Religion:The stupidest thing invented by mankind?

[PvtRyan]

You kind of guy take words literally. The definition is here but you can make fun of it. Do you really know how to play with words?

You're the one who called atheists just as bad as Christians when it comes to mindless "believing" which is by definition WRONG. Again, atheism is not believing in a God, it isn't believing there is no God.

 

[bbson john]

atheism is not believing in a God, it isn't believing there is no God.

Can a person really do that?

 

[PvtRyan]

Can a person really do that?

Yes. You are an atheist too when it comes to most gods. You don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Poseidon or Allah either do you? "Some just go one god further" - Richard Dawkins.

I do not believe there is a Zeus, I however do not, believe there is no Zeus. Semantics are cool.

 

[bbson john]

So what is the word to describle guys(believe in no god) here?

 

[DeusExMachina]

...Atheists :|.

 

[PvtRyan]

...Atheists :|.

Uh no. How hard is it? An atheist is someone who does NOT believe in a god. He asked for what someone is called who believes there is no god. Distinct difference. I don't know the answer to it, don't think there is a name for that.

 

[Raeven0]

Uh no. How hard is it? An atheist is someone who does NOT believe in a god. He asked for what someone is called who believes there is no god. Distinct difference. I don't know the answer to it, don't think there is a name for that.

I would propose the name antitheist: theism "belief in supernatural forces", a- "not, lack of", anti- "against, opposite"; antitheism "against theism", atheism "lack of theism". Both anti- and theism have Greek origins, so the match makes sense etymologically.

Most people just say strong atheist (antitheist) or weak atheist (atheist), though.

Edit: It looks like I came up with an idea that had already been around for 200 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism :hmph:

 

[CrazyHarij]

i think what most of the atheists here are missing is that atheism is, to an extent, a belief. it's actively dismissing the possibility of supernatural forces

i can prove this by simple asking what do you believe? you can't prove for a fact that there is no god, so you simply believe there is none, according to your personal conviction after what youve logically extracted from what you've read and seen

everything is a ****ing belief, apart from the constructs of reality. i believe society is going downhill, but blue simply IS blue. stones are hard, pillows are soft, both ass and tits rule, but i personally believe ass rules more than tits.. there's a significant distinction between fact and belief.

atheism is not the absence of a belief
not believing in a god is the same as believing in there is no god, saying you dont believe is like saying you don't have any thoughts on the matter at all

quite possibly you're venturing into the aspects of agnosticism

anyway, consider this

"i believe the celtics will win this weekend", "i believe we can accomplish alot with cell research", "i believe you're wrong"

don't take your own thoughts as fact just because you denounce the validity of a stupid religion

by the way, i'm an atheist myself

 

[Tr0n]

Ass indeed rules more then tits, but I prefer that balance. Some ass and some tits.

 

[PvtRyan]

Harij, have you actually like, you know... read this page?

Atheism is by definition an absence of belief, not a belief in absence.

And that does not mean I don't have thoughts on the matter. But those thoughts are based on reason, not faith. I can't say I believe in for example evolution, I however do see it as the best fitting theory to explain biodiversity.

And believing everyday stuff is a whole different matter from these kind of fundamental problems. If I believe <sports team> is gonna win the game tomorrow, it's a presumption based on lack of information on my part.

If that game was the fundamental question humanity was struggeling with, you could gather all information in the world and analyze it to draw conclusions on the odds of the team winning the game. If it would conclude the team had a 72% chance of winning, that wouldn't be a belief, but a conclusion drawn from reasoning.

But no one does that, there's too much information to analyze for such a trivial thing. So therefor I say I believe the team will win tomorrow. Because I lack the information to state anything else than my beliefs.

But with big issues like the origin of life, you do have those investigations. So you could look at the evidence -or lack of- and draw your conclusions through reasoning.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

i think what most of the atheists here are missing is that atheism is, to an extent, a belief. it's actively dismissing the possibility of supernatural forces

Everyone says there's the "possibility" of a supernatural force that we must accept.

But if you do the math (which I did), it is physically impossible to actively disbelieve in every "possible" type of god.

At the same time, all gods are inherently impossible to believe in, since their pantheon in the human imagination is infinite.

The chance of believing in the "correct" god is zero.
Thus, all belief without evidence is meaningless.

Write a list of every possible god, and I will tell you which I believe in and which I actively disbelieve in.
You can't write an infinite list though.

So instead of actively disbelieving (which is impossible), I am just passively saying "fuck that shit, 'til you give me the money".

 

[Ennui]

you guys need to stop associating god and supernatural force

i don't believe in god (and I'm pretty much antitheist in that I believe there is no god) but i do believe in plenty of stuff like souls, dualism, forces we cannot see, etc.

 

[dream431ca]

Belief inspires hope for something. So if you believe in Atheism, then you hope there is no God. Same goes for Christianity, If you believe in Christianity than you hope there is a God. IMO Beliefs should be kept to yourself. The world cannot survive on a single person's belief. Furthermore, within the belief topic, I can tell you that a belief can start a war or end a war, and where does all this end? Humans. It's humans who make up the beliefs, it's humans that start the wars because of their beliefs and it's humans that are really stupid when it comes to beliefs.

I see this everyday where I work. I work in a Casino at the moment. Do you know what losers I have to deal with everyday? They Believe they will be the next one to win the big jackpot, they believe they will become rich and what really happens to them? They lose EVERYTHING, their house, their car, their family, and sometimes their life.

So whatever you believe in, don't force other people to believe the same thing you do, don't take your belief over the edge (meaning don't think of it as life and death), and for the love of god, Don't ever spend money at a casino or you might end up dead like some of my customers. See what a belief can do?

 

[dream431ca]

The chance of believing in the "correct" god is zero.
Thus, all belief without evidence is meaningless.

Evidence is meaningless for a belief. You don't need evidence for a belief. You surely don't need evidence of a god or an afterlife. You can only hope. That's what a belief is.

 

[CrazyHarij]

you guys need to stop associating god and supernatural force

i don't believe in god (and I'm pretty much antitheist in that I believe there is no god) but i do believe in plenty of stuff like souls, dualism, forces we cannot see, etc.

i totally agree with you. i think if there is any god, it's us
i just dont think the universe works in the sense of a god creating and ruling over everything, its far too much of a human idea

And that does not mean I don't have thoughts on the matter. But those thoughts are based on reason, not faith. I can't say I believe in for example evolution, I however do see it as the best fitting theory to explain biodiversity.

but thoughts are beliefs too, no matter whether they're based on observation and reason or personal conviction or faith.

this is all a slightly odd dicussion of semantics

i dont believe in god is the same as saying i believe god doesnt exist

i dont believe in god sounds like god exists, but you refuse to believe in him. satanism?

Evidence is meaningless for a belief. You don't need evidence for a belief. You surely don't need evidence of a god or an afterlife. You can only hope. That's what a belief is.

A belief is personal conviction or assumption. If you've read alot of stuff on evolution and it seems like the most reasonable thing to you, what do you say you do? You believe in it. You haven't had the entire universe shown and explained to you, but it seems like the most plausible thing comparing the alternatives.

belief isn't just religious belief

 

[DeusExMachina]

It's called Faith.

 

[dream431ca]

It's called Faith.

Faith is usually associatied with religion. A belief can be associated with almost anything. It's about hope.

 

[Cole]

So if you believe in Atheism, then hope there is no God.

I do not care if there is a god or if there isn't. However until I am given proof I wont believe in him. You must prove it to me otherwise I have no reason to believe in him.

For example:
In court you must prove to the jury that the man commited the crime.
You must prove to me that god does exist.

In court the defense doesn't have to prove a damn thing if the offensive can't prove a damn thing.
I don't have to have proof that he doesn't exist.

I do not care if there is a god or not. I really don't. I consider myself an Atheist. I simply don't think there are any Gods because lack of proof. If you can prove it to me ok thats great you were right. K I will believe that he exists now.

Anyways, I wont bow down to some ruler who has to be "omgz I pwn you fool". I will never bow down to a King or Ruler of any type. Never.

 

[CrazyHarij]

yeah, fight the man, cole!

by the way, you sound more agnostic to me

 

[dream431ca]

I do not care if there is a god or if there isn't. However until I am given proof I wont believe in him. You must prove it to me otherwise I have no reason to believe in him.

For example:
In court you must prove to the jury that the man commited the crime.
You must prove to me that god does exist.

In court the defense doesn't have to prove a damn thing if the offensive can't prove a damn thing.
I don't have to have proof that he doesn't exist.

I do not care if there is a god or not. I really don't. I consider myself an Atheist. I simply don't think there are any Gods because lack of proof. If you can prove it to me ok thats great you were right. K I will believe that he exists now.

Anyways, I wont bow down to some ruler who has to be "omgz I pwn you fool". I will never bow down to a King or Ruler of any type. Never.

What the hell is wrong with you? You are a fool and and a major fool at that. Since when do you need evidence of the existance of God? You don't need proof of something like that. What you need is something called FAITH. If you want proof of some God, Sign up for Scientology.

 

[Cole]

by the way, you sound more agnostic to me

Agnostic is beliving there is no proof that there isn't a god or any proof that there is a god.

I am quite different. I default to no god until a god is proven. I am however willing to admit that I am wrong if someone proves it to me.

Since when do you need evidence of the existance of God? You don't need proof of something like that. What you need is something called FAITH. If you want proof of some God, Sign up for Scientology.

Actually I am god, I was just messing with you.

Obviously you don't need proof for something like this. Take it on faith.

 

[dream431ca]

Obviously you don't need proof for something like this. Take it on faith.

That's what I just said or typed as talking on a forum is impossible without microphone adaptation.

 

[Cole]

That's what I just said.

I know so go start up an Army and destroy the world by 5:00 a.m. GMT time.

 

[dream431ca]

I know so go start up an Army and destroy the world by 5:00 a.m. GMT time.

I'll leave that to the Americans

 

[Cole]

I'll leave that to the Americans

I guess they will be the only ones not going to Hell... of course..they could always.. fail.

MUAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



HAHHAHAHA.

 

[PvtRyan]

but thoughts are beliefs too, no matter whether they're based on observation and reason or personal conviction or faith.

Not according to the definition of belief:

be·lief Audio pronunciation of "belief" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lf)
n.

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

I don't have a conviction or trust when it comes to the fundamental questions of life.

When it comes to a matter that is yet unexplained by science, say consciousness or the exact nature of it, I can either say that I simply do not know what consciousness is (not a belief) or I could express my thoughts on it (not a belief if those thoughts are based on observations/evidence and not on presumptions) like "scientists have clues consciousness is a product of the entire brain". If you take those last thoughts, then you should be able to tell me what I believe if thoughts are also a belief.

this is all a slightly odd dicussion of semantics

i dont believe in god is the same as saying i believe god doesnt exist

It isn't. By that standard, a murderer that would eat candy would subsequently make everyone that eats candy a murderer.

Not believing in a God is the default state, atheism is the default neutral state. It's not a belief. I do not believe in a God because there is no reason (evidence) to.

Once you go into trying to disprove a God, then you indeed have a belief, you believe there is no God.

i dont believe in god sounds like god exists, but you refuse to believe in him. satanism?

That's perhaps because I specifically name him, the Christian God, but if I said "I do not believe in a god." (be it Zeus, Poseidon or whoever) then that point is no longer valid.

 

[Cole]

Not believing in a God is the default state, atheism is the default neutral state. It's not a belief. I do not believe in a God because there is no reason (evidence) to.

Exactly.

 

[PvtRyan]

This thread makes me wanna

Semantics are tiring =(

EDIT: Wut? Images disabled? GHEY!

 

[dream431ca]

i dont believe in god sounds like god exists, but you refuse to believe in him. satanism?

No Satanism is it's own belief. Satanism does not mean you don't believe in god it simply means you believe whatever Satanists believe in.

 

[Raeven0]

Since when do you need evidence of the existance of God? You don't need proof of something like that. What you need is something called FAITH.

I think the point we're missing (read: refusing to accept) is that in the absence of evidence, your faith is devoid and meaningless, almost surely misplaced, and altogether not worth the self-delusion.

Anyone with more brains than a celery stick would think me a fool for believing that I'd wake up tomorrow with nine arms, a pizza, and a title deed to the continent of Australia. It's no different.

 

[Absinthe]

i think what most of the atheists here are missing is that atheism is, to an extent, a belief. it's actively dismissing the possibility of supernatural forces

NO

NO

NO

Don't make me hurt you, Crazy...

 

[CrazyHarij]

It isn't. By that standard, a murderer that would eat candy would subsequently make everyone that eats candy a murderer.

that's a completely nonsensical analogy in this situation

i can't be arsed to discuss this anymore, because it really depends on what you consider a belief to be

atheism is not a religion, but it's believing that there is no god

an assumption, a conviction, whatever. belief is alot ismpler to say. not believing in something is the same as believing it doesnt exist or is relevant

BELIEF != RELIGIOUS BELIEF

do you get my point?

 

[Absinthe]

Except atheism isn't the belief that there is no God. An atheist can certainly believe that, but that's not a fundemental tenet of atheism by itself.

Big difference between an absence of belief and a belief in absence.

 

[PvtRyan]

that's a completely nonsensical analogy in this situation

i can't be arsed to discuss this anymore, because it really depends on what you consider a belief to be

atheism is not a religion, but it's believing that there is no god

an assumption, a conviction, whatever. belief is alot ismpler to say. not believing in something is the same as believing it doesnt exist or is relevant

I think belief is an assumption that isn't based on rationality (note: not necessarily irrationality) and me not believing there is no gods is perfectly rational because there is no real reason to believe there is one.

Believing there is no god is not rational, there is also no reason to assume there is no god. So therefor, not believing in a god is not the same as believing there is no god.

There, proven :naughty:

 

[CrazyHarij]

I think belief is an assumption that isn't based on rationality (note: not necessarily irrationality) and me not believing there is no gods is perfectly rational because there is no real reason to believe there is one.

Then what is an assumption based on rationality?

Believing there is no god is not rational, there is also no reason to assume there is no god. So therefor, not believing in a god is not the same as believing there is no god.

Why is it not rational? Not believing is renouncing your stance in the matter of god existing. Believing there is no god is just the same.

 

[PvtRyan]

Then what is an assumption based on rationality?

Don't know if there is a word for that (a theory?), or even if the word assumption is correctly chosen. But an assumption based on rationality is for example the theory of common descent. It assumes a common descent for all life based on mountains of evidence coming from the fossil records and genetics research. It isn't based on a belief, but on rationality.

Why is it not rational?

Because there is nothing that disproves God or the possibility of existence. So claiming God doesn't exist is without evidence backing it up is not rational. I don't see it as necessarily irrational however, but that's a whole other debate in semantics.

Not believing is renouncing your stance in the matter of god existing. Believing there is no god is just the same.

I'm not saying God doesn't exist, that's exactly it. So I'm not renouncing his existence, I don't acknowledge it however.

 

[Absinthe]

Then what is an assumption based on rationality?

A scientific theory or something believed due to repetition and/or persistently held up.

ie. The world won't turn pink tomorrow.

Why is it not rational? Not believing is renouncing your stance in the matter of god existing. Believing there is no god is just the same.

It most certainly is not. I don't believe I'll be hit by a car in my lifetime, but it's a possibility I keep in mind none the less.

"Strong" atheism would make the assertion that Gods do not exist, and the burden of proof would then be on its shoulders. "Weak" atheism makes no such assertions. I really can't think of a way to explain this any further. You either get it or you don't, unless somebody else can come along and explain it better than me. I don't deny the existence of Gods. I just don't acknowledge or bother with them.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Please, can we possibly not delve into the exact meanings of Atheism again? For the love of the absent God, can we please not get into this.

 

[Absinthe]

I can feel myself getting edgy already, but I just want to make that one thing clear.

 

[PvtRyan]

Well, it was sort of ontopic. The assertion that atheism is just like religion merely a belief, and thus stupid (if we assume religion is indeed stupid) was being discussed