tookie williams

[SIGbastard]

Tip for the future: Don't ever reply to me, because you're a ****ing idiot.

I've explained my reasons for thinking that his execution is wrong. So if you want to put to me a series of banal rhetorical questioning, please refrain from doing so. You can **** yourself on your own time. Spare you the talk of redemption? Spare me your righteous drivel about justice and honor.



If he was truly looking for an easy way out to extend his life, don't you think he would have gone ahead and admitted guilt, regardless of wether he was?

My my, the world's a sad place when you people make such gaps in rational thinking.

Well if that's the case why hasn't he admitted guilt? He has to much pride IMHO. Writing childrens books etc doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't even confess. Gacey, a renowned serial killer painted pictures of clowns while he was in prison. Maybe he was reformed as well.

 

[nofx]

weird i have a debate on punishment vs. rehabilitation tommorow
im more for lifetime incarceration which is a type of punishment
i hate when people take it into their own hands, capital punishment, playing the game as if they are god.

would we feel the same way about timothy mcveigh?

 

[nofx]

Well if that's the case why hasn't he admitted guilt? He has to much pride IMHO. Writing childrens books etc doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't even confess. Gacey, a renowned serial killer painted pictures of clowns while he was in prison. Maybe he was reformed as well.

serial killers imho cannot be compared to criminals like tookie
serial killers usually kill for the experimentation in question of life,they just have to see something "good" about you and thats it.
ALSO gacey was locked up even while he was doing his killing and released, why, because serial killers are extremely cunning btw while he was locked up his father died and when he asked to go see his funeral he was denied this made even more detriment to his personality.
gacey probably drew clowns because when he attacked his victim with the aide of chloroform he tortured them disguised as a clown as they came in conscious and back out again. alos gacey loved the game of russian roulette where you put one bullet into a revolver and keep switching and clicking; faking the victim out each time if they might just die. gacey did it different and loaded the gun with a blank.

gacey what a crazee bum

 

[Zeus]

because he made a decision you don;t agree with? or because he's following what a jury decided? or maybe because he won;t save a killer's life? spare me all the talk of redemption. A jury decided that he has killed people, and whether it's 3 or 4, he killed people and you can;t just get away from past sins like that. If Arnold granted him clemency it would make a mockery of the jury decision that put him on death row and would be a dishonor to his victims and their families.

I agree with you..just saying sorry (or in his case, discouraging youth gang involvement) isnt always enough..I learned that in elementary school, when attempting to use "sorry" as an excuse didnt save me from getting suspended.

Williams ended the life of 4 other people and now he has to pay the price..don't blame Arnold because he didn't try to go against a jury's decision.

 

[Absinthe]

don't blame Arnold because he didn't try to go against a jury's decision.

Oh no, I fully CAN blame him when it's within his power.

 

[gh0st]

wow so now thats the 9th circuit, local circuit, california supreme court, US supreme court, and arnold vs tookie, jamie foxx and absinthe. not quite enough i guess. BURN BABY.

 

[Absinthe]

wow so now thats the 9th circuit, local circuit, california supreme court, US supreme court, and arnold vs tookie, jamie foxx and absinthe. not quite enough i guess. BURN BABY.

lol wtf?

Your pitiful attempts to get a rise used to be somewhat amusing, but now they're just getting kind of sad.

 

[Icarusintel]

Tip for the future: Don't ever reply to me, because you're a ****ing idiot.

I've explained my reasons for thinking that his execution is wrong. So if you want to put to me a series of banal rhetorical questioning, please refrain from doing so. You can **** yourself on your own time. Spare you the talk of redemption? Spare me your righteous drivel about justice and honor.

My my, the world's a sad place when you people make such gaps in rational thinking.

you calling me a f*cking idiot doesn;t help me try to understand your position any better

i just didn;t feel like reading through six pages of posts so i could find your exact position on the matter, and personally, i don;t care to now either
i was actually trying to figure out why you didn't think arnold's decision was the right thing to do, they weren't rhetorical questions at all, but you interpreted them as such

without a justice system we are left in anarchy and anyone could do any crime without punishment, which is ridiculous, if you want anarchy go to Colombia or some African nation in the midst of civil war

maybe you didn;t realize that everything is subjective and your rational thought isn;t the same as someone else's, i've certainly see plenty of people do things i thought were irrational, only to find they thought it was rational, it's all a matter of perspective, and you're not some big authority on the subject, you don't know what happened during those murders, you don;t know Tookie personally, for all anyone knows he might be itching to kill someone or he could be the kindest, gentlest man in the world, but none of us will ever know, the simple fact is that he is going to die and none of us can do anything about it

 

[Absinthe]

without a justice system we are left in anarchy and anyone could do any crime without punishment, which is ridiculous, if you want anarchy go to Colombia or some African nation in the midst of civil war

STRAW MAN FALSE DICHOTOMY GG BUT NOT TONIGHT, SIR

caps

 

[gh0st]

lol wtf?

Your pitiful attempts to get a rise used to be somewhat amusing, but now they're just getting kind of sad.

only when they are so blatant you cant help but figure it out. every reaction from you in this thread has been full of rage... i can imagine you seething at your computer screen as you stuff another twinkie into your mouth.

icarus didnt insult you but you lashed out like you always do. its so "banal".

 

[Icarusintel]

STRAW MAN FALSE DICHOTOMY GG BUT NOT TONIGHT, SIR

caps

this is childish, if you don;t want to make an attempt to respond then just don;t respond at all

 

[Absinthe]

only when they are so blatant you cant help but figure it out. every reaction from you in this thread has been full of rage... i can imagine you seething at your computer screen as you stuff another twinkie into your mouth.

The twinkie bit was a nice touch.

Don't mistake a low tolerance for BS as a hot temper. I honestly couldn't care. I just often find bluntness to be far more poignant than wording my way around retards.

this is childish, if you don;t want to make an attempt to respond then just don;t respond at all

Respond to what? I don't feel inclined to type my reasoning out again, especially not to a person who has arrived to the conclusion that because Absinthe opposes the death penalty, he endorses anarchy!

 

[Murray_H]

if he ever was released and killed again, he would not only shit over all his "good deeds" but he would give a reason to everone prejudiced against him to be certain to blame him and everybody else whos suspect.

I thought it was death vs. life w/out parole (as in no chance, ever)

 

[CptStern]

listened to a afidavit today on a jailhouse witness who says that the prosecution's main witness (his cellmate) was handed states evidence before testifying and was promised a shortened sentence if he testified in their behalf:


http://savetookie.org/documents/Affidavit.pdf



"during my incarceration with Mr Oglesby, I personally observed a sequence of events wherein Los Angeles Sherriff department personnel delivered to Mr Oglesby copies of documents relating to various criminal cases including police reports specifically relating to the prosecution of Mr Williams, which I personally read"


in other words the prosecution coached Oglesby and supplied him with police reports that he shouldnt have been privy to

 

[CptStern]

double post


there's rally's listed throughout the US from people of all walks of life

 

[SIGbastard]

listened to a afidavit today on a jailhouse witness who says that the prosecution's main witness (his cellmate) was handed states evidence before testifying and was promised a shortened sentence if he testified in their behalf:


http://savetookie.org/documents/Affidavit.pdf



"during my incarceration with Mr Oglesby, I personally observed a sequence of events wherein Los Angeles Sherriff department personnel delivered to Mr Oglesby copies of documents relating to various criminal cases including police reports specifically relating to the prosecution of Mr Williams, which I personally read"


in other words the prosecution coached Oglesby and supplied him with police reports that he shouldnt have been privy to

Is there anything other to back this up besides a convicts testimony? A single testimony from a convict doesn't really have great credibility. I'm not saying convicts shouldn't be able to testify, but there should be more to back the claim up. In the case against "tookie" there was a lot more than just a felons testimony.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Wow...I can't believe some of you are saying he has been "redeemed" and then saying the death penalty is barbaric. It is hipocritical really. So we can't kill a guy who kills 4 people and then laughs about it but its ok if someone kills 4 people and laughs about it then writes childrens books? How does writing childrens books make up for killing those poeple. The people that knew those who he murdered will never see those people again...there is no way to replace what they have lost.

 

[CptStern]

Is there anything other to back this up besides a convicts testimony? A single testimony from a convict doesn't really have great credibility. I'm not saying convicts shouldn't be able to testify, but there should be more to back the claim up. In the case against "tookie" there was a lot more than just a felons testimony.

it was filed on dec 9th this year ..oh and it was a jailbird testimony that put him in death row ..but I guess that's far more credible right?

 

[SIGbastard]

it was filed on dec 9th this year ..oh and it was a jailbird testimony that put him in death row ..but I guess that's far more credible right?

I already stressed how there was much more than the "jailbird" testimony in tookies case. If that's all there had been as evidence he never would have been convicted. Go back and read again. "Jailbird" testimony is not useless but I don't think it should solely be relied on as evidence.

 

[CptStern]

sigh ..why do you think people who are against the death penalty want to set him free ...that's just ludicrous

again it was the jailbird testimony that determined that his cxase would be a capital punishment case ..without strong testimony or witnesses they wouldnt have seeked the death penalty

 

[SIGbastard]

sigh ..why do you think people who are against the death penalty want to set him free ...that's just ludicrous

again it was the jailbird testimony that determined that his cxase would be a capital punishment case ..without strong testimony or witnesses they wouldnt have seeked the death penalty

:dozey: I never said that people who are against the death penalty want to set him free. I said that using the same logic about the death penalty being abandoned because it is not a deturrent we should just let prisoners go because it is not enough of a deterrent.

Furthermore we should just stop making pesky laws because to many people break them regardless. I mean they serve no deterrent.....

I know you provided a source saying increased sentences or something is linked to less crime. I have read a study that supported the opposite. I will try to find the study in a couple of days when I am not studying for finals. Until then I will just be glad to know that this murderous dirtbag will be injected with a lethal dose of potassium relatively soon.

 

[Shakermaker]

nm 6char

 

[Sparta]

Did they kill him?

 

[OCybrManO]

IIRC, it's in a little over two hours...

 

[satch919]

I think those of you who try to bring up all this stuff about Williams being framed should look at this: http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie8.htm

It examines the witnesses and the veracity of their statements. Remember that this case has been reviewed by some of the most liberal courts around. However, due to the evidence, they upheld the jury's decision.

 

[CptStern]

George Oglesby

"Although George Oglesby can be characterized as a jailhouse informant, the jury was fully informed of this. In fact, defense counsel for Williams conducted a lengthy and aggressive cross-examination of Mr. Oglesby on this very issue. Much of what George Oglesby testified to, however, was corroborated by handwritten notes written by Stanley Williams himself.
Not only did George Oglesby identify these notes as being written by Stanley Williams, but Deputy Matthews recognized the writing from having previously received notes from Williams. (TT 2382). In addition, Stanley Williams personally handed a note to Deputy Lichten that was subsequently used for comparison purposes. (TT 2535-2536, 2551).


in the afidavit I linked above he claims Oglesby forged those documents, he says he saw it himself

 

[satch919]

in the afidavit I linked above he claims Oglesby forged those documents, he says he saw it himself

Yeah, and a lot of people claim to have seen Jesus.

Think about it, why has it taken until a few days before Williams' death for this afidavit to come out? Sounds like a desperate attempt at keeping him alive.

And another thing, this is just going to be a rant but it's something that's been bothering me. This asshole murders innocent civilians and people get all blubbery when the perp is going to be put to death. Where's the mourning for the victims? It's almost like they're an afterthought. These people spent their last moments in fear and pain. I think its fair for him to understand fear of death and then have it carried out. Then perhaps with his last breath, he'll truly be sorry.

 

[CptStern]

granted he could be saying whatever the hell he wants but he does cite others who also witnessed what he did ..read his statement it says he only just found out about the Oglesby connection from reading an article in the paper


oh and for what's it worth not one person here who is against the death penalty is asking for him to be released ..life in parole imho is still a fitting sentence for the 4 murders. I'm not convinced of his innocence but it doesnt make my view on capital punishment any different

 

[TheSomeone]

If he dies tonight, we are showing thousands of emprisoned gang members that whatever you do to redeem yourself, whatever you do to try to stop gang crime once you learned the hard way, you're gonna die anyways so forget it, you might as well keep on gang banging.

 

[satch919]

If he dies tonight, we are showing thousands of emprisoned gang members that whatever you do to redeem yourself, whatever you do to try to stop gang crime once you learned the hard way, you're gonna die anyways so forget it, you might as well keep on gang banging.

Don't fool yourself. These guys would continue to be involved with gangs no matter what. It's their way of life, that's all they know. Besides, if you're a religious person, it's not us who finally judges you right? We're simply helping you meet your maker. It's the express way to paradise or eternal damnation.

Everyone that is not classified as mentally retarded knows that killing or stealing something is wrong. Here's a simple piece of advice: don't do the crime. Millions of hard working people living under similar circumstances don't engage in criminal activity. You have to work pretty hard to become a career criminal.

 

[TheSomeone]

Everyone that is not classified as mentally retarded knows that killing or stealing something is wrong.

So I guess you're mentally retarded for supporting tookie's death.

You get an A for making generalizations, an F for supporting them.

 

[satch919]

So I guess you're mentally retarded for supporting tookie's death.

You get an A for making generalizations, an F for supporting them.

I aim to please. When you say "F", does that mean fantastic or fabulous?

I suppose that for people such as yourself, you're unable to break it down and understand what I was saying. But for you, I'll spell it out. I was responding in reference to the criminal life style. Example: If you murder someone with malice aforethought. CRIMINAL ACTIVITY! Murder just for the hell of it. Get it? Got it? Good!

I'll make sure I specify every opinion with you. Maybe a side note will suffice?

 

[TheSomeone]

You certainly showed me your ability to be clever and wittily patronizing, but in trying to belittle me you reduced yourself to lower grounds.

As I previously stated, you made the claim that all bent on crime are mentally retarded. Yet you have absolutely no support, making it an unbased generalization that has as much credit as any other: none.

Now let's look at some of the factors that constitue crime. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that all criminals are mentally retarded in some sense.

Clearly you will agree that not all mental retards are bent on crime. Statisically, the majority of prisoners are poor, african-american or latino, yet there is as much of a percentage of mental retards amongst the rich as well. Make note that the large majority of both these races are often surrounded in poverty and miserable childhoods because of harsh living conditions. From this we can pull the conclusion that there are additional factors to what drives on to crime since there is a clear majority of criminals arising from a poor lifestyle.

Now let's take a look at the US bureau of Justice's statistics, crime rates have drastically shot down since the 90s.

There is no explanation for the number of mental retards to have dipped as well, however, in their book Freakonomics Dubner and Levitt offer an explanation for the crime drops that relates to lifestyle. Dubner and Levitt came ot the conclusion that as the number of abortions rose during the 70s following Roe Vs. Wade in the, crimed followed an inverse trend by the time those aborted babies would have reached their 20s (majority age for criminals). How come? Statistics show that aborted babies are often not wanted for strong motives that relate to the unability to properly raise the baby in the case of his birth. Unaborted babies often grow up sons/daughters of single, teenage mothers in a poor uneducated backdrop (in which the mother was not sufficiently taught the risks of unprotected sex) .

With this in mind, there is not even only corrolation between mental retardedness and crime, and your claim remains completely unbased. However, I have demonstrated that there is cause in the relation of poor-lifestyle to crime, meaning that criminals go into crime because of their environments.

Granted, not all poor people participate in criminal activity, but not all poor people are influenced by the same environment in the same way. The majority of criminals grwo up in families where education is not overly stressed because the mother figure is either not present or irresponsible. In this case, the people's first and foremost objective is simply to survive, and in streets ruled by gang warfare joing one seems like the best alternative.

And sometimes, rarely, ex-criminals decide to change. Again you made an unbased assumption that criminals never change, yet you provide no support. Tookie is living (soon to be dead) proof that they DO, and that when they do, they ought to be rewarded as an example so that other criminals might find the right path. And you know, even if Tookie would be a criminal at heart, why would it matter? He'd be in prison anyways, and what matter is his acts which have recently shown to be benevolent.

There, I supported my statements unlike you have. You chose to speak out of ignorance and then insult me. I found my opinions on facts.

 

[CyberSh33p]

state sanctioned murder is not something I can agree with

 

[dantewilliams]

Tookies death isnt for closure, Tookies death will symoblize justice. If we put to death every murderer/ rapist, i garentee crime would be down. Look at Saudi Arabia, thier crime is quite low.

 

[Sulkdodds]

As I previously stated, you made the claim that all bent on crime are mentally retarded.

I thought he was claiming that those who murder either know that it's wrong or are retarded (most of them, we assume, being in the former category)...

 

[kirovman]

Tookies death isnt for closure, Tookies death will symoblize justice. If we put to death every murderer/ rapist, i garentee crime would be down. Look at Saudi Arabia, thier crime is quite low.

Nazi Germany had a low crime rate too. Let us embrace extremism to solve all our problems with society.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Don't fool yourself. These guys would continue to be involved with gangs no matter what. It's their way of life, that's all they know.

way to generalize because you must have the ability to see what all criminals do once they have been punished!

 

[15357]

Nazi Germany had a low crime rate too. Let us embrace extremism to solve all our problems with society.

Thats actually my philosophy. I shared it with my classmates in ethics class.

 

[satch919]

way to generalize because you must have the ability to see what all criminals do once they have been punished!

I'm speaking from experience. I'm studying Criminal Justice and having read the material and listened to my instructors, I feel pretty condfident about my statements. Again, the recidivism rate among those having spent time in prison or other facilities is quite high.

You certainly showed me your ability to be clever and wittily patronizing, but in trying to belittle me you reduced yourself to lower grounds.

As I previously stated, you made the claim that all bent on crime are mentally retarded. Yet you have absolutely no support, making it an unbased generalization that has as much credit as any other: none.

There, I supported my statements unlike you have. You chose to speak out of ignorance and then insult me. I found my opinions on facts.

Yeah, you're one to complain right? I seem to remember you calling me a retard. So who is the one that started the name calling young fellow? Besides, what did you expect me to say in response to that? Reduced myself to lower grounds huh? As I see it, we're on the same playing field so don't forget to include yourself. And don't pretend that you thought highly of me in the first place, you don't even know me.

You're just taking a comment of mine and twisting it around in an attempt to disagree with anything I've said. You're so out of line, I don't think you even realize it. You've provided your opinions but you've responded to something that you chose to extract from my statements. You've wasted your time.

I've got a final exam to go to. I'll respond to the bulk of your post when I get back.

I thought he was claiming that those who murder either know that it's wrong or are retarded (most of them, we assume, being in the former category)...

See, even this guy gets it. What are you having trouble understanding?