my teacher told me a conspiracy theory about 9/11

[burner69]

If you want my opinion shadow; the US government DID have warning of it, a warning stark enough to warrent further investigation and counter measures, but didn't. Either through lack of funding, constraints in other areas, or perhaps because they figured they might benefit from it.

When it did happen the safety of the country, and the regard for others, went out the window. Afghanistan was invaded because it had to be, that's where almost all of the terrorists orginated and that was common knowledge. But it seemed to have been done unwillingly. Bush pressed people to find a strong link to Iraq, and when that didn't show up, he only sent a few thousand troops in. No where near enough to be stand a good chance of catching Osama. As soon as the Taliban were overthrown he just left, leaving behind nowhere near enough troops to hold the areas gained, and certainly not enough to be able to stop Al-Quaeda from regrouping. Then came Iraq, quite why he is so keen on attacking confuses me. The oil idea fits perfectly, and explains many of his actions, but I simply refuse to believe that anyone is so evil as to risk thousands of lives over oil.
Back home, dressed as antiterrorism measures Bush is taking full advantage of 9/11 and introducing dream laws for himself, and his administration. I've only read parts, but the parts I've read of this new patriot act are terrifying. Legal, it may soon be possible for the government to tap your phone, put you in court for opposing the government (this may or may not include protesting, voicing different opinions etc), and lock you up without even being able to see the evidence used to charge you - because it's classified. Then, if you're lucky you can be dubbed an illegal alien, and therefore imprisoned for the rest of your life with no chance of a retrial. If you're unlucky you could be executed.

The above is pushing the laws quite a bit - but legally it can POTENTIALLY be done. It worries me when a government give themselves this potential.

Keep terrorists close, keep your government closer

 

[SirWence]

The oil idea fits perfectly, and explains many of his actions, but I simply refuse to believe that anyone is so evil as to risk thousands of lives over oil.

Thousands of lives have been put on risk for much less even pride.. shouldent be surpirseing seeing as Universal Patriotic Defence Service is coming back

 

[seinfeldrules]

i asked 5 people to read what i wrote and they didn't find anything wrong w/ it. so obviously you were talking outta your ass, and jsut trying to piss me off. u obviously must have failed english or something... i mean if you cant read that you must have some disability.

No, we were being serious. Some of the stuff you and wence write is very diffucult to decipher. I dont ask for perfect grammar by any means, but at least make it readable. I shouldnt have to reread it 5 times to barely understand the point you were attempting to make.

 

[Synthos]

I doubt that's what happened. As much as I don't like bush, I know he wouldn't hurt innocent americans in order to gain more power...

Wait....

What about those soldiers dying in Iraq?????

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

I doubt that's what happened. As much as I don't like bush, I know he wouldn't hurt innocent americans in order to gain more power...

Wait....

What about those soldiers dying in Iraq?????

What about them? theyre doing a job they CHOSE to do. And doin a damn good one.

 

[burner69]

What about them? theyre doing a job they CHOSE to do. And doin a damn good one.

Fair play to the soliders, I support THEM very much. As individuals.

Because they're in the middle of a bulls**t war at the moment, that they shouldn't be in.

Saddam should never have been put in power in the first place, then he should never have been armed by the US, THEN when he was committing genocide it should have been exposed by the media - it wasn't because he was our ally :cheers: Then during the Gulf he should have been kicked out. Then after the Gulf, an effort should have been made to kick him out.
Now, we interupt a war on terrorism - intended to protect western people I'm led to believe - to attack Iraq, a country that does not, and did not plan to attack America - ever. They've admitted it, and now blame poor intelligence. OK, so that's fine now?!
Don't get me wrong, Saddam should be removed, but why not do it beforehand, or just not put him in power and arm him in the first place.

And here's something for you Bush recently spent the sum of about $98bn dollars ON TOP of a previous $1.3bn in Columbia, to stop 'drug terrorists' - the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, who's terrorist activities are... blowing holes in the oil pipeline.

He went into Afghanistan to get Osama, the man responsible for 9/11. He got oil there.. but you know, as he was there, may as well.
Then came Iraq, who were going to launch WMDs in 45mins at America; you do realise how daft that statement sounds now don't you? That was the truth a year ago remember. So Iraq is getting under control now... and guess what... oil is being taken. But hey, while they were there, aye?

What about Columbia? Now taxpayers money, is being used to fight terrorists who don't kill people - they blow up oil lines. What if we end up going to war against those evil drug terrorists next? Will they be able to fire WMDs at us in 45mins too?

That is the kind of thing that makes me suspect an oil involvment. But I'm still skeptical that anyone would really be that f**king evil.

Oh, and more oil antics; Ground Cannabis seed can be used as a cheaper, better quality (so I'm told), envirnmentally safe oil subsititute.
With prohibition of Cannabis increasing the number of users, filling up 70% of US jails, and eating away at billions of dollars in police spending a year - and medical studies proving cannabis to be safer than alcohol, as well as having many positive effects - it seems strange that prohibition is still the done thing.

The Oil fits in there again. But... like I say... skeptical.

 

[SirWence]

yep those soliders are doing a damn good job. and i will tell you where saddams weapons are in my uncle and many other soliders vains thanks to people like your fearless leader bush. Gulf war 1 he was asigned to Destroy Wmds and from what hes told me they destroyed quite a bit with his regi. let alone the many many others, but you know what aside from those horrible shots they test on soliders , my uncle has been exposed to those Chemicals and he has never been the same since he came back hes like a shell of his former self, you go fight if you support these mickey mouse bullshit wars get your ass over there and fight and talk tell ME about supporting the troops when i have family members dead and buried and some living as a shell, im tired of this oil wars. Why do you people put up with this crap make a stand for once..

Do you honestly think the leaders of this country care if you live or die? no they dont your simply cannon fodder for there fear wars when will people ever understand they are being toyed with, America firstly isnt a democracy so stop telling me were spreading it when we ourselevs arent it in the first place. Stop being a useful idiot, America is 1 more terrorist attack away from a police state because people are so cowardly they need to be saved.. DEFEND FREEDOM BY TAKEING IT AWAY. People like my uncle and my cousin and many others through out the history America for 'Freedom' and because of peoples weakness it will all be in vain and just because somthing says patriot doesnt mean its right get a brain my lord. i have seen enough death and suffering. and useing DU weapons and most likly* Napalm is no way to win hearts and minds, this BS war on terror which means fear .. You can never defeat fear with bullets its impossible im sorry.. and the idea of terrorism? that will never go away unless you start killing or aressting people for thinking somthing of the sort which wouldent shock me if it happend. Im tired of this crap, as jfk said we live in one world we have to breathe in the same air and we have to live together or we are going to die together.
:flame: :flame: :flame:

 

[colson]

my moms a teacher, every once in a while i read here teacher newletter, which was talking about teachers right to free speech during the election


and if we wnated oil, y didnt we take saudi arabia or Iran, which have more, dumb theorists

You Americans are so nieve. Bush is a crazy bastard that is out to impress his daddy and make himself look like a hero. Have you heard the real story about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? They didn't actually have any just a bunch of like 50 year old piece of shit cases that were obsolite. Bush is definately after Iraq because of there huge oil fields. It's all about money. Governments don't give a flying f**k what people think or say. In the end it's all about the money. If he had a good cover up Bush WOULD take Saudi Arabia's oil or Irans but he doesn't have a good bullshit lie to bail him out and give him backing. So thats why he hasn't taken their oil yet.

 

[Kommie]

You Americans are so nieve. Bush is a crazy bastard that is out to impress his daddy and make himself look like a hero. Have you heard the real story about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? They didn't actually have any just a bunch of like 50 year old piece of shit cases that were obsolite. Bush is definately after Iraq because of there huge oil fields. It's all about money. Governments don't give a flying f**k what people think or say. In the end it's all about the money. If he had a good cover up Bush WOULD take Saudi Arabia's oil or Irans but he doesn't have a good bullshit lie to bail him out and give him backing. So thats why he hasn't taken their oil yet.

You are NAIVE To think this is about oil. Iraq doesnt have "huge oil fields" they have oil fields but to assume that they have "huge" oil fields is a gross exaggeration. Also I would like to point out that we KNOW that there were no WMD's found as it was all over the news. "It's all about money" This little war is costing us quite the "pretty penny" and while it could pay off in the long run (the VERY long run) one can hardly assume that the war is all about money.

 

[seinfeldrules]

once again sein, no one else but you 2 had trouble reading it. so obviously something is wrong w/ your end. like i said i had 5 people come read it and everyone thought it was fine. if you cannot understand what i wrote then i dont know what to say. everyone else can so obviously it's not me.

Probably 5 people who were used to reading your gibberish...

Is it really that hard to capitalize the first letter of a sentence, or spell out the words?

Take this for example

People like my uncle and my cousin and many others through out the history America for 'Freedom' and because of peoples weakness it will all be in vain and just because somthing says patriot doesnt mean its right get a brain my lord.

What in the world is he talking about?

 

[justmatt]

my moms a teacher, every once in a while i read here teacher newletter, which was talking about teachers right to free speech during the election


and if we wnated oil, y didnt we take saudi arabia or Iran, which have more, dumb theorists

We're already allies with Saudi Arabia

 

[SirWence]

Probably 5 people who were used to reading your gibberish...

Is it really that hard to capitalize the first letter of a sentence, or spell out the words?

Take this for example


What in the world is he talking about?

Yes and im still waiting for you to respond to my other post(s) it would be nice, and see it means people in this country are mostly cowards who openly give there rights to be protected. And as for the wmd thing if you dont understand that your just very slow. Sein debate the issue stop attacking the spelling of the poster you have yet to respond to any of my last 2-3 posts yet you go me for my spelling or grammer? wow stop being so brave

 

[justmatt]

Yes, you're right, America is just the rising Third (wait thats used) Fourth Reich. I got a question for ya...

Oh yeah? Is that why our army joined the fight in WW2? So that all the countries we helped would "owe" us forever and ever and do whatever we want just because we helped them? I would hope that we had a lot more at stake than a desire to just show-ff and save the "Frenchies".

 

[burner69]

You are NAIVE To think this is about oil. Iraq doesnt have "huge oil fields" they have oil fields but to assume that they have "huge" oil fields is a gross exaggeration. Also I would like to point out that we KNOW that there were no WMD's found as it was all over the news. "It's all about money" This little war is costing us quite the "pretty penny" and while it could pay off in the long run (the VERY long run) one can hardly assume that the war is all about money.

As I've said, I'm undecided on the matter. But Iraq DOES have large oil supplies:

Iraq is estimated to hold 115 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, and possibly much more undiscovered oil in unexplored areas of the country. Iraq also is estimated to contain at least 110 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. The country is a focal point for regional and international security issues.

According to the Oil and Gas Journal, Iraq contains 115 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, the third largest in the world (behind Saudi Arabia and Canada), concentrated overwhelmingly (80% or so) in southern Iraq.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html#oil

 

[Javert]

Oil wasn't the be-all end-all when it came to Iraq. But yes, it was part of the reason why we are there.
When it comes down to limited resources, it makes for any power to obtain it first. We would never be able to stand having a foreign (especially enemy) power have a grip on limited resources.
It's not "immoral" to fight over oil. It's like fighting over land. However the problem is trying to gloss it over and mask it as a "fight for freedom and democracy" not all that honest.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yes and im still waiting for you to respond to my other post(s) it would be nice, and see it means people in this country are mostly cowards who openly give there rights to be protected. And as for the wmd thing if you dont understand that your just very slow. Sein debate the issue stop attacking the spelling of the poster you have yet to respond to any of my last 2-3 posts yet you go me for my spelling or grammer? wow stop being so brave

Thats because you still have no valid response to my factual link which pointed out why the towers collapsed as they did. I'm not wasting my time on somebody who accuses the US gov't for buying out anyone who uses logic. Furthermore, I can barely understand what you are saying, so how should I respond? Seriously, I am not trying to single you out for grammar, but I cannot understand 2/3 of the stuff you write. I really dont care if you use perfect spelling/grammar, but at least make it understandable. I've already debated on this topic in the past, so its not like I am unwilling to educate you on the facts, but that is made impossible by your writing style.

 

[justmatt]

yep those soliders are doing a damn good job. and i will tell you where saddams weapons are in my uncle and many other soliders vains thanks to people like your fearless leader bush. Gulf war 1 he was asigned to Destroy Wmds and from what hes told me they destroyed quite a bit with his regi. let alone the many many others, but you know what aside from those horrible shots they test on soliders , my uncle has been exposed to those Chemicals and he has never been the same since he came back hes like a shell of his former self, you go fight if you support these mickey mouse bullshit wars get your ass over there and fight and talk tell ME about supporting the troops when i have family members dead and buried and some living as a shell, im tired of this oil wars. Why do you people put up with this crap make a stand for once..

Do you honestly think the leaders of this country care if you live or die? no they dont your simply cannon fodder for there fear wars when will people ever understand they are being toyed with, America firstly isnt a democracy so stop telling me were spreading it when we ourselevs arent it in the first place. Stop being a useful idiot, America is 1 more terrorist attack away from a police state because people are so cowardly they need to be saved.. DEFEND FREEDOM BY TAKEING IT AWAY. People like my uncle and my cousin and many others through out the history America for 'Freedom' and because of peoples weakness it will all be in vain and just because somthing says patriot doesnt mean its right get a brain my lord. i have seen enough death and suffering. and useing DU weapons and most likly* Napalm is no way to win hearts and minds, this BS war on terror which means fear .. You can never defeat fear with bullets its impossible im sorry.. and the idea of terrorism? that will never go away unless you start killing or aressting people for thinking somthing of the sort which wouldent shock me if it happend. Im tired of this crap, as jfk said we live in one world we have to breathe in the same air and we have to live together or we are going to die together.
:flame: :flame: :flame:

gah! PUNCTUATION....punc..tu...a....tion....

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

yep those soliders are doing a damn good job. and i will tell you where saddams weapons are in my uncle and many other soliders vains thanks to people like your fearless leader bush. Gulf war 1 he was asigned to Destroy Wmds and from what hes told me they destroyed quite a bit with his regi. let alone the many many others, but you know what aside from those horrible shots they test on soliders , my uncle has been exposed to those Chemicals and he has never been the same since he came back hes like a shell of his former self, you go fight if you support these mickey mouse bullshit wars get your ass over there and fight and talk tell ME about supporting the troops when i have family members dead and buried and some living as a shell, im tired of this oil wars. Why do you people put up with this crap make a stand for once..

Do you honestly think the leaders of this country care if you live or die? no they dont your simply cannon fodder for there fear wars when will people ever understand they are being toyed with, America firstly isnt a democracy so stop telling me were spreading it when we ourselevs arent it in the first place. Stop being a useful idiot, America is 1 more terrorist attack away from a police state because people are so cowardly they need to be saved.. DEFEND FREEDOM BY TAKEING IT AWAY. People like my uncle and my cousin and many others through out the history America for 'Freedom' and because of peoples weakness it will all be in vain and just because somthing says patriot doesnt mean its right get a brain my lord. i have seen enough death and suffering. and useing DU weapons and most likly* Napalm is no way to win hearts and minds, this BS war on terror which means fear .. You can never defeat fear with bullets its impossible im sorry.. and the idea of terrorism? that will never go away unless you start killing or aressting people for thinking somthing of the sort which wouldent shock me if it happend. Im tired of this crap, as jfk said we live in one world we have to breathe in the same air and we have to live together or we are going to die together.
:flame: :flame: :flame:

First of all the first gulf war was not about ridding saddam of WMD.. we went over there to remove his sorry little ass from Kuwait. As a result of his defeat.. let me emphasize DEFEAT.. a set of rules were drawn up to be popularly known as the cease fire agreement, which saddam agreed to or else gulf war 2 probably wouldnt have happend. Unfortunately, Saddam didnt abide by the agreement.. he continued his weapons development, he shot at our planes patroling the no fly zone, he continued to try and acquire weapons from france russia and china.. nevermind WMD, thats one of many reasons we went over there and yanked him out of power.. for 12 years we were patient with this guy.. 12 years is a long damn time to get away with alot of shit. I dont care if we went to war simply because he was shooting at our planes.. that is an act of war and blatant disregard for the agreement in which you signed.

What horrible shots are you talkin about? Ive been in the military for over 3 years now and i have yet to have recieved any "horrible" shots.. (except that penicillin shot OWWW!) If youre talking about anthrax and small pox then yeah.. maybe they are a little harsh, but they use that just like a flu shot.. they give you a little bit of the strand so your body can tag it and become immune to it over time.. shots like that have side effects but theyre not nearly as dire as people claim them to be, unless someone just has an outright alergic reaction to it.

The chemical he probably was exposed to was nothing administered through a shot.. it was depleted uranium, which is found in armor of Abrams and armor piercing rounds such as the 30mm rounds of an A-10 Thunderbolt. The effects of this chemical were unknown before hand.

I dunno bout you but I've done my part.. I enlisted in the military and I knew damn well what i was getting myself into, as did everyone else that joined.. we do the what our job is required for us to do and, why beat around the bush? Our job is to fight and win wars.. that is first and foremost. You think we dont know that if we were to go to war that there is always a chance we wont make it back? If you dont believe that and youre in the military then you need to be in something else. No one twists your hand at the recruiting office and makes you join.. thats you decision, thats your signature. Yeah it sux when people die in war.. but how can you support the troops when you keep sayin "bring our troops home".. whats that saying to us out here? It says to me you guys dont have an ounce of faith in what we do and are ignorant to the fact that its our job to protect the country.

So you think our reasoning to go to war was wrong.. But you dont weigh the costs of action vs inaction.. i mean serious thinking.. there are no garauntees that if we dont go to war that saddam would become a better man than what he was.. and his history proves he was not trustworthy and that he continued to decieve and decieve and decieve.. this a fact! If we cant trust him to uphold a simple ceasefire agreement by firing at our planes weekly, what makes you think hes gonna prove faithful in ridding his arsenal of WMD?? you cant.. and until there was without-a-doubt proof that we could trust this guy, as far as we knew, and based on intelligence, faulty or not, he had them, hes had them before, its stupid to think he wouldnt produce them again. Pre-emptive strikes are a very valid strategy, but like I said, you have to weigh the costs of action vs inaction.. this does not include assumptions that he will or will not do something, thinking about the costs must be based off of fact and considering Saddam's history, this was a risk worth taking. Its either A:Action = Potential for a few thousand military casualties or B)Inaction = Potential for Millions of civilian casualties.. i think A is alot less costly than B. With this in mind you must also weigh the costs vs rewards.. Money is not much of an issue since we were using just as much for containing his ass for 12 years vs going in and taking him out so we dont have to keep forking out all this money while he continues his lies and deceit. Casualties are an issue, but either way you look at it we would lose some regardless, Our position in the middle east is a big reward a very strategic award. Saddam being removed is a reward, fighting terrorists abroad is more strategic than fighting them on our own soil.. I'd rather car bombs go off everyday in Iraq than here. The harder we fight to keep these terrorists on the run the harder it is for them to execute another plot like 9/11. What rewards would there be if we took no action? I cant think of any, can you? probably not.. and even if you could it still wouldnt be enough to top action. You people need to start thinking about the war objectively, you dont do that and thats why you think this war is so bad.. you have no strategic inclination whatsoever.

and just a side not: I dunno where the hell you all been hearing weve been dropping Napalm in Iraq but thats a big ass lie.. working with munitions I can tell you first hand that we dont have that shit anymore.

And to your response about taking freedom away.. in order to fight terrorism this may be necessary to a degree. I mean, ive heard several times that you either sacrifice freedom for security or security for freedom.. cant have it both ways. As for me, i say do what you gotta do.. Id rather live without a few freedoms than die and not have any at all.. but thats all up to you.









*huff* *puff*.. thats alot of typing

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

You Americans are so nieve. Bush is a crazy bastard that is out to impress his daddy and make himself look like a hero. Have you heard the real story about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? They didn't actually have any just a bunch of like 50 year old piece of shit cases that were obsolite. Bush is definately after Iraq because of there huge oil fields. It's all about money. Governments don't give a flying f**k what people think or say. In the end it's all about the money. If he had a good cover up Bush WOULD take Saudi Arabia's oil or Irans but he doesn't have a good bullshit lie to bail him out and give him backing. So thats why he hasn't taken their oil yet.

DO you think Saddam is stupid enough to leave these things lying around for us to find after hes said time and time again that he hasnt had them.. we knew he was lying before so what makes you think hadnt lied again? Thats not a chance worth taking.. thats foolishness.

If your parents caught you with drugs, they knew you had used them and punished you for it before and yet you continued to use it, while your parents are evident in the fact that your using them again.. whether the evidence is actually credible or not doesnt really matter.. what matters is that, if your parents went into your room suspecting possession of drugs after youve continually denied possessing them after being caught before, do you honestly think you wouldnt try your hardest to hide them? or get rid of them by having your friends hold it for you so that you dont get caught so it makes your parents look like Jackasses instead? I think this is precisely what Saddam was tryin to do.. make us look like a bunch of fools in the eyes of our friends..

Just because we didnt find any does NOT, I repeat!, does not mean he never had them in the first place.. THAT my friend is naive.. we, on the other hand, are not.. thank you and goodnite!

 

[Exclamatio]

guys remember you only learn what they teach you

make sense?

think about it this way

you only learn what they want to teach you

still follow?

you only learn what they want you too

 

[SirWence]

First of all the first gulf war was not about ridding saddam of WMD.. we went over there to remove his sorry little ass from Kuwait. As a result of his defeat.. let me emphasize DEFEAT.. a set of rules were drawn up to be popularly known as the cease fire agreement, which saddam agreed to or else gulf war 2 probably wouldnt have happend. Unfortunately, Saddam didnt abide by the agreement.. he continued his weapons development, he shot at our planes patroling the no fly zone, he continued to try and acquire weapons from france russia and china.. nevermind WMD, thats one of many reasons we went over there and yanked him out of power.. for 12 years we were patient with this guy.. 12 years is a long damn time to get away with alot of shit. I dont care if we went to war simply because he was shooting at our planes.. that is an act of war and blatant disregard for the agreement in which you signed.

What horrible shots are you talkin about? Ive been in the military for over 3 years now and i have yet to have recieved any "horrible" shots.. (except that penicillin shot OWWW!) If youre talking about anthrax and small pox then yeah.. maybe they are a little harsh, but they use that just like a flu shot.. they give you a little bit of the strand so your body can tag it and become immune to it over time.. shots like that have side effects but theyre not nearly as dire as people claim them to be, unless someone just has an outright alergic reaction to it.

The chemical he probably was exposed to was nothing administered through a shot.. it was depleted uranium, which is found in armor of Abrams and armor piercing rounds such as the 30mm rounds of an A-10 Thunderbolt. The effects of this chemical were unknown before hand.

I dunno bout you but I've done my part.. I enlisted in the military and I knew damn well what i was getting myself into, as did everyone else that joined.. we do the what our job is required for us to do and, why beat around the bush? Our job is to fight and win wars.. that is first and foremost. You think we dont know that if we were to go to war that there is always a chance we wont make it back? If you dont believe that and youre in the military then you need to be in something else. No one twists your hand at the recruiting office and makes you join.. thats you decision, thats your signature. Yeah it sux when people die in war.. but how can you support the troops when you keep sayin "bring our troops home".. whats that saying to us out here? It says to me you guys dont have an ounce of faith in what we do and are ignorant to the fact that its our job to protect the country.

So you think our reasoning to go to war was wrong.. But you dont weigh the costs of action vs inaction.. i mean serious thinking.. there are no garauntees that if we dont go to war that saddam would become a better man than what he was.. and his history proves he was not trustworthy and that he continued to decieve and decieve and decieve.. this a fact! If we cant trust him to uphold a simple ceasefire agreement by firing at our planes weekly, what makes you think hes gonna prove faithful in ridding his arsenal of WMD?? you cant.. and until there was without-a-doubt proof that we could trust this guy, as far as we knew, and based on intelligence, faulty or not, he had them, hes had them before, its stupid to think he wouldnt produce them again. Pre-emptive strikes are a very valid strategy, but like I said, you have to weigh the costs of action vs inaction.. this does not include assumptions that he will or will not do something, thinking about the costs must be based off of fact and considering Saddam's history, this was a risk worth taking. Its either A:Action = Potential for a few thousand military casualties or B)Inaction = Potential for Millions of civilian casualties.. i think A is alot less costly than B. With this in mind you must also weigh the costs vs rewards.. Money is not much of an issue since we were using just as much for containing his ass for 12 years vs going in and taking him out so we dont have to keep forking out all this money while he continues his lies and deceit. Casualties are an issue, but either way you look at it we would lose some regardless, Our position in the middle east is a big reward a very strategic award. Saddam being removed is a reward, fighting terrorists abroad is more strategic than fighting them on our own soil.. I'd rather car bombs go off everyday in Iraq than here. The harder we fight to keep these terrorists on the run the harder it is for them to execute another plot like 9/11. What rewards would there be if we took no action? I cant think of any, can you? probably not.. and even if you could it still wouldnt be enough to top action. You people need to start thinking about the war objectively, you dont do that and thats why you think this war is so bad.. you have no strategic inclination whatsoever.

and just a side not: I dunno where the hell you all been hearing weve been dropping Napalm in Iraq but thats a big ass lie.. working with munitions I can tell you first hand that we dont have that shit anymore.

And to your response about taking freedom away.. in order to fight terrorism this may be necessary to a degree. I mean, ive heard several times that you either sacrifice freedom for security or security for freedom.. cant have it both ways. As for me, i say do what you gotta do.. Id rather live without a few freedoms than die and not have any at all.. but thats all up to you.









*huff* *puff*.. thats alot of typing

Wow for someone of the military your pathetic. You can be 'secure' if you want as my sig says i would rather die free in any type of attack then live 'secure' like a slave. And we took saddam done for his strength not to free kuwait from his evil grasp. infact most people of kuwait dident care that he was there because kutwait was never free to begin with. Oil Oil Oil. I dare say the age of the free America is over and the age of the secure America has begun. "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
— Benjamin Franklin thats what i say to your bullshit security

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

Wow for someone of the military your pathetic. You can be 'secure' if you want as my sig says i would rather die free in any type of attack then live 'secure' like a slave. And we took saddam done for his strength not to free kuwait from his evil grasp. infact most people of kuwait dident care that he was there because kutwait was never free to begin with. Oil Oil Oil. I dare say the age of the free America is over and the age of the secure America has begun. "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
— Benjamin Franklin thats what i say to your bullshit security

Well, I dunno about you son, but the only freedoms anyone seems to be taking away nowadays, which seem not to raise such a big alarm, is its getting to where people cant even enjoy holidays like christmas and say the damn pledge of allegience without being drug into court.. if youre looking for freedoms being taken away, then there you go.. its pretty bullshit if I do say so myself.. I guess you people are right about our freedom of speech being infringed upon.. i mean, its to the point now where you cant even compliment anyone without being tried for sexual harassment and you cant even joke with anyone anymore without it being a hatecrime... i guess you guys are right.. but what I dont get is your blaming of Bush and all these damn republicans for taking all this shit away, when in fact its liberalism at its best.. political correctness. Forget the patriot act because the patriot act is not designed just to spy on any old person any old time.. thats a huge misconception.. how can you make a law that pretty much overides other laws such as the one that requires police to have a search warrant to search someones house.. it cant.. otherwise, you might as well just change the constitution. You still have have probable cause when youre going through someones belongings.. you still have to have a warrant for someones arrest. The Patriot Act just makes it a little easier for the FBI to detect potential terrorists in America, "sleeper cells", and nab them before they are able to strike. If you aint got nothin to hide, then why bitch about it?This has nothing to do with taking away any type of rights.. I mean, I can still voice my opinion about things even though people may not agree with it, I could still join clubs and groups without being arrested unless I absolutely did something wrong, I can still own a gun if I wanted to.. I havent noticed any other rights that have been taken away from me, granted, I am in the military and there are certain things civilians can do that we cant but thats my job. And to say that, for being in the military, I'm pretty pathetic.. well, brother, when I speak about this sort of stuff Im speaking on behalf of 97% of all the memebers of the military, because I garauntee you that they would say the same thing. And by the way, thank you, I take it as a compliment.

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

conspiracy.... so if you're in the army then you know how you guy's have almost no supplies and not enough armor or ammo or anything right? I know the soldiers that were shipped from where i live asked rumsfeld that question and he had no response. So where's all that money going then? b/c i think the #1 power in the world should be able to supply their troops efficiently.

also i wouldn't hide my drugs, b/c some people just dont care. like saddam could have just not cared. i wouldn't get in trouble.. so...

Logistics is rather complex. There's alot to do just to order certain things we need, but to start out.. The government gets the money through taxes to pay for everything from education down to, of course, defense. Supplies are not produced by the government.. supplies are produced mainly by contractors. The military uses defense revenue to pay contractors to supply with so much amount of whatever it is they need. The military is limited to how much its able to spend based on other expenses like upkeep of equipment, flying hours, maintaining hardware, you name it. The military also recieves money to pay for certain other logistics, like I know working with munitions and armament delivery systems that you need all kinds of tools and nuts and bolts to get the job done.. the amount of things we have to work with is alot.. and not only that but it costs ALOT of money (ex. say you bought a hammer at the store, it would only cost $10.. but from a contractor like Snap-on or Craftsman, the damn hammer can cost almost $100) Why its that way, Im not really sure but that has more to do with contracting that the government. Now, same goes with additions like plated armor for vehicles.. it probably takes longer to get these out to the field because the contractors have to design, engineer, test, and produce this sort of thing.. this takes time.. thats precisely what the SecDef was saying.. its a matter of production. Deciding on what the military needs doesnt depend on just one person. Congress needs to authorize the amount of spending on any type of defense project. There is probably a fixed of money amount the military is able to get at the beginning of the fiscal year.. this could used on anything like ammunition for weapons or anything that the would improve the organization such as wall paint.. but big projects like armor plating cost alot of money and dont fit well into the budget, so military might request money from congress to produce and get these types of necessities out to the boys on the ground.. but let me say this, when were short on supply, we usually make do.. I know many of times weve tried to assemble bomb racks when a critical piece is damaged only to find out that we dont have any in stock at the time, then we have either 1 of 2 choices: 1) Order it and wait for the part to come in or 2) Salvage a part from another rack needing maintainence and order the part against the rack in which we took from. My point is just because were undersupplied at the moment doesnt mean we arent able to get supplies, it just may take time.. and use what we have.

 

[SirWence]

Well, I dunno about you son, but the only freedoms anyone seems to be taking away nowadays, which seem not to raise such a big alarm, is its getting to where people cant even enjoy holidays like christmas and say the damn pledge of allegience without being drug into court.. if youre looking for freedoms being taken away, then there you go.. its pretty bullshit if I do say so myself.. I guess you people are right about our freedom of speech being infringed upon.. i mean, its to the point now where you cant even compliment anyone without being tried for sexual harassment and you cant even joke with anyone anymore without it being a hatecrime... i guess you guys are right.. but what I dont get is your blaming of Bush and all these damn republicans for taking all this shit away, when in fact its liberalism at its best.. political correctness. Forget the patriot act because the patriot act is not designed just to spy on any old person any old time.. thats a huge misconception.. how can you make a law that pretty much overides other laws such as the one that requires police to have a search warrant to search someones house.. it cant.. otherwise, you might as well just change the constitution. You still have have probable cause when youre going through someones belongings.. you still have to have a warrant for someones arrest. The Patriot Act just makes it a little easier for the FBI to detect potential terrorists in America, "sleeper cells", and nab them before they are able to strike. If you aint got nothin to hide, then why bitch about it?This has nothing to do with taking away any type of rights.. I mean, I can still voice my opinion about things even though people may not agree with it, I could still join clubs and groups without being arrested unless I absolutely did something wrong, I can still own a gun if I wanted to.. I havent noticed any other rights that have been taken away from me, granted, I am in the military and there are certain things civilians can do that we cant but thats my job. And to say that, for being in the military, I'm pretty pathetic.. well, brother, when I speak about this sort of stuff Im speaking on behalf of 97% of all the memebers of the military, because I garauntee you that they would say the same thing. And by the way, thank you, I take it as a compliment.

lol great logic on the patriot act.. check out the 4th amendment everything that section i forget if its 215 or 216 its all illegal political gibberish made legal even though it flys in the face of the 4th amend itself look you can give away your freedoms if you like id prefer to keep all of mine.. And i have a question of nationalist logic.. how in christs name are we defending america by destroying iraq lol.. a terrorist can walk in effortlessly well your 'takeing the fight to them' they can walk in and take it right back to you .. sigh stupid logic but what ever it takes to keep a failed war going i suppose

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

Wow for someone of the military your pathetic. You can be 'secure' if you want as my sig says i would rather die free in any type of attack then live 'secure' like a slave. And we took saddam done for his strength not to free kuwait from his evil grasp. infact most people of kuwait dident care that he was there because kutwait was never free to begin with. Oil Oil Oil. I dare say the age of the free America is over and the age of the secure America has begun. "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
— Benjamin Franklin thats what i say to your bullshit security

What I was trying to say was basically that, liberals like to bitch about taking freedoms away, but if you had all your freedoms and another terrorists pull of something more spectacular than 9/11 one day, then youd all bitch about how the government is not doing enough to protect us.. and like i said, you cant have it both ways.. especially with this type of enemy were fighting. And whatever "freedoms" it is that the government is "taking away" we still have a ton more than alot of other countries do.. so Im not gonna bitch when were in a middle of a war here, and the government wants to take measures to protect all of us and that may require limiting a freedom not necessarily taking it all away.. I say do what you gotta do.. I still have a right to vote, I still have a right to speak out against the government if theyre jackin' up.. I still have a right to hang out with who I wanna hang out with on a saturday nite.. i mean I among many still have the same freedoms weve always had. So i dunno whats so dire here.

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

lol great logic on the patriot act.. check out the 4th amendment everything that section i forget if its 215 or 216 its all illegal political gibberish made legal even though it flys in the face of the 4th amend itself look you can give away your freedoms if you like id prefer to keep all of mine.. And i have a question of nationalist logic.. how in christs name are we defending america by destroying iraq lol.. a terrorist can walk in effortlessly well your 'takeing the fight to them' they can walk in and take it right back to you .. sigh stupid logic but what ever it takes to keep a failed war going i suppose

My logic is stupid yet you still have no strategic inclination and no clue as to why.. youre so moved by us "stealing Oil".. its ridiculous.. the reason we secured these oil fields is not for our exploitation.. its the only thing that makes sense.. those oil fields are to be used to mend the Iraqi economy.. since its a big resource over there, what good would it do us to rebuild Iraq if they have nothing to base their economy off of? What else would they use? That is failed logic on your part.. the gas prices here are still high.. so wtf? I get it.. its just mass conspiracy of all the evil corporations that Bush and Cheney own that want all this money and are so greedy that theyll do anything in their power to make sure they get it... that is some ****ing stupid ass logic.. you cannot see anything for what it is, you like all alot of other liberals, are just sooo paranoid.. you people need to stop thinking too much and stop worryin.. either that or you need to lay off the drugs.

And with this type of response from you its clear to me that you do not have enough of a concept of war to say its failing. Its not that its failing thats killing you.. its that youre wanting us to fail.. theres no way around this.. twist it, turn it, and spin it all you want.. you just flat out dont want us to win because you dont agree with it.. thats all it is..

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

oy, how ignorant you are conspiarcy... you blindly follow the people that are trying to hurt you, and send you into harms way. it just shocks me and im glad not all troops think like you. some actually have opened their eye's and know what is going on. it's also funny how no one has seemed to respond to my troops not having enough supplies, especially you seeing as your a "trooper".
regardless of what you may think, i know i for one would rather have total freedom and "maybe" have to worry about someone attacking me, rather then knowing i could be attacked for protesting or lighting a J.

This is supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of the inclining depressed people, that are locked under their gov't control b/c they cannot see passed their own ignorance to open their eyes and step in the light for just one second. Thank god for level headed people in this world, and that not everyone is so easily ready to get rid of the thing that we should hold dearest to our hearts, freedom. It may not be apparent to you yet b/c you have not been directly affected by the patriot act 1 and 2 or such bills like it, but people have, and it's only going to continue to get worse. right up until the point that we become a police state. but o that's right, it's better to be locked in your home, not allowed to leave when you want, not allowed to carry out the conversations you want, and having your house searched everyday. Yes that is much better then having peace and tranquility, and the freedom to do what you want when you want, just as long as you are not hurting other people who do not want to be hurt.

Yes the thinking that you have makes me and many other people sick, that we could even have love for this country. I do not know where you grew up and what morals have been instilled (sp)in you, but they are the wrong morals if we are going to bring this country forward as the worlds leader of freedom and justice. right now all were getting is less freedoms and more injustice against average joe schmoes. enough is enough, and this shit just isn't going to fly for much longer. people will wake up soon and realize what is happening. my only fear is that it will be too late.

*NOTE- see how i tried not to attack you, or generalize you. i just chopped up your post and threw it back at you. that's b/c not all "liberals" are the same. not everyone is paranoid, people are just realising whats happening.

Umm.. i did respond to your question about supply.. but once again you failed to listen.. this is the second time ive explained it.

I never said I wanted to trade my freedoms for security.. its you guys who bitch when you cant have it both ways.. you still fail to listen to what I had to say.. and I dunno what "troops" youve been talking to lately but if you were to talk to roughly 97% of the people in the U.S. military, they share almost the same exact views as I do.. and no I dont blindly follow the government or only side with them because im "Supposed to" thats just a bunch of bullshit.. I try to see it from you guys point of view i really do.. but thats when I realize more that you guys dont know what the hell youre talking about.. Im sorry but I'll trust the American government over any other government any given day. You bitch about them taking away freedoms and all this bullshit but you cant even explain one freedom theyve taken away.. you cant without making up some bullshit story only based around your own personal opinion.. thats just stupid. Where are you getting all this bullshit that people are being locked in their houses and such.. where the **** are you getting this shit? I go out of my house everyday not a worry in the ****ing world.. the police aint never bothered me one bit.. you know why that is? because Im not doing shit.. and if they were to ask me if they wanted to search my car or my home.. go for it.. i dont have anything to hide.. but all this shit you talk about the government doing is way too far fetched. But why explain anything to you guys.. you dont listen anyway.. why dont you actually try reading some of my posts for once and then maybe you would see what im talkin about.. but you even missed my response to your question about supply and logistics.. i dunno if you just missed it or if you just refused to read it but dont tell me im just dodging the questions and refusing to answer.

Like I said earlier.. you got dumb****s like the ACLU and all this other non-governmental agencies that are taking freedoms away from people left and right, but yet its you liberal leftist types that support that shit.. Cant even say the damn pledge of allegience anymore without getting sued.. thats a bunch motha-****in bullshit.. Cant even celebrate christmas anymore because some sour-lipped people dont wanna hear christmas carrols and insist on claiming its forcing religion on people.. thats taking the freedom of speech and freedom of religion right there.. not only that, but like i said earlier.. you cant even compliment someone anymore without it becoming a sexual harrasment issue.. You cant even joke around with someone without it being a hatecrime.. and youre gonna tell me about our freedoms being taken away by the government?.. i think you need another damn look, son. Its not Bush and the republicans its organizations like the ****in ACLU and liberal judges that tend to legislate (which they arent supposed to do in the first place) in favor of these corrupt organizations that have no common sense whatsoever and are clearly doing more harm than ****in good.

 

[burner69]

Conspiracy, you clearly have very strong views on the subject, and with your military experience (am I allowed to ask where you're based at the mo?) you wield knowledge over that issue above most of us here.
And I presume you're quite inclined to the right? I don't like the right, but respect someone who believes in something and explains why, as you have... so I'll avoid the cliche anti-bush crap for you :cheers:

I agree totally that Saddam should have been removed as soon as (for now I'll leave out the notion that the CIA put hom there in the first place) - but why the hell was he given 12 years grace? Surely you see something wrong here, especially with presidents visiting him and discussing issues. I don't mean to sound single minded - but I can imagine Iraq's vast oil supplies being hot topic.

Afghanistan was invaded primarily as a response from 9/11. The American people, and most of the world, needed to see the guilty brought to justice. Being a nice good moral society we of cours eoverthrew the Taliban while we were there - or was it simply because they were helping the terrorists? This is curiousity; but would the media have reported on a very different Taliban if they agreed to allow America access to the oil supplies there, and had never funded terrorism. Or maybe even just the former.

As soon as Al-Quaeda were scared away (note: 'away', many did escape with their lives, in part down to the comparitively small number of troops sent there. These are people willing to give up their lives for what they believe, to think they won't regroup would be dangerously stupid)

Now comes Iraq. And I'll just write down a few factors I'm putting into consideration;
* Evil dictator
* Breaking previously signed agreement
* Third largest oil reserves in the world

All three of the above points have been dealt with, either through removal of Saddam or of using troops there to defend oil pipelines being built. Clearly Saddam AND Oil were taken into consideration during the invasion - the question is, which one was the driving force. And maybe even... is there a problem with it just being oil? I'll explain in a moment.

Now the US is looking to Iran, it seems, although other countries are on the cards. What is their intention this time?

As for this being primarily about terrorism, well, I don't buy it. Either the government are extremely stupid or they don't care. Fighting a concept, such as terrorism, is a counterproductive measure. These terrorists are attacking the US because of past military operations. Throwing more at them, especially Iraq - with this "45mins WMD" claim (made by the man favourite to be the new Iraqi president, with American backing) which has given this war a very mixed opinion - just brings more terrorists out of the woodwork. War on terrorism increases the number of terrorists. I don't mean to sound stark, but stamping out terrorism cannot be done. They operate in many different countries, new ones will spring up every time a new country is invaded, and the more countries are invaded, and people killed, the more aggressive they will become.
Just look at recent terrorism figures.

And I'd like to point out there is a vast difference betwen having the liberty of flirting removed because of (silly, I admit) laws that say it is harrasment, than having your right to privacy, express your political beliefs, and hold the right to citizenship stripped.

You have read about the Patriot act 2 haven't you? I admit some people go far with it, claiming a police state could be created with it. The chances of this happening are remote, but dosen't it concern you that soon the law will make this a possibility? Why do they want this possibility open?

Finally, the bit that gets me thinking.
OK, let's suppose this is all about oil. Oil is the most important resource on the planet at the moment, and control of it secures your country's future. At the end of the day we are different nations, maybe Bush does have the right to risk his people's lives for the sake of something that will strengthen his nation. The nation he swore to protect. The rest of us will not like it, of course, we don't want to see people dying, or long term, seeing America's economy shoot up up and away.
Or maybe we should think about utilising those oil subtitutes that are potentially possible to use and distribute now but, due to their low cost, they are kept locked away.

If this is all about terrorism, then we're not doing the right thing to stop it.

If this is about faliure to obey agreements, why are we suddenly attacking now; at such a dangerous time?

If this is about WMDs... well... maybe we were wrong, maybe we were right, but Saddam has never shown any signs of wishing to attack us on our own soil, why should he change his ways? Shooting down planes is different than launching offensives on the world's largest superpower.

If this is about oil, then maybe we're just witnessing the harsh reality of keeping on top of the world - dressed up to make it easier to digest. I'd rather believe my country was at war to stop terrorism, than to further my economy.

Only thing I know for sure is we'll never get told the answers.

Strange world we live in.

 

[SirWence]

I agree with you for the most part, and he said saddam tried to shoot down planes often yep and we also bombed the NFZ weekly and im sure that killed a few civilians. So nither side was right, dont try to make America look like some Jesus Like nation were just as corrupted as everyone else. Look i have said this many , many times you will NEVER win a war on 'terror' which is fear, by desimateing cities and killing people im sorry it wont work. And GunBoat Democracy never turns out well either Iraq isnt 'united' the kurds the sunni's and the shi'ates dont get along they all hate each other in different degrees as for our Republic installing a Democracy there its a nice dream yes, but only a dream. People have to want to be free first before we can make them free. In the American Rev. france dident rush in and say YOUR FREE FROM ENGLAND nor did the spainish or the dutch all of which were vital allies. We had to do the work first, then the powers helped. Not the powers free you, then you start your freedom movment.. Thats so ass backwards. You may have to read that a few times for it to sink in.

A strange and sad world we live in.

 

[Shad0hawK]

WARNING

IF YOU ARE DESTRESSED ABOUT TALKING ABOUT 9/11 DO NOT READ

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE BAD SPELLING DONT READ



hello im from england and i dont really no much about politics but i was told this shocking conspiracy theory by my teacher.

he said that 9/11 was conducted by someone in the U.S.A he said that they needed to got to irac to get oil because it was running out every wer else, but to invade irac they needed a reason so they made it look like they fluw the plain into the Twin towers. and they needed a big shocking event otherwise no one would go along with it.now i was shocked at this theory .said it was all about getting power and money through oil. He also said they had to assasination of presedent kenady because he wanted to pull the army out of vietnam because to many ppl were getting killed to get the oil.

so that what i was told and i was quite shocked and it made me feel small ;(

so what about the conspiracy theory that many teachers use their job to push political dogma instead of really educating?




sorry for the jest..i am not anal about grammar but the opportunity was just too good to pass up

now back to work.

 

[SirWence]

as a responce to what shadow said.. Donald Rumsfeld "theres an old saying in the pentagon -Ready Fire Aim-" putting everything else aside (from i love to bush to conspiracy). DR sure lived up to that statement, ive seen what happened to my loved ones when they came home and they lack of support they get from this "greatful nation" it makes me sick. DR should himself be sent off to war to fight ill-equiped. It seems that he is looking like RM' from vietnam. good memories. :hmph:

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

Response Part 1.

Conspiracy, you clearly have very strong views on the subject, and with your military experience (am I allowed to ask where you're based at the mo?) you wield knowledge over that issue above most of us here.
And I presume you're quite inclined to the right? I don't like the right, but respect someone who believes in something and explains why, as you have... so I'll avoid the cliche anti-bush crap for you :cheers:

Yes, I would be inclined to the right and i respect the fact that you and possibly sirwench respect my position on these issues though we may not all agree.. i do tend to get worked up about things because i have a certain point of view and when someone else doesnt see eye to eye it gets a little frustrating sometimes but were all human and we all do that. Yes, I'm in the Air Force, I just got back from Kunsan AB in Korea and now Stationed at Dyess AFB, TX.. (need to change my location).

I agree totally that Saddam should have been removed as soon as (for now I'll leave out the notion that the CIA put hom there in the first place) - but why the hell was he given 12 years grace? Surely you see something wrong here, especially with presidents visiting him and discussing issues. I don't mean to sound single minded - but I can imagine Iraq's vast oil supplies being hot topic.

Well, I'm dunno if you know the reason why weve supported Saddam in the first place.. but the reason we supported Saddam back in the 80's was during the Iraq-Iran war Iran was a bigger threat at the time.. this does not mean that we were by any means friends.. we had a common enemy. Look at the Soviet Union back in WWII.. We were allies with Stalin and we all know he was the biggest tyrant that ever walked the face of the earth.. but we didnt have to like him to defeat the Germans, we had a common enemy and a common interest. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".. this is strategic because this shows some unity between potential allies to deal with a common threat.

Well honestly, to me it didnt make much sense to give Saddam 12 years of leeway, I mean he just continued to defy the cease fire agreement and 16 different UN resolutions.. He not only, to the best of our knowledge, produced or bought WMD or the equipment to develop WMD, but he also bought conventional weapons from countries like France China and Russia when he clearly wasnt supposed to. Remember 30 some-odd jets they found under the sand? The Al-Samoud SSM which were not supposed to have a range greater than 100km. The Chinese silkworm anti-ship missiles.. these are weapons he wasnt supposed to have, only God knows what else he had.. but if we cant even trust this guy to follow the agreement in which he vowed to abide by after the 91 Gulf War, how can we trust him with anything.. i mean how can pick and chose what to trust with this guy with when he isnt trustworthy at all... you know the saying, "when you lose someones trust, its hard to earn it back".. its true in this case as well.

Now, as for the Oil reserves, they were protected because they were supposed to be the basis of the IRaqi economy.. i mean, think about it, what else would they have to trade other than oil.. You may be right, we may use the oil.. there's nothing wrong with securing resources.. it happens all of the time in war.. its vital in war to secure resources, but this is by no means the reason we went to war.. we have Saudi-Arabia and Venezuela that produce more oil than Iraq does but there havent been any plans to attack them. In fact, were trying to be independent on foreign oil.. thats why were looking to drill in ANWR and other places.. maybe there isnt as much as there is in the Middle east but atleast it would ease some dependency. Obviously we need this stuff, to get to and from work everyday so it cant all be a bad thing, but i strongly disagree that this was the main reason for war.. its just one of those rewards I was talking about.. remember when I explained about weighing the costs of action vs inaction and the fact that you must also have something to gain as a result.. this could be security, a strategic foothold in the region or resources, but weighing the costs must always come first to reward.. thats why I know oil is not the big factor here and the reason were successful is because weve weighed the costs of action vs inaction and the costs vs reward.

Afghanistan was invaded primarily as a response from 9/11. The American people, and most of the world, needed to see the guilty brought to justice. Being a nice good moral society we of cours eoverthrew the Taliban while we were there - or was it simply because they were helping the terrorists? This is curiousity; but would the media have reported on a very different Taliban if they agreed to allow America access to the oil supplies there, and had never funded terrorism. Or maybe even just the former.

Youre right we went to Afghanistan because thats where the enemy was based.. The Taliban was just the name of the regime, they were a terrorist organization in which we hear about day in and day out.. Al Queda. Weve had some trouble with the Taliban before.. this is nothin new, especially in the wake of 9/11. And of course, we knew that thats where Osama Bin Laden was.

Now, The media is a vital part on the war terror in fact. The reason terrorism is so bad, is because it gets publicity. When people turn on the set every couple of weeks or months, you'll see on the news about a terrorist attack or even Osama's ugly mug spoutin about how he has another plan to attack.. The media, though they may not realize, give the terrorists the power which they dont deserve. The media portray the U.S. losing the terror war, this is a good recruiting tool for terrorists because people naturally tend to side with the "strongest". Why the media is so bent on making the U.S. the big bad bully, is simply beyond me. But I know one thing, if were losing anything in this war on terror its not the ground in which were fighting for, its the media.

As soon as Al-Quaeda were scared away (note: 'away', many did escape with their lives, in part down to the comparitively small number of troops sent there. These are people willing to give up their lives for what they believe, to think they won't regroup would be dangerously stupid)

Well, they probably will regroup, thats why we need to stay on the offensive, break the communication lines and deprive them of resources, no army can be sustained with broken communication and without proper resources. Youre right, they are willing to fight for their cause, but our objective is to break that will to fight.. thats objective in any war.

Now comes Iraq. And I'll just write down a few factors I'm putting into consideration;
* Evil dictator
* Breaking previously signed agreement
* Third largest oil reserves in the world

All three of the above points have been dealt with, either through removal of Saddam or of using troops there to defend oil pipelines being built. Clearly Saddam AND Oil were taken into consideration during the invasion - the question is, which one was the driving force. And maybe even... is there a problem with it just being oil? I'll explain in a moment.

Well, like I said earlier, oil cannot be the basis of the war otherwise we'd be wasting our time trying to rebuild Iraq because oil is the biggest resource Iraq has to offer in order to jump start its economy.. whether we have a deal with them later that allows more oil imports to be shipped to the states is all in reward. But the costs being measured vs taking action and not taking action had some substantial significance to where if we didnt go to war, we risk having saddam decieve even more and may potentially produce weapons to sell to terrorists.. we already know he supported terrorism.. there have been links to al queda through Iraq not necessarily the even of 9/11, and not only that but he offered up money to palestinian families whos sons and sisters, mothers or fathers used suicide tactics against the jews. Whether youre a fan of jews or not doesnt really matter, what matters is that that is clearly terrorism.. the same type of people in which were dealing with to this day. We know Saddam has produced chemical and biological weapons in the past, and has even used them. So to trust this guy that he would not produce once again under our very nose, and that he wouldnt ever deal these types of arms to terrorists is not risk we are well worth willing to take. Whether we found them or not can prove to be either good or bad.. good being, well, maybe he didnt have them, or bad, maybe he shipped them to syria, which is widely talked about. Either way, its still an unknown and to say he never had them is not necessarily true.

Now the US is looking to Iran, it seems, although other countries are on the cards. What is their intention this time?

Well, right now Iran seems to be more lenient in regards to stepping down with thier nuclear program.. but we are watching this unfold and, as of now, Iran SEEMS to be cooperating. Even though we should trust that maybe theyre as good as their word, we still need to verify we can trust them. Now people often wonder why we dont take action against countries such as Iran and North Korea like we did with Iraq and Iran, is simply because people think that there is one universal strategy to every situation.. strategy is not about just attacking.. in fact attack is second to positioning.. how you position yourself can be done in numerous ways. But this does not by any means rule out the necessity of attack, but attack should only be used to help gain a position. And like I said previously, you must weigh costs of attack.

...

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

Response Part 2

As for this being primarily about terrorism, well, I don't buy it. Either the government are extremely stupid or they don't care. Fighting a concept, such as terrorism, is a counterproductive measure. These terrorists are attacking the US because of past military operations. Throwing more at them, especially Iraq - with this "45mins WMD" claim (made by the man favourite to be the new Iraqi president, with American backing) which has given this war a very mixed opinion - just brings more terrorists out of the woodwork. War on terrorism increases the number of terrorists. I don't mean to sound stark, but stamping out terrorism cannot be done. They operate in many different countries, new ones will spring up every time a new country is invaded, and the more countries are invaded, and people killed, the more aggressive they will become.
Just look at recent terrorism figures.

Well, I disagree that its counterproductive, although I do agree that you will never be able to stop terrorism in its entirety. But, we can get to the point where it will no longer be tolerated.. and people will see it as a lost cause. This is where I was talking about the media being a strong tool for terrorist recruits.. they see that success is being projected among the media against the U.S. when infact the opposite is occuring. What the goal of the U.S. should be, as far as the media goes, is that we need to start using it to gain an advantage.. like we did during the first gulf war. We used the media to make saddam think we were planning and going to execute a D-Day type invasion on the Kuiwati coast when infact the opposite was true.
All war is based on deception and we should always look at our disadvantages objectively and see how we can gain an advantage.. thats what war is all about. Attacking constantly is foolish and is a great misconception about what war is about. But like I said, attack should never be ruled out but only used to gain a position.

And I'd like to point out there is a vast difference betwen having the liberty of flirting removed because of (silly, I admit) laws that say it is harrasment, than having your right to privacy, express your political beliefs, and hold the right to citizenship stripped.

Well, i must say nothing is perfect especially the way our government works. Some people may even get the worse end of the deal by governmental legislation.. i mean misfortunes happen all the time but not just because of the government..
Some guy and his friends that I talked to were chillin' hangin out one nite and all of a sudden the cops busted in.. they pointed guns at them and told them to get on the ground.. well the guy who owned the house asked them if they had a search warrant. They didnt answer.. they searched around the house and they searched the guys they told to get down, and well, according to one guy I talked to who was at the house, he said that they just took some money from his friend and left..
Now, one may speculate that this was because of legislation like the patriot act.. they still dont know why they busted into their house, but its kinda odd how they only took money from them with no search warrant to their knowledge.. but it may not have been something like the Patriot act to allow these guys to just come into someone's house, without displaying a warrant, and steal money. It sounds like these were just a bunch of corrupt cops.. this type of thing happens alot. There are corrupt cops everywhere, and i dont care what law is passed to be carried out, there are going to be cops out there just like everyone else who disobeys they law. But as far as most people go, they still have rights to their privacy, they still have rights to express their political beliefs, and they still have the right to protest. Now, this does mean you can protest and express your beliefs with violence. Most people who say that their rights are being taken away, more than likely are taking them for granted. Even though there may be flaws in our government, I cannot think of a better government to live under. But we must not limit our infringement of our rights to just the government when we have other non-governmental organizations out there that are trying to take away our rights as well. If the majority of people felt that the government was taking away their rights, rest assure that most would not tolerate it.. remember the power is in the people not in the government. Thats how our government was supposed to be based on.

You have read about the Patriot act 2 haven't you? I admit some people go far with it, claiming a police state could be created with it. The chances of this happening are remote, but dosen't it concern you that soon the law will make this a possibility? Why do they want this possibility open?

Well, a police state could be made without the patriot act.. i mean if we really wanted to, we could just declare martial law. But even though the Patriot Act may be used to search for potential terrorists, theyre still not supposed to search without a search warrant.. theyre still not allowed to make an arrest without a an arrest warrant. But when someone shows intentions of terrorist activity, this is cause for concern. It is a matter of gaining intelligence.. but the real challenge is, how can they do it while protecting the rights of citizens.. well, like i said, nothing is perfect, but i do believe were trying our best to stay out of peoples normal lives and gather information at the same time.. this is difficult to do, can we all agree? Im not saying we should give up our freedom for our protection but rather how can we better protect ourselves, especially with a particular threat such as terrorism, while at the same time preserving the freedoms of every person.. its difficult, i would expect that mistakes would be made.. but i do not believe it is our straight forward intentions to limit people's overall freedoms.

Finally, the bit that gets me thinking.
OK, let's suppose this is all about oil. Oil is the most important resource on the planet at the moment, and control of it secures your country's future. At the end of the day we are different nations, maybe Bush does have the right to risk his people's lives for the sake of something that will strengthen his nation. The nation he swore to protect. The rest of us will not like it, of course, we don't want to see people dying, or long term, seeing America's economy shoot up up and away.
Or maybe we should think about utilising those oil subtitutes that are potentially possible to use and distribute now but, due to their low cost, they are kept locked away.

Well, we are trying to find alternatives to oil consumption, like hybrid cars.. more fuel efficient engines, and other types of technology. But oil consumption is still pretty high and will take some time before our dependency on oil is lessened to the point where were depending more on the technology. But, like I said before, securing resources isnt necessarily a bad thing but I really dont believe thats our driving factor for this war.

If this is all about terrorism, then we're not doing the right thing to stop it.

So, what are our alternatives? Giving in to the demands of terrorists should never be an option. However I do believe, like I was saying previously, that we need to secure an advantage in the media war in order to have more control. But appeasment never works.. if the terrorists see that theyre getting their way, they will ask for more.. they call us infidels for cryin out loud.. they would destroy us all if given the chance.

If this is about faliure to obey agreements, why are we suddenly attacking now; at such a dangerous time?

Well, before 9/11 we were hung up on thinking that, since were pretty isolated geographically and that we are a superpower, and considering we have really stood the tests of time, we were invincible.. now is not the case, and now is not the time to cut our enemies anymore slack.. its kinda like saying enough is enough.. now I think we shoulda taken out saddam earlier, but with the lesson 9/11 to be learned, we shouldnt take our position for granted even though we may be the strongest nation in the world.

If this is about WMDs... well... maybe we were wrong, maybe we were right, but Saddam has never shown any signs of wishing to attack us on our own soil, why should he change his ways? Shooting down planes is different than launching offensives on the world's largest superpower.

Well, saddam doesnt have to attack us directly to be any type of threat. We werent worried about him launching ICBMs.. we were worried about the potential production and distribution of WMD to terrorists. And firing at our planes is an act of war.. the idea behind the cease-fire agreement is to.. well.. cease fire.

If this is about oil, then maybe we're just witnessing the harsh reality of keeping on top of the world - dressed up to make it easier to digest. I'd rather believe my country was at war to stop terrorism, than to further my economy.

Well you cant have one without the other.. even though were at war, our economy can still grow.

Only thing I know for sure is we'll never get told the answers.

no one knows all the answers thats for sure.

Strange world we live in.

Yeah it is.

 

[OCybrManO]

Well, we are trying to find alternatives to oil consumption, like hybrid cars.. more fuel efficient engines, and other types of technology. But oil consumption is still pretty high and will take some time before our dependency on oil is lessened to the point where were depending more on the technology. But, like I said before, securing resources isnt necessarily a bad thing but I really dont believe thats our driving factor for this war.

We could already have cars that run on a corn-based fuel... and we grow a lot of corn. We could already have cars that use electricity (stored in car batteries by solar cells when not in use) to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen... and then combust the hydrogen as fuel instead of gas/petrol (the only "pollutants" produced by this method would be water and maybe a little leftover oxygen or hydrogen). The government could enforce strict efficiency guidelines in cars that will be built over the next few years to cut back on our future usage of gas/petrol... like many other countries. The oil companies lobby/bribe the politicians for help in keeping their oligopoly. They would rather lose a relatively small chunk on buying politicians than losing their whole business by having mandatory use of alternative fuel sources. There are tons of things the government could do right now but instead they only make it look like they are putting forth an effort by enacting legislation that will go into effect a decade, or more, later... and legislation that is full of loopholes for the oil companies' lawyers to use to keep them from being effected for another 5 years to a decade. So, I wouldn't exactly use the phrase "trying to find alternatives." The government is waiting to use alternatives until our resources are almost dry.

 

[SirWence]

"Well, saddam doesnt have to attack us directly to be any type of threat. We werent worried about him launching ICBMs.. we were worried about the potential production and distribution of WMD to terrorists. And firing at our planes is an act of war.. the idea behind the cease-fire agreement is to.. well.. cease fire."
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Both sides broke that cease fire various times dont make it seem like we were the victims, it has even been argued we shot first on more then on occasion, that should be common knowledge.
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But yes, I honestly do not think you can defeat 'terror' which is fear, with war. War only breads more fear and more hate. This isnt like WW2 your not breaking a nations will to fight your trying to find a select group and break them.. Its not only nations who support them, But very well 'rich' men of whom we cannot touch. But i wouldent be surpirsed if we started to assasinate leaders again, would prob help with the rich men i spoke of just a second ago. the less fear and the less hate the less terrorism.

I also would never put it past ours nor anyone elses gov. to simply sponser or create there own terrorist attacks. The best way to control a people is to 1 Create a enviorenment of constant fear/war and 2 silence the pacifists and dissenters by makeing the public see them as makeing the nation weak and more open to attack. I myself have fallen victim to this ' your giving the enemy aid and comfort for saying stuff like that' that little tid bit coming from the ignorant blind/nationalist masses.

And on the police state. Your right the pres. could declare martial law instantly, but do that and you will have alot of fighting withen this country and i highly doubt you will have most of the military even on your side. But do it nice and slow with laws like the the P-act 1 and 2 and this new Intel BS bill. And it gets done nice and slow and unnoticed, the people will only try and stop it if they see it happening. They dont nor in my mind do i think they ever will till it is far beyond to-late.

peace- :|

 

[OCybrManO]

Yes, it's like a frog (I think) in hot water. If you toss him into hot water he will notice and try to escape. If you put him in luke warm water and gradually heat it he won't try to get out even if the water reaches the same temperature.

 

[SirWence]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-15-national-id-card_x.htm <-- make sure you read the bottom where she notes it would not have stoped 9/11 basicly

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

again just replying to what i read, and... i dunno what news your watching, or what paper your reading. But i for one see a terrorist attack everyday... not once in a couple weeks.

Im talking about major terrorist attacks.. youre right we do see terrorism everyday though.. but its not everyday osama comes out with a tape.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Well, we see Terrorists attacks everyday, because of the oversea's bottleneck. The only reason the Insurgency is upping attacks, is because of Elections, and also; because Fallujah caused them to loose a large contingent in that 20,000 estimated number.

 

[SirWence]

Well, we see Terrorists attacks everyday, because of the oversea's bottleneck. The only reason the Insurgency is upping attacks, is because of Elections, and also; because Fallujah caused them to loose a large contingent in that 20,000 estimated number.

Thanks for telling me what i hear on ABC radio lol.. yes we delt a major blow.. mhm indeed. they never accually tell you how many they really kill or many civis we kill its all just left out. Oh and btw all terrorism is focused on iraq and i doubt they lost a large contingent because what i herd it was around 1200 figers not 20k