Religion:The stupidest thing invented by mankind?

[Tr0n]

Let me butt in for a moment and unequivocally state that this is crap.

If you're going to consider the Big Bang a "god", then you need explain why it's deserving of the title. What makes it more than just the Big Bang? What does calling it "god" communicate? Is there anything remotely informative in doing as such?

It just waters down the term "god" into meaninglessness. My wall is God. My shoe is God. Air is God. Combustion is God. They may very well be, but then I don't see anything meaningful, substantial, or relevant coming from the classification of such things, much less their worship.

Because it created the universe.

Others have suggested that the several logical and philosophical arguments for the existence of God miss the point. The word God has a meaning in human culture and history that does not correspond to the beings whose necessity is proven by such arguments, assuming they are valid proofs. The real question is not whether a "most perfect being" or an "uncaused first cause" exist; the real question is whether Yahweh or Vishnu or Zeus, or some other deity of attested human religion, exists, and if so which deity. The proofs do not resolve that issue. Blaise Pascal suggested this objection in his Pensées when he wrote "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — not the god of the philosophers!", see also Pascal's wager.

Some Christians note that the Christian faith teaches salvation is by faith, and that faith is reliance upon the faithfulness of God, which has little to do with the believer's ability to comprehend that in which he trusts. In other words, if Christian theology is true, then God's existence can never be demonstrated, either by empirical means or by philosophical argument. The most extreme example of this position is called fideism, which holds that faith is simply the will to believe, and argues that if God's existence were rationally demonstrable, faith in His existence would become superfluous. In The Justification of Knowledge, the Calvinist theologian Robert L. Reymond argues that believers should not attempt to prove the existence of God. Since he believes all such proofs are fundamentally unsound, believers should not place their confidence in them, much less resort to them in discussions with non-believers; rather, they should accept the content of revelation by faith. Reymond's position is similar to that of his mentor, Gordon Clark, which holds that all worldviews are based on certain unprovable first premises (or, axioms), and therefore are ultimately unprovable. The Christian theist therefore must simply choose to start with Christianity rather than anything else, by an unreasoned "leap of faith". This position is also sometimes called Presuppositional apologetics, but should not be confused with the Van Tillian variety discussed above.

An intermediate position is that of Alvin Plantinga who holds that a specific form of modal logic and an appeal to world-indexed properties render belief in the existence of God rational and justified, even though the existence of God cannot be demonstrated. Plantinga equates knowledge of God's existence with kinds of knowledge that are rational but do not proceed through demonstration, such as sensory knowledge.

People can cast judgment on my smoking all I want. I accept the risks of my addiction. Nor do I defend my smoking as much as I defend my right to smoke.

The difference is that I recognize the shallow, dangerous nature of my habit. I couldn't care, but I recognize it nonetheless. You, however, just sort of dismiss or ignore much of the argumentation heading your way and act as if the notion of your god is somehow still valid.

You cwazy druggie. ^_^ Actually I want some mary jane right now....

 

[Absinthe]

Except for the fact that my religion is not shallow nor dangerous to my physical body, right?

Right. As long as i'm not hurting anybody or hurting myself, mentally or physically, i'm fine. And i'm doing neither.

I would argue it would apply more to your mind. And that's not so much because of your belief in God. It would be more due to the bizarre logic-warping you have to fall back on in order to feel it's valid.

 

[Absinthe]

Because it created the universe.

This still doesn't offer up a reason to term it as "god", at least not in any definition of the word I've come across. Call it an occurence, an event, a force, or a power, if you want. The Big Bang fits well within the boundaries of those things.

Perhaps it's more due to the fact that "god" is generally such a varied, albeit ill-defined concept. Either way though, there's a shortcoming somewhere in that relationship.

 

[Raziaar]

I would argue it would apply more to your mind. And that's not so much because of your belief in God. It would be more due to the bizarre logic-warping you have to fall back on in order to feel it's valid.

It's not like my bizarre logic-warping applies to other things. Therefore it does not negatively hinder me.

 

[A True Canadian]

How come you edited out the other thing you said?

I had second thoughts. I didn't think the quotes comparison was as ironic as I first thought it was.

Except I'm well aware of the effects my smoking has on me and why I do it. I don't kid myself into thinking otherwise. Got any other witty gems?

No bad, huh? :E

Please point out the relevance these posts have to each other, as well as any similarities that warrant a comparison. Or are you just throwing quotes together and hoping an argument will form out of thin air?

Raziaar understands what I was originally trying to get at:

I didn't want it to start an argument, no. I just found it funny you defending something like smoking, something you obviously do of your own free will, and don't want people to cast judgement on you... despite the harm it obviously does to your body. Very similiar to your argument against me, in how my religion is injust and causes me harm, despite it being something that I do entirely of my own free will. Very different things, same situation.

 

[colson]

That just pisses me off. 'Iraq same shit, different pile'. Have you BEEN to Iraq? Youre suggesting they have nothing better to do than kill innocent people? Personally i lived in the Middle East for 4 years. Muslims are THE nicest peope i have EVER met, and ive been all over the world.

If the Bible said youd go to heaven no matter what, would you think it was so bad to kill people? Youre just looking at it from another religious belief. The Bible doesnt say anything along those lines, but the Muslims have been taught different. You cant judge people on their beliefs and teachings. Youd get the same reaction about Christians if they were taught there was no such thing as 'Hell'.

Anyway, i dont want to start a flame war. I dont believe in Religion at all, but i DO believe people need something to believe IN. Its what keeps us sane.

What I mean by "same shit, different pile" is that it is another war caused by conflicting religions that gets lots of coverage from the media. Sorry if I've mistaken but I have been lead to believe Bush and most Americans are Christians hence the "In god we trust" on there money and that the Iraqi people that they are fighting are Muslim. So to say that it is different doesn't make sense because it is a religious war masked by "The war on terrorism".

 

[Raziaar]

Except for one fact. It's not a religious war. People are claiming the reason America is at war in Iraq is because of oil, not religion.

 

[Absinthe]

It's not like my bizarre logic-warping applies to other things. Therefore it does not negatively hinder me.

It's hardly healthy thinking. But the issue isn't wether or not it's harmful or helpful to you.

It's that it's just nonsense no matter how you dress it up.

 

[Raziaar]

It's hardly healthy thinking. But the issue isn't wether or not it's harmful or helpful to you.

It's that it's just nonsense no matter how you dress it up.

You've said that many, many times already. You're just reiterating each time.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I think he meant that some believe that god CAUSED the big bang..

 

[Absinthe]

You've said that many, many times already. You're just reiterating each time.

Sound similar to your repeatedly stated inability to answer questions?

 

[Raziaar]

Sound similar to your repeatedly stated inability to answer questions?

If you look back... I have posted a tremendous amount about the topic at hand, in this thread, pertaining to my own views. And only very, VERY minorly has any of it been regarding an inability to answer a particular question.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I'm back from eating a shrimp burger, and...

I present to you all: The Thequation!

Zippity zap!

Now I'll catch up with the posts I missed.

STAY TUNED

 

[bbson john]

Stop!

^ this is called spamming. A post with a lot of sentences is not spamming. Even there is no so-called argument.

"people are trying to get me to support Bahaiism or Taoism and argue in favor of the bible."

Who's fighting for bible? I didn't. I fight for religions; in you definition, beliefs. You like making assumption, don't you?


Somone may say god or religion is totally a "delusion". People a lying themselves out of those distress in reality.
What's wrong with it? If you think the delusion is that bad, why people are still taking pain-killer? Why dying patients have to receive pain therapy? If we cannot heal ourselves, assistance from "delusion" can really help a lot. It saves your mind, your ability to think. Or let you "hear yourself think".

Anyway, intangible means "unable to affect others" is over-simplified. As Mr. Raziaar said before, he learnt to love others after he joined the religion. Isn't it what the God offered him? Didn't the God changed, affected him? In fact, I really don't know whether was the priest affected him or the church affected him. The most importantly, he is influenced, in the name of God. At this point, the proof of the existence, or tangibility, of God is no longer important. He is already positively influenced. The beneficence God and all other beliefs are no longer limited at their existence or intangibility.

Last by not least, a person who said an a object which is not being seen, heard, sensed does not exist is phenomenalist. That is not a law of logic.

 

[Absinthe]

Since when are pain-killers or "pain therapy" delusional?

At least those things serve to a practical effect. I don't see what religion accomplishes that nothing else can. And if Raziaar needed faith in order to love others, then that is very disconcerting. There should be (and are) other ways for people to cope with their problems and improve themselves without sacrificing their rationality to biblical mumbo jumbo. Religion may provide a benefit, but it's often with a bunch of unsightly strings attached.

 

[bbson john]

Since when are pain-killers or "pain therapy" delusional?

At least those things serve to a practical effect. I don't see what religion accomplishes that nothing else can.

Since when are religion delusional?

Anyway, you will never understand since you are living your life wealthily and easily. Upon this miserable world, there are too many people living under countless unsolvable problems, like poverty and illness. Do not forget, some of them are always in pain while they have plainly no money to buy pain-killer, nor can bill buy them relief. However, you are not totally wrong. Religion can't offer you relief and comfort if you don't believe it. But for those who believe, religion is very effective.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Frig, I accidentally deleted a post-in-the-works.

Oh well.


Anywho, this painkiller nonsense makes no sense.

Painkillers are scientifically designed to prevent the sensation of pain. They serve a distinct medical purpose.

As far as you've proven, churches are just fictions that people take far too seriously. Fiction is fun, but is it worth giving up so much rational thought?
Also, no religious person says "I go to church to delude myself!"
Isn't it bad to have people deluded against their will, even if they seem happy afterwards?

What is the benefit?
What is the cost?

Without outlining both and comparing the two, you can't truly say that religion is beneficial.

 

[theotherguy]

You could get a pre-frontal lobotoby and be constantly happy.

That doesn't change the fact that you're lobotomized.

 

[bbson john]

Anywho, this painkiller nonsense makes no sense.

Painkillers are scientifically designed to prevent the sensation of pain. They serve a distinct medical purpose, as well.

How distinct? Religion can act as a prevention of the sensation of worriment and discomfort. They serve a distinct psychologic medical purpose.
Never say "nonsense" when you cannot grab other's meaning.

As far as you've proven, churches are just fictions that people take far to seriously to be worth it.
What is the benefit?
What is the cost?
Without outlining both and comparing the two, you can't truly say that religion is beneficial.

First, I am not focused on the worthiness of church.
Second, church does cost a lot, so as people's donation. But is the relief you gain is really in the measure of "money". Relief, comfort, ease are things that you cannot grab with your hands. They are invaluable. The rich can still have annoyance. There is no criterion in balancing between money and happiness. If you think money is more important, or you are already very happy, it is fine you ignore all the religion. While you think unhappiness is overwhelming, it is nothing wrong to step towards religion.
And if you believe in religion, it is needless to proof its existence.

You could get a pre-frontal lobotoby and be constantly happy.

That doesn't change the fact that you're lobotomized.

Ehh.... that's a good point. But this will make you over-emotionally unbalanced.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"Religion can act as a prevention of the sensation of worriment and discomfort. They serve a distinct psychologic medical purpose."

No they don't. You cannot serve a medical purpose if you aren't performing actual medicine.

That's a terrible way of thinking. You have no evidence to support that at all.
No study has ever proven that faith increases health.
At least one study shows that prayer actually causes increased stress which makes people more sick:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html

www.quackwatch.org has long, long lists of fake medicines that people believe in, which often get people seriously injured or killed while providing no medical benefit.

It wastes money and it wastes lives.

 

[Raeven0]

Religion can act as a prevention of the sensation of worriment and discomfort.

Even assuming you're right (Mecha has some evidence that you aren't), shall I gouge my eyes to obscure the world's ugliness?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Killing yourself ends all pain.
Therefore everyone should kill themselves.
After all, you'll go to straight to heaven.

There is no downside to killing yourself. Have faith in me!

 

[Raziaar]

Killing yourself ends all pain.
Therefore everyone should kill themselves.
After all, you'll go to straight to heaven.

There is no downside to killing yourself. Have faith in me!

Come on, even though I know you're joking... that's ridiculously stupid.

That's like telling somebody that since there is no god, and no afterlife punishment... do whatever you want. Kill people if it makes you happy and gives you a thrill. You're just furthering the enjoyment of your life.

Ridiculous, no?

 

[bbson john]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ics/faith.html

Wow! That dude is in "national council against health fraud" list!
No they don't. Frauds don't speak the truth.



"Delusion is good because it feels good."

It's a very bad statement, really bad. It is extremely bad when you dupe yourself away from treatment... Wait, is there any treatment for poverty and famine? Is there a pill for those who has been reviled unjustly? Is there a therapy for those who has terminal cancer? The only way to help those people is by pain therapy. Since the pain is a mental one, we can choose to either lobotomize them or call them to kill themself. Wait, but why not let them join a religion?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"Wait, is there any treatment for poverty and famine? Is there a pill for those who has been reviled unjustly? Is there a therapy for those who has terminal cancer?"

Duh, I already told you: Suicide!
All these people should kill themselves and so should you.
They'll all be rewarded in heaven!

Only I speak the truth!

It doesn't matter if I'm right or not because suicide makes people feel good!

Isn't that what you are saying?

 

[bbson john]

"Wait, is there any treatment for poverty and famine? Is there a pill for those who has been reviled unjustly? Is there a therapy for those who has terminal cancer?"

Duh, I already told you: Suicide!
All these people should kill themselves and so should you.
They'll all be rewarded in heaven!

It doesn't matter if I'm right or not because suicide makes people feel good!

Wow, all Christians have committed suicide. But why there is always a goddamn priest keeps knocking my door and persuading me into their religion, while a crowd of Christians say how happy and easy they are after they joined the religion? Did religion call people to join the family of angels faster, so as to be rewarded greatly?

Isn't that what you are saying?

No, I mean... At last, don't commit suicide, Mecha'. I know my argument is so good and flawless that you have no point to continue the discussion. I know I hurt you and your atheistic mates badly. But don't feel unhappy. Don't step into the very threshold of heaven.

 

[Absinthe]

Haha, john, you're full of shit.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Excuse my asking, but are those jokes?

I'm terribly confused.

You asked for a cure for cancer, poverty and famine.
The answer is suicide, not faith. Faith can't boast suicide's 100% proven results when it comes to stopping everything from winter doldrums to fatal poisonings.

 

[colson]

How are you able to prove that it's all a farce? Prove it here now please. Without any shred of doubt. Scientific proof that a greater being that created reality as we know it does not exist. I'll be interested to hear what you have to say. If you can PROVE that a god of sorts does not exist, I vow to dissolve my faith.

The burden of proof rests on you, since you're claiming you can disprove it. I'm not claiming I can prove anything.



I've only invested as much time and energy as anybody who has a hobby. Probably less, too.


Oh and by the way, I am glad you managed to get a good hearty chuckle from all this. Laughing is good for you.

Isn't there a big enough mountain of proof in this thread for you? Have you read any of the posts made by Mechagodzilla or Absinthe? They make many very good points and they have layed down lots of evidence stating how the bible contradicts itself over and over. Also isn't it enough evidence for you that god doesn't exist if it cannot speak to you, interact with you or do anything? Surely if there was a god we would know for sure because we would feel its presence or we'd at least be able to follow a trail of its achievements. All we got to go by that god exists is a "holy book" the bible. How do you know that it wasn't some crazy guy who wrote it thousands of years ago as a bed time story for his children?

 

[bbson john]

You asked for a cure for cancer, poverty and famine.
The answer is suicide, not faith. Faith can't boast suicide's 100% proven results when it comes to stopping everything from winter doldrums to fatal poisonings.

So many people, who fear of cancer, poverty, famine, fear of death as well. If you call them to kill themself, that's go against their wills. They don't want to die. If so, how come they want to kill themself? They won't do it. After all, suicide is an action of cowardice. Most of the religions regard suicide as a guilt.

Of course so many people choose to kill themself while they are suffering from certain illness. I cannot deny that. A lot of patients had signed a DNR. But there are also a lot of patients don't, as they really don't want to accept death that quick. Rather, they chose ways to make them live their remaining days with ease.

 

[CrazyHarij]

the christian god is not the only ****ing god there is

just because the bible is completely, utterly pathetic, doesn't mean there is no god in any shape or fashion, or a supernatural existance or something along the lines of that

I don't believe in a god in a traditional sense, i find the concept of god itself pretty stupid and obviously a product of man's fears, but i think there's more to reality than what we believe in the present.. maybe we're all interconnected or something like that, that'd be the most logical thing, i dont get why everyone who is even remotely into new age and supernatural stuff has to advocate there being some big entity watching over us and bossing us around

Rather, they chose ways to make them live their remaining days with ease.

pot?

 

[bbson john]

i think there's more to reality than what we believe in the present.

Yes, we all are product after the Renaissance.

Haha, john, you're full of shit.

You are totally correct this time. In fact, I have just carried out defaecation after my last reply. Really smelly.

 

[Tr0n]

Thank you crazy.

There has been many of religious debates on these message boards, and it's always come down to "we don't know". Just like this one it's come back full circle as always.

You can see why no one likes to get into religious type of debates because it ends up back at the start like every debate. Now I can understand debating the validness of the cannons of many religions due to them being made by man and as such can be flawed, but debating the concept of god or what have you is futile because it always goes back to the start.

Note: Anybody that kills themself because of a book that was created by man(men) is batshit insane IMO. But of course I'm just a rebellious bastards, which is why I'm not patriotic nor would I die for this country/goverment or any other.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"They don't want to die. If so, how come they want to kill themself?"


Because they are delusional. :O


"After all, suicide is an action of cowardice."

Wrong.
Failure to kill yourself is an act of cowardess.
Everyone must kill themselves to go to heaven and live forever in joy and bliss!

Do not be afraid of heaven!

 

[bbson john]

Thank you crazy.

There has been many of religious debates on these message boards, and it's always come down to "we don't know". Just like this one it's come back full circle as always.

You can see why no one likes to get into religious type of debates because it ends up back at the start like every debate. Now I can understand debating the validness of the cannons of many religions due to them being made by man and as such can be flawed, but debating the concept of god or what have you is futile because it always goes back to the start.

Actually, I bring you guys out of the circle. Am I debating the existence of the God? No. Am I arguing the tangibility of the Almighty? No. I am saying that religion really help us, the true existence of the god seems to be unimportant and irrelevant, since God has already helped the poor. Anyway, you will not care about my argument.

"They don't want to die. If so, how come they want to kill themself?"

Because they are delusional. :O

"They don't want to die. If so, how come they want to kill themself?" -actually, they don't want to.

Why are you still typing on the Internet. I thought your mind is so clear that you have already committed suicide, but you aren't. I admit that I am delusional since I am still living. Perhaps you are delusional since I cannot see your bloody face on the news. We all are the same, we all are delusional, no matter we are religious or not.

Edit: That's tricky, prehaps you misconceive my meaning.

Wrong.
Failure to kill yourself is an act of cowardess.
Everyone must kill themselves to go to heaven and live forever in joy and bliss!

Do not be afraid of heaven!

Failure to kill yourself is an act of cowardice, Yes. But I have never attempted to kill myself. So there is no failure at all. I am no coward, haha!
To be true, you will be dead some days or some years later. Why don't you experience more before you die? We earn more.

And, no one afraid of heaven, but you afraid of death. Why? Because you are going to hell after you died.
You are really lack of argument, as a matter of fact.

 

[Tr0n]

I wasn't referring to you. That was just a general statement.

 

[Absinthe]

Except you haven't detailed how religion helps us, and most certainly not in any sort of exclusive manner.

The most you've said is that it makes you feel better. I posit that sacrificing reason for the sake of comfort is one of the most misleading, delusional, and potentially dangerous things a person can do.

 

[Cole]

No. I am saying that religion really help us

I would agree with you but I would also disagree with you. My cousins, who are christian, fight all the time. Constantly. I am not saying all Christians fight. I am Athiest, and I get a long with my brothers and sisters just fine.

If they were Athiest, would they still fight? Yeah.
If I was christian, would we still not fight? Yeah.

I am a good person and I like to help people. I see other people picking on other people who all believe in god.
If I was a christian would I still like to help people? Yeah.
If they were all athiest, would they still probably be bullying? Yeah.

I was raised Christian. If I would have kept that faith would I probably still be just about the same person I am today? Yes.

Going to chruch and believing in God doesn't make a person good. Yes Religion can teach you some good traits, however is that not your parents job? I am a good person because that is the way I was brought up by my parents. It is also heavily influenced by my past experinces.

 

[Tr0n]

Except you haven't detailed how religion helps us, and most certainly not in any sort of exclusive manner.

The most you've said is that it makes you feel better. I posit that sacrificing reason for the sake of comfort is one of the most misleading, delusional, and potentially dangerous things a person can do.

Exactly. I for one do not see religion as a help to us anymore. As I said and many others have before, we have escaped those chains of old thinking.

This is the 21st century, the information the age. Not the 16th century.

We do not need rules to be spirtual, the only limit is a persons mind.

I would agree with you but I would also disagree with you. My cousins, who are christian, fight all the time. Constantly. I am not saying all Christians fight. I am Athiest, and I get a long with my brothers and sisters just fine.

If they were Athiest, would they still fight? Yeah.
If I was christian, would we still not fight? Yeah.

I am a good person and I like to help people. I see other people picking on other people who all believe in god.
If I was a christian would I still like to help people? Yeah.
If they were all athiest, would they still probably be bullying? Yeah.

I was raised Christian. If I would have kept that faith would I probably still be just about the same person I am today? Yes.

Going to chruch and believing in God doesn't make a person good. Yes Religion can teach you some good traits, however is that not your parents job? I am a good person because that is the way I was brought up by my parents. It is also heavily influenced by my past experinces.

Same here.

As the Shepherd on Serenity once said, "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it."

 

[bbson john]

The most you've said is that it makes you feel better. I posit that sacrificing reason for the sake of comfort is one of the most misleading, delusional, and potentially dangerous things a person can do.

How morphine help you? - make you feel better.
Isn't it detail enough?

I would agree with you but I would also disagree with you. My cousins, who are christian, fight all the time. Constantly. I am not saying all Christians fight. I am Athiest, and I get a long with my brothers and sisters just fine.

You are right. Religion can make someone be really bad. As I can see on the news, people kill for defending their religions; priests sexually offended children, but that is only a small portion. As for the religious war, like Crusade. That is not really linking to us seems what we are is a ordinary citizens. And I said religion can relieve our pain. Fanatics are another case. They are bad or keep provoking wars. There are many fanatics, but still far from reaching the number of quiet-believers.