That shadow bug from the crane picture still isn't fixed...

[fragShader]

i'm not going to take your bait, but do some research at least before you try acting clever.
the shadow system in HL2 has nothing to do with dynamic lights, they specify a global light direction per level, and each entity casts one shadow based on that static light source. the shadow color is also specified globally, and each entities shadow is alpha-blended into the frame buffer using that color.
if two shadows overlap, you will blend the shadow colour in twice. therefore, the glitch is inherent in the algorithm.

 

[Dynasty]

rofl, in the cbble map where there is the small sniper room (where you go up 1 set of ladders-not AT the t spawn but the one that overlooks the courtyard) with the 2 windows, the shadowing of the barrels in the corner to the left of the window point TOWARD the light source....

not very encouraging lol. probably be fixed in an update. just send bug reports with screenshots like i do :E

 

[Chode]

i'm not going to take your bait, but do some research at least before you try acting clever.
the shadow system in HL2 has nothing to do with dynamic lights, they specify a global light direction per level, and each entity casts one shadow based on that static light source. the shadow color is also specified globally, and each entities shadow is alpha-blended into the frame buffer using that color.
if two shadows overlap, you will blend the shadow colour in twice. therefore, the glitch is inherent in the algorithm.

Either you do know something, or you can copy and paste.

I am discussing shadows going straight through static objects.

 

[fragShader]

Either you do know something, or you can copy and paste.

why thanks.

I am discussing shadows going straight through static objects.

the only objects they go thru are other entities.

entity shadows are only cast on static BSP geometry.

BSP objects don't cast shadows, they use the radiosity lightmaps computed offline.

so an enities shadow will go right thru another entity. you can't fix that problem using projected shadows, you need to go to a different algorithm like shadow maps. Valve won't be changing that, it's a engine design decision.

 

[cadaveca]

C'mon, ya'all complain, but noone has even said the real reason why things look the way they do.

THIS is the reason the shadows are the way they are in CS:S:


it's the netcode. the shadows are tied into the "physics" of the game.
ex. The pc flys arross the room...and hits another object midair. What happens? Do you draw the shadows seperately from the object so you have 4 vectors(plus high dynamic range lighting, how the shadows travel up and down objects), with the collision? Or do you just bind the shadows to walls and floors, attached to the object, so you don't have to send so much data, and do more client-side? they way they do it means less lag.

I don't think HL2 SP will look like this. all the processing power going to managing the connection can go to those extras you are asking for.

 

[fragShader]

um...cadaveca, i don't know where to start with that post.

if they are sending shadow info in their netcode then Chode is right, they don't know how to code graphics, or much else.
shadows should be entirely client side. the client knows everything it needs to know to render shadows.

 

[cadaveca]

um...cadaveca, i don't know where to start with that post.

if they are sending shadow info in their netcode then Chode is right, they don't know how to code graphics, or much else.
shadows should be entirely client side. the client knows everything it needs to know to render shadows.

you hope. but watch it...the shadows when you make things weightless....i think it might just be the netcode.

but you're right. i'm tired, and going to bed very shortly..it's almost 3am.

 

[Gunner]

Someone mentions the shadow bug and the thread grows to a hundred posts every single time!

 

[fantasiser]

HL2 shadow bug!?
SOMEONE CALL 1997!!!!

Okay, so maybe 1997 is a bit over the top, but seriously people

 

[Arno]

it's the netcode. the shadows are tied into the "physics" of the game.
ex. The pc flys arross the room...and hits another object midair. What happens? Do you draw the shadows seperately from the object so you have 4 vectors(plus high dynamic range lighting, how the shadows travel up and down objects), with the collision? Or do you just bind the shadows to walls and floors, attached to the object, so you don't have to send so much data, and do more client-side? they way they do it means less lag.

When a PC in CS:S flies across the room, the server communicates only the position, the angles and the speed of the flying PC. The client receives the position of the PC and since the client already knows what the PC looks like, it can draw the PC at its correct position with the correct angles. The client also knows the position of the light source in the room and that's enough info to calculate the shadows on the client-side. There's really no need to transmit the shapes of shadows over the network.

 

[Yellonet]

Here are the facts:

The shadows in HL² aren't very good.

There are some people who wants things done right.

There are some fanboys who wouldn't dream of saying that something about HL² is bad. Nor do they want anyone else to say something diminishing about their loved game, thus they find it necessary to take a swing at anyone that expresses any such opinion about HL².

 

[PvtRyan]

Here are the facts:

The shadows in HL² aren't very good.

There are some people who wants things done right.

There are some fanboys who wouldn't dream of saying that something about HL² is bad. Nor do they want anyone else to say something diminishing about their loved game, thus they find it necessary to take a swing at anyone that expresses any such opinion about HL².

Right, sure what the hell, throw the "you're all fanboys! I hate you all!" argument into the ring. Why not, it always works, and it's a lot easier to win an argument this way.

Did it ever cross your mind that the shadows are this way for a reason? Do you think it's incompetence on the side of Valve? Are the programmers incapable?

At the last meeting:
"So we gotta fix this shadow bug sometime, our programmers suck so we need some new ones. I think about hiring some from id Software, those motherf*ckers can build some shadows man!" says Newell.
"No, sorry Gabe, I'm afraid that isn't gonna fit in our 40 million dollar budget" says Doug.
"Ok then, well I guess we'll have to stick to the shitty shadows then. Tough luck. OK, next subject, who keeps stealing the goddamn towels in the bathroom?"

Sure! Sounds plausible doesn't it?

Or maybe these shadows are just really cost effective to draw for the many objects on the screen without straining the system too much.

Hey, that could be a possibilty! Maybe, just maybe this is the best way to do it, dynamic shadows while still being able to draw LOTS of objects and without slowdown, and that has its drawbacks, just like the unified lighting model of Doom 3 has the drawback that it would slow to the pace of a turd through a funnel if it had to draw the amount of entities that HL2 has.

Someone here (programmer dude) already explained that you probably wouldn't be able to "fix" this without forcing restrictions on low end users.

That's no fanboyism sir, no, that's being realistic. Some people here want some magic shadowing system while retaining all the features of HL2, while losing sight of reality completely and forgetting about hardware limitations.

 

[Alec_85]

Here are the facts:

The shadows in HL² aren't very good.

There are some people who wants things done right.

There are some fanboys who wouldn't dream of saying that something about HL² is bad. Nor do they want anyone else to say something diminishing about their loved game, thus they find it necessary to take a swing at anyone that expresses any such opinion about HL².

Best post yet! The biggest gripe I have over the shadows a I've said before is that I simply find it annoting that this game has these "bugs" when no other games have ever had them since this industry started. I haven't seen them anyway

If anyone can point me to a game with similar problems (doom3 not included), then I'll shut up

 

[Chode]

Surely it can't be that hard to get the shadows right, but.

Even NVIDIA's hardware shadows manage to produce the same effect without glitch in this manner.

 

[Absinthe]

Here are the facts:

The shadows in HL² aren't very good.

There are some people who wants things done right.

There are some fanboys who wouldn't dream of saying that something about HL² is bad. Nor do they want anyone else to say something diminishing about their loved game, thus they find it necessary to take a swing at anyone that expresses any such opinion about HL².

And there are also some people that would like to bitch and moan about anything that isn't perfect. These people, who know **** all about coding, like to complain about these relatively small inconsistencies as if they had the ability to do much better. But you know what? The rest of the world couldn't really give a shit about overlapping shadows. Big whoop.
Yellonet, you once implied that I was some kind of fanboy when I gave some condescending reply to a criticism of HL2. Well, here's the thing. I have no great love for Valve, and I've expressed my less-than-kind opinion of them. And so I don't have a problem with criticism when it's reasonable. But people are freaking out over something that, to be honest, is not that big of a deal. So when people start accusing Valve of having bad programmers (for not having a ridiculous grab engine) or start bitching about how "rookie" something most people won't even ****ing care about looks, then you'll have to excuse me if I and others get a tad snarky.

You people are making mountains out of mole hills. Get used to the fact that the Source engine isn't freakin' perfect.

 

[Spybreak]

How many of the whiners here can actually PROGRAM a 3d engine with shadows? Not many I guess. Then HOW do you know if its a bug, or a limitation of how Valve has chosen to implement shadows in the game?

You want a solution? When the SDK comes out, FIX IT. But stop whining about a stupid "bug" that doesnt really detract from the game experience. Or will you actually be pinpointing out the shadow problems when a strider is blasting the hell out of you?

The problem was mentioned to valve MONTHS ago. They have obviously looked at it and if they havent fixed it its probably because IT CANT BE FIXED. So stop whining and play the game.

 

[Yellonet]

Right, sure what the hell, throw the "you're all fanboys! I hate you all!" argument into the ring. Why not, it always works, and it's a lot easier to win an argument this way.

Did it ever cross your mind that the shadows are this way for a reason? Do you think it's incompetence on the side of Valve? Are the programmers incapable?

At the last meeting:
"So we gotta fix this shadow bug sometime, our programmers suck so we need some new ones. I think about hiring some from id Software, those motherf*ckers can build some shadows man!" says Newell.
"No, sorry Gabe, I'm afraid that isn't gonna fit in our 40 million dollar budget" says Doug.
"Ok then, well I guess we'll have to stick to the shitty shadows then. Tough luck. OK, next subject, who keeps stealing the goddamn towels in the bathroom?"

Sure! Sounds plausible doesn't it?

Or maybe these shadows are just really cost effective to draw for the many objects on the screen without straining the system too much.

Hey, that could be a possibilty! Maybe, just maybe this is the best way to do it, dynamic shadows while still being able to draw LOTS of objects and without slowdown, and that has its drawbacks, just like the unified lighting model of Doom 3 has the drawback that it would slow to the pace of a turd through a funnel if it had to draw the amount of entities that HL2 has.

Someone here (programmer dude) already explained that you probably wouldn't be able to "fix" this without forcing restrictions on low end users.

That's no fanboyism sir, no, that's being realistic. Some people here want some magic shadowing system while retaining all the features of HL2, while losing sight of reality completely and forgetting about hardware limitations.

An erlier post I made in this thread:

Would it save resources if it only displayed on the first surface it encountered. Instead of projecting on multiple surfaces. I think doing it once and then having some code check to make sure it was only on the first surface it encountered would free up even more time.

Probably this shadow-system (allegedly)takes less processing time because it just projects right through everything and doesn't have to bother about checking where to make a stop.

I don't think anyone at Valve is incompetent.
I don't think HL² sucks just because the shadows is projected through certain objects.
I don't think that HL² sucks at all.

I do think that these kind of shadows are very good for the low end users.
I just dislike these kinds of compromises. Maybe there could be an option in the game about different shadows.

My post was just a way of saying that you should be able to post criticism against the game without being bashed.

 

[Yellonet]

And there are also some people that would like to bitch and moan about anything that isn't perfect. These people, who know **** all about coding, like to complain about these relatively small inconsistencies as if they had the ability to do much better. But you know what? The rest of the world couldn't really give a shit about overlapping shadows. Big whoop.

I don't count myself to the whining crowd. It's not really in my nature to whine about all sorts of stuff, I'm more of the suck-it-up-and-move-on type. But I do try to stand up for people who are being bashed for no good reason. If someone complains about the problem with the shadows, they shouldn't get a reply like: STFU do it better yourself! Ohh... crybaby run to mama! Who cares mothafukka! Or something like that.

Just because this shadow-thing isn't a big deal for you and me, it doesn't mean it's not a higly disturbing side-effect for someone else.

Yellonet, you once implied that I was some kind of fanboy when I gave some condescending reply to a criticism of HL2. Well, here's the thing. I have no great love for Valve, and I've expressed my less-than-kind opinion of them. And so I don't have a problem with criticism when it's reasonable. But people are freaking out over something that, to be honest, is not that big of a deal. So when people start accusing Valve of having bad programmers (for not having a ridiculous grab engine) or start bitching about how "rookie" something most people won't even ****ing care about looks, then you'll have to excuse me if I and others get a tad snarky.

You people are making mountains out of mole hills. Get used to the fact that the Source engine isn't freakin' perfect.

Maybe I was out of like calling you a fan-boy. Although I don't thin I did it directly Sorry.

Well, in my mind people have the right to freak out over this thing as it is obviously an error. An intentional error, but an error all the same. And when you know it's intentional it's even more irritating. But, calling the programmers incompetent and rookie and whatnot is just not cool, then they should be bashed :E

You're right, most people won't care about the "faulty" shadows. Then again, most people won't care about the HL² story either.

 

[PvtRyan]

An erlier post I made in this thread:



I don't think anyone at Valve is incompetent.
I don't think HL² sucks just because the shadows is projected through certain objects.
I don't think that HL² sucks at all.

I do think that these kind of shadows are very good for the low end users.
I just dislike these kinds of compromises. Maybe there could be an option in the game about different shadows.

My post was just a way of saying that you should be able to post criticism against the game without being bashed.

Was not just aimed purely at you, but shadow criticasters in general, that it doesn´t make any sense to do so because these shadows have been chosen for a reason. And disagreeing with criticism doesn´t make you a fanboy, sure I think these shadows can be ugly in many situations too, but they server their purposes and are being done for a reason.

 

[Falcon(Nate)]

PvtRyan, your post basically summed up my thoughts on the subject.

Think of Italy where there are lots of pieces of fruit that can be made into tinier pieces, or Office where there are computers (with individual pieces) and filing cabinets and trash cans.

Start making calculations for shadows for all of those things...then make checks to see if an object is occluding part of the shadow and not to draw that part of the shadow but to draw it on the object that occludes it... With several flying objects in the air, is it hard to see how those calculations would quickly add up? Especially on a map where someone decides to go physics crazy and put say a hundred movable objects.

And for those people who say "this hasn't been a problem before". You're right. But why is that? How many games have had shadows AND non-player-entity movable objects before say...oh...this year? Can you name one? No, I can't either.

Most games haven't had this problem because the props were static. They were part of the world, they didn't move. The shadows were pre-calculated. But now, to have shadows and objects that move with physics, you can't pre-calculate the shadows for those objects. That has to be done on the fly. It's an entirely different problem.

Right now, our hardware probably isn't capable of drawing super accurate shadows AND having that many objects on-screen at the same time. Sure, Valve could code it that way, but if everyone had 3 frames per second, how the heck could we play the game?

Once hardware gets better and keeps doing certain calculations faster and faster maybe an upgraded Source will do things differently.

Game designers have ALWAYS had to make conscious choices on their game's visual design based on what hardware they think their users will have to run their product. This isn't a new thing.

 

[DaFreak]

People, ...

They can calculate the impact of a grenade in a room full of stuff...
Your CPU then calculates millions of things. (Will objects affected by the grenade shatter, explode? Where do the objects or pieces of objects land. Are there walls in the room from which they have to bounce of AND NOT GO THROUGH , ...) Do you realy think calculating wether shadows can go through an entity is going to use up soooo much processor power? Not realy :/

Even if its a limitation it's still bad. I mean I love HL (before i get some comment thrown at me saying OH NO THE SHADOWS HL WILL TOTALY SUCK NOW) but you just can't go around the fact that this is a problem and if valve wants to make the best game ever then they should think of a way to solve it (even if that means cutting out some of the low end users because their cpu's can't handle it).

You can take it whatever way you want but even if its a limitation ITS STILL A BUG (a visual flaw). And there shouldn't be any bugs in a finished game.

Game designers have ALWAYS had to make conscious choices on their game's visual design based on what hardware they think their users will have to run their product. This isn't a new thing.

If this is truely the case then they should have thought of that in the first place. I don't want to have some stupid bug in my game cause some poor fellow with a Pentium I wouldn't be able to play it otherwise...

 

[Falcon(Nate)]

Your CPU then calculates millions of things.

*Sigh* Nevermind. I give up. Someone else try and explain it because obviously I'm not doing it well enough.

One last college try...

As for your grenade exploding analogy, it's not the same thing, and not as many calculations are needed. (Go play chateau in CS:S, throw a grenade into the room with the boards blocking it initially, and watch as everyone's FPS nearby on the server dips down into the single digits. Guess physics on server-side objects add up, eh? =P)

An explosion happens. Damage is dealt to certain objects depending on the radius they are from said explosion. The engine doesn't decide whether they "shatter" or "explode". It simply sees if the damage is greater than or equal to a certain damage threshold. If the damage dealt is great enough to say a table, then you swap in table pieces which fly in the appropriate direction due to the force vector. That's probably a simplification, but it's not very many calculations.

Light and shadows are a different matter. Current hardware can't make all of the physics calculations AND shadow calculations with everything Source is doing. I'm not talking about Pentium I's, I'm talking Pentium IV's and Radeon 9800 Pros.

If someone wants to go into the SPECIFICS about how lights and shadows have to be drawn and the difficulties with multiple overlapping/occluding objects, please do. Perhaps it will be the only way some of these people will understand that all of that stuff that happens on your computer screen isn't just magic and a lot of work has to go into it.

 

[Absinthe]

I don't see how a shadow glitch is going to stop HL2 from being the best game of all time. Most of the reviews have already stated that the bar has been raised.

 

[DaFreak]

Falcon, i dont see you proving that shadows take more calculations then the physics in your statement... There is a HL2 movie made by the students who went to valve that showed a room full of stuff and an exploding barrel. The game froze for like 4 seconds cause its that hard to calculate it. I never had any problems with calculating shadows before... basicly you are saying that this one added shadow feature: the ability to not project through solid objects requires more calculations then the entire physics engine and by adding that i will not be able to play HL2 anymore unless i have some nasa super computer? btw HL2 is sp what do server side calculations have to do with this?

IT LOOKS WRONG - IT'S NOT GOOD

I AM NOT SAYING I AM POSITIVE THAT THEY CAN CORRECT IT. but the fact remains its a bug and i'd rather not have it in the game if i had the choice...

HOW CAN ANYONE POSSIBLY DISAGREE WITH THIS!
i d rather not have any bugs in my game

I don't realy think anyone knows for sure what the problem is and why it hasn't been corrected yet.

To absinthe: its not gonna stop it from becoming the best game ever but it would be an even better game then it already is if the shadow bug wasn't there.

 

[Loke]

Oh no, the game is ruined.

Agreed, Half-Life 2 is going to be the worst game of this year... SHAME ON YOU VALVE!!

 

[fragShader]

just to throw fuel in the fire, fixing the problem the most obvious way won't really consume any extra CPU resources, it will just consume fillrate on your vidcard.

 

[Varsity]

Oh yeah, I'm sure your going to notice the shadow bug while your drooling over the detail in everything else, ROFL

Yes, you are quite sure. It's OK most of the time but it's in areas like that that I can't help but notice it.

 

[She]

I don't see how a shadow glitch is going to stop HL2 from being the best game of all time. Most of the reviews have already stated that the bar has been raised.

i still lol at that...

the best game of all time

Never going to happen... even if PCf**kface states it is the best game ever..
You know FPS isn't the only genre..

Most of the reviews have already stated that the bar has been raised.

Offcourse it's been raised.. DOOM3 raised the graphics bar...
HL2 will raise the AWFUL SHADOWS bar... (or atsleast the story/FPSgame bar)...
HL" isn't a revolution..
---------------------------------
And if that shadow thing isn't a bug, but a choise... that choise was... good?

Dont say that "BIG FIRE FIGHTS would slow down".. slow down???
Beacuse of those outdated 2-D shadows??...

Or "the calculations your graphicscard must do, to fix that ""bug"" would slow down the physics"..??

what???

Is your GPU like 3 years old or something?
bullshit.

 

[PvtRyan]

Do you realy think calculating wether shadows can go through an entity is going to use up soooo much processor power? Not realy :/

Yes it will. Because now the shadows don't take entities in consideration, it's a completely dfferent approach than what you are suggesting. The shadows are basically flattened contours of a model from a certain perspective. Basically a texture pasted over brushwork.

 

[Absinthe]

Offcourse it's been raised.. DOOM3 raised the graphics bar...
HL2 will raise the AWFUL SHADOWS bar... (or atsleast the story/FPSgame bar)...
HL" isn't a revolution..

This is why it's impossible for me to take anything you say seriously.

 

[seed007]

"She" you need to calm down, you sound like one of those people that insist that HL2 doesnt exist or some stupid thing like that. Im sure they'll get around to fixing as it is not a HUGE problem but it is a problem none the less. It didnt detract me from having a great time play CS:S so they should worry about getting the game released in my opinion (HL2 I mean).

 

[Parrot of doom]

I think if Valve were able to fix it easily, it would have been done by now. Really, there were no shadows in HL1 and people are still playing it aren't they?

 

[She]

Really, there were no shadows in HL1 and people are still playing it aren't they?

Welcome to the year 2004

 

[ukfluke]

she u have a really big thing for shadows lol. The thing that dissapointed me most after playing the stolen build was the geometry. Smooth curved surfaces are still not possible just like in the HL1 engine. Any mappers out there will know what i mean

 

[PvtRyan]

Welcome to the year 2004

... where we still are limited by hardware and your magical plans can't always be executed....

 

[DaFreak]

K i am not the second she although i do care about the shadow bug :/

HL2 will be and as a matter of fact already is a revolution with or without shadow bug.





She stfu and welcome to the future of gaming

 

[She]

She stfu and welcome to the future of gaming

Shadow bugs is the future of gaming?

 

[PvtRyan]

Shadow bugs is the future of gaming?

Are you really that ignorant or are you just a damn fine actor/actress (still don't know what you are)?
He calls HL2 the future of gaming, you question that shadow bugs are the future of gamin, but guess what? There's more to HL2 or any other game for that matter than graphical glitches, normal people tend to overlook those, some obviously don't. Don't be so damn bitter.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

http://www.csnation.net/image.php?id=33482

That camping picture is there for a purpose (to deter people from....Well, Camping )

 

[Gunner]

Here's a fix for all you haters:

r_shadows "0"

There you go, no more bug!