Marijuana

[superjuanchango]

Its like saying doing coke doesn't lead to people sucking dick on the street for money. From personal experience, I have seen many people who were changed in a negative way after heavy usage of marijuana. Getting good grades, then bad after smoking more. Having alot of friends, to none and just smoking. I don't have a study or statistic because it would be impossible to get, its not somthing that can be researched. THC, you named two successfull people, one who USED to. I am not denying that there are successfull people who smoke (see: rap) but it doesn't prove any point whatsoever.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

doctors smoke it, lawers toke it, rappers roll it, my dog smokes it

anyway, it's all about the ballance, i say smoke it, but not too much

dave chapel smokes it, jon stward smokes it, the whole SNL crew tokes it up before the show

 

[Absinthe]

Its like saying doing coke doesn't lead to people sucking dick on the street for money. From personal experience, I have seen many people who were changed in a negative way after heavy usage of marijuana. Getting good grades, then bad after smoking more. Having alot of friends, to none and just smoking. I don't have a study or statistic because it would be impossible to get, its not somthing that can be researched. THC, you named two successfull people, one who USED to. I am not denying that there are successfull people who smoke (see: rap) but it doesn't prove any point whatsoever.

And I can say from personal experience that I know many smokers that went on to do just fine in life and actually became successful, and I have seen more people flush their lives down the toilet because of alcohol. In fact, I know many more people that have done so without drugs, but with the likes of TV and video games. (Somewhere in here is a lesson about moderation that's so obvious that I shouldn't have to say it outright)

So who is to say that your personal experience is more valid than mine, or that mine is more valid than yours? Do you now see the importance of quantitative data and research when making an assertion?

 

[iyfyoufhl]

And I can say from personal experience that I know many smokers that went on to do just fine in life and actually became successful, and I have seen more people flush their lives down the toilet because of alcohol. In fact, I know many more people that have done so without drugs, but with the likes of TV and video games. (Somewhere in here is a lesson about moderation that's so obvious that I shouldn't have to say it outright)

So who is to say that your personal experience is more valid than mine, or that mine is more valid than yours? Do you now see the importance of quantitative data and research when making an assertion?

so true

 

[baron insig]

u do iunderstand what is going to happen to this threaD? Weed> all

 

[Direwolf]

I can't really give an opinion since all the smokers I know are also alcoholics.
Although that might say something about their personality.

 

[Foxtrot]

u do iunderstand what is going to happen to this threaD? Weed> all

wo d00d u r like tottaly riht

 

[iyfyoufhl]

joims, ur the type of person that will keep weed illegal :/ plz give up now

i bet you'd like gang bangs to be made legal as well

 

[Foxtrot]

i bet you'd like gang bangs to be made legal as well

They are illegal?

 

[superjuanchango]

I am not saying every person who smokes goes into a downward spiral, and I am not saying that I wanted to have people name celebrities. Whoever got that out of what I said must be...well...smoking something. I am also not stating your personal experiences are not valid, but do you know no one whose life got messed up because of it? How about someone’s life that was messed up because they didn't smoke weed? I will be here waiting for your answer.

 

[Absinthe]

I am not saying every person who smokes goes into a downward spiral, and I am not saying that I wanted to have people name celebrities. Whoever got that out of what I said must be...well...smoking something. I am also not stating your personal experiences are not valid, but do you know no one whose life got messed up because of it? How about someone’s life that was messed up because they didn't smoke weed? I will be here waiting for your answer.

I know one person who has grown slightly more lazy, but that's about it. But your second question confuses me as to what its intent may be. No, I've not seen anybody screw up their lives for NOT smoking weed, but I've seen plenty of these same people screw up their lives with other things. What's your point?

Some people are abusers. They have always existed and they always WILL exist. Why should persons A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I be punished because person J is a ****tard?

 

[Absinthe]

did i say i know no one? i know plenty of people who have b/c of it and plenty of people who have not b/c of it. That arguement is invalid, people can screw their lives up fine w/o the help of any substance.

Very true. Might as well ban everything!

 

[Foxtrot]

I know one person who has grown slightly more lazy, but that's about it. But your second question confuses me as to what its intent may be. No, I've not seen anybody screw up their lives for NOT smoking weed, but I've seen plenty of these same people screw up their lives with other things. What's your point?

Some people are abusers. They have always existed and they always WILL exist. Why should persons A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I be punished because person J is a ****tard?

To you it is like that, but to me it is why should person A, B, and C be punished when everyone else is a ****tard?

 

[kmack]

To you it is like that, but to me it is why should person A, B, and C be punished when everyone else is a ****tard?

they shouldnt :E

 

[superjuanchango]

Very true. Might as well ban everything!

Slippery slope.

Fine, go smoke whatever you want and mess up your lives. You have given me no reason to think its somthing worth legalizing. All you have done is agreed with other potheads.

 

[Absinthe]

Slippery slope, jackoff.

Why the insult?

Fine, go smoke whatever you want and mess up your lives. You have given me no reason to think its somthing worth legalizing. All you have done is agreed with other potheads.

I see now. You've dispensed with the charade of actually having a decent and logical argument. Now you can rail against those darned potheads for whatever emotional impetus you may have without feeling fake.

You have given me no reason to think its somthing worth legalizing.

Hey, buddy. If you think that marijuana should remain illegal, then you should have no problem backing your views with evidence clearly detailing how pot is the bane you portray it to be. I don't need to explain why it should be legal any more than I should have to explain why sugar should be legal.

 

[burner69]

Slippery slope, jackoff.

Fine, go smoke whatever you want and mess up your lives. You have given me no reason to think its somthing worth legalizing. All you have done is agreed with other potheads.

No, I'm good for that, although I'll still have a smoke once in a while kthanxbye.

Let's draw a comparison for you here;
Let's say there's a drug that's physically and mentally addictive, it affects co-ordination, memory (both long term and short), causes depression, can lead people into poverty due to it's addictive nature and price... generally speaking it has the potential to do some nasty things. However 99% of people who take this drug have it only once in a while and it dosen't effect their jobs, or their college work or relationships. Now, because it's possible to go overboard on this drug and screw your life up should it be illegal?

...

Well actually it shouldn't, and isn't, it's alcohol.
Now, if we accept that while alcohol has it's problems, we don't let theat spoil it for the rest of us. So... why can't we do that for weed?

Weed can be habit forming (mentally addictive), lead to depression and paranioa, and many things similar to booze (although you won't become a loud mouth vioelnt pri*k on pot) however if smoked in sensible amounts, and at sensible times it causes probably less trouble than beer. So... why shouldn't we legalise it? If you can give me one valid reason I'll eat my stash.

Now, I wonder, are you the kind of person who has a genuine reason to want drugs to be kept illegal, or are you the kind that just hate the concept because you've been told "all drugs are bad (except those taxable ones)" "Anyone who takes drugs will ruin their lives" "All drug users are losers" etc.

Final note: Most problems with all drugs arise from their illegality. Par Example, I had a friend who used to take ectasy once a month at the weekend. He'd get mullered friday after work, ride the comedown saturday at home with his clubbing buddies, then spend sunday doing whatever took his fancy. Now, not once did his drug habit affect his work, he never came into work on drugs or on a comedown, because he was sensible about how often he did E he never felt that it was affecting him mentally in anyway.... then... one day at work he got a random drugs test, got fired straight away. He'd been working there for years and then just got fired. It's total bullcrap.

Prohibition ruins lives

Peace

 

[short recoil]

Well actually it shouldn't, and isn't, it's alcohol.
Now, if we accept that while alcohol has it's problems, we don't let theat spoil it for the rest of us. So... why can't we do that for weed?

I make the same point with firearm ownership but people always go mental.
That shows it's all about the views that you have been brought up with.
Some people see all drugs as pure evil, others see them as being ok in moderation.

Basically like with guns you end up with a massive argument that is based around personal opinion of the chosen object that is being discussed.

 

[burner69]

Yeah sorry, didn't have a chance read the entire thread.

Well IMO there should be no debate based on people's opinions of a substance being "evil" because its a load of crap.

We use drugs everyday, alcohol, coffee, aspirin, but these are all fine despite booze killing around 30'000 people in the UK a year, and presciption drugs being the 3rd biggest killer in the world.

I'm not quite sure exactly when and why western society went so fundamentally anti-drug, seeing as we'd been doing them for thousands of years and there was nothing really to hate about them. But if you look at the 1930s anti weed propaganda that laid the foundations for todays drug laws, they're laughable. Basically they said that as soon as you smoke weed you go totally, permanentally insane, will get an overwhelming desire to rape and murder, and generally be a state. Only recently have we started looking at the issue sensibly.

As for why should we legalise pot... well... because less people would take it.

Holland has legalised it (not quite true, but effectively so) and since doing so has seen a decline in cannabis use. Coincidently Holland has a lower % of population smoking weed than either the UK or the US (when you legalise something you remove the 'cool' aspect of it, and take control of its distribution). I believe some south european countries have also decriminalised all drugs (meaning it's not illegal to be in possession of drugs) and the authorities say its been great, freeing up resources, and with no effect on crime, poverty etc.

People like to think drugs are linked to so many bad things in life, when it's usually a load of crap.

If our anti-drug friend would like a reasonable, logical debate I'll be willing to debate him on the issue of legalising weed, however I feel a "reasonable, logical" debate is just not possible on this issue.

Peace

 

[Foxtrot]

Yeah sorry, didn't have a chance read the entire thread.

Well IMO there should be no debate based on people's opinions of a substance being "evil" because its a load of crap.

We use drugs everyday, alcohol, coffee, aspirin, but these are all fine despite booze killing around 30'000 people in the UK a year, and presciption drugs being the 3rd biggest killer in the world.

I'm not quite sure exactly when and why western society went so fundamentally anti-drug, seeing as we'd been doing them for thousands of years and there was nothing really to hate about them. But if you look at the 1930s anti weed propaganda that laid the foundations for todays drug laws, they're laughable. Basically they said that as soon as you smoke weed you go totally, permanentally insane, will get an overwhelming desire to rape and murder, and generally be a state. Only recently have we started looking at the issue sensibly.

As for why should we legalise pot... well... because less people would take it.

Holland has legalised it (not quite true, but effectively so) and since doing so has seen a decline in cannabis use. Coincidently Holland has a lower % of population smoking weed than either the UK or the US (when you legalise something you remove the 'cool' aspect of it, and take control of its distribution). I believe some south european countries have also decriminalised all drugs (meaning it's not illegal to be in possession of drugs) and the authorities say its been great, freeing up resources, and with no effect on crime, poverty etc.

People like to think drugs are linked to so many bad things in life, when it's usually a load of crap.

If our anti-drug friend would like a reasonable, logical debate I'll be willing to debate him on the issue of legalising weed, however I feel a "reasonable, logical" debate is just not possible on this issue.

Peace

Can you find a source on your statistics?

 

[burner69]

Can you find a source on your statistics?

No problem

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm

It's really very simple when you spell it out; legalising pot (and indeed any drug) gives the government almost total control over it, only then can you start really dealing with issues about its use.

For example cannabis is illegal, alcohol is not. Now (this may depend on a number of factors but generally people's answers are the same) when you were, say, 15, what was harder to get hold of if you wanted it? Pot or beer? Well, let's think about this; If I wanted beer I couldn't march into a shop and buy it, I'd have to get someone else who's old enough to get it for me. It's possible to do, but hardly simplistic.
Now, if I wanted pot what did I do? Ask my dealer, who then sold me some. No ID required, no older brother required.

Some people might say that even if you legalise pot there'll still be a black market. There would be, but it'd be insignificant: Nowadays the average eighth is about £15-20 depending on the dealer, availability, and quality. The thing is, out of that money a lot goes towards the "danger pay" that goes to the people smuggling it across borders, and so the price is pushed up somewhat by that. Legalising it would remove the danger element, leaving a nice gap in the price to fill with tax. Bingo, no difference in price and yet we're getting revenue for it (if it were legalsied it's estimated there'd be £6bn taxable pounds extra each year)
Now anyone who smokes here knows that often the quality of the solids is lacking, and often the skunk could be a little smellier. If the drug were legalised and grown and sold by companies the quality would go up a lot - just look at the THC count in Holland's weed outlets. People who know their stuff will pay extra for this, believe me - because you need to smoke less to get high, and the high is much better. Therefore if anyone has the choice between buying good legal stuff, or dodgy illegal stuff for pretty much the same price, guess what they'd do....
If no-one buys illegal weed, there'd be no market for it - *poof* goodbye weed dealers.

As for other drugs being legalised? Well, why not. The more control you take over them the fewer problems there are.
Ectasy for example is often cut with paracetamol which can lead to alergic reactions in people suseptable to the substance and can lead to problems. Produce them legally and safely and *poof* suddenly they aren't cut with crap and the number of people getting ill off pills is greatly reduced.

Another good reason to legalsie drugs is that is stops excluding a massive proportion of the population from society. 50% of people in the UK have at least tried cannabis, making them effectively criminals, 500'000 people every weekend take ectasy - all liable to 7 years in prison. Legalise drugs, show that we actually do believe in freedom to do what you want (so long as it doesn't harm others) and stop criminisling otherwise law-abiding citizens.

 

[superjuanchango]

I will read this all when I don't have a 102 temp, I did see somone say making it legal would reduce the use, which is just silly. If you compare it to another country its a fallacy in itself because of the cultural and historical differences. Also if you want to play that card, look up the rampant drug addiction rates in Amsterdam. Also I remember seeing somone say somthing about somthing else...ill get to that later.
*goes back to sleep*

 

[Absinthe]

Holland has the lowest number of hard drug addictions in Europe. What are you on about.

 

[superjuanchango]

Ah, going to go ahead and blame that on the temperature. I’ll retract that statement.

burner69, however, your analogy is false. It is no harder for teens to get alcohol than it is marijuana. Your scenario only applies if there is no way to get beer from others. The difference is ANYONE over 21 can get alcohol. Do some research, more teens drink alcohol than smoke pot.

Also your statement about people taking drugs making them into criminals is just plain silly. The same argument can be applied to any illegal action. Are you doing to defend this as well?

-The percentage of state prison inmates who reported being under the influence of drugs at the time of their offense was almost thirty-three percent (33%) (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997).

-An estimated 61,000 (16%) of convicted jail inmates committed their offense to get money for drugs (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2000).

Source: http://www.safetycops.com/drug_related_crimes.htm

 

[iyfyoufhl]

I will read this all when I don't have a 102 temp, I did see somone say making it legal would reduce the use, which is just silly. *

it's easer to a teen to get weed than alchohol

 

[superjuanchango]

Proof of that? From a valid source, please.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

Proof of that? From a valid source, please.

yeah, i've been a teen for 7 years, there is your proof

 

[Absinthe]

Also your statement about people taking drugs making them into criminals is just plain silly. The same argument can be applied to any illegal action. Are you doing to defend this as well?

There is a world of difference between murder and consumption of marijuana. You may not be involved in illegal activity (sans smoking weed), but spending time in prison and being subjected to that kind of community can make a criminal out of anybody.

-The percentage of state prison inmates who reported being under the influence of drugs at the time of their offense was almost thirty-three percent (33%) (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997).

A dubious statistic. "Drugs" can mean anything.

-An estimated 61,000 (16%) of convicted jail inmates committed their offense to get money for drugs (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2000).

Another problem that could be solved with legalization.

 

[Absinthe]

Proof of that? From a valid source, please.

It's not so much a matter of evidence as it is common sense.

Buying beer from a shop requires ID. The drug dealer doesn't.

Buying beer requires you to be of a certain age. The drug dealer doesn't care how old you are.

The liquor shop you're purchasing from is in a designated area (you generally won't find these around schools). Drug dealers will not only peddle their substances around school, but also in school as well.

The only barriers are the risk of being caught and the use of anti-drug scare tactics. By itself, however, the process is far simpler than buying beer ever has been.

 

[superjuanchango]

iyfyoufhl: I have been a teenager for the same amount of time. Its been easier to get my hands on alcohol.

Absinthe: That statistic of "drugs" is dealing with illegal drugs. Also, you cannot prove people will suddenly gain the money for drugs if it were made legal. And again trying to decriminalize people who do criminal things, just because you don't see it as a bad thing doesn’t make it any less illegal.

Common sense? Fake IDs are readily available and easier and easier to get. You can even buy them online. Some people have morals who don't consider drinking on the same level as toking. More people have access to alcohol than to drugs, so common sense says more people can get alcohol. There are more people who sell alcohol than drugs. Common sense is not on your side.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

did you know that more kids used drags after the D.A.R.E progrem, than kids who weren't in that program

 

[superjuanchango]

What the hell are you talking about? When did I argue that? The DARE program is a worthless shitty program. I never mentioned it. What does that even attempt to prove? Playing devils advocate: I actually researched that fairly recently, only some (see: barely any) areas had an increase, most showed no change. The areas with increase were most likely coincidental, so your point, other than being worthless and irrelevant, is also not 100% true.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

What the hell are you talking about? When did I argue that? The DARE program is a worthless shitty program. I never mentioned it. What does that even attempt to prove? Playing devils advocate: I actually researched that fairly recently, only some (see: barely any) areas had an increase, most showed no change. The areas with increase were most likely coincidental, so your point, other than being worthless and irrelevant, is also not 100% true.

wow, take a chill pill, i just mentioned it without any relation to you or your posts

 

[Pesmerga]

Who doesnt smoke/has smoked?

Umm, alot of healthy people who aren't complete dumbasses.

Sure, drinking excessively is more dangerous than marijuana, it's still a pretty *dumb* lifestyle to follow. Don't go think it's "alright" just like alot of people think it's "alright" to drink alchohol excessively. It's a serious health issue either way.

 

[Absinthe]

Absinthe: That statistic of "drugs" is dealing with illegal drugs.

And I'm very curious as to where most of these crimes were committed. These occurrences are far more frequent in poorer areas. And of that statistic, it fails to say how many of these murders were done under the influence of marijuana.

Also, you cannot prove people will suddenly gain the money for drugs if it were made legal.

And I never said such a thing. But when you start going into illegal territory, this is the kind of thing that will happen. There's no substance control, and there's not an open forum where people can readily recieve help. This shit just goes with the territory drugs are placed in. Do you see people murdering others to get beer money?

And again, this statistic does not say how many of these crimes were committed for getting weed money. You're painting with a broad brush. Besides, I put the blame where it squarely belongs: on the individual that committed the crime. If they abuse their substances and resort to illegal activity, then I don't see why everybody else should be punished for it.

And again trying to decriminalize people who do criminal things, just because you don't see it as a bad thing doesn’t make it any less illegal.

The entire debate is about wether or not it should be illegal. Why do you insist on using this circular reasoning? You're not going anywhere when the best you can come up with is "it's illegal because it's illegal". You're only doing some serious question begging.

Common sense? Fake IDs are readily available and easier and easier to get. You can even buy them online.

Getting weed doesn't even require that. Most people won't go through the time and effort to buy a fake ID. And you can buy weed online as well. So what's your point? Marijuana is still far more accessible than alcohol is simply because it has less barriers in its way.

More people have access to alcohol than to drugs, so common sense says more people can get alcohol. There are more people who sell alcohol than drugs. Common sense is not on your side.

This is only due to the risk factor and anti-drug "bad is bad" indoctrination. This is because of the stigma that officials have perpetuated for years and years without any factual backing. If you would actually make a reasonable comparison, you'd see that I'm entirely correct. If I'm not, then you will explain EXACTLY how I'm wrong.

Some people have morals who don't consider drinking on the same level as toking.

Actually, forget the challenge I just made. I'd rather not debate a person who is only going to piss on his opponents with cheap jabs (that are entirely unsupported btw) because of his overly self-righteous nature. Ciao.

 

[superjuanchango]

I am not saying "bad is bad", I am saying "illegal is illegal." Just because you do not think something should be illegal does not make the peoples actions any less unlawful.

When I showed you that many of the crimes were from people getting money for drugs you said it was because it was illegal. So, yes, you did say the need for money for drugs would be gone if it were made legal. How else would decriminalizing it make it so people did not have to do anything to get money for it?

If you are going down the road of "fake IDs are not required to get pot!" I can say that "doing illegal things are not required to get alcohol!" All it takes is an age, and once you reach that age you can get it. Giving it to minors is the only illegal thing, but obtaining it in the first place is not illegal.

And my moral statement isn't attacking your morals; I was saying some peoples morals are anti drugs. Not that everyone with morals. You read into what I said wrong.

 

[willyd]

I am not saying "bad is bad", I am saying "illegal is illegal." Just because you do not think something should be illegal does not make the peoples actions any less unlawful.

When I showed you that many of the crimes were from people getting money for drugs you said it was because it was illegal. So, yes, you did say the need for money for drugs would be gone if it were made legal. How else would decriminalizing it make it so people did not have to do anything to get money for it?

If you are going down the road of "fake IDs are not required to get pot!" I can say that "doing illegal things are not required to get alcohol!" All it takes is an age, and once you reach that age you can get it. Giving it to minors is the only illegal thing, but obtaining it in the first place is not illegal.

And my moral statement isn't attacking your morals; I was saying some peoples morals are anti drugs. Not that everyone with morals. You read into what I said wrong.

There is no problem with your reasoning but the statistic. Your statistic applies to ALL drugs. One large difference between marijuana and other drugs is the chemical addiction. Heavy Users of marijuana are not chemicaly addicted and will not go through any kind of withdrawl. Users of other drugs such as cocaine, which is heavily addictive, need their drug to function normally.

 

[superjuanchango]

There is still a mental addiction, and while its not nearly as strong as the addiction put fourth by coke or heroine its still existent. The need for money for the drugs will still be there, as will people doing illegal things for it.

 

[willyd]

But you can have a psycological addiction to anything. I mean everything should be banned if you want to talk about psycological addictions.

In fact i should arrest you for being addicted to posting on politics forums. I mean thats really the same boat.

Now coke, heroin, caffine, nicotine, etc have CHEMICAL addicitons meaning that your brain needs the drug to function.

 

[superjuanchango]

Number One:

In fact i should arrest you for being addicted to posting on politics forums. I mean thats really the same boat.

LOL! WACKY WACKY! LOL!

Number Two:
Not such a strong psychological addiction that marijuana puts upon its users. Also those do not have such a long-term effect such as memory loss.