arrogant, oblivious, and unable to accept the wonders that he witnessed first hand. In conjunction with all of these traits, he was simply much too empirical, I think. I know those to be - or to have been - vital constructs of his identity. I fully appreciate that. His character works so well because he is so flawed and full of unrealized potential - but I personally wasn't able to relate to his extremist values.

But his character has progressed. He has progressed far more than most of the other characters; certainly far more than the likes of Kate, who I believe is relatively stagnant in terms of her progression as a character and, indeed, as a human being living within the labyrinth world that is LOST; in which the whole idea behind these characters was to abolish the shackles of their previous lives (you know, to be 'reborn') and negative personality constructs.

But Jack. How I've grown to care for him. Season 3 and 4 set the foundation of the true path of this character; Season 5 expanded upon it; Season 6 appears to be capitalizing upon it. I think what touched me the most about The Lighthouse was one of the reasons why he returned to the Island in the first place; "I was broken...and I was stupid enough to think this place could fix me". It's interesting, because it has only ever been on the Island where Jack has been happiest. The Island has - indeed, it already did, in effect - fix him. He simply hasn't realized it. Certainly, his ongoing issue that he 'doesn't have what it takes' is compelling, as well.

Drawing upon parallels with The White Rabbit was excellent as well; finding the cave, reflecting upon the coffin of his father.

I have but one small squabble with last night's episode. The connection between the current timeline and alternate reality simply wasn't clear enough. Of course, it was all centered around Jack's issue with 'not having what it takes'. However, I tend to think Lindelof and Cuse presented this connection much too subtly. It may have been difficult for some to have drawn this parallel, which is a shame considering how significant it is. Furthermore, I still get the impression that the writers are merely skimming over certain issues. It isn't anywhere near as bad as Season 5, but it is, on occasion, quite noticeable. In particular, when Margo mentions Claire to Jack after reading Christian's will. There is absolutely no follow-up to this; no elaboration, no further consideration. It is absolutely forgotten.

Anyone else think '108' is Desmond?

Of course it is! :p

So we have a Sayid-centric episode next week, followed by confirmed Ben, Sawyer, Richard, Sun/Jin, Desmond, and Hurley centric episodes. Awesome!
 
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