The Big Bang or God?

[Tyguy]

no ones is going to go out of their way to debate with you, if you dont like the discussion, tough

 

[Steve]

For all the Atheist out there I have a question for you. How do you live from day to day without getting extremly deppresed without really having anything that motivates you.

God isn't the only possible motivation, you know. In fact, many people who believe in god are MORE motivated, because they believe this is the only life they'll ever have, and are eager to make the most of it.

 

[CptStern]

For all the Atheist out there I have a question for you. How do you live from day to day without getting extremly deppresed without really having anything that motivates you.

the opposite is true ..I mean how do you keep on living knowing the next life will be better than this life? ..if this life is about doing things that will ensure you have a good afterlife isnt that the oopposite of jesus' teachings? arent you supposed to do good work regardless of personal gain? ...it's almost as if your entire existence is about payback .."I do good and I'm rewarded" ..well that's disingenuous

I would think being a Christian if nothing else would just be good for me just for the reason that I have somthing to be excited about. Plus if there is a God than you get to reap the reward instead of facing the consequences.

so in other words fear is your main motivator not faith ...you said as much when you made this statement:

Plus if there is a God than you get to reap the reward instead of facing the consequences

oh and this is just sad:

I would think being a Christian if nothing else would just be good for me just for the reason that I have somthing to be excited about

you look to death and the afterlife as more important than this life ...I mean there's zero evidence of an afterlife ..wouldnt it be counteerproductive to live this life at all? I mean I know suicide is a sin but why dont you rush out and embrace death ..there are more than a few professions that may get you to heaven that much sooner ...police officer in iraq, cow milker in india etc

Just for my fellow Christians I am a very strong Christian and I am not just a Christian just in case there is a God. I very strongly feel that there is a God.

oh and I'm sorry if you dont feel your faith recieves respect but that comes with the territory, I mean you cant expect us to turn a blind eye to everything your religion stands for: from attacking gay rights, to attacking personal freedoms to trying to say what the rest of society can or cant do ..I mean if anything I'm surprised there's not more of a backlash against your religion as it is far more regressive than progressive. Anyways ..you earn respect it's not automatically given so either put up a good argument or dont involve yourself ..I'm not pulling punches out of respect for your faith ..it's not like your kind respects us for our lack of faith

 

[Taboo]

WOW.
The poll reads 103 v. 17 right now. I guess I shouldnt be suprised considering whos voting, but that would definatly not be the outcome around where I live.

Maybe the other way around...

 

[CptStern]

time to move

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

I agree.
Time to move more atheists into your town.

 

[Steve]

time to move

Yeah, just run away from all your problems. You raise your kids like that, Stern?

<3

 

[Absinthe]

PS Krynn72. Before you post a long post like that has a bunch of ways to prove the bible wrong you should try to actually read the Bible and then you might understand that things actually do make sense.

No.

Stop.

 

[Kouler]

Kouler, that post was... Do you know what you're talking about?

LOL no, just wanted to entertain some people

Come on, science and religion? The two dont mix.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Come on, science and religion? The two dont mix.

That's what they say about water and oil but you can still drink them both at the same time. :thumbs:

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Oil? :x

 

[Stigmata]

That's what they say about water and oil but you can still drink them both at the same time. :thumbs:

failmetaphor is fail

 

[Steve]

Halflife2.net is 4chan.

Oh wait.

 

[Krynn72]

I am going to challenge some of you atheist. I am not going to sit here and argue with people that have no respect for what I belive in. I am not going to argue with anyone unless that will tell me that they have some respect for me and they don't think that being a Christian means you are a complete moron. If that is any of you people I want you to send me a private message and then I will actualy talk to you. If one of you do that I will have tons more respect for you and a lot of people on this forum.



PS Krynn72. Before you post a long post like that has a bunch of ways to prove the bible wrong you should try to actually read the Bible and then you might understand that things actually do make sense.

What?! You're joking right? Have you read the bible? Tell me, how many times has "god" gotten pissed off at something trivial and over reacted by murdering thousands of innocent people? Ive read enough of the bible (I was raised catholic by an Irish family) to know a bit about what we are talking about. Even as a child I could tell that everything in the bible was hypocritical, and that if god existed, I would never, ever want to meet him because he is a ****ing psychopath. Seriously, if god went to buy a gun in Virginia, he wouldn't be able to because people would recognize him as a ****ing mad lunatic who ****ing loves genocide. God's behavior is basically the complete opposite of what your religion preaches.

 

[Shift]

Thats why i dont believe in the Bible, the stories written would have been at times when no one could explain natural disasters so simply, 'God must have created that flood to punish them', 'God must have struck that lightning because he is pissed at those people', 'oh its raining again, God must be having a piss' and ludicrous things like that.

The Bible is a series of stories with moral meanings, written by people who knew nothing about the world and universe that they lived in, it cant teach christianity better than my dog could imo.

I simply believe there is a higher power, who started the creation of everything, and simply wants us live by free will and be the best that we can be, thats the only thing that stood out in the Bible for me, not to mention i find the ten commandments entirely ludicrous because it completely contradicts God's plea of everything living by free will.

I believe in something happening after death, but even so i intend to live this life to its fullest. The difference is, i dont fear death, but i certainly dont look foward to it rofl.

 

[Jintor]

For all the Atheist out there I have a question for you. How do you live from day to day without getting extremly deppresed without really having anything that motivates you. I would think being a Christian if nothing else would just be good for me just for the reason that I have somthing to be excited about. Plus if there is a God than you get to reap the reward instead of facing the consequences.

Fire and Brimstone?

People motivate me. Sometimes they're complete idiots, capable of such acts of stupidity that they astound me. Sometimes they're creatures of such beauty, of such wisdom... mainly they're in between. They're people. How would God motivate me?

It is my belief or deeply held moral conviction, if you prefer, that I can do something which might prevent a lot of people ending up as just another bunch of idiots. Where does god even come into it?

And that 'reap the consequences instead of getting the reward' talk? That's not faith. That's human nature. Right there.

 

[Operational]

I don't need God to have a full and moral life.

Plus if there is a God than you get to reap the reward instead of facing the consequences.

You need to believe in God to be afraid of not believing in him.

 

[CptStern]

Yeah, just run away from all your problems. You raise your kids like that, Stern?

<3

yes I do, when the odds are against you only a fool would stick around and take whatever may come ...example ..i'm currently looking for a new house ..one of the popular areas near everything i want also happens to be a very jewish orthodox neighbourhood ..after looking at homes in the area my wife and I decided we didnt want to live there as we would be a minority ..my kids would be a very small minority in a predominately jewish school ..even though it's public and no religion is pushed my kids would still stand out like sore thumbs ..I'd much rather live in an area that is open to people who are different ..not isolationist

sometimes moving away from a situation is the only recourse ..and in the context of this thread there is no way I'd ever allow my kids to grow up in an enviroment where secularism is rediculed and faith is put above reason ...it's just counterproductive to giving my kids a balanced and reaslitic world view

 

[15357]

God, is awesome, mainly because of his non-existance.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Yeah I don't consider myself an Atheist as such but I don't mind labelling myself as one because I don't believe in a personified god as portrayed by most major religions.

imo the big bang, the laws of physics, the chances of life itself, EVOLUTION (yes you heard me) and that weird taste in dr. pepper is evidence of god.

Haha brilliantly worded, I don't really want to contribute to this thread in any other way other than I love the Dr. Pepper statement, and in a way.. I actually believe it to be true.

 

[CptStern]

depending on your POV, Dr Pepper is also evidence of the existance of Satan ...foul stuff, tastes like fire and brimstone ..obviously created by Louis Cypher

 

[PvtRyan]

For all the Atheist out there I have a question for you. How do you live from day to day without getting extremly deppresed without really having anything that motivates you. I would think being a Christian if nothing else would just be good for me just for the reason that I have somthing to be excited about. Plus if there is a God than you get to reap the reward instead of facing the consequences.


Just for my fellow Christians I am a very strong Christian and I am not just a Christian just in case there is a God. I very strongly feel that there is a God.

What motivates me? The stuff that I like doing or stuff that I would like to do. What motivates you? Stuff that your god would like you to do?

I really, really don't get the "if you're an atheist then your life is meaningless HURRR" argument. It's the exact opposite! An atheist lives by the assumption that his life is all he has and it should be used to its fullest potential. A religious person who believes in an afterlife (specifically the Christian one) lives by the belief that this life is test to prove your worth for the next. He lives by the belief that the next life is eternal glory, so much better than this one. Logically, an atheist will value his life and that of others more than a theist.

 

[Shift]

What motivates me? The stuff that I like doing or stuff that I would like to do. What motivates you? Stuff that your god would like you to do?

I really, really don't get the "if you're an atheist then your life is meaningless HURRR" argument. It's the exact opposite! An atheist lives by the assumption that his life is all he has and it should be used to its fullest potential. A religious person who believes in an afterlife (specifically the Christian one) lives by the belief that this life is test to prove your worth for the next. He lives by the belief that the next life is eternal glory, so much better than this one. Logically, an atheist will value his life and that of others more than a theist.

your wrong im afraid, i believe in a afterlife, but i intend to live and enjoy this life to its fullest and take every opportunity that comes my way regardless

oh and i agree with the Dr. Pepper taste, its just too divine to be true

 

[CptStern]

your wrong im afraid, i believe in a afterlife, but i intend to live and enjoy this life to its fullest and take every opportunity that comes my way regardless

oh and i agree with the Dr. Pepper taste, its just too divine to be true

obviously you've been tempted by satan ..dr pepper is just another way of saying Beelzebub


but seriously I have to point out that you're not a very good christian to begin with ..no offense but you just dont act the way a christian is supposed to act ..have you had premarital sex? if yes then it's hell for you ..if and when you are married will you have sex only as a means of having children? (seeing as how kids are so freakin expensive, that limits you to about 3-4 sexual acts in a lifetime), what about eating shellfish? it's unclean, what about saying jesus ****ing h christ on a popsicle stick ..more reasons to be hell bound

my point is that a strict christian life (or most religions for that matter) prevents you from doing things others take for granted

 

[Shift]

ya tis true, thats why im a rational christian, believe in Evolution and the Big Bang etc as well as God, but dont believe in the Bible, and especially dont believe in the ten commandments.

 

[Llama]

I find it Ironic that the person telling everyone to read the bible and see how It does makes sense,

1) Is asking not to point out how it is incorrect
2) Failing to prove his own point



I can get through my life not knowing if there is an afterlife, or a god, because I can enjoy this life and when I die, I won't care, due to the fact i'm dead.

 

[CptStern]

ya tis true, thats why im a rational christian, believe in Evolution and the Big Bang etc as well as God, but dont believe in the Bible, and especially dont believe in the ten commandments.

you're the worst kind of christian (again no offense) ..you pick and choose what you wnt to follow and disregard the rest ..I mean most christians wouldnt see you as christian ..also your moderate christian faith allows for extremism ..here watch this

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Nightblade...do you have any idea what you are ****ing talking about? The bible makes sense...wtf? Religous books are the biggest pieces of shit I have ever read, scientifcally and historically inacurrate, grossly contradicting, rewritten and changed countless times and about homicidal maniacs who call themselves "forgiving gods" but commit genocide. Books that command follows to stone gays and cheeky childeren and people who have commited adultery; which also gives birth to followers who condemn stem cell research because TEH CELLS HAVE TEH SOULS AND WILL BE HURT and genetic engineering because HUMANITY IS PLAYING GOD AND ITS TEH BLASMPHEMOUS even though these treatments could save hundreds of lives. If you honsetly believe the bible makes sense then your just plain stupid.

 

[PvtRyan]

your wrong im afraid, i believe in a afterlife, but i intend to live and enjoy this life to its fullest and take every opportunity that comes my way regardless

oh and i agree with the Dr. Pepper taste, its just too divine to be true

I'm not wrong, it's just a logical deduction. If you only have one life you're logically gonna value it more than if you believe you have two lifes, of which one is eternally glorious. That you don't see your life as such doesn't say anything about my deduction but more about you.

Your happiness in this life has no meaning, all that matters is how you're gonna spend your next one: roasting in hell or in eternal happiness. If that takes suffering in this life, so be it. Your goal in this life is not to make yourself happy, but to make God happy.

For a religious person, this life is just a steppingstone to a next, much better, life.

 

[Shift]

I'm not wrong, it's just a logical deduction. If you only have one life you're logically gonna value it more than if you believe you have two lifes, of which one is eternally glorious. That you don't see your life as such doesn't say anything about my deduction but more about you.

Your happiness in this life has no meaning, all that matters is how you're gonna spend your next one: roasting in hell or in eternal happiness. If that takes suffering in this life, so be it. Your goal in this life is not to make yourself happy, but to make God happy.

For a religious person, this life is just a steppingstone to a next, much better, life.

yeah true for some people, but not for me like i said, i believe in an afterlife, but that doesn't draw me away from my attempt in making this life as awsome as it can be, this life holds huge meaning for me.

and Stern, you're right, i am not a christian, but i believe in the God that christianity worships. I believe in things like the Big Bang and evolution, but when i look to the origins of it all, then things dont make sense for me, which stimulates my dieist beliefs. There are also things that occur in this world that science cannot even attempt to explain, i can almost feel another presence within me too, like a soul.

Not to mention when i was younger and a more sterner christian, praying to God whenever i felt really depressed or down, as soon the prayer ended i always felt much better with myself. Not to mention when i pretty young once i was suffering from severe food poisoning for two weeks, the second week, day before my birthday, i felt so bad it was untrue, prayed to God the night before, asking that i be well again the next day for my birthday, when i woke i felt right as rain, i even felt much better than i did before i got ill, thats what actually stimulated my faith in the first place

I just dont think God wanted people to restrict the way they lived in this current existance by following rules of living, and taking everything word for word from a book. I choose to have my own interpretation of faith rather than following an examply of others, as that simplifies everything, sceince and faith always conflict when i look into the sterner faiths.

 

[CptStern]

yeah true for some people, but not for me like i said, i believe in an afterlife, but that doesn't draw me away from my attempt in making this life as awsome as it can be, this life holds huge meaning for me.

and Stern, you're right, i am not a christian, but i believe in the God that christianity worships. I believe in things like the Big Bang and evolution, but when i look to the origins of it all, then things dont make sense for me, which stimulates my dieist beliefs. There are also things that occur in this world that science cannot even attempt to explain, i can almost feel another presence within me too, like a soul.

but that doesnt make you a christian that just makes you a person who believes in a higher being

Not to mention when i was younger and a more sterner christian, praying to God whenever i felt really depressed or down, as soon the prayer ended i always felt much better with myself. Not to mention when i pretty young once i was suffering from severe food poisoning for two weeks, the second week, day before my birthday, i felt so bad it was untrue, prayed to God the night before, asking that i be well again the next day for my birthday, when i woke i felt right as rain, i even felt much better than i did before i got ill, thats what actually stimulated my faith in the first place.

I dont want to redicule your beliefs but that just cant be true ..I mean if it were god is pretty much an evil bastard because prayer didnt save the 322 kids in Beslan, loved ones all over the world, dogs, cats or even a gi-joe I wanted when I was 8 ...your personal experience does not prove his existance because on the flip side I'm sure there's been many a time you prayed for something that never came to be

I just dont think God wanted people to restrict the way they lived in this current existance by following rules of living, and taking everything word for word from a book. I choose to have my own interpretation of faith rather than following an examply of others, as that simplifies everything, sceince and faith always conflict when i look into the sterner faiths.

but the bible is quite clear in that it is the word of god, to followed to the letter ..there is no room for interpretation

 

[Shift]

well as much i find it shatteringly unfair that say people pray for the saftey of others in a crisis and it never comes to be, i believe its just the will of life on whats happens, i believe that certain divine interventions are the higher being stearing things on a correct course through life, that when someone dies, they were meant to die, and if the stories are true, when someone died and came back to life, it is because it was not there time, which can make a good indication of how God is letting life here run its course, but certain inverventions needs to be made to stear things on the right course.

On your last comment, well i just do no see how a book in physical form here can show us the will of God, the Bible contradicts the will of God rather than teach it imo. It talks of natural disasters and how God did them, this is because they didn't know anything about the weather and natural disasters and how they occur back then. The Bible is said teach anti-semitism, this is merely because they believed that christianity is built on morals, and homo-sexuality is impure, so obviously, God must hate it, even though, the Bible says, God wanted humans to have free will, hence if they want to gay, they can be. It contradicts itself so much its untrue, like i said in a previous post, the people who wrote the book cannot interpret christianity or the will of the God any better than a tree imo.

 

[Krynn72]

well as much i find it shatteringly unfair that say people pray for the saftey of others in a crisis and it never comes to be, i believe its just the will of life on whats happens, i believe that certain divine interventions are the higher being stearing things on a correct course through life, that when someone dies, they were meant to die, and if the stories are true, when someone died and came back to life, it is because it was not there time, which can make a good indication of how God is letting life here run its course, but certain inverventions needs to be made to stear things on the right course.

Thats some very dangerous thinking. That kind of thinking is why people can get away with unjust wars and killing of innocents by saying "its the will of god". If their enemy gets killed it is because they were "meant to die", and therefore their war is justified and legitimized by God himself.

 

[Beerdude26]

yeah true for some people, but not for me like i said, i believe in an afterlife, but that doesn't draw me away from my attempt in making this life as awsome as it can be, this life holds huge meaning for me.

and Stern, you're right, i am not a christian, but i believe in the God that christianity worships. I believe in things like the Big Bang and evolution, but when i look to the origins of it all, then things dont make sense for me, which stimulates my dieist beliefs. There are also things that occur in this world that science cannot even attempt to explain, i can almost feel another presence within me too, like a soul.

Not to mention when i was younger and a more sterner christian, praying to God whenever i felt really depressed or down, as soon the prayer ended i always felt much better with myself. Not to mention when i pretty young once i was suffering from severe food poisoning for two weeks, the second week, day before my birthday, i felt so bad it was untrue, prayed to God the night before, asking that i be well again the next day for my birthday, when i woke i felt right as rain, i even felt much better than i did before i got ill, thats what actually stimulated my faith in the first place

I just dont think God wanted people to restrict the way they lived in this current existance by following rules of living, and taking everything word for word from a book. I choose to have my own interpretation of faith rather than following an examply of others, as that simplifies everything, sceince and faith always conflict when i look into the sterner faiths.

That's exactly the thing: You like to simplify things because they make things better. Now, in your case, that's not a problem. But some people get really screwed up thoughts by simplyfying things.

This is where we step in and tell you that what you are doing isn't logical. Oversimplyfying just doesn't work most of the time. Your food poisoning? Pure coincidence. Your feeling of depression? Purely yourself. As I'm saying this, it feels as if I'm taking something away from you, something "more", that protects you. It's scary at first, but it makes you feel far more enlightened after a while. But hey, it's your choice

 

[kirovman]

Evidence suggests it will not contract, yet continue to expand.
And the idea of atoms eventually separating comes right out of "A Brief History of Time" by Steven Hawking.

I dunno where you got that, looking at A Brief History of Time, I see no references to it. However I have a book which basically presents the same information as ABHOT (citing it also), called "The Origin of the Universe" byJohn D. Barrow, which explains:

In the movie Annie Hill, Woody Allen is found on his analyst's couch telling of his anxiety about the expansion of the universe: "I'm expanding, you're expanding, we're all expanding."

Thankfully, he is wrong. We are not expanding. Nor is the Earth. Nor is the solar system. Nor in fact is the Milky Way galaxy. Nor even those aggregates of thousands of galaxies that we call "galaxy clusters". These collections of matter are all bound together by chemical and gravitational forces - forces that are stronger than the force of the expansion.

For example the Andromeda galaxy is moving towards us, because the gravitational attraction between it and the Milky way is much larger than the force of expansion.

Atoms expanding in that manner would defy the quantum theory of the atom, as well as classical laws of physics.

Since you've got A Brief History of Time, you should understand my first point about the North Pole analogy, Hawking describes it exactly in his book. However Stephen Hawking's book is not a Physics paper, it is a layman book on his findings over the years, and as such will not be subject to the rigorous accuracy as a peer reviewed research paper would be.

Stephen Hawking is an excellent mathematical physicist, but he is not an authority. He is fallible.

The site you give doesn't really appear like a good source.

Seems pretty good to me. It's a .edu site, and the papers cited are fairly sound.

 

[Tyguy]

I dunno where you got that, looking at A Brief History of Time, I see no references to it. However I have a book which basically presents the same information as ABHOT (citing it also), called "The Origin of the Universe" byJohn D. Barrow, which explains:

Atoms expanding in that manner would defy the quantum theory of the atom, as well as classical laws of physics.

Found this in about 2 seconds via google:

Meanwhile, other physicists and mathematicians working on Einstein's theory of gravity discovered the equations had some solutions that described an expanding universe. In these solutions, the light coming from distant objects would be redshifted as it traveled through the expanding universe. The redshift would increase with increasing distance to the object.

Another

What is the currently most accepted model for the Universe?

The current best fit model is a flat ΛCDM Big Bang model where the expansion of the Universe is accelerating, and the age of the Universe is 13.7 billion years.

And another...

Why do we think that the expansion of the Universe is accelerating?

The evidence for an accelerating expansion comes from observations of the brightness of distant supernovae. We observe the redshift of a supernova which tells us by what the factor the Universe has expanded since the supernova exploded. This factor is (1+z), where z is the redshift. But in order to determine the expected brightness of the supernova, we need to know its distance now. If the expansion of the Universe is accelerating due to a cosmological constant, then the expansion was slower in the past, and thus the time required to expand by a given factor is longer, and the distance NOW is larger. But if the expansion is decelerating, it was faster in the past and the distance NOW is smaller. Thus for an accelerating expansion the supernovae at high redshifts will appear to be fainter than they would for a decelerating expansion because their current distances are larger. Note that these distances are all proportional to the age of the Universe [or 1/Ho], but this dependence cancels out when the brightness of a nearby supernova at z close to 0.1 is compared to a distant supernova with z close to 1.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#bestfit

 

[DEATHMASTER]

edit: nvm, internet proved my teacher made a big typo.

 

[Cole]

isn't the earth approx 4.X TRILLION years old?

Google and learn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
It's thought to be around 4.x BILLION.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

too late

 

[Tyguy]

Trillion!?!? thats almost......a billion!