Pope John Paul II dead

kirovman said:
MLK improved a lot of black people's lives due to bringing realisation to the minorities rights.

Ghandi brought independence to India from the British, using Non-violent protests. He was assassinated in the end (can't remember how).
Being British, you can't say Ghandi had no affect on your life. He lead to Indian independence from Britain.

Don't forget the lessons these kind of people brought.
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Martin Luther King was a sane voice for reform which was certainly needed - when there were a lot of people urging the violent struggle. MLK's request for tolerance, patience and non-violence meant a lot of people did not die and the system still got reformed so that the worst forms of overt racism entrenched in public life were removed. Covert racism is still around - but its no longer considered as the 'done thing' in all but some extremist circles.

Ghandi similiarly preached non-violent struggle. He was assassinated by a fellow Indian at close range with a pistol. I cannot now remember who he was or what his deal was, if I did ever know.

The Pope - has done some things I don't agree with. I think he had the opportunity to overturn the whole condom thing and maybe save millions of Catholics in the third world from AIDS. Telling them all to stop having sex is not realistic and just means a lot more people will die.

To his credit, the Pope did staunchly support the Solidarity Movement in Poland - which was the first movement to take on the Soviet client states. In deeply Catholic Poland, the support of the Pope would have been inspirational for the Solidarity members who pushed on and eventually toppled the Soviet government. The rest of the Eastern Europe soviet states soon fell as well. Of course it was not the Pope alone, or even him being the deciding factor, but he was a factor that assisted to 'Let my people Go' as Moses said....
 
I think it's silly to say that it is silly to blame the pope for the aids epidemic, AIDS is mostly spread (in the third world) by prostitutes, I don't know by what logic people think that they are somehow less damned if the commit adultery but don't use a condom. And CAFOD (catholic fund for overseas development) are handing out condoms despite the vatican, I think this is a good thing. The pope has to set out what is God's ideal, in life people fall short of that ideal, sometimes that ideal is practicly impossible to reach, that is why Jesus had to die for us, but God's Ideal never changes, you can't change it just because it's easier.
 
I think it's silly to say that it is silly to blame the pope for the aids epidemic, AIDS is mostly spread (in the third world) by prostitutes
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I don't blame the Pope for the AIDS epidemic - never did I say this. Just that he had the opportunity to save millions of Catholics from AIDS by saying, condoms are OK. I don't think it is so diametrically opposed to the Church's teachings, as other christian movements seem to have no problem with them.

As for AIDS being primarily spread by prostitutes - do you have a source for this? And if so - condoms should still be worn.
 
Da Funkey Gibbon said:
AIDS is mostly spread (in the third world) by prostitutes, I don't know by what logic people think that they are somehow less damned if the commit adultery but don't use a condom. .
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"There is extensive literature describing the impact of malnutrition on the function and the structure of the immune system in people in Africa (Al-Bayati, 1999). This information clearly demonstrates that AIDS in Africa is more likely to be caused by starvation than by HIV {HIV being the communicable disease}."

- World Health Organization


full doc - halfway down

the jist of it
 
Interesting, well that cerainly clears the popes name, he is probably the first pope to give a lot of attention to the plight of those in the third world.

I still think my statement is true though, just change AIDS for HIV.
 
The pope being against condoms couldn't logically do that.

Those who are heeding the words of the Vatican and adhering to beliefs aren't going to be doing the sexual things that spread AIDS, obviously.

And also the link Stern gave, too. Church tries to feed people and sets up humanitarian missions, they help curtail it there.
 
Yes it's a real tribute to his strength and fighting spirit that he isn't dead yet, the docters originally gave him untill 2am, it's now 6 am and he still isn't dead yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he kept fighting for a while longer.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-Dylan Thomas

A beautiful poem and amazingly relavent.
 
These were great men. They lived larger than their lives, I respect that. They are actual heroes, and they made difference to the world. It may not have affected us that much, but its not always about us. I'm Christian and I won't be grieving if ever the Pope dies, its just that people end at a certain time and I think his time has come.
Having thoughts about it Im sure he's going to a better place, than here living a life with tubes and machinery keeping him alive. In my point of view there's more reason to be happy in his death with such strong faith than hardly being alive.
 
I disagree, I think death is never a good thing and while I agree that being kept alive by machines I also think that our earthly life is very percious and we should always be looking do as much good in it as we possibly can while we still have it. We only get one, after all.
 
Da Funkey Gibbon said:
I still think my statement is true though, just change AIDS for HIV.
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which would be prevented with a condom
 
What I meant is that for a man of strong faith, death is never the end. And yes life is very much indeed precious. But living it through the help of machinery is just terrible. That's what they usually call it "alive but living like a vegetable."
 
I just hope he doesn't end up slipping into a coma, then the whole thing would end up being much more drawn out and painful.
 
Da Funkey Gibbon said:
Or with chastity.

But we can't have outdated dogma like that nowerdays can we, nono.
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:upstare: that's completely unrealistic ...you've never had premarital sex?
 
It's not completely unrealistic. It's a personal choice, like atheism.
 
a personal choice that's usually associated with a faith group. Not everyone is christian

it's funny how at a young age being a virgin is considered being chaste or making a wise choice, yet someone who's older is seen as a social misfit ...how many 30 yr olds would admit to being a virgin?
 
CptStern said:
a personal choice that's usually associated with a faith group. Not everyone is christian

it's funny how at a young age being a virgin is considered being chaste or making a wise choice, yet someone who's older is seen as a social misfit ...how many 30 yr olds would admit to being a virgin?
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But those who aren't Catholic wouldn't be worrying about what the pope thinks on that then.

It's just that it's foolish for people to get angry about that. People not using condoms because the pope is against them aren't going to be having pre marital sex anyway.

A lot of people choose abstinence anyway, not necessarily for religion, but they wait for a meaningful relationship (not always marriage but at least a loving relationship which means STD's wouldn't be an issue and would be known about)
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
But those who aren't Catholic wouldn't be worrying about what the pope thinks on that then.
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we were discussing aids in africa

RakuraiTenjin said:
It's just that it's foolish for people to get angry about that. People not using condoms because the pope is against them aren't going to be having pre marital sex anyway.
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which is a relatively small minority in comparison to catholics who dont follow the the vaticans decrees to the letter.

RakuraiTenjin said:
A lot of people choose abstinence anyway, not necessarily for religion, but they wait for a meaningful relationship (not always marriage but at least a loving relationship which means STD's wouldn't be an issue and would be known about)
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a lot of people? there's always a chance of contracting an std even if it's your first time (partner could have std) not to mention the very good chance of getting pregnant.
 
CptStern said:
we were discussing aids in africa
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Yes. I don't think the pope being against condoms was a factor in it increasing. I think being against pre marital sex helped decrease HIV/AIDS among practicing catholics. Non catholics aren't going to worry about what the pope has to say so it doesn't affect them.

CptStern said:
which is a relatively small minority in comparison to catholics who dont follow the the vaticans decrees to the letter.
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Well, I mean geeze. If they're following that one they're not going to breaking the sex one. No one's going to have sex but not wear the condom because to them it's wrong.

CptStern said:
a lot of people? there's always a chance of contracting an std even if it's your first time (partner could have std) not to mention the very good chance of getting pregnant.
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Of course, but it's way different from a promiscuous person going around, you know that :p
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Yes. I don't think the pope being against condoms was a factor in it increasing. I think being against pre marital sex helped decrease HIV/AIDS among practicing catholics. Non catholics aren't going to worry about what the pope has to say so it doesn't affect them.
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there's no one cause of HIV in africa ...condoms or at least the reversal of the condomn issue will go a long way in helping prevent stds. There's 117 million catholics in africa alone


RakuraiTenjin said:
Well, I mean geeze. If they're following that one they're not going to breaking the sex one. No one's going to have sex but not wear the condom because to them it's wrong.
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you're christian, it's not the same thing, most catholics dont believe in abstinence ...catholicism is less strict than most christian religions. It's really irresponsible to ask the worlds catholic youth that the only method of prevention is abstinence


RakuraiTenjin said:
Of course, but it's way different from a promiscuous person going around, you know that :p
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the risk is there regarless ..the risk of pregnancy is even greater


Da Funkey Gibbon said:
Nope, and don't intend to.
Though to be fair I am 16.
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sorry but you're not the norm ...I mean how many opportunities could you possibly have had? (no offense ..it's the age thing). What if you dont find "mrs right"? will you go to your grave a virgin?
 
the church is asking to ban abortions and contraceptives together?

why tho? its peoples choice..? i hate the way the church tries to use its power to do silly things like this.,
 
CptStern said:
there's no one cause of HIV in africa ...condoms or at least the reversal of the condomn issue will go a long way in helping prevent stds. There's 117 million catholics in africa alone
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Right, but it's a big factor, it helps to help stop HIV sexual spread.

CptStern said:
you're christian, it's not the same thing, most catholics dont believe in abstinence ...catholicism is less strict than most christian religions. It's really irresponsible to ask the worlds catholic youth that the only method of prevention is abstinence
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I'm Catholic and as far as I know, at least us here and in any of my past RE classes, it's stressed to stay abstinent (if it's brought up. We usually don't focus on sexuality issues as much I'd suppose as much as most Baptists, etc)

CptStern said:
the risk is there regarless ..the risk of pregnancy is even greater
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Right.

CptStern said:
sorry but you're not the norm ...I mean how many opportunities could you possibly have had? (no offense ..it's the age thing). What if you dont find "mrs right"? will you go to your grave a virgin?
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None taken, hehe, but I have had a couple of chances, and have passed up on them (and nothing to do with the girl either, just didn't feel it's right.) I'm not worried about having sex, it's something I'll do to express love when I'm with my partner. If I end up 35 and unmarried you're right, I'll probably have had sex unmarried by then, there's temptation. But it'll still be with someone special.
 
CptStern said:
sorry but you're not the norm ...I mean how many opportunities could you possibly have had? (no offense ..it's the age thing). What if you dont find "mrs right"? will you go to your grave a virgin?
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I know im not the norm, and I won't really mind if I do go to my grave a virgin, better that then I throw away my chastity for no productive reason.

Anyway I have faith that the Lord will guide me :).
 
I'm not Catholic but I can still respect his contributions to the world. Many of you seem content to say he's just a dying old man but thats really not fair or true. He's served his church well, and the world well, and I respect him for it. Sad to see him go.

edit: meh, sucks. :x
 
Yup he's gone....sad to see a fellow human being go but, that's just what happens
 
rest in peace.

they're thinking about replacing him with a 78 year old bishop or something...
 
I was born in catholic family, I saw the pope the two times he visited my country, even when I am not a very religious man, there was something about this pope, he really had this benevolent "aura" you could sense, I could feel realy peace when I was near this man.
I am sad that he passed away, although it was for the best, he was old and suffering because of his decease.
His death is a lost for the humanity, no matter what religion you are, he did work a lot for peace and union between diferent religions and countries.
Rest in peace beloved pope, I will never forget you. :(
 
rAdIOhEaD said:
I am sad that he passed away, although it was for the best, he was old and suffering because of his decease.
His death is a lost for the humanity, no matter what religion you are, he did work a lot for peace and union between diferent religions and countries.
Rest in peace beloved pope, I will never forget you. :(
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Excellent post sir.
 
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