LOST: Destiny Found

One of the funniest episodes we've had so far, and pretty touching as well. Jack almost had me in tears.
 
wasn't too much of a fan of this one
sun losing her english, convenient much? i'll give it to jin for making himself badass when he shot mikhail though
, but next week's should be good.
 
Yeah, great episode - probably one of the best, falling behind Dr. Linus, Ab Aeterno and The Substitute.
 
I'm honestly kind of looking forward to this ending. My Tuesday nights will be freed up again.

So turns out Whitmore was always the good guy? Kind of hard to believe.
 
swan_song1973 said:
sun losing her english, convenient much?
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Medically it certainly could happen, but it certainly was convenient.

Krynn72 said:
Where was the funny Yorick?
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Seriously? I was laughing all the way through it. From Miles saying that Hurley would only chase things that are covered in bacon grease, to Keamy being a creepy son of a bitch, to Widmore just ambushing Smokeys entire team the second he turned his back. It was brilliant.

No Limit said:
So turns out Whitmore was always the good guy? Kind of hard to believe.
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I'm not so sure.

The way I see it, Widmore has to kill Smokey no matter what, from his point of view. As he said to Jin, failure to do so will result in everyone in the world being killed. The Island doesn't do Widmore much good if everyone is dead.

But does that make him a good guy? It's hard to forget his "You're not a great man" speech, and the fact that he sent Keamy and other commandos to the island to murder everyone. And even now, he killed all the Ajira survivors to set Zoey up as being the "lone survivor". He kidnapped Desmond (possibly right out of the hospital) to bring him back to the Island to demand a sacrifice from him.

The fact that Zoey is there, searching for the electromagnetic pockets, means there is more going on here than we know, but I refuse to think that Widmore is doing this for anything other than purely selfish reasons.
 
Good episode! I usually find Jin/Sun episodes to be somewhat mediocre, but I found this one oddly compelling. I have only a few gripes that extend beyond this particular episode, though.

The nature of the Alt reality and the over-arching significance it has to the current 2007 timeline on the Island. There’s no argument against the fact, I think, that for the most part it has served a rather arbitrary purpose. It has provided a few interesting what-if stories that have had very little bearing on the narrative as a whole. Certainly, it has allowed for some fantastic character commentary. ‘Dr. Linus’ was a prime example of this. But the vague connection that it has to the Island timeline serves only to undermine the core stories being told, I think. Indeed, without a clear direction, it seems to be doing little more than clogging up what has proven to be significant; the upcoming war with MIB involving the Candidates.

In retrospect, I am sure that once the series ends we will have a much clearer idea of the significance of the alternate reality and the connection it has with the Island timeline. Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse have revealed that it is “vital to the overall story we are telling”. But I think there’s definitely something to be said for not providing a clearer connection to begin with. You rely a great deal on the patience and faith of your viewers, really, when you trudge them along so blindly, so to speak.

The Island timeline is suffering accordingly. Lack of direction. We know a final battle will occur between MIB, Widmore and the Candidates. The writers are getting a few important elements right (notably in terms of character) but the story is otherwise a meandering affair which keeps the series more or less treading water, instead of swimming toward shore. Important stuff is happening. But it’s hard to say that the story has really moved forward. At best, we get clarification on a number of mysteries (What was behind the locked door on Widmore’s sub? What will happen if the Man In Black leaves the Island? Who’s side is Widmore really on?) but not much more than that. At some point, real progress — not the piecemeal kind we’ve seen thus far — is going to have to be made. It’s getting close to that time: sink or swim.

Of course, it is quite possible that these concerns are all the right ones to have, but it doesn't stop me getting a little tired of all the foreplay. We've known that "a war is coming" for a long time now, and they've spent much more time this season moving around the pieces before the thing actually begins. This isn't something I would have expected for the final season. This episode, in particular, shows just how much waiting around has been going on: Locke's camp is sitting tight, Ilana's group has had no idea what to do for the last few episodes until Richard finally gave them some direction...the pacing is crawling a little too much considering how little time we have left. I'm just afraid that when the major overtures are going to kick into gear we will only have a few episodes to go. I hope it's not too back-heavy that it seems rushed and not enough to justify the season (and five years prior) of build-up to it.

Of course, if anyone is capable of turning all of these concerns on their head for me, go for it.

EDIT: The whole Valenzetti equation makes perfect sense now!
 
Episode was alright.

screenhunter01apr020025.jpg


Jin is not pleased though. Looks to me like a "this sucked" face.

ok useless post. Move on. :cheese:
 
So are they actually not married in the alternate reality, or was that just a cover?
 
That was a beautiful episode.
God, I love Desmond.

So, I guess who ever said that Desmond's a conduit between the realities was right?
 
I agree that was a very good episode. Desmond is by far the most likable character in the show for me.
 
so the real question is
what can the person in the alt timeline really do other then simply have these memories? i swear if the finale is just them in a big group smiling at each other then cut to the "LOST" and that's it....i will burn my house down.
 
Lucid said:
So, I guess who ever said that Desmond's a conduit between the realities was right?
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I'm not sure if that's it. While that certainly happened to some degree this evening when Widmore stuck him in that thing, it sounds like it had been happening already. Daniel already met Charlotte and experienced love at first sight. Charlie already saw Claire when he was dying on the plane.

And Desmond in the alt doesn't know what's happening, and I'm not sure what the hell happened to Desmond on the island, except that I think he thinks he has an escape route now. Desmond is currently the only one who might know that an alternate reality does exist, but I'm not sure about him being a "conduit". It's also worth noting that Miles knows for a fact that the bomb went off.

My question is this.

In what capacity does this alternate reality exist? What we saw tonight in Eloise talking to Desmond was the idea that they created it from their desires. She said to him that he shouldn't question it, because he got all he ever wanted, Charles Widmore's approval. I was thinking about that concept, getting "all you ever wanted", in regards to what we've seen of the alt so far.

Some of them are easy to see coming. Locke doesn't hate his father and didn't lose Helen. Daniel was able to pursue music. Sawyer chose to become a cop instead of a conman. Dogen gets to keep his son. Even Boone, on the island he realised how much his sister was holding him back, and in this alternate reality, she didn't want him to rescue her, they're separated. Hurley looks at his money more positively. Even Miles, helping people instead of manipulating them for profit.

Hell, Sun and Jin still escape, still get to be together, and they do it without(?) a terrible marriage based on lies and abuse and him murdering people. But on those same lines, it seems to be unpredictable. She's still pregnant, but now she's also shot. And some of it is more shady and I'm not sure what to make of it. Jack has an ex-wife and a son that he's not a great father to. Rose and Bernard are together, but she still has cancer. Ben is a completely different person.

So it becomes kind of...How exactly did this come into being, and what does it mean? It obviously is more than just "This is the world without Jacob, without the Island". And where the hell are we going to end up come the finale?
 
Yorick said:
I'm not sure if that's it. While that certainly happened to some degree this evening when Widmore stuck him in that thing, it sounds like it had been happening already. Daniel already met Charlotte and experienced love at first sight. Charlie already saw Claire when he was dying on the plane.

And Desmond in the alt doesn't know what's happening, and I'm not sure what the hell happened to Desmond on the island, except that I think he thinks he has an escape route now. Desmond is currently the only one who might know that an alternate reality does exist, but I'm not sure about him being a "conduit". It's also worth noting that Miles knows for a fact that the bomb went off.

My question is this.

In what capacity does this alternate reality exist? What we saw tonight in Eloise talking to Desmond was the idea that they created it from their desires. She said to him that he shouldn't question it, because he got all he ever wanted, Charles Widmore's approval. I was thinking about that concept, getting "all you ever wanted", in regards to what we've seen of the alt so far.

Some of them are easy to see coming. Locke doesn't hate his father and didn't lose Helen. Daniel was able to pursue music. Sawyer chose to become a cop instead of a conman. Dogen gets to keep his son. Even Boone, on the island he realised how much his sister was holding him back, and in this alternate reality, she didn't want him to rescue her, they're separated. Hurley looks at his money more positively. Even Miles, helping people instead of manipulating them for profit.

Hell, Sun and Jin still escape, still get to be together, and they do it without(?) a terrible marriage based on lies and abuse and him murdering people. But on those same lines, it seems to be unpredictable. She's still pregnant, but now she's also shot. And some of it is more shady and I'm not sure what to make of it. Jack has an ex-wife and a son that he's not a great father to. Rose and Bernard are together, but she still has cancer. Ben is a completely different person.

So it becomes kind of...How exactly did this come into being, and what does it mean? It obviously is more than just "This is the world without Jacob, without the Island". And where the hell are we going to end up come the finale?
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keep in mind the island is still there in that timeline and Dharma HAS been there as well as Ben, and Charlotte. One would have to assume that Charles and Eloise have been to the Island as well. at some point the Island sank...whether it was hiding itself, or someone made it hide. that's the question....what i'm wondering is....is this what the island does once the "cork" has been pulled?!
 
huntingbear said:
at some point the Island sank...whether it was hiding itself, or someone made it hide. that's the question....what i'm wondering is....is this what the island does once the "cork" has been pulled?!
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That implies that you believe Jacob that the Man in Black is essentially evil incarnate. It's certainly one school of thought, but I don't trust either of them.
 
I'm just one episode behind because i had to work tonight but I'm upset Netflix isn't streaming the latest season. i'll just watch it on Thursday on my day off but my god this season is awesome
 
Fantastic episode. Goddamn I love Faraday.

huntingbear said:
One would have to assume that Charles and Eloise have been to the Island as well.
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We don't have to assume it, we know that they were there because of the time flashes through the 50's and 70's. We know that they lived on the island pretty much right up until whatever it was that changed everything occurred, and now we know for sure that they got off of it. Actually, we know that virtually every single character got off of it, which, along with many other things, begs some questions on what exactly went down.

Yorick said:
That implies that you believe Jacob that the Man in Black is essentially evil incarnate. It's certainly one school of thought, but I don't trust either of them.
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While I agree with you that this isn't a black and white conflict, nor should it be, and that MIB probably isn't 'evil incarnate' (I mean, he has fairly normal motives, that we know of), I think we can pretty much come to the conclusion at this point that if MIB escapes, some pretty bad shit is going down. And what we've seen of the ATL is that for the most part everything's kind of better.

...

So that leaves, "What happened to Jacob and MIB in the ATL?" still sitting there, I guess, and I am very excited to see.

Edit:
huntingbear said:
i wonder if Daniel is going to use Desmond as his constant from the alt timeline ?!
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Don't quite see what you mean, seeing as he's dead in the regular timeline.
 
Given what we learnt about the flash-sideways universe this episode, the whole concept is starting to feed directly into what the Man in Black offered Sayid in Sundown.

MIB: What if I told you that you could have anything you wanted. What if I said you can have anything in the entire world?

SAYID: I would tell you that the only thing I ever wanted, died in my arms, and I'll never see it again.

MIB: What if you could?

What if you could?
 
You're on the right track, I think, Samon. I think it is becoming clearer and clearer that the ALT reality may very well be a construct, with MIB as the architect.
 
Samon said:
Given what we learnt about the flash-sideways universe this episode, the whole concept is starting to feed directly into what the Man in Black offered Sayid in Sundown.

MIB: What if I told you that you could have anything you wanted. What if I said you can have anything in the entire world?

SAYID: I would tell you that the only thing I ever wanted, died in my arms, and I'll never see it again.

MIB: What if you could?

What if you could?
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But that isn't what happens to the ALT Sayid. Even aside from the fact that he's still basically a murderous psychopath, he's humble and doesn't choose her. He pushes Nadia to his brother, and the most he gets with her is longing stares across the kitchen table. Maybe I'm crazy, but I wouldn't consider that "having" the "only thing I ever wanted".

I don't know exactly what's going on, but I can't see the alternate reality being something that Smokey could have, or would have, created. It's also worth noting that - in the alt - Penny is still Daniel's half-sister, but he actually knows it, and yet Charles and Eloise are still very much together.
 
Samon said:
Maybe you are a dummy.
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You'll be recieving my tear-stained apology request soon.
Yorick said:
I don't know exactly what's going on, but I can't see the alternate reality being something that Smokey could have, or would have, created. It's also worth noting that - in the alt - Penny is still Daniel's half-sister, but he actually knows it, and yet Charles and Eloise are still very much together.
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Noticed that as well. Did we never actually find out who Pene's mother is or did I just forget it? It's probably also worth noting that ATL Sayid seemed to be reflecting numb Sayid's lack of feeling when he rescued Jin. Neither of them seem to be any position to even give a shit whether they can have Nadia.
 
Corp. Sheepo said:
Noticed that as well. Did we never actually find out who Pene's mother is or did I just forget it? It's probably also worth noting that ATL Sayid seemed to be reflecting numb Sayid's lack of feeling when he rescued Jin. Neither of them seem to be any position to even give a shit whether they can have Nadia.
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Yeah, I noticed that too about Sayid. At first glance I thought it was a flaw on the actor's part, but perhaps you're right. And no, I don't think we ever found out who Penny's mother is.
 
Yorick said:
But that isn't what happens to the ALT Sayid. Even aside from the fact that he's still basically a murderous psychopath, he's humble and doesn't choose her. He pushes Nadia to his brother, and the most he gets with her is longing stares across the kitchen table. Maybe I'm crazy, but I wouldn't consider that "having" the "only thing I ever wanted".
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But she's alive. I wouldn't take the Man in Black's promise so literally; I don't think the conditions of it are particularly important to him. It's like Rawls' thought experiment. You get to go again, but you don't get to choose how it turns out. What's more, Eloise Hawking seems to have a firm understanding of what's happening, and is it not Eloise Hawking that the form of Christian Shephard encouraged Locke to seek out off the Island?
 
Anyone seen that old, cheesy movie with Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley called 'Bedazzled'? The lead character sings his soul to the devil in exchange for having his wishes granted. Each one is granted in a way he doesnt expect, resulting in having to scrap the whole scenario altogether (for example he wishes for fortune.. so the devil makes him a wanted Columbian druglord who cannot speak English). I'm not implying that's what is exactly happening here, but the conceptualization is important.
 
You have a plethora of classic literature and ancient mythology and folklore to draw upon for exhanges with the Devil and you - you use Bedazzled?

bedazzled.jpg


WE DON'T DO THESE THINGS BRADLEY.
 
Yes, obviously, there's a Monkey's Paw type of dynamic to the MIB's promise. Sayid must give in to his violent and lethal nature to win MIB's favor, and in doing so becomes empty inside and loses the real value of his reward. But the exact nature of the reward's what I'm interested in. Do those who comply with the MIB have themselves inserted into the ATL in some sort of consciousness transfer? But if you consider that people who comply with MIB are at risk, the Monkey Paw theory loses it's value. Claire and Sayid are the only ones to truly sell themselves to him, but what's the twist for her? She could have Charlie and she is safe with Aaron.
 
Samon said:
You have a plethora of classic literature and ancient mythology and folklore to draw upon for exhanges with the Devil and you - you use Bedazzled?

bedazzled.jpg


WE DON'T DO THESE THINGS BRADLEY.
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It was the first thing that came to mind. :p
 
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