teenage Iranian girl to be hanged

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NotATool, I'm not talking about your opinion, or at least the context of it - I'm just saying that if you go ahead and declare it worthless anyway - even if it is - you might as well crawl under a rock and die.

Now, I've been reading through the thread and I'm absolutely moved to bitter anger that some people have the tenacity to suggest she didn't have the right (the RIGHT? who the F*CK decides that anyway? for ****ing sure not Nat Turner) to defend herself and her niece against three men assaulting and attempting to rape them with legal force - SHE STABBED THEM IN THE HAND FIRST BUT THEY KEPT COMING.

That's not even the ****ed up part though. No, these same people who say that she didn't have the right to defend herself are the ones who rail against gun control and feel justified in shooting a criminal for merely trespassing on their property trying to steal their stuff.

Tell me where that makes sense.
 
JNightshade said:
This is an issue of morality and basic human dignity
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No it's not.

These are the facts of the case:

A woman with no signs of violence.
A man with a fatal wound.
That woman's testimonial.

Even in the states she would be persecuted, although no doubtedly it would have all been much more hush-hush.
 
She wouldn't be sentenced to public death by hanging in the United States.

That's the issue here.

A seventeen year old girl - that's how old I turn on Friday - being murdered in a town square somewhere because she defended herself from rape.

If you don't think that's wrong, then I don't even want to keep talking to you.
 
Ennui said:
Now, I've been reading through the thread and I'm absolutely moved to bitter anger that some people have the tenacity to suggest she didn't have the right (the RIGHT? who the F*CK decides that anyway? for ****ing sure not Nat Turner) to defend herself and her niece against three men assaulting and attempting to rape them with legal force - SHE STABBED THEM IN THE HAND FIRST BUT THEY KEPT COMING.
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Hmm okay, that's irrelevant to my point, maybe to Nat's, not mine. All I'm saying is what the hell can you do: a woman stabbed a man and she claims her life was in danger. I beleive her, but the court can't just say "ah okay, I beleive your story."
 
Ennui said:
If you don't think that's wrong, then I don't even want to keep talking to you.
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If you think I don't think it's wrong, then you've never been listening in the first place.
 
NotATool said:
Hmm okay, that's irrelevant to my point, maybe to Nat's, not mine. All I'm saying is what the hell can you do: a woman stabbed a man and she claims her life was in danger. I beleive her, but the court can't just say "ah okay, I beleive your story."
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I'll let my previous post speak again.

They didn't just not accept her story, they ruled it as completely false and sentenced a girl who's not even a real woman yet to death by public hanging.
 
NotATool said:
If you think I don't think it's wrong, then you've never been listening in the first place.
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NotATool said:
That's because it's Iranian law, they can't randomly decide to let her off.
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I'm more appalled that you're actually giving a damn about anything other than the basic theme of human compassion here. I realize you think it's wrong, but how can you focus on anything other than that?
 
Ennui said:
I'll let my previous post speak again.

They didn't just not accept her story, they ruled it as completely false and sentenced a girl who's not even a real woman yet to death by public hanging.
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That's because it's Iranian law, they can't randomly decide to let her off.

Ennui said:
I'm more appalled that you're actually giving a damn about anything other than the basic theme of human compassion here. I realize you think it's wrong, but how can you focus on anything other than that?
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Because focusing purely on your emotions is just being close-minded.
 
do you think a man would have been hanged for self-defense? i doubt it. in those middle east countries, women are second class citizens. They can't drive, they can't vote, they can't divorce their abusive husbands. They have no rights. They are slaves.

Just because it's a different culture doesn't mean we can't reserve judgment on those people. Basic human rights cross all borders and cultures.
 
Adidajs said:
do you think a man would have been hanged for self-defense? i doubt it. in those middle east countries, women are second class citizens. They can't drive, they can't vote, they can't divorce their abusive husbands. They have no rights. They are slaves.

Just because it's a different culture doesn't mean we can't reserve judgment on those people. Basic human rights cross all borders and cultures.
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And they also reserve judgement on you. Your society is not better, just different. You're closed-minded if you think otherwise.
 
NotATool said:
Because focusing purely on your emotions is just being close-minded.
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Making generalizations like that get you absolutely nowhere. I only focus purely on my emotions and morals when I reasonably understand that there is no other solution. This is one of those cases - there is no reason you should morally feel that it's anything but injustice that's being committed, and gross injustice at that.

I can hold my own in any kind of argument you want to bring, but I prefer my fights to be based on compassion.

edit: I'm amused that Nat Turner, who's one of the most annoyingly right-wing people on the forums, thinks he can use close-minded as some kind of insult on other people, despite the base hypocrisy of that act
 
I absolutely agree with Nat that it's simply different- no better, no worse. However, I am going by my personal values and saying that, in my opinion, this girl has committed no crime. Even if the outcome is the same, someone killing out of malice and someone killing out of self-defense are two completely different things.

Okay, fine. By the Iranian values, perhaps she should be sentenced to death. Perhaps not. I wouldn't know (for that matter, none of us would) as I don't live in Iran. But in MY book, this is despicable.
 
Ennui said:
I can hold my own in any kind of argument you want to bring, but I prefer my fights to be based on compassion.
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Okay, I have one question.

These are the facts of the case:

A woman with no signs of violence.
A man with a fatal wound.
That woman's testimonial.
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What, in your opinion, should have been the sentence?

I need to clarify this in order to continue this conversation.
Btw: I'd appreciate if this doesn't turn hostile, I have nothing against you.
 
NotATool said:
What, in your opinion, should have been the sentence?

I need to clarify this in order to continue this conversation.
Btw: I'd appreciate if this doesn't turn hostile, I have nothing against you.
Click to expand...
If I turn hostile against anyone in this thread, it won't be you.

I don't know what I think she should have been sentenced as; even if she killed in self defense, I have a huge problem with that, because the death of a human being is something that I've never quite been able to comprehend fully in its gravity, and I've tried as hard as I can to not let myself become jaded to that enormity like so many people obviously have. Certainly not sentenced to death, especially given the circumstances of the case - but if she killed the man in cold blood and wasn't being assaulted or attemptedly raped, why would his two companions not step forward and provide alternate testimony? I assume that didn't happen because it's not mentioned int he article. That's not my argument though; to answer your question, I think she maybe should be detained for a while, just to satisfy people who think that the knowledge you have taken a human life isn't punishment enough.

That would torture me the rest of my life, and judging from that she broke down in tears in court while describing how she didn't mean to kill him, only to save her and her niece, she won't get over it easily either.
 
Ennui said:
That's not even the ****ed up part though. No, these same people who say that she didn't have the right to defend herself are the ones who rail against gun control and feel justified in shooting a criminal for merely trespassing on their property trying to steal their stuff.

Tell me where that makes sense.
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Say what? Who said that other than Nat?



My point is : There's really nothing to argue here. We all agree that ideally she should have the right to defend herself. Iranian law says otherwise.

What's to debate?
 
I don't even know what the hell we're arguing about, I'm just responding to things being said
 
Hmmm, I think we are arguing on two different levels.

All I'm saying is if this is Iranian law, the the court has no choice but to sentence her to hanging, because the court is purely objective. A woman has killed a man and there is no sign of self-defence. As for the two companions not providing alternate testimony, we can't assume the opposite for the article is noticeably and HEAVILY biased. In my argument, compassion has no relevance whatsoever. The court's job is to be objective.

However I do disagree with the death penalty in general and I find it despicable that she was not provided with an attorney. But let me guess: if we were having that argument, we'd be fighting on the same side.
 
I think we're agreeing, but our difference is that I'm far more subjective than you are.

I think compassion should play a part; you don't. That's not really something we can argue about I think.

Anyway, tis bedtime for me. This thread piqued my interest, though - maybe I'll start posting a bit in the politics section.
 
Murray_H said:
I drew this thread

untitled4mo.png
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:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
I don't know why you deleted my drawing, it was an artistic representation of the confusion!
 
NotATool said:
Hmm okay, that's irrelevant to my point, maybe to Nat's, not mine. All I'm saying is what the hell can you do: a woman stabbed a man and she claims her life was in danger. I beleive her, but the court can't just say "ah okay, I beleive your story."
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my friend, she wasn't even able to afford a lawyer, and no lawyer was appointed
a 17 year old girl had to defend herself in court
what do you expect from a heavily male-dominated society? how could they possibly take the word of a teenage girl over 3 men?

*edit
and yeah, perhaps it should be moved to the politics section cause thats what its turned into: a political discussion

*double edit
THIS THREAD IS HOTTT!
 
B_MAN said:
my friend, she wasn't even able to afford a lawyer, and no lawyer was appointed
a 17 year old girl had to defend herself in court
what do you expect from a heavily male-dominated society? how could they possibly take the word of a teenage girl over 3 men?
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http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1848695&postcount=177

It wasn't the word of 3 men it was a stab wound in one of the men's chest.
 
MiccyNarc said:
'grats on 2000.
This all comes back to culture clash. Iran is stuck, morally and culturally, in the middle ages.
We only know about it now because of the wonders of the internet.
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Don't say stuff like that, you can't judge a whole nation by the actions of their extremists. Most Iranians favor democracy, and want change, they don't want the mullahs or any of this religious bs. And I'm not saying this just to you, but everyone one of you guys, especially the ignorant fools like reaktor who say "hope america nukes them", I hope america nukes your family too you asshat. It wasn't always like this, Iran was one of the world's richest and greatest country up until the sixties.
 
Yet again people don't seem to realise that the law just decides what's legal and illegal, not what's right and wrong. Right and wrong are personal values we all formulate individually based on our own experiences. Iranian law says she should die, so she is going to. Nothing has necessarily gone wrong with the way Iranian law works here.

However Nat is also losing the plot when he suggests that just because something is state-authorised in a certain country, we have to sit back and accept things. Saying 'I don't think it's right that we interfere in the way another country works' is yet another personal judgement call, and it goes against the grain of how the world works.

If a law were to authorise genocide, then the international community would not sit back and accept it. I doubt even Nat Turner would go '*shrug* nothing we can do'. Why is this? Not because there's some mystical stone tablet under a mountain somewhere saying GENOCIDE IS WRONG, but because there's a sway of opinion in the international community which says:'we draw a line here - you cross this line and we will force you to conform to our opinion of what is right'. There is no particular reason the rest of the world can intervene in that scenario but not in this one, other than vague international convention - convention made by people, just as was Iran's law.

So the world is just a big heaving mass, with blobs of morality fighting eachother for supremacy.

The idea that 'that's just the way they do things, we must respect it' is just another opinion. My own values, which happen to coincide with the prevailing international morality, are that the voiceless should be given a voice, and the defenceless should be protected. Iran's society has a fundamental bias against women, which ends up putting girls like this in situations of needless stress and suffering - like the potential rape she faced. So fine, she DOES deserve to die under their law, but Iranian law and social values are just another bunch of opinions (male ones, predominantly), so why not attack them? That's the way it works.
 
B_MAN said:
that is the most absurd comment ive read today

you're saying that her execution is justified because she wasn't able to keep her cool under pressure??

we're talking about a 17 year old girl being jumped by 3 men remember?
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You are interpreting my post beyond it's intent. I'm saying if she had the capacity to kill someone, she could have AS EASILY temporarily incapacitated him.

Nowhere did I mention execution. READ: EXCAVATION, syn., REMOVAL ie, prison, execution, deportation, whatever means is justified of the situation.

I made no comment on what I believe she deserves unless she is found to be a threat to society. A homicidal person would be a threat to society. I personally do not have the capacity to kill. I therefore cannot be homicidal.

Are you starting to understand my point of view?

Take what I say at face value.
 
The rest of the men should be hanged, not the girl.


And you want to know whats extremely sick? It will be videotaped, it WILL be aired, and it will be hosted on sites such as Ogrish and Rotten, for perverted, twisted men and kids to watch gleefully.

****ing bastards.
 
nat turner, you and your rape condoning Absolute relativism cronies are horrible human beings
 
My post was pretty 'absolute relativist' but I'm not his crony ;(
 
This is terrible. The girl acted in self-defence, protecting her own life. And for those who say that there is no reason to kill someone trying to rape you, think again. It's not like you're able to differentiate between a rapist and a killer when you're cornered.
 
Let us respect the laws of the regional and legimate goverment of Iran. however it may be terrible, stupid, and brutal.
 
theroadtonowhere said:
You make me sick.
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What he said isn't wrong, technically speaking. Their rules, their way of life. We have no right to disturb that, although its sick, evil and immoral in our society.
 
CyberPitz said:
This is some old news...is she dead yet?
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i dont think so
the petition is being signed by more and more people every day
and as far as i know, they're still campaigning to save the girl
unfortunately, there isn't very much information to work with
 
Btw, if the petition doesn't work, would you people want some country *coughuscough* to invade it, and reform the laws and the society?
 
however saying that we can't try to change that because its "their" way and that particular way is somehow inviolate, is foolish. Everything is interconnected. Cultures influence one another through force, proximity, economics, or trade. No culture is immune and sacred, everything is changeable. Our view of the situation is that it is highly backwards and unjust, they think its fine and dandy. We should not just resign and say "oh well." Just as they argue against our practices we should argue against theirs and may the best society win.

as for invading, no, nothing so drastic. However appealing to those within the group who see that their system is FUBARed to try to change it is much more feasible.
 
You cannot justify this by saying "Well, thats the way their law is.. nothing you can do about it".
Especially in a democratic nation.
Unjust laws are not supposed to exist, laws can be changed- they are not static. The true debate here is if the punishment here fits the crime- If the hanging is just.


Personally, even if it meant me being hanged, I'd still kill the guy who raped me, and I wouldn't just stab him.. I'd do terrible, painful things. I mean, if I'm going to be sentenced to death regardless, theres no such qualifier as "reasonable force" or "self defence".

Therefore, may as well go completely to town.
 
Laivasse said:
Yet again people don't seem to realise that the law just decides what's legal and illegal, not what's right and wrong. Right and wrong are personal values we all formulate individually based on our own experiences. Iranian law says she should die, so she is going to. Nothing has necessarily gone wrong with the way Iranian law works here.

However Nat is also losing the plot when he suggests that just because something is state-authorised in a certain country, we have to sit back and accept things. Saying 'I don't think it's right that we interfere in the way another country works' is yet another personal judgement call, and it goes against the grain of how the world works.

If a law were to authorise genocide, then the international community would not sit back and accept it. I doubt even Nat Turner would go '*shrug* nothing we can do'. Why is this? Not because there's some mystical stone tablet under a mountain somewhere saying GENOCIDE IS WRONG, but because there's a sway of opinion in the international community which says:'we draw a line here - you cross this line and we will force you to conform to our opinion of what is right'. There is no particular reason the rest of the world can intervene in that scenario but not in this one, other than vague international convention - convention made by people, just as was Iran's law.

So the world is just a big heaving mass, with blobs of morality fighting eachother for supremacy.

The idea that 'that's just the way they do things, we must respect it' is just another opinion. My own values, which happen to coincide with the prevailing international morality, are that the voiceless should be given a voice, and the defenceless should be protected. Iran's society has a fundamental bias against women, which ends up putting girls like this in situations of needless stress and suffering - like the potential rape she faced. So fine, she DOES deserve to die under their law, but Iranian law and social values are just another bunch of opinions (male ones, predominantly), so why not attack them? That's the way it works.
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Thats exactly right, and nicely put. I was about to post something similar along the lines of borders on a map not defining the extent of human morality, but I think you've covered it all.

Some of the posters here make it sound as if they wouldn't interject if their neighbour was condoning child abuse, after all its not on their property so why would they?

Idiocy, pure idiocy, There are some very immature thoughts being bandied around. I'd quite like to know the ages of some of the posters here, it worries me that people so young have such a warped sense of morality and social values.
 
have you ever thought about why these kind of news spread right after iran takes a political step?
 
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