Poll on Abortion

[el Chi]

If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. Seriously, if you don't want a baby that much, then just don't have sex. Honestly, people need to think about the consequences of their actions, and frankly saying "Oh...well I can just get an abortion" is a perfect example of the frivalous atttudes of people today. I don't just mean the loss of life, even though that is massivly important, I mean the way people always look for the quick fix instead of doing the right thing in the first place.

I agree that we live in a quick-fix society much of the time, but I don't think people really see abortions as that.
I know people who've had abortions (just to clarify, I know nobody who's had more than one) and it's not something a person enters into lightly; it's not:

"Oooh, I'm late... Hmmm, I'll do a pregnancy test. Oh drat I'm up the duff. Oh well, it's off to the abortion clinic after shool again today!"

People do have genuine dilemmas about those decisions, which are very emotional. I think people don't take into account the possibility that the woman in question isn't being quite so flippant about it.

 

[Pogrom]

why should she HAS to be the one to say no?
well, she doesn't have to if you does want sex, but if she doesn't he just says 'no'

and the guy is just as responsible as the girl, no question in that

as they say 'it takes two'

Well then, if we do make abortion illegal, and we agree that the guy is just as responsible as the girl, then it only makes sense to pass a law that forces the guy to marry and be fiscally responsible for the girl and baby.

It will be just a matter of education - once people know that you can't have sex outside of marriage. For that matter, let's outlaw divorce as well.

 

[GiaOmerta]

Stop talking crap pal; your postings are nothing but flaming and self centred drivel

You learn something everday. I had no idea what drivel meant.
I've been saying some of idealogical bullshit lately, but hey what can you do?

That drink your children's blood was a little far fetched, but I'm trying to make a point here. Every generation is ****ing over the next. We're living for the spur of the moment. Me me me me me me me me me me. What about Joe-Smo 30 years from now? Our children and grandchildren?

 

[Absinthe]

Ahhh your solution, Absinthe solves the puzzle. We shall murder our children and we shall drink their blood.

I'd appreciate it if you actually made an argument rather than subject me to your trite sarcasm. :thumbs:

 

[Raziaar]

I'd appreciate it if you actually made an argument rather than subject me to your trite sarcasm. :thumbs:

Well... it was either that, or murder our children and harvest their organs for beer money.

 

[AzzMan]

Well... it was either that, or murder our children and harvest their organs for beer money.

Harvest....organs....for beer money....Brilliant!!!! :thumbs:

 

[el Chi]

I'd appreciate it if you actually made an argument rather than subject me to your trite sarcasm. :thumbs:

Pffft - trite sarcasm!? I was hoping he was being serious.
"Barman! Children's blood for EVERYONE! Cheers!"

 

[ALEXDJ]

see how you all would talk if you were ABORTED

 

[Raziaar]

Diary Of An Unborn Child

October 5 —Today my life began. My parents do not know it yet, I am as small as a seed of an apple, but it is I already. And I am to be a girl. I shall have blond hair and blue eyes. Just about everything is settled though, even the fact that I shall love flowers.

October 19 —Some say that I am not a real person yet, that only my mother exists. But I am a real person, just as a small crumb of bread is yet truly bread. My mother is. And I am.

October 23 —My mouth is just beginning to open now. Just think, in a year or so I shall be laughing and later talking. I know what my first word will be: MAMA.

October 25 —My heart began to beat today all by itself. From now on it shall gently beat for the rest of my life without ever stopping to rest! And after many years it will tire. It will stop, and then I shall die.

November 2 —I am growing a bit every day. My arms and legs are beginning to take shape. But I have to wait a long time yet before those little legs will raise me to my mother’s arms, before these little arms will be able to gather flowers and embrace my father.

November 12 —tiny fingers are beginning to form on my hands. Funny how small they are! I’ll be able to stroke my mother’s hair with them.

November 20 —It wasn’t until today that the doctor told mom that I am living here under her heart. Oh, how happy she must be! Are you happy, mom?

November 25 —My mom and dad are probably thinking about a name for me. But they don’t even know that I am a little girl. I want to be called Kathy. I am getting so big already.

December 10 —My hair is growing. It is smooth and bright and shiny. I wonder what kind of hair mom has.

December 13 —I am just about able to see. It is dark around me. When mom brings me into the world it will be full of sunshine and flowers. But what I want more than anything is to see my mom. How do you look, mom?

December 24 —I wonder if mom hears the whispering of my heart? Some children come into the world a little sick. But my heart is strong and healthy. It beats so evenly: tup-tup,tup-tup. You’ll have a healthy little daughter, mom!

December 28 —Today my mother killed me.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Diary Of An Unborn Child

October 5 —Today my life began. My parents do not know it yet, I am as small as a seed of an apple, but it is I already. And I am to be a girl. I shall have blond hair and blue eyes. Just about everything is settled though, even the fact that I shall love flowers.

October 19 —Some say that I am not a real person yet, that only my mother exists. But I am a real person, just as a small crumb of bread is yet truly bread. My mother is. And I am.

October 23 —My mouth is just beginning to open now. Just think, in a year or so I shall be laughing and later talking. I know what my first word will be: MAMA.

October 25 —My heart began to beat today all by itself. From now on it shall gently beat for the rest of my life without ever stopping to rest! And after many years it will tire. It will stop, and then I shall die.

November 2 —I am growing a bit every day. My arms and legs are beginning to take shape. But I have to wait a long time yet before those little legs will raise me to my mother’s arms, before these little arms will be able to gather flowers and embrace my father.

November 12 —tiny fingers are beginning to form on my hands. Funny how small they are! I’ll be able to stroke my mother’s hair with them.

November 20 —It wasn’t until today that the doctor told mom that I am living here under her heart. Oh, how happy she must be! Are you happy, mom?

November 25 —My mom and dad are probably thinking about a name for me. But they don’t even know that I am a little girl. I want to be called Kathy. I am getting so big already.

December 10 —My hair is growing. It is smooth and bright and shiny. I wonder what kind of hair mom has.

December 13 —I am just about able to see. It is dark around me. When mom brings me into the world it will be full of sunshine and flowers. But what I want more than anything is to see my mom. How do you look, mom?

December 24 —I wonder if mom hears the whispering of my heart? Some children come into the world a little sick. But my heart is strong and healthy. It beats so evenly: tup-tup,tup-tup. You’ll have a healthy little daughter, mom!

December 28 —Today my mother killed me.

what a powerful post, did you make it up yourself?

 

[Raziaar]

what a powerful post, did you make it up yourself?

No. I took it from a forum whom that person also took from somewhere else. I don't know the origin of it.

EDIT: And I think this might be the original of it. The one I posted seems to be edited a bit. All other sites I see share the same words with the one below.

http://www.ctcn.net/~ccrtl/diary_of_an_unborn_child.htm

Diary of an Unborn Child

March 28: Today my life began. My parents don't know it yet. I am smaller than the seed of an apple. But already I am I. And unformed as I am right now, I am going to be a girl.

April 12: I have grown a little, but I am still too small to do anything by myself, Mother does just about everything for me. And what is so funny is that she does not even know that she is carrying me here, right under her heart.

April 17: My mouth is just forming now. Just think, in a year or so I will be laughing. Later I will be able to speak. My first word will be, "Mother." Who says I'm not a person yet? I am, just as the tiniest crumb of bread is still truly bread.

April 22: My heart began to beat today. From now on it will gently beat all the rest of my life. Then, after many years, it will tire and stop, and I shall die. But now I am at the beginning - not the ending.

April 29: Every day I grow a bit. My arms and legs are beginning to take shape. But, I will have to wait a long time before my legs will carry me running to my mother's arms and before my arms can embrace my daddy.

May 14: Now tiny fingers are beginning to form. Strange how small they are, but how wonderful they will be. They will pet a puppy, throw a ball and touch another hand. They may even play a violin or paint a picture one day.

May 23: Today the doctor told mother I am living under her heart. They may expect a boy, but I am a little girl, I want to be called Dominique.

June 3: My face is completely formed. I hope I look like mother. Soon my eyes will see the sunshine, the flowers, the sea and the mountains.

June 10: Mother, I can hear your heart beating. You will have a healthy little daughter. I can hardly wait to touch your face and look into your eyes.



Mother, why did you let them stop my life?
We would have been so happy!

 

[ALEXDJ]

how did that banner get on this forum? the one all the way on the bottom

 

[Absinthe]

One problem with the little journal.

The kid ain't ****ing conscious.

 

[Raziaar]

One problem with the little journal.

The kid ain't ****ing conscious.

I guess if I whacked you upside your head I could do whatever I wanted to you then as you lay unconcious, huh?

You rave on and on about consciousness. How these embryo's/fetuses lack it. How about conscience? Do the murderers you love to let live have that? No. Conscious. Conscience. Very similiar looking, big difference. I'd sooner let one without the former live than one without the latter.

But I guess our priorities in life our different. Killers are worthy of life, those yet unborn are not.

Hell, why do we even procreate? The damn things aren't worth our time anyways. I mean... because they aren't concious right? The fact that they would without a doubt, no chance about it gain conciousness doesn't factor into anything. The fact that they aren't just a 'potential human'. They are a guaranteed human. Cause of course the damn thing could grow up to be a human or a fish or an elephant... it just has the 'potential' to become a human. /sarcasm

 

[Absinthe]

I guess if I whacked you upside your head I could do whatever I wanted to you then as you lay unconcious, huh?

You will have robbed something from me. You are very much in the wrong.

You rave on and on about consciousness. How these embryo's/fetuses lack it. How about conscience? Do the murderers you love to let live have that? No. Conscious. Conscience. Very similiar looking, big difference. I'd sooner let one without the former live than one without the latter.

I do not protect a criminal's right to live necessarily because he deserves it, but because the justice system is fallible. I also find "eye for an eye" practices to be barbaric.

The fact that you pigeonhole me into some kind of morally twisted category (Yes, I absolutely love murderers and rapists) just shows how little you know of your opposition.

Hell, why do we even procreate? The damn things aren't worth our time anyways. I mean... because they aren't concious right? The fact that they would without a doubt, no chance about it gain conciousness doesn't factor into anything. The fact that they aren't just a 'potential human'. They are a guaranteed human. Cause of course the damn thing could grow up to be a human or a fish or an elephant... it just has the 'potential' to become a human. /sarcasm

Are you out procreating right now? If you aren't, why not? All those little Raziaars building up in your testicles could become fully grown humans. Put them to good use and make a baby. But let me guess, you're probably going to ejaculate the poor bastards onto a piece of toilet paper and give them a trip down to Toilet Town. Have you ever thought of all the potential life you've wasted? You sick murdering son of a bitch. How dare you forfeit the life of something that does not yet exist.

/sarcasm

 

[ALEXDJ]

Are you out procreating right now? If you aren't, why not? All those little Raziaars building up in your testicles could become fully grown humans. Put them to good use and make a baby. But let me guess, you're probably going to ejaculate the poor bastards onto a piece of toilet paper and give them a trip down to Toilet Town. Have you ever thought of all the potential life you've wasted? You sick murdering son of a bitch. How dare you forfeit the life of something that does not yet exist.

/sarcasm

, it's only one part of the equetion, he needs an egg, but i see your point

 

[Absinthe]

, it's only one part of the equetion, he needs an egg, but i see your point

Likewise, an undeveloped foetus is also only part of the equation.

 

[Raziaar]

Are you out procreating right now? If you aren't, why not? All those little Raziaars building up in your testicles could become fully grown humans. Put them to good use and make a baby. But let me guess, you're probably going to ejaculate the poor bastards onto a piece of toilet paper and give them a trip down to Toilet Town. Have you ever thought of all the potential life you've wasted? You sick murdering son of a bitch. How dare you forfeit the life of something that does not yet exist.

/sarcasm

I'm not stupid enough to not see the difference between a sperm, and an intelligent lifeform. I don't consider a sperm to be a life worth sparing. It has the potential to be a life, yes, but only when fertilizing an egg. I also stay firm to the fact that I have no qualms about abortion at an early stage in pregnancy. This is the time that it should be decided whether or not the parents choose to have the baby. BEFORE the thing develops into the recognizable appearance of a child... before its brainwaves start flowing.

I'm not 100% anti-choice, because I believe the woman should have a choice to abort, at an early stage in the pregnancy, or when the woman is found to be at severe risk of bodily harm. And also in instances of rape, which should be done immediately. I mean... rape is something that should be aborted immediately after conception in the hospital if the baby is not desired. Its not something you wait around and say 'ohh, let me think about it for a few months while the baby develops before I decide whether to kill it or not.

Thats all about where it ends for me though. I'm perceptive enough to know when a baby has advanced beyond a certain stage of 'non-sentience'. You don't seem to be the same way. See, there is no divide for you. Its either life, or its not. Black and white. And from what you have posted, you're basically saying its not alive until its out of the womb. So with your logic, babies 9 months pregnant and a little late are still ripe for killing. Which is far more barbaric than the 'state' taking the life of a convicted felon who knowingly and unremorsefully murdered/raped/what have you.

See... with you, the legal system is fallible. Okay, I see that. Fine. But what you don't see, is that the process of a baby's development and birth from the womb, is practically infallible with the exceptions of natural miscarriages or the zygote not implanting on the uterine wall. There are many ways a person might not become a person from fertilization of an egg. But most of them are natural... nature's own checks and balances.

So your notions of fallibility don't really have any effect on me. The fallibility you speak of is human derived, whereas with babies, it tends to be nature's fallibilities. Abortion at a late stage of development is the exact same thing as an innocent man on death row. Its infallibility, both of which are human. In the case of the death penalty, somehow the innocent man got sentenced to death. In the case of abortion... the human fault is by the person deciding to end the life of the child when the likelihood is, that baby would, if given the chance, finish developing into a healthy boy or girl and be born.

Bah. My post was long and rambling. Pfft, i'm gonna go for a while. too tired.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Likewise, an undeveloped foetus is also only part of the equation.

sorry, fetus is THE equation

 

[Absinthe]

sorry, fetus is THE equation

Do you know what the difference between a developed and an undeveloped human is? I'm sorry, but you don't know what in the hell you're talking about.

Raziaar, I'll address your post some time tomorrow, since it's late here and I need to sleep. But I'll tell you in advance that you have so many ridiculous misconceptions on my views that I probably would have racked up a few warnings if I replied at this moment in time.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Do you know what the difference between a developed and an undeveloped human is? I'm sorry, but you don't know what in the hell you're talking about.

.

so, undervelped human is not a human, so baby is not a human?

what are you saying?

 

[CptStern]

babies dont stop developing till they're fully grown ..about 20 years of age or so (even then the mind is still developing ...at least for some of us ). I got to see what a baby looks like at 7 months ...big difference than what it looks like at 9 months

 

[Raziaar]

Do you know what the difference between a developed and an undeveloped human is? I'm sorry, but you don't know what in the hell you're talking about.

Raziaar, I'll address your post some time tomorrow, since it's late here and I need to sleep. But I'll tell you in advance that you have so many ridiculous misconceptions on my views that I probably would have racked up a few warnings if I replied at this moment in time.

Well maybe you should elaborate on your views a little more than just saying 'an unborn baby is not a person'. Because as it stands now, the impression I have gotten from you is that right up until the moment the baby is delivered, it is not a living, sentient, conscious human being.

I can understand if you argued about that early in pregnancy, but not mid-late pregnancy.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm not stupid enough to not see the difference between a sperm, and an intelligent lifeform. I don't consider a sperm to be a life worth sparing. It has the potential to be a life, yes, but only when fertilizing an egg. I also stay firm to the fact that I have no qualms about abortion at an early stage in pregnancy. This is the time that it should be decided whether or not the parents choose to have the baby. BEFORE the thing develops into the recognizable appearance of a child... before its brainwaves start flowing.

You eat things with far more sentience than a foetus. If the best you can come up with is "it looks human", then this conversation is over.

And allow me to inform you that I have yet to form a concrete opinion on late-term abortions.

I'm not 100% anti-choice, because I believe the woman should have a choice to abort, at an early stage in the pregnancy, or when the woman is found to be at severe risk of bodily harm. And also in instances of rape, which should be done immediately. I mean... rape is something that should be aborted immediately after conception in the hospital if the baby is not desired. Its not something you wait around and say 'ohh, let me think about it for a few months while the baby develops before I decide whether to kill it or not.

Funny how you accuse people of taking abortions so lightly, and yet you urge them to make hasty decisions.
Regardless of how I may feel about abortions, the fact remains that they are still difficult to go through with for many people. People will hesitate. People will change their minds often. The situations will be different, and the contexts for early pregnancy and late pregnancy may be vastly different.

Thats all about where it ends for me though. I'm perceptive enough to know when a baby has advanced beyond a certain stage of 'non-sentience'. You don't seem to be the same way. See, there is no divide for you. Its either life, or its not. Black and white. And from what you have posted, you're basically saying its not alive until its out of the womb.

Where have I said such a thing? And how unnecessarily rude of you to accuse me of having some kind of perceptive inferiority.

So with your logic, babies 9 months pregnant and a little late are still ripe for killing. Which is far more barbaric than the 'state' taking the life of a convicted felon who knowingly and unremorsefully murdered/raped/what have you.

See, this is why I didn't want to reply to you last time. Your posts are so full of suppositions and erroneous info that I wonder if it's even worth my time. Let me repeat this for you: I have yet to form a concrete opinion on late-term abortions. And despite the reasoning I gave for being against the death penalty (reasons that you recognized, as seen later), you still paint them in a way that reads "I'm sympathetic to rapists and murderers".

See... with you, the legal system is fallible. Okay, I see that. Fine.

Then why do you persist in misrepresenting me?

But what you don't see, is that the process of a baby's development and birth from the womb, is practically infallible with the exceptions of natural miscarriages or the zygote not implanting on the uterine wall. There are many ways a person might not become a person from fertilization of an egg. But most of them are natural... nature's own checks and balances.

How natural something is, is absolutely irrelevant. Raziaar, you can do better than this.

So your notions of fallibility don't really have any effect on me. The fallibility you speak of is human derived, whereas with babies, it tends to be nature's fallibilities. Abortion at a late stage of development is the exact same thing as an innocent man on death row. Its infallibility, both of which are human. In the case of the death penalty, somehow the innocent man got sentenced to death. In the case of abortion... the human fault is by the person deciding to end the life of the child when the likelihood is, that baby would, if given the chance, finish developing into a healthy boy or girl and be born.

I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me. I'm not seeing any connections you're making, and anything that I can (somewhat) grasp seems to be very poor reasoning.
For the sake of clarification, could you argue this again?

so, undervelped human is not a human, so baby is not a human?

Do you consider a zygote to be human?

Well maybe you should elaborate on your views a little more than just saying 'an unborn baby is not a person'. Because as it stands now, the impression I have gotten from you is that right up until the moment the baby is delivered, it is not a living, sentient, conscious human being.

No, Raziaar. I think I've made my position quite clear. What I'm talking about is stuff like this:

So with your logic, babies 9 months pregnant and a little late are still ripe for killing. Which is far more barbaric than the 'state' taking the life of a convicted felon who knowingly and unremorsefully murdered/raped/what have you.

If you're going to make faulty assumptions as to what my views consist of, and then proceed to pigeonhole me into some kind of morally deranged position, then I'm sorry to say that I'm not going to bother wasting my time with you any more. If I wanted to subject myself to that kind of crap and argue with brick walls, I'd wait for Kerberos to come back 'round again.

 

[ALEXDJ]

Do you consider a zygote to be human?

.

it's not nice to answer a question with another question.

answer stright, is a 1 month old baby a human or not human?

 

[Absinthe]

If you can't see the relevance of my question, then that's your issue.

A one month old baby is human in the sense that it is the product of our species' procreation. On a scale of development though, I would not consider it to be life.

 

[ALEXDJ]

A one month old baby is human in the sense that it is the product of our species' procreation. On a scale of development though, I would not consider it to be life.

are you freaken serios? so, when you were a baby, you did not have a life?

At one month your baby may:
Sensory/ Intellectual
follow or "track" an object with his eyes
Physical
have better neck control and lift his head for a few seconds
Social/Emotional
respond to your voice and stare at your face for increasing periods of time

http://www.enfamil.com/babys_develop/postnatal/b_2_1.html

 

[Absinthe]

are you freaken serios? so, when you were a baby, you did not have a life?

At one month your baby may:
Sensory/ Intellectual
follow or "track" an object with his eyes
Physical
have better neck control and lift his head for a few seconds
Social/Emotional
respond to your voice and stare at your face for increasing periods of time

http://www.enfamil.com/babys_develop/postnatal/b_2_1.html

My mistake. I thought you considered a 1 month old foetus to be a baby, so I guess I misunderstood your question. I very much consider a 1 month old baby to be life.

But then I wonder why you put this question to me. We are not talking about the abortion of infants, and I most certainly have never advocated such a thing. If you have a point, get to it.

 

[Incitatus]

For all those that voted yes, why not adoption?

 

[ALEXDJ]

My mistake. I thought you considered a 1 month old foetus to be a baby, so I guess I misunderstood your question. I very much consider a 1 month old baby to be life.

But then I wonder why you put this question to me. We are not talking about the abortion of infants, and I most certainly have never advocated such a thing. If you have a point, get to it.

because, reletivly speaking, the only difference between fetus and a baby is amound of time pass from the moment of "it"

i hope you can see what i mean

 

[ALEXDJ]

For all those that voted yes, why not adoption?

adoption is a great thing

 

[Absinthe]

because, reletivly speaking, the only difference between fetus and a baby is amound of time pass from the moment of "it"

i hope you can see what i mean

Surgically remove the foetus from the mother and see how well it does.

There is a world of difference between a foetus and an infant. How you can think otherwise astounds me.

 

[el Chi]

adoption is a great thing

Adoption is the only argument that really stumps me.
But then, whilst adoption is great thing, it's also a tremendous ordeal to go through to then simply give up your baby. If you don't believe in abortion and have your baby adopted, then that's an extremely honourable thing to do, but then it's asking an awful lot and abortions being legal IS NOT going to stop the possibility of adoption because not all women will choose to have abortions.
Although from the way some of you talk, legal abortion will lead to women running rampant, getting pregnant and then getting abortions without the bat of an eyelid. It's not true.

 

[Raziaar]

Surgically remove the foetus from the mother and see how well it does.

There is a world of difference between a foetus and an infant. How you can think otherwise astounds me.

Read the following. This is a procedure you support that goes on all the time, and is not a rare occurance AT ALL in terms of abortion. Second to third trimester abortions are rather common.

A Medical Doctor describes the Dilation and Evacuation Procedure

-- Dr. Tony Levatino, M.D.

Imagine for a moment that you are a "pro-choice" obstetrician-gynecologist as I once was. Your patient today is seventeen years old and she is twenty weeks pregnant. At twenty weeks, her uterus is up to her umbilicus and she has been feeling her baby kick for the last two weeks. If you could see her baby, she would be as long as your hand from the top of her head to the bottom of her rump not counting the legs. Your patient is now asleep on an operating room table with her legs in stirrups. Upon entering the room after scrubbing, you dry your hands with a sterile towel and are gowned and gloved by the scrub nurse.

The first task is remove the laminaria that had earlier been placed in the cervix to dilate it sufficiently to allow the procedure you are about to perform. With that accomplished, direct your attention to the surgical instruments arranged on a small table to your right. The first instrument you reach for is a 14-French suction catheter. It is clear plastic and about nine inches long. It has a bore through the center approximately ¾ of an inch in diameter. Picture yourself introducing the catheter through the cervix and instructing the circulating nurse to turn on the suction machine which is connected through clear plastic tubing to the catheter. What you will see is a pale yellow fluid the looks a lot like urine coming through the catheter into a glass bottle on the suction machine. This amniotic fluid surrounded the baby to protect her.

With suction complete, look for your Sopher clamp. This instrument is about thirteen inches long and made of stainless steel. At one end are located jaws about 2 ½ inches long and about ¾ on an inch wide with rows of sharp ridges or teeth. This instrument is for grasping and crushing tissue. When it gets hold of something, it does not let go.

A second trimester D&E abortion is a blind procedure. The baby can be in any orientation or position inside the uterus. Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp and grasping anything you can. At twenty weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard – really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about 4 to 5 inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.

The toughest part of a D&E abortion is extracting the baby’s head. The head of a baby that age is about the size of a plum and is now free floating inside the uterine cavity. You can be pretty sure you have hold of it if the Sopher clamp is spread about as far as your fingers will allow. You will know you have it right when you crush down on the clamp and see a pure white gelatinous material issue from the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. You can then extract the skull pieces. If you have a really bad day like I often did, a little face may come out and stare back at you.

Congratulations! You have just successfully performed a Suction D&E abortion. You just affirmed her right to choose. You just made $600 cash in fifteen minutes.

(Click here to see a medical diagram of the procedure.) --- Raziaar's Note: Click this. Doesn't look like a link but it is.

For more medical information on D&E abortion, see the following texts:

Abortion Practice, by Warren M. Hern, M.D., M.P.H. (1990: Alpenglo Graphics, Inc., 1130 Alpine, Boulder, CO 80304), ISBN 0-9625728-0-2.

Second Trimester Abortion: Perspectives After a Decade of Experience, Edited by Gary S. Berger, William E. Brenner, and Louis G. Keith (1981: Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, PO Box 566, 2501 CN The Hague, The Netherlands and John Wright, PSG, Inc., 545 Great Road, Littleton, MA 01460), ISBN 90-247-2487-2.

Woohoo, for pro-choice in late abortion! It's like your little own ogrish.com experience.



EDIT: Oh. And look. Here's a description of the operation from a website that offers abortion services. Notice how they so cleverly avoid accurate description of what the procedure exactly does. But I guess the gruesomeness of it would turn patients away, eh?

http://www.emmagoldman.com/services/abortion/dilation.htm

Dilation and Evacuation (2nd Trimester)

Dilation and Evacuation or D&E is the term for the surgery used to perform a
second trimester abortion. The surgery is done in two steps:

Step one begins with the dilation (gentle opening) of the cervix. Depending on
the method used the length of the pregnancy, dilation may be completed in a
few minutes, or it may take several hours, or as long as two days. Instruments
used to dilate the cervix may include the use of dilators (long metal rods),
laminaria (medicinally prepared seaweed) that absorb moisture from the body
and gradually open the cervix, or a suppository/tablet called misoprostol, a prostaglandin that helps to cramp the uterus and soften the cervix.

Step two of the procedure involves the evacuation of the pregnancy and
pregnancy tissue. A local anesthetic may be used to numb the cervix. The
uterus is emptied by using a combination of aspiration and evacuation with
forceps. Most women feel menstrual like cramping during step two. Some
women also experience a tugging sensation in the lower abdomen. While the
uterus is returning to its non-pregnant state a woman may continue to
experience cramping.

EDIT 2: This website is *NOT* for those with a weak stomach. This is a page detailing the horrors of abortion, of all kinds. Disregard the fact that the main page of the site is a religious one. As there is no relevance to the fact that it is there. The focus is on abortion, religious views or not.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Abortion is Murder/horror_of_abortion.htm


I was doing some more reading. Found this pleasant tidbit from wikipedia.

Surgical procedure

Since the nature and even the name of the procedure is so widely disputed, both opposing views will be listed with no editorialization or commentary. These descriptions represent only the point-of-view of the author and the organization which provided them.

Note that the Planned Parenthood description describes a different procedure, in which the fetus is dismembered within the mother's uterus before being removed.
[edit]

(Pro-Choice position) Planned Parenthood description

Dilation and Evacuation

Dilation and evacuation (D&E) is performed in two steps.

The first step of a D&E involves cervical preparation (softening and dilation).

The vagina is washed with an antiseptic.

Absorbent dilators may be put into the cervix, where they remain for several hours, sometimes overnight. Misoprostol may also be used to facilitate dilation of the cervix.

During the second step of a D&E

The woman may be given medication to ease pain and/or prevent infection.

A local anesthetic is injected into or near the cervix. General anesthesia can also be used.

The dilators are removed from the cervix.

The fetus and other products of conception are removed from the uterus with surgical instruments and suction curettage. This procedure takes about 10-20 minutes.



(Pro-Life position) National Right to Life description

Partial-Birth Abortion

Abortionists sometimes refer to these or similar types of abortions using obscure, clinical-sounding euphemisms such as "Dilation and Extraction" (D&X), or "intact D&E" (IDE) which mask the realities of how the abortions are actually performed.

This procedure is used to abort women who are 20 to 32 weeks pregnant -- or even later into pregnancy. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist reaches into the uterus, grabs the unborn baby's leg with forceps, and pulls the baby into the birth canal, except for the head, which is deliberately kept just inside the womb. (At this point in a partial-birth abortion, the baby is alive.) Then the abortionist jams scissors into the back of the baby's skull and spreads the tips of the scissors apart to enlarge the wound. After removing the scissors, a suction catheter is inserted into the skull and the baby's brains are sucked out. The collapsed head is then removed from the uterus.

--- Raziaar's note: Here's the procedure done in a little animated image.

 

[el Chi]

Oh. And look. Here's a description of the operation from a website that offers abortion services. Notice how they so cleverly avoid accurate description of what the procedure exactly does. But I guess the gruesomeness of it would turn patients away, eh?

http://www.emmagoldman.com/services/abortion/dilation.htm

Most surgery is unpleasant in the extreme. How does abortion not being any different in those terms so suddenly dispell all opposition to your viewpoint?
It doesn't.
Birth itself is fairly disgusting...

Because that ONE website doesn't go into all the gory details, that suddenly proves you right? No, I'm sorry. It doesn't.
I wouldn't be surprised if people wanting an abortion DIDN'T want all the nitty-gritty details. Not because it might discourage them, but because it's a little intense, especially on top of the traumatic experience of finding out that you're pregnant with a baby you don't feel ready to support properly and the difficult decision of whether or not to have an abortion. If I was going to have surgery done on my bowels, for example, I wouldn't want to know every single detail.
If a woman did want to know the details, it's not as if they'd refuse to tell her in case it scared her away.

We don't, generally speaking, see eye-to-eye, but I do respect you enough not to use the same smug, smart-arse tone you've lavished on that post. It's repellent and detracts from the overall worth of any points you care to make.

And finally, it's difficult to take that jesus-is-savior.com site seriously when it's quite clearly horrendously biased and also features other fabulous articles such as:
"Evolution is a big hoax!"
"It is sad that America's heroes are sodomites"
"Satanism in the Vatican (Hail Mary! Hail Satan!)"
"ALL modern Bible versions are corrupt: NewInternational Version (NIV or, maybe, HIV)"
"Witchcraft"
"Divorce is a sin"
"Beer kills"
"Welcome to reality! What really happened on 9/11"
"Devil's music!" One of the links is for the US Air Force sining God Bless America...
"Say NO to psychiatry"
Separate pages for men and women, and the peculiraly ironic:
"False Religions! Religion is the worst thing that ever happened."

 

[Raziaar]

Most surgery is unpleasant in the extreme. How does abortion not being any different in those terms so suddenly dispell all opposition to your viewpoint?
It doesn't.
Birth itself is fairly disgusting...

Because that ONE website doesn't go into all the gory details, that suddenly proves you right? No, I'm sorry. It doesn't.
I wouldn't be surprised if people wanting an abortion DIDN'T want all the nitty-gritty details. Not because it might discourage them, but because it's a little intense, especially on top of the traumatic experience of finding out that you're pregnant with a baby you don't feel ready to support properly and the difficult decision of whether or not to have an abortion. If I was going to have surgery done on my bowels, for example, I wouldn't want to know every single detail.
If a woman did want to know the details, it's not as if they'd refuse to tell her in case it scared her away.

We don't, generally speaking, see eye-to-eye, but I do respect you enough not to use the same smug, smart-arse tone you've lavished on that post. It's repellent and detracts from the overall worth of any points you care to make.

And finally, it's difficult to take that jesus-is-savior.com site seriously when it's quite clearly horrendously biased and also features other fabulous articles such as:
"Evolution is a big hoax!"
"It is sad that America's heroes are sodomites"
"Satanism in the Vatican (Hail Mary! Hail Satan!)"
"ALL modern Bible versions are corrupt: NewInternational Version (NIV or, maybe, HIV)"
"Witchcraft"
"Divorce is a sin"
"Beer kills"
"Welcome to reality! What really happened on 9/11"
"Devil's music!" One of the links is for the US Air Force sining God Bless America...
"Say NO to psychiatry"
Separate pages for men and women, and the peculiraly ironic:
"False Religions! Religion is the worst thing that ever happened."

I never said anything is dispelled by my viewpoint. Just sharing some information that I wasn't aware of regarding procedures done by clinics etc.. And the 'ONE' website? Oh come on! Do some damn research. Go to their websites. THEY ALL say it. I'd be damn surprised if many teenage mothers and even intelligent, educated women have the slightest of what really goes on besides the vague bullshit they explain while she's laying there with utensils of death ready to eviscerate into pieces the 'lump of flesh' within her.

We don't, generally speaking, see eye-to-eye, but I do respect you enough not to use the same smug, smart-arse tone you've lavished on that post. It's repellent and detracts from the overall worth of any points you care to make.

I don't really care, what you think, okay? I know you don't respect or like me, so don't even pull that one.


And as for the fact that the parentsight for that abortion stuff was religious. Wow. You know. How did I somehow predict that was going to be mentioned? Psychic? No. Cause you're predictable. You'll try to invalidate anything because its religious in nature, even though the 'religious' views from that website have little to do with the medical facts explained on that page, describing in detail the things that happen during an abortion.

If you don't think its true because its by some religious website, then ****ing cross-reference thh stuff and you'll find it checks out with other strictly, purely medical information sources.

 

[baron insig]

Abortion should be allowed jsut done in a more humane why rather than tearing the lil infant apart limb from limb and then crushing its skull to get its head out.

 

[el Chi]

I don't really care, what you think, okay?

Says it all, really.

By the way, contrary to what you may believe, I don't dislike you. Disagreeing and disliking are two different things.

 

[The Monkey]

Abortion should be allowed jsut done in a more humane why rather than tearing the lil infant apart limb from limb and then crushing its skull to get its head out.

It doesn't feel anything. It doesn't matter how you kill it, just the woman is alright... The only problem with crushing its skull is that it sounds discusting afterwards.

 

[Absinthe]

Read the following. This is a procedure you support that goes on all the time, and is not a rare occurance AT ALL in terms of abortion. Second to third trimester abortions are rather common.

Yay! Despite the fact that any surgery is usually unpleasant, I am now going to throw away all practicality and support the banning of abortions because, hey, they sound kinda nasty.

Why do people insist on using appeals to emotion?

Woohoo, for pro-choice in late abortion! It's like your little own ogrish.com experience.

First off, have I not made it clear that I do not have a firm standing on late-term abortions?

Secondly, you can see plenty of executions, some of them of criminals, on ogrish.com. They're unpleasant as well. So, by your logic, we also shouldn't be executing criminals.

EDIT: Oh. And look. Here's a description of the operation from a website that offers abortion services. Notice how they so cleverly avoid accurate description of what the procedure exactly does. But I guess the gruesomeness of it would turn patients away, eh?

Same shit as above.

If the best argument you can put forth is that it seems unpleasant, then you are very far-removed from reality.

Your third link is no different, so it's not worth commenting on.

I don't really care, what you think, okay? I know you don't respect or like me, so don't even pull that one.

Christ, Raziaar. You're better than this. If you don't think El Chi likes or respects you, then you certainly aren't helping matters with that kind of noxious behavior.

I, for one, do respect and like you (if that means anything to you), but what you're posting is only giving me incentive to avoid future debates with you.

And as for the fact that the parentsight for that abortion stuff was religious. Wow. You know. How did I somehow predict that was going to be mentioned? Psychic? No. Cause you're predictable. You'll try to invalidate anything because its religious in nature, even though the 'religious' views from that website have little to do with the medical facts explained on that page, describing in detail the things that happen during an abortion.

If you don't think its true because its by some religious website, then ****ing cross-reference thh stuff and you'll find it checks out with other strictly, purely medical information sources.

The problem with your sources is the same problem you have. Any good points you may have are watered down by your overall vitriolic nature.

And yes, the heavy religious overtones of that site are a factor to consider. The site obviously has an agenda, and will thus display convenient half-truths and miniscule bits of the big picture in order to bring viewers around to its position.