Real vid of an Apache attack *explicit*

[CokeLite]

The clip was disturbing, yes... but not "outrageous" and/or "mean". Those soldiers took the risk of going out there to fight and they paid the price. I only read a few pages into this thread but JoetheCanuk seems to have a misguided view of war. This clip shows just one apache doing its job. How many other apaches do you think were in the country doing the same exact thing as that one, mabye even at that same time? There would be no way to transport the amount of wounded that would be left behind and more then likely it would be days or even weeks before they were gotten to. And the "What if those were not soldiers" idea is shot down solely because of the tank they were hanging around and the RPG the guy was carrying.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

The clip was disturbing, yes... but not "outrageous" and/or "mean". Those soldiers took the risk of going out there to fight and they paid the price. I only read a few pages into this thread but JoetheCanuk seems to have a misguided view of war. This clip shows just one apache doing its job. How many other apaches do you think were in the country doing the same exact thing as that one, mabye even at that same time? There would be no way to transport the amount of wounded that would be left behind and more then likely it would be days or even weeks before they were gotten to. And the "What if those were not soldiers" idea is shot down solely because of the tank they were hanging around and the RPG the guy was carrying.

there was a tank? i missed that. if you read the report (first link), it never explicitly states that they had an RPG, it just says a "cylindrical device". it also indicates that there was military intelligence about these particular 3 guys, but of course doesn't say anything specific. generally, i can't say i have a problem with what happened in the context of warfare, but i certainly have some concerns about who these people actually where and what they were doing (see my earlier posts).

 

[Vigilante]

All i can say is what the hell is this guys problem, hes going to become the next jeffrey dalmer

 

[CokeLite]

there was a tank? i missed that. if you read the report (first link), it never explicitly states that they had an RPG, it just says a "cylindrical device". it also indicates that there was military intelligence about these particular 3 guys, but of course doesn't say anything specific. generally, i can't say i have a problem with what happened in the context of warfare, but i certainly have some concerns about who these people actually where and what they were doing (see my earlier posts).

What else kind of cylindrical device could it be? A bong? Pretty wierd time to get high with a war going on and stuff. What else could they have been doing? Either these people were A) Part of the Iraqi army and therefore the enemy, or B) A bunch of complete udder morrons. Either or they got what they deserved.

 

[fizzlephox]

If people are udder morons, that's no reason to condemn them to death. Life has a lot more value than people will ever give it in times of war, especially in a foreign land that is divided from us by culture as well as distance.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

It wasn't aimed at Markman himself, but to all the cowards who suck off the faith off of American citizens, just earn a free degree. Then, they decide they don't want to go to war - One of the very obligations a soldier is inclined to fulfill; Not by expectancy only, but by contract as well.

I apologize to all whom I offended. I shouldn't have been so rash in my posting, and I admit I went over the line. I am sorry to all of you. I too have a respect for life, but it is that respect that makes me so angry at these horrible, horrible monsters. They raped, murdered, and pillaged the land of the Iraqi people. They have no respect for human life, yet the soldiers of my country who give theirs do not receive as much respect from you people as Saddam's demons.

For my feelings toward that, I will not apologize. My fallen country men deserve to be recognized, along with the fighters from Britain, Australia, and any other nation who's lost soldiers.

 

[fizzlephox]

Almost every nation in the world's lost soldiers. They've all lost brave people who fight for their country and their family. Even Iraq, although you could say they're misguided they are not cowards. They are risking death to do what they think is best for their country. The American Revolutionary Soldiers used guerilla tactics that were considered just as cowardly and heinous by the British people of that time. Guerilla tactics have been used by many countries throughout history. The only difference is that one man's terrorist/insurgent (by terrorist I mean people using unconvential warfare on enemy soldiers not civilians) is another man's freedom fighter.

And the commanding officers aren't always right about things in warfare. Mylai Massacre. A U.S. helicopter pilot disobeyed orders in the name of what is good and right (I don't think it's in this particular article on the subject). His career was destroyed, but I doubt if he had gone ahead and let the massacre continue further his mental state would probably not let him enjoy his career.

 

[Korgoth]

Are you a man of faith Ghostvalkyrie? A Christian by chance? (serious question) I don't think anyone respects saddam, let alone gives him more respect than the average American soldier. I do think, some respect human life. Be it the life of a scum bag, a murderer, a thief, or a mental patient. Everyone deserves the right to live, and if you are a man of faith then you should understand this philosophy. Do unto others, etc. etc. Of course there are devils, but Jesus said to love everyone right? I don't know, I'm not really a religous person, I do believe in a creator, I just don't know his name yet. (just a thought )

 

[Lil' Timmy]

not to be a tool guys, but it's "utter" not "udder", look them up
just fyi (so you can trick people into thinking you're smart like i sometimes do :thumbs: )

 

[fizzlephox]

I knew that, one belongs to a cow. I meant to put parentheses on it to reflect using udder to describe some as a moron.

 

[Korgoth]

MMMmmm milk, and timmy your not foolin' anyone On topic, I didn't watch the video, as I have no desire to see anyone die. I did read the article. And unless it was an extremely bias view of what happened, it sounded to me like they did what they had to do for security reasons. [They probably] saved U.S. soldiers lives, or innocent Iraqis' from a terror attack.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Almost every nation in the world's lost soldiers. They've all lost brave people who fight for their country and their family. Even Iraq, although you could say they're misguided they are not cowards. They are risking death to do what they think is best for their country. The American Revolutionary Soldiers used guerilla tactics that were considered just as cowardly and heinous by the British people of that time. Guerilla tactics have been used by many countries throughout history. The only difference is that one man's terrorist/insurgent (by terrorist I mean people using unconvential warfare on enemy soldiers not civilians) is another man's freedom fighter.

And the commanding officers aren't always right about things in warfare. Mylai Massacre. A U.S. helicopter pilot disobeyed orders in the name of what is good and right (I don't think it's in this particular article on the subject). His career was destroyed, but I doubt if he had gone ahead and let the massacre continue further his mental state would probably not let him enjoy his career.

Who said anything talking about Guerilla tactics?
I was talking about people joining military for money, and not fpr the well-being of the country,...especially ones who then refuse to do their duties. I don't care whether or not anyone uses Guerilla tactics. I was also addressing how a lot of you don't care about the fallen soldiers from the Coalition, but how you sympathize with the dead and/or wounded Republic Guards/Insurgents.

BTW: A few weeks ago I heard about "freedom fighters" using School Children as human shields. But, seeing as the US doesn't care about civilian life, we went crazy and decided to not even wound any of the children and kill 11 of the "freedom fighters". I guess the US likes going out of it's way for things it doesn't care about. When, yet, the Iraqis go out of their way to put the lives of those they're supposedly fighting in danger. Hmmm...Sounds like Terrorists mischief to me.

 

[qckbeam]

People are people, I believe we all sympathize and feel for the fallen in the Coalition probably more so than the Republic guards, I know I do. We are just trying to view this from both sides Ghost. They may be the enemy in this war, but they are still human, they aren't things and shouldn't be treated or thought of as such.

 

[gh0st]

yeah people think that they can join the army and get a free ride through life. assholes. mooching off the government, thinking that they can sit on their ass and use their m16 as nothing more than an expensive bong (props to self for platoon reference).

anywaaaay. i think that killing those soldiers was a good thing. the united states generally shoots to maim (thus our cartridge) but not every situation can the enemy be captured - and frankly i would rather 10000 iraqi soldiers die than one of ours. no way i would risk our men and women unecessarily. jon makes interesting points, though i suspect if it were a canadian apache (or whatever canadians use - birds or something i suspect) that he would feel much differently. if it were a canadian apache in danger of being shot down, their crews captured and possibly killed. the remnants of saddams regime arent under 1 power, so you never know what could happen to pow's. just my opinion, they understood the risks of war and died in it. no different than a us soldier killing an axis in ww2. war is war, and they paid the ultimate price.

 

[qckbeam]

I have to say that I don't see what's so awful about wanting to join the military because of the benefits that can come along with it. Not everyone is born a fighter, and not everyone is quite as patriotic as you gh0st (not an insult, please don't take it as such), but many have nothing else to turn to. It's just their lot in life. One problem you seem to have gh0st is generalizing people. Not EVERYONE who joins up in the military because of the benefits is an asshole, some just have no other choice.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I have to say that I don't see what's so awful about wanting to join the military because of the benefits that can come along with it. Not everyone is born a fighter, and not everyone is quite as patriotic as you gh0st (not an insult, please don't take it as such), but many have nothing else to turn to. It's just their lot in life. One problem you seem to have gh0st is generalizing people. Not EVERYONE who joins up in the military because of the benefits is an asshole, some just have no other choice.

What's so aweful about going to work, and doing nothing your boss tells you to?
What's so aweful about telling someone you'll do one thing, then turn around and lie? If they want to mooch, they'd better be ready to fulfill their obligations. When you join the military, you shouldn't tuck tail and run. I couldn't stand it how those three Marines tried to sue the President for sending them to war, which they refused to go, too. I also wanted to beat the shit out of that man who lobbed the grenade in his commanding officers tent, killing some 14 or 17 soldiers. How rediculous, you refuse to kill the enemy - So, you're going to kill your commanding officer, and fellow soldiers. That's what I see in Marksman. Sorry, Marksman, but you'd better not expect a free ride. I'm very willing to bet you'll have to earn your keep, eventually.

 

[qckbeam]

If they want to mooch, they'd better be ready to fulfill their obligations. When you join the military, you shouldn't tuck tail and run. I couldn't stand it how those three Marines tried to sue the President for sending them to war, which they refused to go, too. I also wanted to beat the shit out of that man who lobbed the grenade in his commanding officers tent, killing some 14 or 17 soldiers. How rediculous, you refuse to kill the enemy - So, you're going to kill your commanding officer, a fellow soldier. That's what I see in Marksman. Sorry, Marksman, but you'd better not expect a free ride. I'm very willing to be you'll have to earn your keep eventually.

Oh yes, I agree with you on those points. If you're going to join, be ready when the call to arms comes. It's a risk you have to be willing to take before you join, otherwise don't. I thought you were talking about how awful the principle of joining the military becasue of the benefits, rather than just joining out of patriotism, was.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Oh yes, I agree with you on those points. If you're going to join, be ready when the call to arms comes. It's a risk you have to be willing to take before you join, otherwise don't.

That's all I'm saying.
I admit my first incarnation of the message was brutal, but I was only trying to get that one point across to Marksman, and anyone else willing to do what he was talking about doing. I love my country, and I don't want to share a bunks with someone who's going to cry foul when it's their turn to serve.

 

[Korgoth]

Well its pretty simple really. If all you want is a free ride, don't join the military. By joining the armed service your contractually obligated to do certain things, wether you want to or not. You can't compare it to a civillian job though, because you could choose not to do anything at work and probably get away with it for a while, if you disobey orders in the service you go to jail (right?) I think a lot of people joined during peace time and didn't expect to get thrown into combat. It is their fault though, they should have read the contract. In any case, I hardly think completing basic training would be mooching

 

[waedoe]

Guys guys. i really hope we all know something. Its human instinct to live. what ever we say is irrelevant untill, we see the face of battle. i rly doubt your going to let your enemy kill you let alone one of your fellow brothers. We didnt go to iraq to give abdula a ak-47 for christmas, we went thier to shove our American designed M-16's up some baathist rectum.

 

[qckbeam]

which branch are you going to join ghostValkyrie?

 

[waedoe]

What else kind of cylindrical device could it be? A bong? Pretty wierd time to get high with a war going on and stuff. What else could they have been doing? Either these people were A) Part of the Iraqi army and therefore the enemy, or B) A bunch of complete udder morrons. Either or they got what they deserved.

could have been a huge vibrating device :| you know those bathists.

 

[waedoe]

Look at Lil'Timmy's avatar, it just emenates the love (not a perverted kind of love, a pure and noble love that only a child posesses) and warmth between a child and his best friend. I'm gonna go cry.

a stuffed animal and a young boy.... where could this lead... timmy omg J/K

 

[Korgoth]

Yeah i liked timmy's old avatar better, it was a very neutral avatar. This one is almost to warm, yet its snowing. Hmmm, I think timmy's avatar should be a plus symbol (black). The addition of nothing is the subtraction of ones self.

 

[waedoe]

Why can't people just look at them as "people", not just the "enemy". Many of these people see us as the invaders, which we are. We invaded Iraq, they didn't invade us. Also many see us as liberators who saved them from a cruel dictator, which we also did. Bothe these viewpoints can be justified by an Iraqi.

The soldiers were justified in what they did. I don't like the whole thing this war was to begin with, premptive. With premptive warfare you can justify lots of things. China for example "Those Americans have a huge army and nuclear weapons aimed at us, they wouldn't have second thoughts about harming us if they could get the chance, we need to declare premptive war on them". But that won't happen because that would mean nuclear war and we'd all die except those who lived in Africa and South America. But China isn't the world power yet, it will be in about twenty years. When it is Americans are gonna have to see things from a whole new perspective.

people like you that allow terrorism to go on. Oh yeah he may have killed 13 kids in his old village, but he sure hasnt done ne thing bad since then. Hes joined the local terror camps and is going to be a mort for allah. < how can you allow that to not be the enemy.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

which branch are you going to join ghostValkyrie?

I'm already in the NAVY.
I haven't been to the joke of a Boot Camp, but I am officially Govt. property.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

what's all this concern over my avatar??? jeebus...

a stuffed animal and a young boy.... where could this lead... timmy omg J/K

why do you think it's a "stuffed" animal??? hahah.. oh no, i'm going to hell (of course gh0st and waedoe already knew that)

 

[JonTheCanuck]

i guess either one of us could be right depending on the situation. Considering that this may be going on all over iraq, i guess it would be impossible to keep up with every wounded soldier and perhaps they took the right course. But theres also the possibility their med-evac wasn't being used and could've helped, who knows. Bah g2g.

 

[Varg|Hund]

people like you that allow terrorism to go on. Oh yeah he may have killed 13 kids in his old village, but he sure hasnt done ne thing bad since then. Hes joined the local terror camps and is going to be a mort for allah. < how can you allow that to not be the enemy.

That's not true. All Iraqi soldiers aren't heartless, terrorist, killing machines, y'know.
Most of them are good and honest people, whose only crime is to stand up and defend their country against an illegal invasion. Wouldn't you defend your country if someone invaded it, bombing your villages and killing your friends? You would, wouldn't you? So why shouldn't the iraqis do the same?

 

[Cooper]

Well, I was going to post more reasons why I thought the Iraqi would be dead before a medic reached him but the discussion sort of got away from that so I'll just leave it be.

However, here are my own personal beliefs. First, if my country is invaded I will be on the frontline there isn't a doubt in my mind about that. I plan on serving my time in the military as well in a few years. Yes I am a patriot, some of you guys like to label patriots and patriotism as something bad. Only thing I can say to that is that you should broaden(sp?) your own view. Just because someone loves their country doesn't mean there going to blindy follow it. It just means they love their country. So I would appreciate it if the patriot bashing would go away. Second off, if Britian's people were being slaughtered then yes I would give my life to protect them. Same for the Iraqis or any other people. The whole reason I was for the war is because I wanted to see the Iraqi people get a better life then what they had.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

The whole reason I was for the war is because I wanted to see the Iraqi people get a better life then what they had.

Same here.

 

[MrWhite]

Same here.

I'm way to tired for this right now actually... baaaad acid trip today.

See... its not patriotism thats the problem... its a kind of nationalism. Pride for ones country is good... too much, and its not good.

There are always more effective ways to do things., and if we just respect people from the start, there would have been no oppresion from saddam, thus no war.

but as I said... thats an idealistic world and... well you can just read my last post.

you care alot about your country, and I beleive you do see that they are people, fighting for the same things as us... just I think you may have gotten a bit caught up in the nationalism of it all when you said those things so harshly.

Isn't it funny how on these forums, usually whenever people fight in large discussions it ends in freindly small talk?

Why I guess we're just highly evolved

 

[Texter]

The Apache guys took out a f@cking tractor with a plow that probably broke down in a field. The long white thing is a hot exhaust pipe. You won't plow in daytime because it's frigging hot out there ( I assume it's a nighttime vid, correct me if I'm wrong, not going to read everything again).
The guy running towards it was skipping like a schoolgirl so he couldn't have been older than 17 or so. The 2nd guy was sitting on top of the tractor and got off after his kid or nephew arrived.
The 3rd guy was almost definitely never hit by .30 rounds. The first time he was hit (probably also in the face) by shrapnel from the large truck and the second time they only fired on the 2nd truck. The shooter couldn't see the guy through the smoke so my guess is that guy passed out after the 2nd explosion and then bled to death.
The Apache pilots were much too rash in their threat assessment and in my opinion it was a faulty judgement in the field and a result of, probably, warparanoia. It only makes clear that all those militiamen in Iraq should stop their stupid attacks because too many innocent bystanders are hit this way "by" both sides.

I can't believe you guys didn't notice all of this. A dutch Apache pilot would have been court marshalled for this and definitely kept on the ground. Yes...Europeans can have Apaches too, and our pilots are trained in the US. And after that they start playing with them near my house (and above it).

Another edit: leave out the broke down part...it was just a kid relieving his dad in the field...that's what it looks like to me.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I thought it was a tractor/harvistor thing. But I didn't want to say in case I was wrong and looked stupid. Sad I know.

If thats the case, allmost all of my respect for those pilots has vanished. Sorry, but it has..

 

[Lil' Timmy]

marksman, you have to consider/understand that the pilots apparently had specific intel on who these guys were and what they were up to. just because he was on a tractor, doesn't mean he wasn't in the act of carrying out some action against the 'coalition' troops.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

True Timmy. Still makes me feel bad when I don't know the truth and that the above is one posibility.

I honestly wish I had not watched the video. The violence doesn't affect me anymore but knowing that its real people does have an effect. If that makes any sence. I basically mean I don't flinch but I feel bad.

 

[Texter]

QUOTE=Lil' Timmy]marksman, you have to consider/understand that the pilots apparently had specific intel on who these guys were and what they were up to. just because he was on a tractor, doesn't mean he wasn't in the act of carrying out some action against the 'coalition' troops.[/QUOTE]

Do YOU expect the US army to admit that they fired upon some unsuspecting, innocent civilians with no reason whatsoever, using a big effing cannon that can level small villages? There is no proof in this video that anything else was happening than shown. It's good footage of an Apache in the field at a field...and it was probably only released to see how much they can let people believe by making up a story to go with it.
To me this looks like a messup out of hundreds of genuine targets that were hit. The guy had already plowed 5 lanes on this side of the road for crying out loud. He was walking there and taking the time taking off his gloves. That's the coolest Hollywood terrorist I've ever seen. Maybe they hit him at his regular dayjob because blowing people up doesn't pay well. That would make it a coldblooded execution by the way...

 

[spookymooky]

just to clear some stuff up in the video:
I'm pretty sure, after watching it blown up, that the "White flag" is something the guy is unloading from the truck.
Also, The gunner shoots the truck, not the crawling guy. After the explosion, you can still see his body a through the smoke.

 

[A2597]

OK, I have yet to watch this vid, but I have one BIG gripe with you multiple people...

Many here seem to thing we need to go back to the days where wars were hand to hand combat, because then there wouldn't be war.

WTFH ARE YOU THINKING?!? From what, 12,000 BC until 1914 wars were fought this way...yes, WARS WERE FOUGHT WITH HAND TO HAND COMBAT. Just because the soldiers could SEE eachother doesn't mean they won't KILL eatchother. For petes sake people just LOOK at history for a moment. Impersonal war is a NEW thing.
Your telling me you want to go back to waving axes and swords, where you get doused in blood, the stench of decay is all around you for hours, and after the battle is over you ram your sword into the dieing bodies of your foes to make certiain they don't get up and stab you in the back.

Yea, that is a whole lot ****ing better then what war is now.

Oh, and as to how calm the soldiers are, they HAVE to be. For one thing, thinking about what your doing would mean you would either go insane or die because you hesitated. As for this stupid idea of "Don't kill him, someone might be able to get there and save him!"

first off, he's the enemy. Saddam is GONE. he is NOT being forced to be there, he is there because he WANTS to kill Americans. Second, its the middle of the DESERT people! There is NO ONE THERE TO HELP HIM. what? you expect the Apache to land, the pilot to walk over, praying the guy doesn't have a gun in hand, and proform CPR for 8 hours while a med unit arrives? Sure, whatever. Even if the guy survives, and then is let loose a month from now, the first thing he'll do is get a gun and start shooting americans again.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Erm, they were calm, which means they could actually make a choice whether to kill him or not....


And giveing him a chance might not have involved going down and giving CPR....

Just not shooting him again and again to make sure might have given him a chance.
But anyway, nobody here knows enough to make any kind of judgment. Its all speculation. In my opinion.......




Oh and just to clarify...
He could have been forced to fight. If you don't thinks thats a posibility then shut up now. He might also be sooo filled with propaganda that he does'nt know what to believe.
And one more thing. How do you know where that takes place..... and how there is no one near by to help.

Stop trying to form opinions from bullshit.

Other than that a perfectly valid post.